From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 107DB1381FB for ; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 16:33:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 76AEF21C210; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 16:32:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nm4.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (nm4.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.146.182.225]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2A5521C20C for ; Thu, 27 Dec 2012 16:30:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [217.146.183.209] by nm4.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2012 16:30:48 -0000 Received: from [77.238.184.71] by tm2.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2012 16:30:48 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp140.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Dec 2012 16:30:48 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1356625848; bh=EzC1Cdno7g+usvb6XIgitRJxsGqa6OjzLhahwotsODs=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:Message-ID:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:X-Mailer:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=TRMQmLqBY2tMLRh3MyDB3WeLC/FT0FFqiBEtgCdFh+VCIRLlL2Jdk7kYwVBFut/N92fj6PvAZ+h+kMV0pKVGcv9kOP4xxFY6hwrJ62nwwOK0LgCIftiWfipOgJmcjH8zwpyKlmh0NI8qLZyc+/B+NvwIoRDZVhwPBd29E9xrvgI= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 420952.15724.bm@smtp140.mail.ukl.yahoo.com Message-ID: <420952.15724.bm@smtp140.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: wt1BfukVM1lIJol4VeoEjYn9Qt.ebMEmNFY4iAzocCk2jUA Fz5EtXogCuPG7gvfy1SEg3X0R86tlPBUmbLJvip_A5LFdwdC.9sd5gB.dy8S vXLKXQk7pSmemVYkNG7tk2oLzwAQvJ_PUnfqSRBRwWKs2Gnb_7W3NdKtNO3t G0i5gDNtKg64JlNdzcVnh0eUZYoIislTRGcDpdxlEkN0kI7DiIILhcgSIjJi pStEXlmcDG9FGfW8uEy2pWB77srQbzPicAe_Ptqxf_nGTynhHxhgaBgPjR8W KRN3l8bCVBz1P6ZeBY0awsdruTvsJ6oX9Ji46A1MFt6D38d7iy_lOwbGNd_q DoDHYLn2HtafPuWeBmyrxxyya9snFXBQiZPCmHgC3CcjxDdHWsMzC_ooX2SE CM8j.fS9YQcXXJdW_Z.53R0K23M6PuHZTXhiDKqsqUUg- X-Yahoo-SMTP: UxXxlhuswBC4wbdewolpwSmT1iJVzQ-- Received: from sprat (ma1l1ists@92.27.156.6 with login) by smtp140.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Dec 2012 16:30:48 +0000 GMT Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 16:29:14 +0000 From: Kevin Chadwick To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Anyone switched to eudev yet? -> what was wron with SysVInit? In-Reply-To: References: <50CB1942.3020900@gmail.com> <20121216171043.71084070@khamul.example.com> <20121217104621.735bf43a@khamul.example.com> <20121218163332.7956f31a@khamul.example.com> <87txrd6pb3.fsf@ist.utl.pt> <20121223182037.1553813f@khamul.example.com> <87bodk7lb6.fsf@ist.utl.pt> <20121224085528.56f535ec@khamul.example.com> <50D85167.9060309@gmail.com> <20121224204817.335033c6@khamul.example.com> <50D957F0.1060406@gmail.com> <20121226221950.04342909@kc-sys.chadwicks.me.uk> X-Mailer: KeVs Mailer Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: c9f6fa54-c86e-4e9c-9325-7910864f95ab X-Archives-Hash: bb3f8ae9b1672a4d0c6db56c0df03a93 > * Finally, and what I think is the most fundamental difference between > systemd and almost any other init system: The service unit files in > systemd are *declarative*; you tell the daemon *what* to do, not *how* > to do it. If the service files are shell scripts (like in > OpenRC/SysV), everything can spiral out of control really easily. And > it usually does (again, look at sshd; and that one is actully nicely > written, there are all kind of monsters out there abusing the power > that shell gives you). > > Then Kevin started to suggest that I know nothing about init systems, > and I responded in kind. I did not and apologise if you took offense. I said perhaps badly that based on this posting, you don't have a great deal of experience in init systems. To me, your comment demonstrated that you don't on the vast plethora of init systems which all actually accomplish the same thing daemon wise just with varying reliability and functionality surrounding the process of doing so. No init system can tell a daemon how to do anything. So your comment. What to do, how to do actually has nothing to do with systemd. What does is having to learn a new more restrictive non intuitive and non externally useful or non universal *declarative* language. Like polkit/pkexecs javascript vs sudo. I will take sudoers every time and for good reason. "Shell scripts usually spiral out of control" is just utter FUD. I do realise you didn't originate this FUD, but it shouldn't be spread. Yes some corner case wants in init that some thought impossible in shell can get complex by scripting them but a small c tool following the unix philosophy simply becomes a shell command potentially useful in even unforeseeable cases. We are dealing with simple options meant for admins here. As I said OpenBSDs scripts are usually rediculously simple and should often really be called commands. As others have said the argument of function being in the scripts rather than the daemon is an irrelevance to using systemd. Systemd may try to become the whole OS but I'm fairly sure it hasn't plagiarised the c code to check and deal with ssh keys yet. That is rightly the job of the aptly named ssh-keygen and IMO some very simple shell code. The arch sshd script is only 44 lines and includes more than that to make the output colourful. The gentoo sshd script is actually simple too and doesn't do anything most of the time and is easily modifiable in absolutely predictable ways. -- _______________________________________________________________________ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) _______________________________________________________________________