[gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[drew]

I have a system on an Abit motherboard with the Nvidia GeForce 4 chipset.  
There are two SATA disks in a hardward stripe configuration using the 
controller built in to the motherboard.  The machine and disks were used as a 
Windows XP workstation.  Now that Windows installation is hosed up and I'm 
using the opportunity to covert this machine to a Gentoo desktop.

However there is some data on the drive that I'd like to recover before 
blowing the disk away.  I booted the latest Knoppix dated 9/23/05 and see two 
icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for sda the other for sdb.  I can 
not mount either.  I assume this is because Knoppix is seeing each drive 
individually instead of the one logical striped drive it is.

Is there some magic I can perform at the boot prompt to get Knoppix to see the 
two individual drives as one logical striped drive?  I can't recover the data 
from booting Windows because it's all screwed up and reboots itself shortly 
after logon.

Thanks,

Drew
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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Drew Tomlinson]

On Saturday 10 December 2005 12:08 pm, drew@mykitchentable.net wrote:
> I have a system on an Abit motherboard with the Nvidia GeForce 4
> chipset. 

Make that an NForce 4 chipset.  Got confused between graphics and 
motherboards.  :)

> here are two SATA disks in a hardward stripe 
> configuration using the controller built in to the motherboard. 
> The machine and disks were used as a Windows XP workstation.  Now
> that Windows installation is hosed up and I'm using the opportunity
> to covert this machine to a Gentoo desktop.
>
> However there is some data on the drive that I'd like to recover
> before blowing the disk away.  I booted the latest Knoppix dated
> 9/23/05 and see two icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for
> sda the other for sdb.  I can not mount either.  I assume this is
> because Knoppix is seeing each drive individually instead of the
> one logical striped drive it is.
>
> Is there some magic I can perform at the boot prompt to get Knoppix
> to see the two individual drives as one logical striped drive?  I
> can't recover the data from booting Windows because it's all
> screwed up and reboots itself shortly after logon.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drew
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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Nick Smith]

On 12/10/05, drew@mykitchentable.net <drew@mykitchentable.net> wrote:
> I have a system on an Abit motherboard with the Nvidia GeForce 4 chipset.
> There are two SATA disks in a hardward stripe configuration using the
> controller built in to the motherboard.  The machine and disks were used as a
> Windows XP workstation.  Now that Windows installation is hosed up and I'm
> using the opportunity to covert this machine to a Gentoo desktop.
>
> However there is some data on the drive that I'd like to recover before
> blowing the disk away.  I booted the latest Knoppix dated 9/23/05 and see two
> icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for sda the other for sdb.  I can
> not mount either.  I assume this is because Knoppix is seeing each drive
> individually instead of the one logical striped drive it is.
>
> Is there some magic I can perform at the boot prompt to get Knoppix to see the
> two individual drives as one logical striped drive?  I can't recover the data
> from booting Windows because it's all screwed up and reboots itself shortly
> after logon.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drew
> --
> gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
what about safe mode? or an overlay install? or even the recovery
console?  i know that doesnt answer your knoppix question but i deal
with that crap everyday and i have tried using knoppix a few times and
it had problems with the ntfs partitions.  where would you put the
data once you got it? its booted off the cd, so even if it was a
burner how would you burn something when the drive is being used? a
flash drive possibly.  but probably the easiest way to get that data
(sorry to say) is get winders functioning again, get your data, and
then blow it away.  which rises a question, if its a hardware raid
stripe, i dont think knoppix should be seeing both drives, i thought
the hardware controller told it what to see, so it should only see the
one raid device, at least that was my take on it.  hope some of this
helps.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Stroller]

On Dec 10, 2005, at 5:08 pm, drew@mykitchentable.net wrote:
>
> I have a system on an Abit motherboard with the Nvidia GeForce 4 
> chipset.
> There are two SATA disks in a hardward stripe configuration using the
> controller built in to the motherboard.
> ...
> I booted the latest Knoppix dated 9/23/05 and see two
> icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for sda the other for sdb.  I 
> can
> not mount either.  I assume this is because Knoppix is seeing each 
> drive
> individually instead of the one logical striped drive it is.

I'm no expert on this, but I believe that many ATA "hardware" RAID 
arrangements in fact just use their Windoze drivers to do software 
RAID. I'd do some research via Googling the chipset &/or board's model 
number if I were you.

> Is there some magic I can perform at the boot prompt to get Knoppix to 
> see the
> two individual drives as one logical striped drive?  I can't recover 
> the data
> from booting Windows because it's all screwed up and reboots itself 
> shortly
> after logon.

If my guess is correct then the best thing might be to install Windows 
on a spare drive & boot from that to see the RAID as one. You might try 
booting with a Windows CD & see if the RAID is recognised as a single 
partition... if you get the option to do a repair install you _should_ 
be able to get an at-least-mostly-working Windows install & all your 
data intact. Recover the data to a portable drive & format.

Stroller.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:08:50 -0500, drew@mykitchentable.net wrote:


> However there is some data on the drive that I'd like to recover before 
> blowing the disk away.  I booted the latest Knoppix dated 9/23/05 and
> see two icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for sda the other for
> sdb.  I can not mount either.  I assume this is because Knoppix is
> seeing each drive individually instead of the one logical striped drive
> it is.

There used to be problems accessing RAID arrays from Knoppix, and LVM
still doesn't work AFAIK. The solution is to use a different live CD. As
you plan to install Gentoo, it seems reasonable to assume you have a
Gentoo  CD, so try that. The Recovery Is Possible! live CD also worked
with my RAID setup.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I am in total control, but don't tell my wife.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Drew Tomlinson]

On 12/10/2005 1:04 PM Nick Smith wrote:

>On 12/10/05, drew@mykitchentable.net <drew@mykitchentable.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>I have a system on an Abit motherboard with the Nvidia GeForce 4 chipset.
>>There are two SATA disks in a hardward stripe configuration using the
>>controller built in to the motherboard.  The machine and disks were used as a
>>Windows XP workstation.  Now that Windows installation is hosed up and I'm
>>using the opportunity to covert this machine to a Gentoo desktop.
>>
>>However there is some data on the drive that I'd like to recover before
>>blowing the disk away.  I booted the latest Knoppix dated 9/23/05 and see two
>>icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for sda the other for sdb.  I can
>>not mount either.  I assume this is because Knoppix is seeing each drive
>>individually instead of the one logical striped drive it is.
>>
>>Is there some magic I can perform at the boot prompt to get Knoppix to see the
>>two individual drives as one logical striped drive?  I can't recover the data
>>from booting Windows because it's all screwed up and reboots itself shortly
>>after logon.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Drew
>>--
>>gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>what about safe mode? 
>

Safe mode with networking still leaves me without networking which I need

>or an overlay install? 
>

Tried that.  Still hosed

>or even the recovery
>console?  
>

Never had any luck with this.  Maybe I just don't know how to use it?

>i know that doesnt answer your knoppix question but i deal
>with that crap everyday and i have tried using knoppix a few times and
>it had problems with the ntfs partitions.  where would you put the
>data once you got it? 
>

Was hoping to mount an smbfs filesystem and transfer it to another 
machine.  Hence the need for networking above.

>its booted off the cd, so even if it was a
>burner how would you burn something when the drive is being used? a
>flash drive possibly.  but probably the easiest way to get that data
>(sorry to say) is get winders functioning again, get your data, and
>then blow it away.  which rises a question, if its a hardware raid
>stripe, i dont think knoppix should be seeing both drives, i thought
>the hardware controller told it what to see, so it should only see the
>one raid device, at least that was my take on it.  
>

This is what I thought too.

>hope some of this
>helps.
>  
>

At least I know I'm not the only one confused.  :)

Thanks,

Drew

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Drew Tomlinson]

On 12/10/2005 1:17 PM Stroller wrote:

>
> On Dec 10, 2005, at 5:08 pm, drew@mykitchentable.net wrote:
>
>>
>> I have a system on an Abit motherboard with the Nvidia GeForce 4 
>> chipset.
>> There are two SATA disks in a hardward stripe configuration using the
>> controller built in to the motherboard.
>> ...
>> I booted the latest Knoppix dated 9/23/05 and see two
>> icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for sda the other for sdb.  
>> I can
>> not mount either.  I assume this is because Knoppix is seeing each drive
>> individually instead of the one logical striped drive it is.
>
>
> I'm no expert on this, but I believe that many ATA "hardware" RAID 
> arrangements in fact just use their Windoze drivers to do software 
> RAID. I'd do some research via Googling the chipset &/or board's model 
> number if I were you.


I haven't found anything yet but then I haven't looked real hard.  
However I suspect this does not rely on any Windows drivers as the 
controller is managed long before Windows boots.  Just after POST and 
before the OS starts, a brief message showing the controller is 
displayed.  By pressing F10, I can manage my stripe.  Much like I see 
most SCSI cards.

>
>> Is there some magic I can perform at the boot prompt to get Knoppix 
>> to see the
>> two individual drives as one logical striped drive?  I can't recover 
>> the data
>> from booting Windows because it's all screwed up and reboots itself 
>> shortly
>> after logon.
>
>
> If my guess is correct then the best thing might be to install Windows 
> on a spare drive & boot from that to see the RAID as one. You might 
> try booting with a Windows CD & see if the RAID is recognised as a 
> single partition... if you get the option to do a repair install you 
> _should_ be able to get an at-least-mostly-working Windows install & 
> all your data intact. Recover the data to a portable drive & format.


Thanks.  I tried an overlay install again and things seem to be going 
well.  Copying data now.

Thanks for your ideas!

Drew

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Drew Tomlinson]

On 12/10/2005 1:50 PM Neil Bothwick wrote:

>On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:08:50 -0500, drew@mykitchentable.net wrote:
>
>
>  
>
>>However there is some data on the drive that I'd like to recover before 
>>blowing the disk away.  I booted the latest Knoppix dated 9/23/05 and
>>see two icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for sda the other for
>>sdb.  I can not mount either.  I assume this is because Knoppix is
>>seeing each drive individually instead of the one logical striped drive
>>it is.
>>    
>>
>
>There used to be problems accessing RAID arrays from Knoppix, and LVM
>still doesn't work AFAIK. The solution is to use a different live CD. As
>you plan to install Gentoo, it seems reasonable to assume you have a
>Gentoo  CD, so try that. The Recovery Is Possible! live CD also worked
>with my RAID setup.
>  
>

Thanks for the encouragement.  I attempted a Windows overlay install 
again and this time it seems to have worked!  However I'll keep the live 
CD in mind for future emergencies.  I started with Knoppix because a 
previous Gentoo installation I did wouldn't work with the live CD.  I 
had an Advansys SCSI card in that box which wasn't supported on the live 
CD but was supported with Knoppix.

Thanks,

Drew

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Stroller]

On Dec 10, 2005, at 9:04 pm, Nick Smith wrote:
>
> ... i know that doesnt answer your knoppix question but i deal
> with that crap everyday and i have tried using knoppix a few times and
> it had problems with the ntfs partitions.  where would you put the
> data once you got it? its booted off the cd, so even if it was a
> burner how would you burn something when the drive is being used? a
> flash drive possibly.  but probably the easiest way to get that data
> (sorry to say) is get winders functioning again, get your data, and
> then blow it away.

That's funny - I deal with Windows problems all day & everyday & I 
prefer Knoppix for getting data off failed Windows installations.

I've never experienced any problems reading from NTFS partitions and 
prefer to use that than having to worry about a Windows install 
forgetting to copy "hidden" files (such as Outlook Application Data or 
Outlook Distress Identities) or something. I have confidence that if I 
do `cp -rvf * /to/somewhere/` then every file will be copied.

I use a portable USB hard-drive which Knoppix recognises & makes a 
/mnt/uba1 (or /mnt/sda1 if I connect it with firewire) entry for and 
just boot with `knoppix 2`.

It's interesting how different people do the same thing different ways,

Stroller.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Shawn Haggett]

Drew Tomlinson wrote:

> On 12/10/2005 1:17 PM Stroller wrote:
>
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2005, at 5:08 pm, drew@mykitchentable.net wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have a system on an Abit motherboard with the Nvidia GeForce 4 
>>> chipset.
>>> There are two SATA disks in a hardward stripe configuration using the
>>> controller built in to the motherboard.
>>> ...
>>> I booted the latest Knoppix dated 9/23/05 and see two
>>> icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for sda the other for sdb.  
>>> I can
>>> not mount either.  I assume this is because Knoppix is seeing each 
>>> drive
>>> individually instead of the one logical striped drive it is.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm no expert on this, but I believe that many ATA "hardware" RAID 
>> arrangements in fact just use their Windoze drivers to do software 
>> RAID. I'd do some research via Googling the chipset &/or board's 
>> model number if I were you.
>
>
>
> I haven't found anything yet but then I haven't looked real hard.  
> However I suspect this does not rely on any Windows drivers as the 
> controller is managed long before Windows boots.  Just after POST and 
> before the OS starts, a brief message showing the controller is 
> displayed.  By pressing F10, I can manage my stripe.  Much like I see 
> most SCSI cards.
>
Have a look at:
http://people.redhat.com/~heinzm/sw/dmraid/
I bought an ABit motherboard a while ago with a SIL3114 "raid 
controller". While it gives you an option at boot to manage the drives, 
all this does is configure the drivers so the software can see them as a 
raid set, i.e. it's not true hardware raid.

Shawn Haggett
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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Drew Tomlinson]

On 12/10/2005 3:47 PM Shawn Haggett wrote:

> Drew Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> On 12/10/2005 1:17 PM Stroller wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 10, 2005, at 5:08 pm, drew@mykitchentable.net wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have a system on an Abit motherboard with the Nvidia GeForce 4 
>>>> chipset.
>>>> There are two SATA disks in a hardward stripe configuration using the
>>>> controller built in to the motherboard.
>>>> ...
>>>> I booted the latest Knoppix dated 9/23/05 and see two
>>>> icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for sda the other for 
>>>> sdb.  I can
>>>> not mount either.  I assume this is because Knoppix is seeing each 
>>>> drive
>>>> individually instead of the one logical striped drive it is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm no expert on this, but I believe that many ATA "hardware" RAID 
>>> arrangements in fact just use their Windoze drivers to do software 
>>> RAID. I'd do some research via Googling the chipset &/or board's 
>>> model number if I were you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I haven't found anything yet but then I haven't looked real hard.  
>> However I suspect this does not rely on any Windows drivers as the 
>> controller is managed long before Windows boots.  Just after POST and 
>> before the OS starts, a brief message showing the controller is 
>> displayed.  By pressing F10, I can manage my stripe.  Much like I see 
>> most SCSI cards.
>>
> Have a look at:
> http://people.redhat.com/~heinzm/sw/dmraid/
> I bought an ABit motherboard a while ago with a SIL3114 "raid 
> controller". While it gives you an option at boot to manage the 
> drives, all this does is configure the drivers so the software can see 
> them as a raid set, i.e. it's not true hardware raid.
>
> Shawn Haggett


Thanks for that info.

Drew

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Re: [gentoo-user] Knoppix Install Method

[Jim Burwell]

Drew Tomlinson wrote:

> On 12/10/2005 1:17 PM Stroller wrote:
>
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2005, at 5:08 pm, drew@mykitchentable.net wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have a system on an Abit motherboard with the Nvidia GeForce 4 
>>> chipset.
>>> There are two SATA disks in a hardward stripe configuration using the
>>> controller built in to the motherboard.
>>> ...
>>> I booted the latest Knoppix dated 9/23/05 and see two
>>> icons on the desktop for my drives.  One for sda the other for sdb.  
>>> I can
>>> not mount either.  I assume this is because Knoppix is seeing each 
>>> drive
>>> individually instead of the one logical striped drive it is.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm no expert on this, but I believe that many ATA "hardware" RAID 
>> arrangements in fact just use their Windoze drivers to do software 
>> RAID. I'd do some research via Googling the chipset &/or board's 
>> model number if I were you.
>
>
>
> I haven't found anything yet but then I haven't looked real hard.  
> However I suspect this does not rely on any Windows drivers as the 
> controller is managed long before Windows boots.  Just after POST and 
> before the OS starts, a brief message showing the controller is 
> displayed.  By pressing F10, I can manage my stripe.  Much like I see 
> most SCSI cards.


Stroller is right on this one.  Most built-in motherboard 'RAID chips' 
and inexpensive RAID cards are simply software RAID with a BIOS front 
end that can be used to create/manage RAID volumes composed of attached 
disks.  The firmware for these RAID chips/cards simply scans each disk 
for its proprietery RAID metadata, and presents any found volumes as a 
drive to the BIOS.  They also often detect problems with the arrays 
(missing components, etc) and present the user with boot time options to 
deal with these situations (boot in degraded mode, replace missing 
component and sync, etc).  But the actual block-by-block RAID operations 
(writing mirror blocks, computing/reading/writing parity data, degraded 
operation, etc) are done in a device driver under the OS, once booted.  
The CPU is doing all the RAID heavy lifting with these arrangements.  I 
see these sorts of RAID solutions as merely glorified IDE or SATA 
controllers with some advanced firmware in front of them.

True hardware RAID do these block-by-block operations on a dedicated 
controller, often with some sort of NVRAM write-behind/read-ahead cache 
between the OS and the volume, which can survive sudden power 
loss/crashes, etc.  The RAID volumes presented to the boot time 
environment and OS look like regular drives.  The RAID controller 
hardware does the RAID heavy-lifting (parity computation, re-syncs, 
etc), offloading them from the CPU.  Obviously these hardware RAID 
solutions are more sophisticated than the cheap software RAID 
arrangements, which is why presently, you won't find one for less than 
about $400 (USD), where you can find the software RAID cards for < $100 
(USD).

Both types seem to present a similar user interface to the user, which 
is cause for confusion.  Also, the vendors of the cheap RAID solutions 
don't go out of their way to inform the customers of the differences 
between their stuff and the hardware RAID solutions, of course, which is 
more cause for confusion.  :-)


>>> Is there some magic I can perform at the boot prompt to get Knoppix 
>>> to see the
>>> two individual drives as one logical striped drive?  I can't recover 
>>> the data
>>> from booting Windows because it's all screwed up and reboots itself 
>>> shortly
>>> after logon.
>>
>>
>>
>> If my guess is correct then the best thing might be to install 
>> Windows on a spare drive & boot from that to see the RAID as one. You 
>> might try booting with a Windows CD & see if the RAID is recognised 
>> as a single partition... if you get the option to do a repair install 
>> you _should_ be able to get an at-least-mostly-working Windows 
>> install & all your data intact. Recover the data to a portable drive 
>> & format.
>
>
>
> Thanks.  I tried an overlay install again and things seem to be going 
> well.  Copying data now.
>
> Thanks for your ideas!
>
> Drew
>

As mentioned by another poster in this thread, there is also the 
somewhat too generically named 'dmraid'.  (When I first stumbled across 
this, I thought it was some LVM2 native replacement for the good 'ole 
Linux RAID [md] devices.  I personally think it should be given a more 
specific name like 'metaraid' or 'omniraid' or soemthing like that, but 
I digress). 

You may have been able to use this to mount your striped volume.

 From my admittedly brief reading, dmraid appears to be a metadata 
agnostic device mapper based software RAID driver.  That is, it can 
understand and operate RAID volumes created using many vendors' software 
RAID chips and cards and their proprietary metadata formats by itself, 
without the need to install drivers from individual vendors.  Pretty cool!

However, the userspace tools for dmraid are presently keyword masked in 
gentoo, and the somewhat sparse documentation for dmaid seems to 
indicate that it's not quite ready for prime time yet.  Looks 
interesting though.


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