* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-29 16:49 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2017-08-30 11:25 ` Walter Dnes
2017-08-30 22:14 ` Alan McKinnon
2017-08-30 22:13 ` Alan McKinnon
2017-08-31 2:16 ` Dale
2 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Walter Dnes @ 2017-08-30 11:25 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 09:49:58AM -0700, Rich Freeman wrote
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Another example is LVM. You or I might really need it (debatable now we
> > have ZFS) but the average user has no concept of what it might be, or
> > care. So why do Ubuntu installers shove it in your face as something
> > really cool that you should really really use? Because the author of the
> > installer thinks it's really cool, that's why.
> >
>
> Maybe.
>
> Or maybe because when that computer's hard drive starts getting full
> and you add a new hard drive, if you're using lvm with a few commands
> you can make your /home expand across both drives, while with straight
> partitions that is a lot more work.
1) I don't recall having added a hard drive for many years.
2) How difficult is it to symlink directories?
--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-30 11:25 ` Walter Dnes
@ 2017-08-30 22:14 ` Alan McKinnon
2017-08-31 6:57 ` Walter Dnes
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2017-08-30 22:14 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 30/08/2017 13:25, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 09:49:58AM -0700, Rich Freeman wrote
>> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Another example is LVM. You or I might really need it (debatable now we
>>> have ZFS) but the average user has no concept of what it might be, or
>>> care. So why do Ubuntu installers shove it in your face as something
>>> really cool that you should really really use? Because the author of the
>>> installer thinks it's really cool, that's why.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe.
>>
>> Or maybe because when that computer's hard drive starts getting full
>> and you add a new hard drive, if you're using lvm with a few commands
>> you can make your /home expand across both drives, while with straight
>> partitions that is a lot more work.
>
> 1) I don't recall having added a hard drive for many years.
>
> 2) How difficult is it to symlink directories?
Oh that part is easy. One command, ln, with the option -s.
Now go and get your grandma to do it, and come tell us what happened.
--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-30 22:14 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2017-08-31 6:57 ` Walter Dnes
0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Walter Dnes @ 2017-08-31 6:57 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:14:54AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote
> On 30/08/2017 13:25, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 09:49:58AM -0700, Rich Freeman wrote
> >> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Another example is LVM. You or I might really need it (debatable now we
> >>> have ZFS) but the average user has no concept of what it might be, or
> >>> care. So why do Ubuntu installers shove it in your face as something
> >>> really cool that you should really really use? Because the author of the
> >>> installer thinks it's really cool, that's why.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Maybe.
> >>
> >> Or maybe because when that computer's hard drive starts getting full
> >> and you add a new hard drive, if you're using lvm with a few commands
> >> you can make your /home expand across both drives, while with straight
> >> partitions that is a lot more work.
> >
> > 1) I don't recall having added a hard drive for many years.
> >
> > 2) How difficult is it to symlink directories?
>
> Oh that part is easy. One command, ln, with the option -s.
>
> Now go and get your grandma to do it, and come tell us what happened.
Now go and get your grandma to find and buy the right type of internal
drive for her computer (i.e. with the right type of connector), install
it into the drive bay, and adjust /etc/fstab accordingly, and come tell
us what happened.
--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-29 16:49 ` Rich Freeman
2017-08-30 11:25 ` Walter Dnes
@ 2017-08-30 22:13 ` Alan McKinnon
2017-08-30 22:39 ` Rich Freeman
2017-08-31 2:16 ` Dale
2 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Alan McKinnon @ 2017-08-30 22:13 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 29/08/2017 18:49, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Another example is LVM. You or I might really need it (debatable now we
>> have ZFS) but the average user has no concept of what it might be, or
>> care. So why do Ubuntu installers shove it in your face as something
>> really cool that you should really really use? Because the author of the
>> installer thinks it's really cool, that's why.
>>
>
> Maybe.
>
> Or maybe because when that computer's hard drive starts getting full
> and you add a new hard drive, if you're using lvm with a few commands
> you can make your /home expand across both drives, while with straight
> partitions that is a lot more work.
>
> There really is no reason not to use some kind of volume management
> solution these days, whether that is zfs/btrfs, or lvm. When your
> data is on lvm it is MUCH easier to move it around than if you just
> put it directly on drive partitions.
>
> Arguably you want more flexibility around adding/removing drives on
> the desktop than in the enterprise, because desktop users don't add
> and remove drives in sets of 5-6. This is why I think btrfs is
> actually superior to zfs conceptually on the desktop (setting aside
> the fact that it will tend to eat your data) - the flexibility matters
> more on the small scale because you want to go from a 3-disk RAID5 to
> a 4-disk RAID5.
Yes, I know what LVM is for and how to drive it. I think it's wonderful
software for what it was designed to do, and it's "does what it says on
the box" score is way up there with much other good stuff.
But I'm not talking about it for users like you and I.
I've said over and over in this thread about regular users and you seem
to be missing that part; it's the entirety of everything I'm saying
here. I didn't say LVM shouldn't be available, I said that installers
shouldn't put it up front and centre in the user's face claiming that
it's awesome.
Your average user has no idea what volume management even is and are
completely lost when it comes up. They just have no mental image of what
it even could be and a tool that is not understood and not used is not
worth installing.
--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-30 22:13 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2017-08-30 22:39 ` Rich Freeman
2017-08-31 16:41 ` Dale
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2017-08-30 22:39 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:13 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> But I'm not talking about it for users like you and I.
> I've said over and over in this thread about regular users and you seem
> to be missing that part; it's the entirety of everything I'm saying
> here. I didn't say LVM shouldn't be available, I said that installers
> shouldn't put it up front and centre in the user's face claiming that
> it's awesome.
>
> Your average user has no idea what volume management even is and are
> completely lost when it comes up. They just have no mental image of what
> it even could be and a tool that is not understood and not used is not
> worth installing.
>
And yet most Ubuntu users who have no idea what volume management are
running just fine with it all the same, and at some point if they ever
need to move things around it will make life that much easier for
them.
The fact that they've had no issues running this as their default
configuration demonstrates that it isn't unsuitable for "regular
users." I'm well aware of the argument you're making. I simply
disagree with it, as apparently do the maintainers of Ubuntu and the
businessmen making money off of it. Decisions on a
commercially-backed distro generally don't come down to the whim of
one person, at least not if they actually cause problems.
As far as symlinks go - they're a royal pain in the rear as they force
you to micromanage what ends up on which disk, and then when your
convoluted rat's nest of symlinks starts to become a problem it
becomes that much harder to fix it. Symlinks and mountpoints used to
be the only tool in the toolbox, and to this day half of your OS is in
/usr and half isn't as a result. :)
Volume management is a best practice, and it is right for Ubuntu to
make it a default for those who don't understand the pros and
virtually non-existant cons.
--
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-30 22:39 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2017-08-31 16:41 ` Dale
2017-08-31 17:30 ` Rich Freeman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2017-08-31 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:13 PM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> But I'm not talking about it for users like you and I.
>> I've said over and over in this thread about regular users and you seem
>> to be missing that part; it's the entirety of everything I'm saying
>> here. I didn't say LVM shouldn't be available, I said that installers
>> shouldn't put it up front and centre in the user's face claiming that
>> it's awesome.
>>
>> Your average user has no idea what volume management even is and are
>> completely lost when it comes up. They just have no mental image of what
>> it even could be and a tool that is not understood and not used is not
>> worth installing.
>>
> And yet most Ubuntu users who have no idea what volume management are
> running just fine with it all the same, and at some point if they ever
> need to move things around it will make life that much easier for
> them.
>
> The fact that they've had no issues running this as their default
> configuration demonstrates that it isn't unsuitable for "regular
> users." I'm well aware of the argument you're making. I simply
> disagree with it, as apparently do the maintainers of Ubuntu and the
> businessmen making money off of it. Decisions on a
> commercially-backed distro generally don't come down to the whim of
> one person, at least not if they actually cause problems.
>
> As far as symlinks go - they're a royal pain in the rear as they force
> you to micromanage what ends up on which disk, and then when your
> convoluted rat's nest of symlinks starts to become a problem it
> becomes that much harder to fix it. Symlinks and mountpoints used to
> be the only tool in the toolbox, and to this day half of your OS is in
> /usr and half isn't as a result. :)
>
> Volume management is a best practice, and it is right for Ubuntu to
> make it a default for those who don't understand the pros and
> virtually non-existant cons.
>
The problem is, if the hard drives fills up, most won't know that they
can use LVM to expand it by adding a new drive. Since they don't know
what LVM is, they don't know about the option they have and won't use it
since they don't know it exists. Using LVM isn't the complete answer.
Knowing what it is and what it does is what completes the answer to the
problem. If the user doesn't know what LVM is, then they will be in the
same situation as they would be if it wasn't used at all. So, using LVM
or not, they are no better off in reality.
Most people have no idea what goes on inside their computer. All they
know is, clicking that Firefox/Chrome/Seamonkey/etc icon opens a web
browser and makes Facebook/email/etc work. Sad but some of my own
family/friends are like that.
Dale
:-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-31 16:41 ` Dale
@ 2017-08-31 17:30 ` Rich Freeman
2017-08-31 19:25 ` Dale
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2017-08-31 17:30 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The problem is, if the hard drives fills up, most won't know that they
> can use LVM to expand it by adding a new drive. Since they don't know
> what LVM is, they don't know about the option they have and won't use it
> since they don't know it exists.
Honestly, I'm not sure how many of these users will be installing
Ubuntu in the first place.
However, if they do use LVM and they end up asking somebody
knowledgeable for help, that person will be very happy to find that
the system has LVM installed.
If there were some kind of trade-off I'd see the argument, but the
worst case here is just that they may or may not need it. For
something with some benefit and almost no drawback that seems like a
wrong reason to avoid LVM.
--
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-31 17:30 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2017-08-31 19:25 ` Dale
2017-08-31 19:36 ` Rich Freeman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2017-08-31 19:25 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The problem is, if the hard drives fills up, most won't know that they
>> can use LVM to expand it by adding a new drive. Since they don't know
>> what LVM is, they don't know about the option they have and won't use it
>> since they don't know it exists.
> Honestly, I'm not sure how many of these users will be installing
> Ubuntu in the first place.
>
> However, if they do use LVM and they end up asking somebody
> knowledgeable for help, that person will be very happy to find that
> the system has LVM installed.
>
> If there were some kind of trade-off I'd see the argument, but the
> worst case here is just that they may or may not need it. For
> something with some benefit and almost no drawback that seems like a
> wrong reason to avoid LVM.
>
Even I've installed Ubuntu and friends for others in the past and it has
LVM on it. Thing is, the person that actually uses the computer doesn't
even know it exists. They also wouldn't know how to install Linux, of
any flavor, or windoze either for that matter. Far to many only know
how to push the button on the front to turn it on.
Sure, it may help a very tiny percentage of people but I suspect it will
be tiny. Mostly, for the same reasons I pointed out in another reply on
this thread.
Dale
:-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-31 19:25 ` Dale
@ 2017-08-31 19:36 ` Rich Freeman
2017-08-31 20:06 ` Dale
0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread
From: Rich Freeman @ 2017-08-31 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 3:25 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>> If there were some kind of trade-off I'd see the argument, but the
>> worst case here is just that they may or may not need it. For
>> something with some benefit and almost no drawback that seems like a
>> wrong reason to avoid LVM.
>>
>
> Sure, it may help a very tiny percentage of people but I suspect it will
> be tiny. Mostly, for the same reasons I pointed out in another reply on
> this thread.
>
IMO the important question isn't how many it helps, but how many it hurts.
If it helps a tiny number, and it hurts none, then it is a worthwhile default.
--
Rich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-31 19:36 ` Rich Freeman
@ 2017-08-31 20:06 ` Dale
0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2017-08-31 20:06 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 3:25 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> If there were some kind of trade-off I'd see the argument, but the
>>> worst case here is just that they may or may not need it. For
>>> something with some benefit and almost no drawback that seems like a
>>> wrong reason to avoid LVM.
>>>
>> Sure, it may help a very tiny percentage of people but I suspect it will
>> be tiny. Mostly, for the same reasons I pointed out in another reply on
>> this thread.
>>
> IMO the important question isn't how many it helps, but how many it hurts.
>
> If it helps a tiny number, and it hurts none, then it is a worthwhile default.
>
That wasn't the point tho. I'm sure a init thingy helps some small
number of people but it also hurts some because they have to add one
more layer that can fail. I've had init thingys fail on me several
times with different distros. If one is not going to use LVM properly,
why install it by default and risk a upgrade causing a problem and the
lose of data? I use LVM here. I have two 3TBs drives for my /home
directory. Before that, I didn't use LVM. Those of us who knows what
it is and uses it are not that large a percentage of people.
The point is, one shouldn't add LVM to a system when the user will never
use it or worse yet, even know what it is or what it is for. It just
adds one more thing that can cause problems.
Dale
:-) :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Simplest NTP client for standalone system?
2017-08-29 16:49 ` Rich Freeman
2017-08-30 11:25 ` Walter Dnes
2017-08-30 22:13 ` Alan McKinnon
@ 2017-08-31 2:16 ` Dale
2 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread
From: Dale @ 2017-08-31 2:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Another example is LVM. You or I might really need it (debatable now we
>> have ZFS) but the average user has no concept of what it might be, or
>> care. So why do Ubuntu installers shove it in your face as something
>> really cool that you should really really use? Because the author of the
>> installer thinks it's really cool, that's why.
>>
> Maybe.
>
> Or maybe because when that computer's hard drive starts getting full
> and you add a new hard drive, if you're using lvm with a few commands
> you can make your /home expand across both drives, while with straight
> partitions that is a lot more work.
>
> There really is no reason not to use some kind of volume management
> solution these days, whether that is zfs/btrfs, or lvm. When your
> data is on lvm it is MUCH easier to move it around than if you just
> put it directly on drive partitions.
>
> Arguably you want more flexibility around adding/removing drives on
> the desktop than in the enterprise, because desktop users don't add
> and remove drives in sets of 5-6. This is why I think btrfs is
> actually superior to zfs conceptually on the desktop (setting aside
> the fact that it will tend to eat your data) - the flexibility matters
> more on the small scale because you want to go from a 3-disk RAID5 to
> a 4-disk RAID5.
>
>
You have a point but most people I know use a computer for years, until
it is about dead due to age, and the hard drive isn't even half full. I
have a neighbor that bought a computer several years ago with a 1TB
drive. Last I looked, it had less than 200GBs of data on it, including
the OS.
Sad to say but when a drive fills up, most people would think the system
is broken and just go buy a new one, while losing the data at the same
time. Most people I know, don't even think about transferring data from
their old system to their new system. They just assume a video or
whatever won't work except on that old system so they lose everything.
It's sad to say, even about some of my friends and even family members,
most are clueless about how a computer works and how easy it can be to
transfer data from one system to another. Same can be said with
backups. Especially if you don't have a lot, online backup services can
be very easy and require nothing from the user.
Dale
:-) :-)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread