[gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Dale]

Hi,

I have a niece that brought me her puter.  It's a HP with windoze XP on 
it.  I want to defrag the hard drive but the one that comes with windoze 
won't work.  Is there a free defrag tool that is safe on windoze?  I ask 
because I don't want to install something and not know what I am 
installing.  You know, some program with a nasty virus attached or 
something.

I did Google and found a lot of tools but I'm not sure which one to 
trust.  If someone here has used one before and trusts the one they 
used, I would be happy to hear about it.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Jacob Todd]

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Defraggler. Ccleaner by the same company is also nice.

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Dale]

Jacob Todd wrote:
>
> Defraggler. Ccleaner by the same company is also nice.
>

That is one I ran across with google.  It appears it can run from the OS 
itself.  Is it capable of running from within the OS it is defragging?   
Way back when, defraggers had to be run from either another drive or 
something.  Back then, we boot them off floppies.  lol  Yea, I'm getting 
old.  :-(

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Stroller]

On 15/11/2010, at 3:56am, Dale wrote:
> ...
> I have a niece that brought me her puter.  It's a HP with windoze XP on it.  I want to defrag the hard drive but the one that comes with windoze won't work.  Is there a free defrag tool that is safe on windoze?

I would be more concerned why defrag itself (Start > Run `dfrg.msc`) isn't working. If it's refusing because there's filesystem corruption, then I would advise against using anything else!

You need to be logged in as an administrator in order to run defrag. If you boot XP to safe mode then a user named Administrator will be shown amongst the logon icons, and that user has no password. 

Running defrag,exe at the command-line (Start > Run `cmd`; `defrag,exe /?`) might give an explanation. Running `chkdsk /?`, choosing the most aggressive options and then `chkdsk c:` will cause the disk to be checked for corruption (`fsck` equivalent) at the next reboot. Obviously you should take a backup before doing this, as occasionally filesystem corruption will be *really* bad.

Ideally you will disable swap / pagefile before defragmenting and enable it again afterwards. You can boot from a PE boot CD and run defrag from that, but it doesn't really seem necessary.

Also check that "compress files and folders" is disabled <http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307987>. You're best to apply it to the whole drive (actually tick the box saying you DO want to compress files and folders), but when the dialog box comes up saying "shall I apply that to all sub-directories" tell it "no". Then go back to checkbox again, disable it, then when the dialog box comes up tell it "yes". That will crunch away for some time ensuring that compression is not being used at all. Because Windows XP launched a decade ago, when disks were much smaller, the option to compress files and folders is recommended in the Disk Cleanup Wizard, so this option may be set incorrectly, and it is worth checking.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Dale]

Stroller wrote:
> On 15/11/2010, at 3:56am, Dale wrote:
>    
>> ...
>> I have a niece that brought me her puter.  It's a HP with windoze XP on it.  I want to defrag the hard drive but the one that comes with windoze won't work.  Is there a free defrag tool that is safe on windoze?
>>      
> I would be more concerned why defrag itself (Start>  Run `dfrg.msc`) isn't working. If it's refusing because there's filesystem corruption, then I would advise against using anything else!
>
> You need to be logged in as an administrator in order to run defrag. If you boot XP to safe mode then a user named Administrator will be shown amongst the logon icons, and that user has no password.
>
> Running defrag,exe at the command-line (Start>  Run `cmd`; `defrag,exe /?`) might give an explanation. Running `chkdsk /?`, choosing the most aggressive options and then `chkdsk c:` will cause the disk to be checked for corruption (`fsck` equivalent) at the next reboot. Obviously you should take a backup before doing this, as occasionally filesystem corruption will be *really* bad.
>
> Ideally you will disable swap / pagefile before defragmenting and enable it again afterwards. You can boot from a PE boot CD and run defrag from that, but it doesn't really seem necessary.
>
> Also check that "compress files and folders" is disabled<http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307987>. You're best to apply it to the whole drive (actually tick the box saying you DO want to compress files and folders), but when the dialog box comes up saying "shall I apply that to all sub-directories" tell it "no". Then go back to checkbox again, disable it, then when the dialog box comes up tell it "yes". That will crunch away for some time ensuring that compression is not being used at all. Because Windows XP launched a decade ago, when disks were much smaller, the option to compress files and folders is recommended in the Disk Cleanup Wizard, so this option may be set incorrectly, and it is worth checking.
>
> Stroller.
>
>    

I am thinking like you on the reason it is not working.  It was brought 
to me because it was not running as fast as it used to.  First thing I 
noticed was that AVG hasn't been updated in about 2 YEARS.  I installed 
the newest AVG and it found hundreds of infections and said it fixed 
them.  I never was a big believer in "fixing" a infection.  Anyway, I 
got that updated and got it to scan until nothing was found.

While doing that, I noticed the drive was really doing some serious 
searching while booting and such.  It is also pretty slow to boot.  The 
poor drive light stays on about all the time and you can hear the heads 
going back and forth.  I wanted to run defrag just to see if it would 
help.  I figure if AVG hasn't been updated in that long, I doubt they 
ran defrag either, not to mention it doesn't work.

I couldn't get Defraggler to work either.  Different error and I even 
tried a older version that wasn't beta with the same results.  I then 
found mydefrag and gave it a try.  So far, it is working on it and it 
seems to be doing something at least.   The window makes it look like it 
was fragmented really bad.  It looks like something that would come out 
of a blender after hitting frappé.

If this completes, I'm going to let them try it to see if it is any 
better.  If it is still not to their liking, they will just have to get 
a windoze CD and I'll reinstall from scratch.  That should help.

In case you can't tell, I don't claim to know a lot about windoze.  
People in my family just like me to work on their puters.  I worked on 
puters until windoze 3.1 came out.  I changed careers.  I got tired of 
that pretty quick.  I just thought DOS was bad.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[J. Roeleveld]

On Monday 15 November 2010 10:32:00 Dale wrote:
> Stroller wrote:
> > On 15/11/2010, at 3:56am, Dale wrote:
> >> ...

<snipped> 

> I am thinking like you on the reason it is not working.  It was brought
> to me because it was not running as fast as it used to.  First thing I
> noticed was that AVG hasn't been updated in about 2 YEARS.  I installed
> the newest AVG and it found hundreds of infections and said it fixed
> them.  I never was a big believer in "fixing" a infection.  Anyway, I
> got that updated and got it to scan until nothing was found.

Great, a MS Windows PC that hasn't been maintained in 2+ years...
If there are hundreds of infections, I'd scrap the install, but then you do 
need the install-media for the OS and software they use.
Some of them might simply be cookies, btw. I've seen virus scanners delete all 
the cookies just because they "might" be wrong.

> While doing that, I noticed the drive was really doing some serious
> searching while booting and such.  It is also pretty slow to boot.  The
> poor drive light stays on about all the time and you can hear the heads
> going back and forth.  I wanted to run defrag just to see if it would
> help.  I figure if AVG hasn't been updated in that long, I doubt they
> ran defrag either, not to mention it doesn't work.

Sounds like a good guess, however, I told my parents how to do basic 
maintenance on their computer (including defrag), but it will still slow down 
over time.
No idea why, but I'd check the installed programs list and uninstall anything 
they do NOT use.

> I couldn't get Defraggler to work either.  Different error and I even
> tried a older version that wasn't beta with the same results.  I then
> found mydefrag and gave it a try.  So far, it is working on it and it
> seems to be doing something at least.   The window makes it look like it
> was fragmented really bad.  It looks like something that would come out
> of a blender after hitting frappé.

My guess for the error: "There is insufficient diskspace to defragment this 
drive"
Solution: Copy documents over onto an external drive
Then delete the copied documents from the harddrive and then run defrag.

Do NOT use "move" with MS Windows, I've had it fail and then had to manually 
figure out what was and wasn't moved yet.

> If this completes, I'm going to let them try it to see if it is any
> better.  If it is still not to their liking, they will just have to get
> a windoze CD and I'll reinstall from scratch.  That should help.

To be honest, I doubt it'll be much better. In the "old" days, Symantec had a 
utility that could also optimize the registry. That generally did work, but 
the last time I used that was with MS Windows 98.
Never did see a copy for later versions. (Ok, I admit, I didn't bother to look 
for it)

> In case you can't tell, I don't claim to know a lot about windoze.
> People in my family just like me to work on their puters.  I worked on
> puters until windoze 3.1 came out.  I changed careers.  I got tired of
> that pretty quick.  I just thought DOS was bad.  lol

I swtiched completely over to Linux in 1998 for personal use. Only use MS 
Windows when I have no choice (eg. using MS Windows only software/applications 
for work).
I did the switch after MS Windows crashed and stole my email and documents one 
time too many.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Peter Humphrey]

On Monday 15 November 2010 09:46:38 J. Roeleveld wrote:

> I ... only use MS Windows when I have no choice (eg. using MS Windows
> only software/applications for work).

The one use I have for it nowadays is to run IE to check how it displays 
my website. I found (was told of) a utility that emulates any or all 
versions of IE, so I can see what almost any visitor will see. That's 
why I haven't evicted it from my laptop yet.

-- 
Rgds
Peter.          Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[J. Roeleveld]

On Monday 15 November 2010 12:01:49 Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Monday 15 November 2010 09:46:38 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > I ... only use MS Windows when I have no choice (eg. using MS Windows
> > only software/applications for work).
> 
> The one use I have for it nowadays is to run IE to check how it displays
> my website. I found (was told of) a utility that emulates any or all
> versions of IE, so I can see what almost any visitor will see. That's
> why I haven't evicted it from my laptop yet.

Doesn't that utility run under Wine? :)

I tend not to bother with other browsers, the few web sites I have are mainly 
for private use and the few visitors I get are me and my family :)

They know better then to complain it doesn't work with IE. My standard reply 
is: use a decent browser ;)

--
Joost

PS. it helps if the userbase will actually listen ;)

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Mick]

On 15 November 2010 09:46, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:

> My guess for the error: "There is insufficient diskspace to defragment this
> drive"
> Solution: Copy documents over onto an external drive
> Then delete the copied documents from the harddrive and then run defrag.

It would be easier to suggest solutions if we knew what the *exact*
error was when trying to run defrag.exe

Insufficient disk space is often caused by a corrupt page file, which
on a MSWindows machine is typically on the same partition as the OS.
The solution would be to:

a) Boot into safe mode (pressing F8) then disable System Restore:

http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/tutorials/tutorial56.html

b) Disable page file and reboot.  Then enable it again and reboot.

c) Move/delete a load of the MSWindows updates uninstall files from
the C:\WINDOWS directory; first google for something like this to find
out what you can mv/zip/delete and what not:

http://windowsxp.mvps.org/Hotfix_backup.htm

c) Clean all *.tmp files, and empty directories:

http://pcsupport.about.com/od/maintenance/ht/manualtempxp.htm

d) Delete all Internet files from Internet Explorer.

e) Install MS Security Essentials and give it a full scan.

f) Then run defrag.exe.

g) Reboot, then use MyDefrag to defrag the drive, using the System -
Monthly defrag pattern.

Precautions that would pay dividends in the longevity of your niece's
WinXP would be to:

Shrink the MSWindows OS partition (using gparted LiveCD) to something
like 25-30G and create one more large partition.  Move all personal
data there and change the paths of all MSWindows applications to save
their docs in the new partition instead of MyDocuments, et al.

Create a new page file into the new partition and remove the old page file.

When you boot into Safe Mode set up a passwd for the administrator
account and change your niece's privileges to plain user.

Teach her how to use the admin account to manage her MSWindows Updates
and install remove programs.  Viruses will not be able to install when
she goes wild on the Internet without her running them as
administrator.

HTH.

PS.  Personally, I would create yet one more partition, install Ubuntu
for her and give her a 10 minute induction course on using Linux ...
then come back in 3 months and uninstall WinXP all together  ;-)
-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Jacob Todd]

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You might want to run spinrite on the drive if you have/can find a copy of
it.
On Nov 15, 2010 4:33 AM, "Dale" <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Stroller wrote:
>> On 15/11/2010, at 3:56am, Dale wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> I have a niece that brought me her puter. It's a HP with windoze XP on
it. I want to defrag the hard drive but the one that comes with windoze
won't work. Is there a free defrag tool that is safe on windoze?
>>>
>> I would be more concerned why defrag itself (Start> Run `dfrg.msc`) isn't
working. If it's refusing because there's filesystem corruption, then I
would advise against using anything else!
>>
>> You need to be logged in as an administrator in order to run defrag. If
you boot XP to safe mode then a user named Administrator will be shown
amongst the logon icons, and that user has no password.
>>
>> Running defrag,exe at the command-line (Start> Run `cmd`; `defrag,exe
/?`) might give an explanation. Running `chkdsk /?`, choosing the most
aggressive options and then `chkdsk c:` will cause the disk to be checked
for corruption (`fsck` equivalent) at the next reboot. Obviously you should
take a backup before doing this, as occasionally filesystem corruption will
be *really* bad.
>>
>> Ideally you will disable swap / pagefile before defragmenting and enable
it again afterwards. You can boot from a PE boot CD and run defrag from
that, but it doesn't really seem necessary.
>>
>> Also check that "compress files and folders" is disabled<
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307987>. You're best to apply it to the
whole drive (actually tick the box saying you DO want to compress files and
folders), but when the dialog box comes up saying "shall I apply that to all
sub-directories" tell it "no". Then go back to checkbox again, disable it,
then when the dialog box comes up tell it "yes". That will crunch away for
some time ensuring that compression is not being used at all. Because
Windows XP launched a decade ago, when disks were much smaller, the option
to compress files and folders is recommended in the Disk Cleanup Wizard, so
this option may be set incorrectly, and it is worth checking.
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
>>
>
> I am thinking like you on the reason it is not working. It was brought
> to me because it was not running as fast as it used to. First thing I
> noticed was that AVG hasn't been updated in about 2 YEARS. I installed
> the newest AVG and it found hundreds of infections and said it fixed
> them. I never was a big believer in "fixing" a infection. Anyway, I
> got that updated and got it to scan until nothing was found.
>
> While doing that, I noticed the drive was really doing some serious
> searching while booting and such. It is also pretty slow to boot. The
> poor drive light stays on about all the time and you can hear the heads
> going back and forth. I wanted to run defrag just to see if it would
> help. I figure if AVG hasn't been updated in that long, I doubt they
> ran defrag either, not to mention it doesn't work.
>
> I couldn't get Defraggler to work either. Different error and I even
> tried a older version that wasn't beta with the same results. I then
> found mydefrag and gave it a try. So far, it is working on it and it
> seems to be doing something at least. The window makes it look like it
> was fragmented really bad. It looks like something that would come out
> of a blender after hitting frappé.
>
> If this completes, I'm going to let them try it to see if it is any
> better. If it is still not to their liking, they will just have to get
> a windoze CD and I'll reinstall from scratch. That should help.
>
> In case you can't tell, I don't claim to know a lot about windoze.
> People in my family just like me to work on their puters. I worked on
> puters until windoze 3.1 came out. I changed careers. I got tired of
> that pretty quick. I just thought DOS was bad. lol
>
> Dale
>
> :-) :-)
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Mick]

On 15 November 2010 13:13, Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com> wrote:
> You might want to run spinrite on the drive if you have/can find a copy of
> it.

Why?

-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Jacob Todd]

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Sounds like something is wrong with te drive, and spinrite.can probably fix
it.
On Nov 15, 2010 9:16 AM, "Mick" <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 15 November 2010 13:13, Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You might want to run spinrite on the drive if you have/can find a copy
of
>> it.
>
> Why?
>
> --
> Regards,
> Mick
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[J. Roeleveld]

On Monday 15 November 2010 15:50:37 Jacob Todd wrote:
> Sounds like something is wrong with te drive, and spinrite.can probably fix
> it.

I don't see what Spinrite can do to help with defragging a harddrive for MS 
Windows?

I like the bit where it explains "how it prevents a disk crash":

"It first reads the data out of a region, then exercises that region with 
patterns of data that SpinRite has determined are the most difficult for the 
drive to read and write. In this way, any weak and failing areas within the 
region are located and removed from use while none of the drive's original 
data is being stored there. Only after the region has been made absolutely 
safe, will the drive's original data be restored to that area. "
(quoted from the website for Spinrite: http://www.grc.com/sroverview.htm )

supposedly this is "unique" (Just hope the system doesn't freeze up or the 
power goes while it's doing this....)

How is this different from:
1) take a backup
2) check for bad sectors (badblocks)
3) restore backup

This is also less risky as the data is backed up somewhere safe

--
Joost

> 
> On Nov 15, 2010 9:16 AM, "Mick" <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 15 November 2010 13:13, Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> You might want to run spinrite on the drive if you have/can find a copy
> 
> of
> 
> >> it.
> > 
> > Why?
> > 
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[BRM]

----- Original Message ----

> From: Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>
> I have a niece that brought me her puter.  It's a HP with  windoze XP on it.  I 
>want to defrag the hard drive but the one that comes  with windoze won't work.  
>Is there a free defrag tool that is safe on  windoze?  I ask because I don't 
>want to install something and not know what  I am installing.  You know, some 
>program with a nasty virus attached or  something.
> 
> I did Google and found a lot of tools but I'm not sure which  one to trust.  If 
>someone here has used one before and trusts the one they  used, I would be happy 
>to hear about  it.

Well, the build-in version of the Defrag program is a really a shill. But that's 
mostly b/c Microsoft is licensing a stripped down version of a really good piece 
of software called "Disk Keeper" (http://www.diskeeper.com/). While it's not 
free, open source, etc. the price is worth it to keep a Windows system in check 
and running smoothly.

Ben

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Mick]

On 15 November 2010 14:50, Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sounds like something is wrong with te drive, and spinrite.can probably fix
> it.

If the drive had badblocks it would probably launch chkdsk or bring up
similar errors about a corrupt fs.

As I said, without a clear and succinct error message we're stabbing
in the dark as to what problem Dale's niece has with her PC ...

-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Florian Philipp]

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Am 15.11.2010 04:56, schrieb Dale:
> Hi,
> 
> I have a niece that brought me her puter.  It's a HP with windoze XP on
> it.  I want to defrag the hard drive but the one that comes with windoze
> won't work.  Is there a free defrag tool that is safe on windoze?  I ask
> because I don't want to install something and not know what I am
> installing.  You know, some program with a nasty virus attached or
> something.
> 
> I did Google and found a lot of tools but I'm not sure which one to
> trust.  If someone here has used one before and trusts the one they
> used, I would be happy to hear about it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)
> 

Try jkdefrag [1] or its modern successor mydefrag [2]. I've worked with
jkdefrag for some time. I don't know mydefrag, though.

It's LGPL licensed. The GUI is a bit ugly but it has a lot of
functionality and can handle cases in which the Windows defragger
doesn't work. That mostly happens when the disk is nearly full.

AFAIK all free and commercial defraggers use the same API that the
Windows defragger provides, they just do their job more intelligent.

[1] http://kessels.com/jkdefrag/
[2] http://www.mydefrag.com/

Hope this helps,
Florian Philipp


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Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 17:10 on Monday 15 November 2010, J. Roeleveld 
did opine thusly:

> On Monday 15 November 2010 15:50:37 Jacob Todd wrote:
> > Sounds like something is wrong with te drive, and spinrite.can probably
> > fix it.
> 
> I don't see what Spinrite can do to help with defragging a harddrive for MS
> Windows?
> 
> I like the bit where it explains "how it prevents a disk crash":
> 
> "It first reads the data out of a region, then exercises that region with
> patterns of data that SpinRite has determined are the most difficult for
> the drive to read and write. In this way, any weak and failing areas
> within the region are located and removed from use while none of the
> drive's original data is being stored there. Only after the region has
> been made absolutely safe, will the drive's original data be restored to
> that area. "
> (quoted from the website for Spinrite: http://www.grc.com/sroverview.htm )
> 
> supposedly this is "unique" (Just hope the system doesn't freeze up or the
> power goes while it's doing this....)
> 
> How is this different from:
> 1) take a backup
> 2) check for bad sectors (badblocks)
> 3) restore backup
> 
> This is also less risky as the data is backed up somewhere safe

spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive firmware 
makes it do. Meaning that spinrite can extract data that the drive itself in 
normal conditions cannot. This reasoning is sound.

Remember that a drive is an analogue device, not a digital one (only the 
*output data* is digital).

There is some doubt as to whether spinrite can even function in this wise with 
modern drives though.



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Mike Edenfield]

On 11/15/2010 11:05 AM, Florian Philipp wrote:

> It's LGPL licensed. The GUI is a bit ugly but it has a lot of
> functionality and can handle cases in which the Windows defragger
> doesn't work. That mostly happens when the disk is nearly full.

Since we're *way* off topic as it is:

mydefrag isn't LGPL, just freeware, but I did notice this on the
jkdefrag site:

"The executables are released under the GNU General Public License, and
the sources are released under the GNU Lesser General Public License."

Is that even possible?

--Mike

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[BRM]

----- Original Message ----

> From: Mike Edenfield <kutulu@kutulu.org>
> On 11/15/2010 11:05 AM, Florian Philipp wrote:
> > It's LGPL licensed.  The GUI is a bit ugly but it has a lot of
> > functionality and can handle  cases in which the Windows defragger
> > doesn't work. That mostly happens  when the disk is nearly full.
> 
> Since we're *way* off topic as it  is:
> 
> mydefrag isn't LGPL, just freeware, but I did notice this on  the
> jkdefrag site:
> 
> "The executables are released under the GNU General  Public License, and
> the sources are released under the GNU Lesser General  Public License."
> 
> Is that even possible?
>

I doubt it, but you'd have to ask FSF to know for sure.

(IANAL)

Ben

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 19:43 on Monday 15 November 2010, Mike 
Edenfield did opine thusly:

> On 11/15/2010 11:05 AM, Florian Philipp wrote:
> > It's LGPL licensed. The GUI is a bit ugly but it has a lot of
> > functionality and can handle cases in which the Windows defragger
> > doesn't work. That mostly happens when the disk is nearly full.
> 
> Since we're *way* off topic as it is:
> 
> mydefrag isn't LGPL, just freeware, but I did notice this on the
> jkdefrag site:
> 
> "The executables are released under the GNU General Public License, and
> the sources are released under the GNU Lesser General Public License."
> 
> Is that even possible?

It's possible, as someone did it ... :-)

It's not valid though, and it's nonsensical. If they give you binaries per 
GPL, then they must make the sources available. They already make the sources 
available per LGPL, so now they are dual-licensed. If you choose to accept 
them under GPL, then you may only compile and redistribute them under GPL. If 
you choose to accept them under LGPL, compile them and redistribute them, then 
other non-GPL software can link to them per the terms of the LGPL.

So which is it? GPL? LGPL? Both? 

Sounds like someone on that project has a gigantic misunderstanding on how the 
licenses work.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 19:43 on Monday 15 November 2010, Mike
> Edenfield did opine thusly:
>
>    
>> On 11/15/2010 11:05 AM, Florian Philipp wrote:
>>      
>>> It's LGPL licensed. The GUI is a bit ugly but it has a lot of
>>> functionality and can handle cases in which the Windows defragger
>>> doesn't work. That mostly happens when the disk is nearly full.
>>>        
>> Since we're *way* off topic as it is:
>>
>> mydefrag isn't LGPL, just freeware, but I did notice this on the
>> jkdefrag site:
>>
>> "The executables are released under the GNU General Public License, and
>> the sources are released under the GNU Lesser General Public License."
>>
>> Is that even possible?
>>      
> It's possible, as someone did it ... :-)
>
> It's not valid though, and it's nonsensical. If they give you binaries per
> GPL, then they must make the sources available. They already make the sources
> available per LGPL, so now they are dual-licensed. If you choose to accept
> them under GPL, then you may only compile and redistribute them under GPL. If
> you choose to accept them under LGPL, compile them and redistribute them, then
> other non-GPL software can link to them per the terms of the LGPL.
>
> So which is it? GPL? LGPL? Both?
>
> Sounds like someone on that project has a gigantic misunderstanding on how the
> licenses work.
>
>
>    

OK.  I took a nap and it seems everyone on the list wanted to chime in.  
lol  This is one reason I posted here.  I knew I would get at least a 
few replies.  Just picking one to reply to so not pointing at Alan here.

First, the drive is not full.  It has about 30% or so left.  I think the 
virus broke something and I don't have the OS media to reinstall.  If I 
had my way, that puter would have Linux and a root password that only I 
know.

Second, it has not been kept up to date for sure.  They are little kids, 
oldest is getting about old enough to understand how to maintain things 
tho.

Third, I'm not going to go to to much trouble with this thing and trying 
to get it back to shiny new.  If it doesn't work to their liking, I'll 
tell them to get a CD/DVD with the install on it or I can put Linux on 
it for free.  Let them decide.

One post mentioned that this needs to be reinstalled, I AGREE.  If I had 
the CD/DVD to install from, I would do just that.  Heck, I would have 
done that right after I saw AVG being so out of date.  I wouldn't have 
even turned the thing off.  I would have put in the CD, pulled the plug 
and booted the CD and reinstalled.

The program mydefragger seemed to work pretty well.  It is done and I am 
running it again just to be sure.  I'll see if it reboots any faster 
now.  That should tell me if it helped any at all.  I don't think it 
could hurt for sure.

Thanks for the replies.  Going to download one of those defraggers that 
someone mentioned and save it for a rainy day.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 00:01 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Dale did 
opine thusly:

> OK.  I took a nap and it seems everyone on the list wanted to chime in.  
> lol  This is one reason I posted here.  I knew I would get at least a 
> few replies.  Just picking one to reply to so not pointing at Alan here.
> 
> First, the drive is not full.  It has about 30% or so left.  I think the 
> virus broke something and I don't have the OS media to reinstall.  If I 
> had my way, that puter would have Linux and a root password that only I 
> know.
> 
> Second, it has not been kept up to date for sure.  They are little kids, 
> oldest is getting about old enough to understand how to maintain things 
> tho.
> 
> Third, I'm not going to go to to much trouble with this thing and trying 
> to get it back to shiny new.  If it doesn't work to their liking, I'll 
> tell them to get a CD/DVD with the install on it or I can put Linux on 
> it for free.  Let them decide.
> 
> One post mentioned that this needs to be reinstalled, I AGREE.


Same here. I find this approach workable:

Tell them the machine needs an OS re-install. They can pick

Windows - which they will pay for
Linux - it's free

Either way they will lose their data. Give them that choice and let them 
decide for themselves.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 00:01 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Dale did
> opine thusly:
>
>    
>> OK.  I took a nap and it seems everyone on the list wanted to chime in.
>> lol  This is one reason I posted here.  I knew I would get at least a
>> few replies.  Just picking one to reply to so not pointing at Alan here.
>>
>> First, the drive is not full.  It has about 30% or so left.  I think the
>> virus broke something and I don't have the OS media to reinstall.  If I
>> had my way, that puter would have Linux and a root password that only I
>> know.
>>
>> Second, it has not been kept up to date for sure.  They are little kids,
>> oldest is getting about old enough to understand how to maintain things
>> tho.
>>
>> Third, I'm not going to go to to much trouble with this thing and trying
>> to get it back to shiny new.  If it doesn't work to their liking, I'll
>> tell them to get a CD/DVD with the install on it or I can put Linux on
>> it for free.  Let them decide.
>>
>> One post mentioned that this needs to be reinstalled, I AGREE.
>>      
>
> Same here. I find this approach workable:
>
> Tell them the machine needs an OS re-install. They can pick
>
> Windows - which they will pay for
> Linux - it's free
>
> Either way they will lose their data. Give them that choice and let them
> decide for themselves.
>
>
>    

I'm just adding one option.  Hope it works as is.  They are kids.  Even 
if windoze won't boot, I'll put the drive in my system and copy anything 
important over, pictures or something.  Then they are left with the 
options you gave.  Because it is kids, they don't want to buy the OS.  
They will break it anyway.  lol  Then again, if I reinstall it, they 
will still break it.  :/   They are kids and it is still windoze.

I'm going to mention putting Linux on it tho.  I can install Mandriva on 
it pretty quick and just not give the kids the root password.  They 
check email, play those games on facebook and that is about it.  The 
oldest one is getting close to the age where she can start learning to 
upgrade too.

This is like dating, time will tell.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Mark Knecht]

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>
>> Apparently, though unproven, at 00:01 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Dale
>> did
>> opine thusly:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> OK.  I took a nap and it seems everyone on the list wanted to chime in.
>>> lol  This is one reason I posted here.  I knew I would get at least a
>>> few replies.  Just picking one to reply to so not pointing at Alan here.
>>>
>>> First, the drive is not full.  It has about 30% or so left.  I think the
>>> virus broke something and I don't have the OS media to reinstall.  If I
>>> had my way, that puter would have Linux and a root password that only I
>>> know.
>>>
>>> Second, it has not been kept up to date for sure.  They are little kids,
>>> oldest is getting about old enough to understand how to maintain things
>>> tho.
>>>
>>> Third, I'm not going to go to to much trouble with this thing and trying
>>> to get it back to shiny new.  If it doesn't work to their liking, I'll
>>> tell them to get a CD/DVD with the install on it or I can put Linux on
>>> it for free.  Let them decide.
>>>
>>> One post mentioned that this needs to be reinstalled, I AGREE.
>>>
>>
>> Same here. I find this approach workable:
>>
>> Tell them the machine needs an OS re-install. They can pick
>>
>> Windows - which they will pay for
>> Linux - it's free
>>
>> Either way they will lose their data. Give them that choice and let them
>> decide for themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I'm just adding one option.  Hope it works as is.  They are kids.  Even if
> windoze won't boot, I'll put the drive in my system and copy anything
> important over, pictures or something.  Then they are left with the options
> you gave.  Because it is kids, they don't want to buy the OS.  They will
> break it anyway.  lol  Then again, if I reinstall it, they will still break
> it.  :/   They are kids and it is still windoze.
>
> I'm going to mention putting Linux on it tho.  I can install Mandriva on it
> pretty quick and just not give the kids the root password.  They check
> email, play those games on facebook and that is about it.  The oldest one is
> getting close to the age where she can start learning to upgrade too.
>
> This is like dating, time will tell.  ;-)
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>
Dale,
   I spent my day working on my big Gentoo box that has a 980x
processor with 6 cores/12 threads. I only mention this because I was
running 3 copies of Windows (2 XP and 1 Win 7) all day long in VMWare
Player. If your kids just want to run a basic Windows then consider
going that direction. I ran a numerical program all day long crunching
numbers in a VMWare instance with 4 threads (Win XP), traded live in
the market using TradeStation on a 2 thread machine (Win XP) and ran
NetFlix Instant Watch in a 3rd machine (Win 7) with a single thread.
Not a hiccup anywhere.

   And remember, even though Windows breaks, AND IT DOES, I have
backups of the 20GB VMWare disks so I can rollback 1 week in a matter
of a few minutes if things go bad with Windows. The whole Windows
installation is just a bunch of files. Restore that one directory and
you're back in business.

   I play games in VMWare on Gentoo once in awhile. It's OK for me,
probably not for my son looking for lots of 3D performance, etc.

   Also, I own and use SpinRite. If you want or need info get in touch
off list. I like the program but it does have issues and it's not all
that actively updated anymore. (From what I can tell...)

Cheers,
Mark
   I didn't have time to dig into my copy of SpinRite to reacquaint
myself with that tool, but I've found it helpful. The problem is that
for large modern drives its pretty slow as its testing features

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Adam Carter]

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> > One post mentioned that this needs to be reinstalled, I AGREE.
>

Re installation may be *correct*, but sometimes its impractical. I would
1. Pull the drive, and connect it to another fully patched, fully security
updated windows box.
2. From that box run chkdsk -> full virus scan -> defrag
3. Reconnect the disk to the original box, and boot from the windows install
disk and perform a repair. Use an installation disk that has been
slipstreamed with the correct service pack. You should be able to find the
media -  just remember that OEM media is different to standard media.
4. Uninstall all the crap.... (check Run registry keys)

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Dale]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1659 bytes --]

Adam Carter wrote:
>
>     > One post mentioned that this needs to be reinstalled, I AGREE.
>
>
> Re installation may be *correct*, but sometimes its impractical. I would
> 1. Pull the drive, and connect it to another fully patched, fully 
> security updated windows box.
> 2. From that box run chkdsk -> full virus scan -> defrag
> 3. Reconnect the disk to the original box, and boot from the windows 
> install disk and perform a repair. Use an installation disk that has 
> been slipstreamed with the correct service pack. You should be able to 
> find the media -  just remember that OEM media is different to 
> standard media.
> 4. Uninstall all the crap.... (check Run registry keys)
>
>

That's not doable here tho.  This is a Linux only house.  My nieces 
puter is the only puter in the house with windoze on it and it is just 
visiting.  It does have NTFS so I am sort of chicken to hook it up to my 
Linux box.  It would be just my luck that it screwed up something.  I 
would mount it read only to save data but scared to do any writing to it.

I do wish I could do what I want to with it tho.  It's not a bad 
machine.  3.2GHz CPU with a little over a Gig of ram and about a 60Gb 
hard drive.  It would run Linux sweetly.

I did reboot that thing.  It does boot and it boots a lot faster now.  
It appears it was fragmented pretty badly.  The error messages about 
software that used to pop up don't pop up when it boots now either.  
Maybe AVG did clean out some stuff.  I'm not holding my breath but maybe 
it will last the kids a little while at least.

For a Linux list, I sure am getting a lot of good ideas on windoze.  O_O

Dale

:-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Adam Carter]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 396 bytes --]

>
> For a Linux list, I sure am getting a lot of good ideas on windoze.  O_O
>

I'm sure there's many people on this list that have to support relatives
broken PCs ^_^

For me, i have Vista (OEM, came with the laptop) running in a VMware virtual
machine for iTunes (dont get me started on that POS) and Office (still cant
trust OO to do a good enough job for paying customers who use MS Office).

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Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Stroller]

On 15/11/2010, at 11:36pm, Dale wrote:
>>> ... I don't have the OS media to reinstall.
> Because it is kids, they don't want to buy the OS. 

Assuming the laptop has an OEM Windows license sticker on the underside, it is not necessary to buy a new o/s disk.

Any standard Microsoft XP OEM CD [1] will install using that license key. Even if the sticker says "Dell" or "Sony" on it - you only have to match up the "home" or "professional" version. I periodically hear claims that this is not the case, but I don't believe them, as I have never encountered it myself over literally dozens of installs.

Also: uninstall AVG and replace it with Microsoft Security Essentials. I know, I know - you'd think that if you don't trust Microsoft to write a secure o/s in the first place, why should you trust them to write antivirus, right? But Security Essentials is really good, and will find malware that AVG misses. AVG has been going downhill for 2 or 3 years, but has got really bad in the last year and anyone with any sense (who maintains home Windows PCs regularly) has moved to Security Essentials now.
http://www.microsoft.com/security_essentials/

Stroller.



[1] E.G.: http://www.techsouq.com/images/mwxphe.jpg

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Dale]

Stroller wrote:
> On 15/11/2010, at 11:36pm, Dale wrote:
>    
>>>> ... I don't have the OS media to reinstall.
>>>>          
>> Because it is kids, they don't want to buy the OS.
>>      
> Assuming the laptop has an OEM Windows license sticker on the underside, it is not necessary to buy a new o/s disk.
>
> Any standard Microsoft XP OEM CD [1] will install using that license key. Even if the sticker says "Dell" or "Sony" on it - you only have to match up the "home" or "professional" version. I periodically hear claims that this is not the case, but I don't believe them, as I have never encountered it myself over literally dozens of installs.
>
> Also: uninstall AVG and replace it with Microsoft Security Essentials. I know, I know - you'd think that if you don't trust Microsoft to write a secure o/s in the first place, why should you trust them to write antivirus, right? But Security Essentials is really good, and will find malware that AVG misses. AVG has been going downhill for 2 or 3 years, but has got really bad in the last year and anyone with any sense (who maintains home Windows PCs regularly) has moved to Security Essentials now.
> http://www.microsoft.com/security_essentials/
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>
> [1] E.G.: http://www.techsouq.com/images/mwxphe.jpg
>
>    

I have read the same thing about the media and the code.  I only had it 
to fail once and it was a home key but a pro media.  I wasn't surprised 
when it didn't work.  My ex bought it off ebay and when we contacted the 
seller, he went and found the key so we could use it.  At least he was 
good about it.

I'll check into security essentials tho.  I would like something that 
once installed, it updates itself in the background with no input from 
the user.  The kids don't know much about puters as far as maintaining 
them.  I'm sure  AVG told them several times that it was expired, out of 
date or something and they just closed the box and did nothing about 
it.  Since it is a M$ thing, maybe it will update like the OS does and 
the kids never even know it happened.

Thanks for the link and info.  Oh, it's a desktop, not a laptop.  
Doesn't matter much but anyway.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[J. Roeleveld]

On Monday 15 November 2010 18:07:27 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:10 on Monday 15 November 2010, J.
> Roeleveld
> 
> did opine thusly:

<snipped>

> > 
> > How is this different from:
> > 1) take a backup
> > 2) check for bad sectors (badblocks)
> > 3) restore backup
> > 
> > This is also less risky as the data is backed up somewhere safe
> 
> spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive
> firmware makes it do. Meaning that spinrite can extract data that the
> drive itself in normal conditions cannot. This reasoning is sound.

True, provided it actually knows HOW to override the firmware on all drives 
currently in use...

> Remember that a drive is an analogue device, not a digital one (only the
> *output data* is digital).

Ofcourse, but is the head actually sensitive enough to be able to cooperate 
with this? Professional data recovery companies actually take out the platters 
and use their own drive-heads to get the data out.

> There is some doubt as to whether spinrite can even function in this wise
> with modern drives though.

Yes, and that's exactly my point. Something that overrides the drives firmware 
can, in my view, easily brick the drive.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[J. Roeleveld]

On Tuesday 16 November 2010 03:33:19 Dale wrote:
> Adam Carter wrote:
> >     > One post mentioned that this needs to be reinstalled, I AGREE.
> > 
> > Re installation may be *correct*, but sometimes its impractical. I would
> > 1. Pull the drive, and connect it to another fully patched, fully
> > security updated windows box.
> > 2. From that box run chkdsk -> full virus scan -> defrag
> > 3. Reconnect the disk to the original box, and boot from the windows
> > install disk and perform a repair. Use an installation disk that has
> > been slipstreamed with the correct service pack. You should be able to
> > find the media -  just remember that OEM media is different to
> > standard media.
> > 4. Uninstall all the crap.... (check Run registry keys)
> 
> That's not doable here tho.  This is a Linux only house.  My nieces
> puter is the only puter in the house with windoze on it and it is just
> visiting.  It does have NTFS so I am sort of chicken to hook it up to my
> Linux box.  It would be just my luck that it screwed up something.  I
> would mount it read only to save data but scared to do any writing to it.

emerge sys-fs/ntfs3g

I use it to read and write from/to NTFS drives without problems. The in-kernel 
one appears to be ok as well.

> I did reboot that thing.  It does boot and it boots a lot faster now.
> It appears it was fragmented pretty badly.  The error messages about
> software that used to pop up don't pop up when it boots now either.
> Maybe AVG did clean out some stuff.  I'm not holding my breath but maybe
> it will last the kids a little while at least.

It should, but just in case, take a backup of the whole drive (dd 
if=/dev/kidsdrive of=/backupofkidsdrive)

That way you can always restore it quickly for them ;)

> For a Linux list, I sure am getting a lot of good ideas on windoze.  O_O

Linux users (especially on this list) are generally quite clued up about 
computers. The downside of having that knowledge is that relatives tend to 
come to us if they need help.

At my home, the only MS Windows machine is the work laptop of my partner.
For the rest, it's either Linux or Solaris :)

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Alex Schuster]

J. Roeleveld writes:

> On Tuesday 16 November 2010 03:33:19 Dale wrote:

> > That's not doable here tho.  This is a Linux only house.  My nieces
> > puter is the only puter in the house with windoze on it and it is
> > just visiting.  It does have NTFS so I am sort of chicken to hook it
> > up to my Linux box.  It would be just my luck that it screwed up
> > something.  I would mount it read only to save data but scared to do
> > any writing to it.
> 
> emerge sys-fs/ntfs3g
> 
> I use it to read and write from/to NTFS drives without problems. The
> in-kernel one appears to be ok as well.

Doesn't the in-kernel one have only very basic write support? Like, 
modifying files only if the size stays the same?

> > I did reboot that thing.  It does boot and it boots a lot faster now.
> > It appears it was fragmented pretty badly.  The error messages about
> > software that used to pop up don't pop up when it boots now either.
> > Maybe AVG did clean out some stuff.  I'm not holding my breath but
> > maybe it will last the kids a little while at least.
> 
> It should, but just in case, take a backup of the whole drive (dd
> if=/dev/kidsdrive of=/backupofkidsdrive)
> 
> That way you can always restore it quickly for them ;)

There is also the ntfsclone command in sys-fs/ntfsprogs.

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Alex Schuster]

J. Roeleveld writes:

> On Tuesday 16 November 2010 03:33:19 Dale wrote:

> > That's not doable here tho.  This is a Linux only house.  My nieces
> > puter is the only puter in the house with windoze on it and it is
> > just visiting.  It does have NTFS so I am sort of chicken to hook it
> > up to my Linux box.  It would be just my luck that it screwed up
> > something.  I would mount it read only to save data but scared to do
> > any writing to it.
> 
> emerge sys-fs/ntfs3g
> 
> I use it to read and write from/to NTFS drives without problems. The
> in-kernel one appears to be ok as well.

Doesn't the in-kernel one have only very basic write support? Like, 
modifying files only if the size stays the same?

> > I did reboot that thing.  It does boot and it boots a lot faster now.
> > It appears it was fragmented pretty badly.  The error messages about
> > software that used to pop up don't pop up when it boots now either.
> > Maybe AVG did clean out some stuff.  I'm not holding my breath but
> > maybe it will last the kids a little while at least.
> 
> It should, but just in case, take a backup of the whole drive (dd
> if=/dev/kidsdrive of=/backupofkidsdrive)
> 
> That way you can always restore it quickly for them ;)

There is also the ntfsclone command in sys-fs/ntfsprogs.

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[J. Roeleveld]

On Tuesday 16 November 2010 10:53:28 Alex Schuster wrote:
> J. Roeleveld writes:
> > On Tuesday 16 November 2010 03:33:19 Dale wrote:
> > > That's not doable here tho.  This is a Linux only house.  My nieces
> > > puter is the only puter in the house with windoze on it and it is
> > > just visiting.  It does have NTFS so I am sort of chicken to hook it
> > > up to my Linux box.  It would be just my luck that it screwed up
> > > something.  I would mount it read only to save data but scared to do
> > > any writing to it.
> > 
> > emerge sys-fs/ntfs3g
> > 
> > I use it to read and write from/to NTFS drives without problems. The
> > in-kernel one appears to be ok as well.
> 
> Doesn't the in-kernel one have only very basic write support? Like,
> modifying files only if the size stays the same?

Not sure, I'm running current kernels (2.6.30+) and have on occasion 
accidentally used the ink-kernel one and then copied file around.
I didn't loose any data with that.

but I agree, ntfs-3g seems to be the more reliable one for this.

> > > I did reboot that thing.  It does boot and it boots a lot faster now.
> > > It appears it was fragmented pretty badly.  The error messages about
> > > software that used to pop up don't pop up when it boots now either.
> > > Maybe AVG did clean out some stuff.  I'm not holding my breath but
> > > maybe it will last the kids a little while at least.
> > 
> > It should, but just in case, take a backup of the whole drive (dd
> > if=/dev/kidsdrive of=/backupofkidsdrive)
> > 
> > That way you can always restore it quickly for them ;)
> 
> There is also the ntfsclone command in sys-fs/ntfsprogs.

True, except that I was thinking of backup up the whole drive, including the 
boot-sector. It's a bigger backup, but I have never had a stable system after 
just restoring the filesystem for a MS Windows system.
Not sure if this has improved with current systems, but last time I tried it, 
it didn't work.

--
Joost

[gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-16, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:

>> spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive
>> firmware makes it do.

I'm afraid I'll have to call bullshit on that.  I don't see how some
bit of PC software can make a drive head move.  The firmware on the
drive controller board is the only thing that can make the head move.
Does spinrite claim they _replace_ the drive firmware with their own
custom version?

Where does Spinrite's claim they can do override drive firmware?

I don't see any claims like that on their web site?

>> Meaning that spinrite can extract data that the drive itself in
>> normal conditions cannot. This reasoning is sound.

I've no problem with the reasoning.  I, however, don't accept the
premise.

> True, provided it actually knows HOW to override the firmware on all
> drives currently in use...

I doubt that it can.

>> Remember that a drive is an analogue device, not a digital one (only
>> the *output data* is digital).
>
> Ofcourse, but is the head actually sensitive enough to be able to
> cooperate with this? Professional data recovery companies actually
> take out the platters and use their own drive-heads to get the data
> out.
>
>> There is some doubt as to whether spinrite can even function in this
>> wise with modern drives though.
>
> Yes, and that's exactly my point. Something that overrides the drives
> firmware can, in my view, easily brick the drive.

If spinrite is replacing the drive's firmware, then in theory they
might be able to do something "extra", but I'd say the odds of them
being able to reverse-engineer enough the drives out there enough to do
their own custom firmware for all of a significant number of them is
pretty close to 0.

Besides, their web site explicitly states that they can't do low level
formatting, they run under DOS, and that they can only use drives that
are recogized by the mothoerboard BIOS.  AFAICT, they're just using
the normal IDE/ATA API and are doing nothing extraordinary.


-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Hey, wait
                                  at               a minute!!  I want a
                              gmail.com            divorce!! ... you're not
                                                   Clint Eastwood!!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 17:34 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Grant 
Edwards did opine thusly:

> On 2010-11-16, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> >> spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive
> >> firmware makes it do.
> 
> I'm afraid I'll have to call bullshit on that.  I don't see how some
> bit of PC software can make a drive head move.  The firmware on the
> drive controller board is the only thing that can make the head move.
> Does spinrite claim they _replace_ the drive firmware with their own
> custom version?

Firmware is nothing more than high-level software that wraps low-level 
commands on the drive. High and low are to be taken here within the context of 
a drive and it's controls, so don't be thinking it's on the same level as 
fopen()


SOMETHING makes the head move. That something is the servos, and they are 
under software control (how could it be otherwise?) If the registers and 
commands that control that can be exposed, fine control is possible. The 
firmware does not itself define the only things the head can do, in the same 
way that a file system does nto define the only things that can be written to 
a disk

> Where does Spinrite's claim they can do override drive firmware?

I have not read the site in many years - Gibson's prose is simply too much to 
bear. What I recall being there may not be there any more.

I never said that spinrite claims to override (or as you mention below 
"replace") the firmware. A sensible reading of what I wrote will show I meant 
"bypass"

In any event it's all moot. Gibson is rather renowned for vast flowery 
language and liked to fly off on tangents. spinrite had a very good reputation 
years ago but it's possible that Gibson over-inflated his claims.

Everything I said before is just my understanding of what Gibson claimed his 
software could do. It's hard to prove one way or the other for several 
reasons, first being that the thing is written in assembler.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Mick]

On 16 November 2010 16:20, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:34 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Grant
> Edwards did opine thusly:
>
>> On 2010-11-16, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
>> >> spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive
>> >> firmware makes it do.
>>
>> I'm afraid I'll have to call bullshit on that.  I don't see how some
>> bit of PC software can make a drive head move.  The firmware on the
>> drive controller board is the only thing that can make the head move.
>> Does spinrite claim they _replace_ the drive firmware with their own
>> custom version?
>
> Firmware is nothing more than high-level software that wraps low-level
> commands on the drive. High and low are to be taken here within the context of
> a drive and it's controls, so don't be thinking it's on the same level as
> fopen()
>
>
> SOMETHING makes the head move. That something is the servos, and they are
> under software control (how could it be otherwise?) If the registers and
> commands that control that can be exposed, fine control is possible. The
> firmware does not itself define the only things the head can do, in the same
> way that a file system does nto define the only things that can be written to
> a disk
>
>> Where does Spinrite's claim they can do override drive firmware?
>
> I have not read the site in many years - Gibson's prose is simply too much to
> bear. What I recall being there may not be there any more.
>
> I never said that spinrite claims to override (or as you mention below
> "replace") the firmware. A sensible reading of what I wrote will show I meant
> "bypass"
>
> In any event it's all moot. Gibson is rather renowned for vast flowery
> language and liked to fly off on tangents. spinrite had a very good reputation
> years ago but it's possible that Gibson over-inflated his claims.
>
> Everything I said before is just my understanding of what Gibson claimed his
> software could do. It's hard to prove one way or the other for several
> reasons, first being that the thing is written in assembler.

Gibson's specialism is Marketing.  He's not an IT bod, never has been.
 Most of his writings are spreading FUD and exaggerations which
misinform people who do not know better.

That said I do not know if spinrite is a good product.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 16 November 2010 16:20:37 Alan McKinnon wrote:

> for several reasons, first being that the thing is written in
> assembler.

Ah! Come back 1974 - all is forgiven :-)

-- 
Rgds
Peter.          Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.

[gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-16, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:34 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Grant 
> Edwards did opine thusly:
>
>> On 2010-11-16, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
>> >> spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the drive
>> >> firmware makes it do.
>> 
>> I'm afraid I'll have to call bullshit on that.  I don't see how some
>> bit of PC software can make a drive head move.  The firmware on the
>> drive controller board is the only thing that can make the head move.
>> Does spinrite claim they _replace_ the drive firmware with their own
>> custom version?
>
> Firmware is nothing more than high-level software that wraps
> low-level commands on the drive.

I've no idea what you mean by that.  The firmware is what runs on the
microprocessor on the drive's controller board.  It's what controls
the servo hardware.  It sits between the ATA interface and the drive's
low-level electronics.  The only way to bypass that firmware is to
replace it with something different.

> High and low are to be taken here within the context of a drive and
> it's controls, so don't be thinking it's on the same level as fopen()
>
> SOMETHING makes the head move. That something is the servos, and they
> are under software control (how could it be otherwise?) If the
> registers and commands that control that can be exposed, fine control
> is possible.

Those registers are not exposed by the IDE/ATA interface.

> The firmware does not itself define the only things the head can do,
> in the same way that a file system does nto define the only things
> that can be written to a disk
>
>> Where does Spinrite's claim they can do override drive firmware?
>
> I have not read the site in many years - Gibson's prose is simply too
> much to bear. What I recall being there may not be there any more.
>
> I never said that spinrite claims to override (or as you mention
> below "replace") the firmware. A sensible reading of what I wrote
> will show I meant "bypass"

How are you going to bypass the firmware?  The drive has a
microprocessor that is wired to the servo hardware.  How can you
bypass that microprossor and control the servo hardware using an ATA
interface?

> In any event it's all moot. Gibson is rather renowned for vast
> flowery language and liked to fly off on tangents. spinrite had a
> very good reputation years ago but it's possible that Gibson
> over-inflated his claims.
>
> Everything I said before is just my understanding of what Gibson
> claimed his software could do. It's hard to prove one way or the
> other for several reasons, first being that the thing is written in
> assembler.

I'm not say that Gibson didn't claim his software could do that.  I'm
just saying I don't understand how it could.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm dressing up in
                                  at               an ill-fitting IVY-LEAGUE
                              gmail.com            SUIT!!  Too late...

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [Waaay OT] Defrag tool for windoze

[BRM]

----- Original Message ----

> From: Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Cc: Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com>
> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:34 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Grant 
> Edwards did opine thusly:
> > On 2010-11-16, J. Roeleveld <joost@antarean.org> wrote:
> >  >> spinrite claims to make the head do other things than what the  drive
> > >> firmware makes it do.
> > 
> > I'm afraid I'll  have to call bullshit on that.  I don't see how some
> > bit of PC  software can make a drive head move.  The firmware on the
> > drive  controller board is the only thing that can make the head move.
> > Does  spinrite claim they _replace_ the drive firmware with their own
> > custom  version?
> 
> Firmware is nothing more than high-level software that wraps  low-level 
> commands on the drive. High and low are to be taken here within  the context of 
>
> a drive and it's controls, so don't be thinking it's on the  same level as 
> fopen()
> 
> 
> SOMETHING makes the head move. That  something is the servos, and they are 
> under software control (how could it  be otherwise?) If the registers and 
> commands that control that can be  exposed, fine control is possible. The 
> firmware does not itself define the  only things the head can do, in the same 
> way that a file system does nto  define the only things that can be written to 

> a disk

While I am no hard drive expert - I would suppose that only the firmware would 
have
access to the registers and commands that actually control the internals of the
hard drive; though it could be possible to utilize some lesser published 
functionality
in the firmware, I would find it hard to believe that they would allow the 
internals
of the hard drive to be controlled by anything other then their own software 
(e.g. the firmware).

The primary responsibility of the firmware is to act as the control software and
present the software interfaces that are desired - e.g. support the commands 
recieved
via the hardware bus interface (e.g. PATA, SATA, etc.).

There are probably some extra functions there for diagnostic purposes, but they 
are likely
to be things only known by the manufacturer, things you could only expect 
software from
the manufacturer to support or even possibly be aware of. In such case you 
wouldn't be
bypassing the firmware - just using it in a slightly different, unpublished, 
manufacturer-only
mode - user beware - e.g. firmware update.

Thus I'd have to agree with the BS-call.
 
Again, I am no hard drive expert.

$0.02

Ben