[gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Mick]

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Hi All,

I bought a Dell XPS laptop which seems to have 3 primary partitions.  The 
third partition is where Windows 7 resides, while the second partition is 
flagged as bootable.  The first partition contains some Dell (recovery) tools.  
I am lead to believe that the second partition is the back up partition and is 
meant to be used to restore the OS in the third partition.  This confuses me a 
bit - shouldn't the third partition which houses the OS be flagged as bootable 
instead?

Anyway, I do not want to interfere with the Dell/MS Windows OS way of booting, 
at least until the warranty expires.  What is the recommended way of dual 
booting with Gentoo?  In the past I have either installed GRUB in the MBR and 
chainloaded WinXP from there, or I have installed GRUB in the Linux partition 
boot record and then used NTLDR to chainload grub from the MSWindows 
bootloader.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Willie Wong]

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 03:09:35PM +0000, Mick wrote:
> I bought a Dell XPS laptop which seems to have 3 primary partitions.  The 
> third partition is where Windows 7 resides, while the second partition is 
> flagged as bootable.  The first partition contains some Dell (recovery) tools.  
> I am lead to believe that the second partition is the back up partition and is 
> meant to be used to restore the OS in the third partition.  This confuses me a 
> bit - shouldn't the third partition which houses the OS be flagged as bootable 
> instead?

Take a look at this
http://lifehacker.com/5403100/dual+boot-windows-7-and-ubuntu-in-perfect-harmony
Apparently you can now re-size online partitions with Windows 7 itself. 

Google also suggests you can chainload Windows 7 in the usual way using
grub. 

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Mick]

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On Saturday 13 February 2010 17:13:51 Willie Wong wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 03:09:35PM +0000, Mick wrote:
> > I bought a Dell XPS laptop which seems to have 3 primary partitions.  The
> > third partition is where Windows 7 resides, while the second partition is
> > flagged as bootable.  The first partition contains some Dell (recovery)
> > tools. I am lead to believe that the second partition is the back up
> > partition and is meant to be used to restore the OS in the third
> > partition.  This confuses me a bit - shouldn't the third partition which
> > houses the OS be flagged as bootable instead?
> 
> Take a look at this
> http://lifehacker.com/5403100/dual+boot-windows-7-and-ubuntu-in-perfect-har
> mony Apparently you can now re-size online partitions with Windows 7
>  itself.
> 
> Google also suggests you can chainload Windows 7 in the usual way using
> grub.

Thank you both for your replies.  If I were to choose GRUB to chainload W7 
what should I point it to?  Dell's partition 2 which has the boot flag, or the 
main W7 OS partition 3?

If I were to use W7's NTLDR equivalent - whatever this technology might be - 
will I be able to chainload GRUB from it?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Peter Humphrey]

On Monday 15 February 2010 23:45:23 Mick wrote:

> If I were to [tell] GRUB to chainload W7 [which} should I point it
> to? Dell's partition 2 which has the boot flag, or the main W7 OS
> partition 3?

The one with W7 on it, I should have thought, as that's the one you want 
to start. Why not just try it? And when you find out which partition is 
which, why not set the bootable flag on the right one? I.e. the one with 
grub in it.
 
> If I were to use W7's NTLDR equivalent [...] [would] I be able to
> chainload GRUB from it?

I assume you mean "to" it. (I have a nasty, ever-growing suspicion that 
Americans not only don't know their tenses, but they think backwards - 
either that or I do.)   :-)

Again, the answer's a lemon - suck it and see.

No offence intended.

-- 
Rgds
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Mick]

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On Wednesday 17 February 2010 01:12:08 Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Monday 15 February 2010 23:45:23 Mick wrote:
> > If I were to [tell] GRUB to chainload W7 [which} should I point it
> > to? Dell's partition 2 which has the boot flag, or the main W7 OS
> > partition 3?
> 
> The one with W7 on it, I should have thought, as that's the one you want
> to start. Why not just try it? And when you find out which partition is
> which, why not set the bootable flag on the right one? I.e. the one with
> grub in it.

I am not sure that I would want to do this.  I recall that MSWindows used to 
be and it possible still is rather sensitive with needing the boot flag on its 
partition.  Linux on the other hand is a more advanced OS which does not care 
where the boot flag is.

The NTLDR bootloader is no more since Vista.  A different boot loading 
arrangement exists and I am not sure of its behaviour.

> > If I were to use W7's NTLDR equivalent [...] [would] I be able to
> > chainload GRUB from it?
> 
> I assume you mean "to" it. (I have a nasty, ever-growing suspicion that
> Americans not only don't know their tenses, but they think backwards -
> either that or I do.)   :-)

Nope.  I mean use the Windows 7 bootloader as the primary bootloader to 
chainload GRUB from the Gentoo partition.  The MSWindows stays in the MBR as 
it is now, the GRUB is installed in the Gentoo /boot partition.  MSWindows 
bootloader chainloads GRUB.

> Again, the answer's a lemon - suck it and see.
> 
> No offence intended.

Thanks, none received.  I am not American.  ;-)

PS.  Not that this somehow makes my English good, or that I share your view on 
American grammar.  I have heard worse English being spoken in places like e.g. 
Northampton England, than any places that I happened to have visited in the 
US.  :-))

PPS.  I am making some progress with this (at least in terms of googling) and 
will report back as soon as I have achieved this MSWindows --> chainloading --
> Gentoo thing.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Willie Wong]

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 06:58:16AM +0000, Mick wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 February 2010 01:12:08 Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > On Monday 15 February 2010 23:45:23 Mick wrote:
> > > If I were to [tell] GRUB to chainload W7 [which} should I point it
> > > to? Dell's partition 2 which has the boot flag, or the main W7 OS
> > > partition 3?
> > 
> > The one with W7 on it, I should have thought, as that's the one you want
> > to start. Why not just try it? And when you find out which partition is
> > which, why not set the bootable flag on the right one? I.e. the one with
> > grub in it.
> 
> I am not sure that I would want to do this.  I recall that MSWindows used to 
> be and it possible still is rather sensitive with needing the boot flag on its 
> partition.  Linux on the other hand is a more advanced OS which does not care 
> where the boot flag is.

If you were to go with the GRUB -> W7 route, I don't think just trying
out the two configurations (don't change boot flags, just try each
partition) would've hurt. The worst that I can imagine is an error
thrown about OS not found.

> Nope.  I mean use the Windows 7 bootloader as the primary bootloader to 
> chainload GRUB from the Gentoo partition.  The MSWindows stays in the MBR as 
> it is now, the GRUB is installed in the Gentoo /boot partition.  MSWindows 
> bootloader chainloads GRUB.
> 
I wish you good luck with your project.

> PPS.  I am making some progress with this (at least in terms of googling) and 
> will report back as soon as I have achieved this MSWindows --> chainloading --
> > Gentoo thing.

Please do write a page on the Wiki (or at least a summary of what you
did to this mailing list). This will be some handy information to
have. 

Cheers, 

W

-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Mick]

On 17 February 2010 10:31, Willie Wong <wwong@math.princeton.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 06:58:16AM +0000, Mick wrote:
>> On Wednesday 17 February 2010 01:12:08 Peter Humphrey wrote:
>> > On Monday 15 February 2010 23:45:23 Mick wrote:
>> > > If I were to [tell] GRUB to chainload W7 [which} should I point it
>> > > to? Dell's partition 2 which has the boot flag, or the main W7 OS
>> > > partition 3?
>> >
>> > The one with W7 on it, I should have thought, as that's the one you want
>> > to start. Why not just try it? And when you find out which partition is
>> > which, why not set the bootable flag on the right one? I.e. the one with
>> > grub in it.
>>
>> I am not sure that I would want to do this.  I recall that MSWindows used to
>> be and it possible still is rather sensitive with needing the boot flag on its
>> partition.  Linux on the other hand is a more advanced OS which does not care
>> where the boot flag is.
>
> If you were to go with the GRUB -> W7 route, I don't think just trying
> out the two configurations (don't change boot flags, just try each
> partition) would've hurt. The worst that I can imagine is an error
> thrown about OS not found.
>
>> Nope.  I mean use the Windows 7 bootloader as the primary bootloader to
>> chainload GRUB from the Gentoo partition.  The MSWindows stays in the MBR as
>> it is now, the GRUB is installed in the Gentoo /boot partition.  MSWindows
>> bootloader chainloads GRUB.
>>
> I wish you good luck with your project.
>
>> PPS.  I am making some progress with this (at least in terms of googling) and
>> will report back as soon as I have achieved this MSWindows --> chainloading --
>> > Gentoo thing.
>
> Please do write a page on the Wiki (or at least a summary of what you
> did to this mailing list). This will be some handy information to
> have.

I have now succeeded at achieving what I wanted:  to use the Windows 7
boot manager (bootmgr.exe) which is the successor to NTLDR to
chainload GRUB from it and so leave the Windows installation intact
(at least until the warranty expires) ;-)

I very briefly detail here the steps that I followed - if you need
more please contact me and I will help if I can, or if I get some time
I will sign up to edit a Wiki page.

First the necessary WARNING:  You can render your MSWindows OS
unbootable and without an installation CD things can get hairy.  So
research the necessary steps to recover a borked MSWindows boot system
using the facilities offered by the OEM *before* you start and use
partimage to make a back up, just in case.

There's two or three gotchas that make this more difficult than
chainloading GRUB from NTLDR.exe under Win2k and WinXP:

1.  Disk and partition signatures in the MBR are used by Vista and
Windows 7 to find the active boot partition of MSWindows.  If you move
that partition then its disk offset changes and you start getting
errors like "winload.exe..... is missing or corrupt", when what has
actually happened is that the drive ID (partition signature) has
changed and BCD doesn't know about it.

2.  OEMs use additional partitions to save installation images for
recovery purposes and they often mark these as active boot partitions.
 The boomgr and BCD is consequently installed there as part of the
installation script - but it doesn't clearly tell you this in the BCD
file (that's the new boot.ini) unless you can decipher partition ID
signatures.  Remove that recovery partition to save space and your
MSWindows won't boot again.

3.  Windows 7 uses BitLocker on the IPL in the MBR and this may
introduce additional complications - you mess with the MBR and then
kiss goodbye to booting your MSWindows bloatware again.

My solution worked by editing the BCD file using the native editor
provided by MSWindows, the bcdedit command.  The winload.exe (which
partly replaces NTLDR) is thereafter used normally to launch an image
of the GRUB partition boot record and that of course knows where to
jump to launch your Gentoo.  There's no need for 3rd party boot
managers - there are two or three available like Neogrub which should
do the same job by offering you a GUI, but if you are capable enough
to install Gentoo then you can easily find your way around the BCD
file with bcdedit.exe.

The main steps to achieve this solution are:

1.  Install GRUB in your Linux /boot partition and capture an image of
the partition boot record (it must be unmouted at the time):

dd if=/dev/sda5 of=boot.lnx bs=512 count=1

2.  Copy the boot.lnx file to C:\boot.lnx

3.  Launch cmd.exe as administrator and call bcdedit /v which will
show you something like this:
====================================================
C:\Windows\system32>bcdedit /v

Windows Boot Manager
--------------------
identifier              {9dea862c-5cdd-4e70-acc1-f32b344d4795}
device                  partition=\Device\HarddiskVolume2
path                    \bootmgr
description             Windows Boot Manager
locale                  en-US
inherit                 {7ea2e1ac-2e61-4728-aaa3-896d9d0a9f0e}
default                 {fda5ebf3-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
resumeobject            {5744906c-0bf4-11df-8e08-0026b920b49c}
displayorder            {fda5ebf3-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
                        {fda5ebf6-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
toolsdisplayorder       {b2721d73-1db4-4c62-bf78-c548a880142d}
timeout                 3

Windows Boot Loader
-------------------
identifier              {fda5ebf3-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
device                  partition=C:
path                    \Windows\system32\winload.exe
description             Windows 7 Home Premium
locale                  en-US
recoverysequence        {5744906e-0bf4-11df-8e08-0026b920b49c}
recoveryenabled         Yes
osdevice                partition=C:
systemroot              \Windows
resumeobject            {5b312091-116a-11df-8b54-806e6f6e6963}
====================================================

The first entry is the bootmgr, the second is MSWindows OS partition.
First make a back up of the BCD file:

C:\Windows\system32>bcdedit /export C:\BCD_backup

Then create a new entry using bcdedit for the Linux boot image, by entering:
====================================================
bcdedit /create /d "Gentoo Linux2" /application BOOTSECTOR
The entry {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} was successfully created.
====================================================

Cut and paste the partition ID in all the subsequent commands:
====================================================
bcdedit /set {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} device boot

bcdedit /set {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} path /boot.lnx

bcdedit /set {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} locale en-US
====================================================
If you don't get "The operation completed successfully." you know
you've done something wrong.

Then set it as last in the menu:
====================================================
bcdedit /displayorder {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} /addlast
The operation completed successfully.
====================================================

and increase the delay before the menu automatically boots the default
(leave the default as MSWindows until you prove that your Linux system
can boot):
====================================================
 bcdedit /timeout 10
====================================================

Then run C:\Windows\system32>bcdedit /v to see what you have just
made, at the bottom of the menu:
====================================================
Real-mode Boot Sector
---------------------
identifier              {fda5ebf6-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
device                  boot
path                    \boot.lnx
description             Gentoo Linux
locale                  en-US
====================================================

Now, this may not boot if your MSWindows boot drive is different to
the MSWindows OS partition (as was in my case).  So, we need to point
the bootmgr at the partition where the linux boot image resides, in my
case C:
====================================================
bcdedit /set {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} device partition=C:
====================================================

Use the /v option to check all is good and reboot the machine.
Hopefully, you will be greeted with a GRUB splash.  :-)

HTH.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Willie Wong]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:51:21PM +0000, Mick wrote:
> > Please do write a page on the Wiki (or at least a summary of what you
> > did to this mailing list). This will be some handy information to
> > have.
> 
> I have now succeeded at achieving what I wanted:  to use the Windows 7
> boot manager (bootmgr.exe) which is the successor to NTLDR to
> chainload GRUB from it and so leave the Windows installation intact
> (at least until the warranty expires) ;-)
<rest snipped>

Wow. Awesome. Posts like this are why I absolutely love this mailing
list. 

Thanks for putting this together. 

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Peter Ruskin]

On Sunday 28 February 2010 23:51:21 Mick wrote:
> I have now succeeded at achieving what I wanted:  to use the
> Windows 7 boot manager (bootmgr.exe) which is the successor to
> NTLDR to chainload GRUB from it and so leave the Windows
> installation intact (at least until the warranty expires) ;-)
>
> I very briefly detail here the steps that I followed - if you
> need more please contact me and I will help if I can, or if I get
> some time I will sign up to edit a Wiki page.
>
> First the necessary WARNING:  You can render your MSWindows OS
> unbootable and without an installation CD things can get hairy.
>  So research the necessary steps to recover a borked MSWindows
> boot system using the facilities offered by the OEM *before* you
> start and use partimage to make a back up, just in case.
>
> There's two or three gotchas that make this more difficult than
> chainloading GRUB from NTLDR.exe under Win2k and WinXP:
>
> 1.  Disk and partition signatures in the MBR are used by Vista
> and Windows 7 to find the active boot partition of MSWindows.  If
> you move that partition then its disk offset changes and you
> start getting errors like "winload.exe..... is missing or
> corrupt", when what has actually happened is that the drive ID
> (partition signature) has changed and BCD doesn't know about it.
>
> 2.  OEMs use additional partitions to save installation images
> for recovery purposes and they often mark these as active boot
> partitions. The boomgr and BCD is consequently installed there as
> part of the installation script - but it doesn't clearly tell you
> this in the BCD file (that's the new boot.ini) unless you can
> decipher partition ID signatures.  Remove that recovery partition
> to save space and your MSWindows won't boot again.
>
> 3.  Windows 7 uses BitLocker on the IPL in the MBR and this may
> introduce additional complications - you mess with the MBR and
> then kiss goodbye to booting your MSWindows bloatware again.
>
> My solution worked by editing the BCD file using the native
> editor provided by MSWindows, the bcdedit command.  The
> winload.exe (which partly replaces NTLDR) is thereafter used
> normally to launch an image of the GRUB partition boot record and
> that of course knows where to jump to launch your Gentoo.
>  There's no need for 3rd party boot managers - there are two or
> three available like Neogrub which should do the same job by
> offering you a GUI, but if you are capable enough to install
> Gentoo then you can easily find your way around the BCD file with
> bcdedit.exe.
>
> The main steps to achieve this solution are:
>
> 1.  Install GRUB in your Linux /boot partition and capture an
> image of the partition boot record (it must be unmouted at the
> time):
>
> dd if=/dev/sda5 of=boot.lnx bs=512 count=1
>
> 2.  Copy the boot.lnx file to C:\boot.lnx
>
> 3.  Launch cmd.exe as administrator and call bcdedit /v which
> will show you something like this:
> ====================================================
> C:\Windows\system32>bcdedit /v
>
> Windows Boot Manager
> --------------------
> identifier              {9dea862c-5cdd-4e70-acc1-f32b344d4795}
> device                  partition=\Device\HarddiskVolume2
> path                    \bootmgr
> description             Windows Boot Manager
> locale                  en-US
> inherit                 {7ea2e1ac-2e61-4728-aaa3-896d9d0a9f0e}
> default                 {fda5ebf3-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
> resumeobject            {5744906c-0bf4-11df-8e08-0026b920b49c}
> displayorder            {fda5ebf3-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
>                         {fda5ebf6-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
> toolsdisplayorder       {b2721d73-1db4-4c62-bf78-c548a880142d}
> timeout                 3
>
> Windows Boot Loader
> -------------------
> identifier              {fda5ebf3-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
> device                  partition=C:
> path                    \Windows\system32\winload.exe
> description             Windows 7 Home Premium
> locale                  en-US
> recoverysequence        {5744906e-0bf4-11df-8e08-0026b920b49c}
> recoveryenabled         Yes
> osdevice                partition=C:
> systemroot              \Windows
> resumeobject            {5b312091-116a-11df-8b54-806e6f6e6963}
> ====================================================
>
> The first entry is the bootmgr, the second is MSWindows OS
> partition. First make a back up of the BCD file:
>
> C:\Windows\system32>bcdedit /export C:\BCD_backup
>
> Then create a new entry using bcdedit for the Linux boot image,
> by entering: ====================================================
> bcdedit /create /d "Gentoo Linux2" /application BOOTSECTOR
> The entry {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} was successfully
> created. ====================================================
>
> Cut and paste the partition ID in all the subsequent commands:
> ====================================================
> bcdedit /set {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} device boot
>
> bcdedit /set {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} path
> /boot.lnx
>
> bcdedit /set {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} locale en-US
> ====================================================
> If you don't get "The operation completed successfully." you know
> you've done something wrong.
>
> Then set it as last in the menu:
> ====================================================
> bcdedit /displayorder {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
> /addlast The operation completed successfully.
> ====================================================
>
> and increase the delay before the menu automatically boots the
> default (leave the default as MSWindows until you prove that your
> Linux system can boot):
> ====================================================
>  bcdedit /timeout 10
> ====================================================
>
> Then run C:\Windows\system32>bcdedit /v to see what you have just
> made, at the bottom of the menu:
> ====================================================
> Real-mode Boot Sector
> ---------------------
> identifier              {fda5ebf6-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
> device                  boot
> path                    \boot.lnx
> description             Gentoo Linux
> locale                  en-US
> ====================================================
>
> Now, this may not boot if your MSWindows boot drive is different
> to the MSWindows OS partition (as was in my case).  So, we need
> to point the bootmgr at the partition where the linux boot image
> resides, in my case C:
> ====================================================
> bcdedit /set {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} device
> partition=C: ====================================================
>
> Use the /v option to check all is good and reboot the machine.
> Hopefully, you will be greeted with a GRUB splash.  :-)

Thanks for the howto, Mick.  I followed it on my Windows Vista Home 
Premium 64; got "The operation completed successfully" all the way 
through, but on reboot I don't get a boot menu.

This doesn't matter much to me at the moment, as I use Acronis OSS 
Selector for boot manager, but this doesn't work on Windows 7, so 
my free update to Windows 7 is gathering dust.

-- 
Peter
========================================================================
Gentoo Linux: Portage 2.2_rc63			kernel-2.6.32-gentoo-r5
AMD Phenom(tm) 9950 Quad-Core Processor		gcc(Gentoo: 4.4.3)
KDE: 3.5.10					Qt: 3.3.8b
========================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Mick]

On 1 March 2010 15:04, Peter Ruskin <peter.ruskin@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> On Sunday 28 February 2010 23:51:21 Mick wrote:
>> I have now succeeded at achieving what I wanted:  to use the
>> Windows 7 boot manager (bootmgr.exe) which is the successor to
>> NTLDR to chainload GRUB from it and so leave the Windows
>> installation intact (at least until the warranty expires) ;-)
[snip ...]

> Thanks for the howto, Mick.  I followed it on my Windows Vista Home
> Premium 64; got "The operation completed successfully" all the way
> through, but on reboot I don't get a boot menu.

Can you please post your partition table (cfdisk, or parted will do),
let me know which is your Gentoo /boot partition if it is not obvious
and the drive letters as understood by Vista when it is running.  A
screenshot of gparted will help (email off list to keep the bandwidth
down) because it also shows the Labels.

> This doesn't matter much to me at the moment, as I use Acronis OSS
> Selector for boot manager, but this doesn't work on Windows 7, so
> my free update to Windows 7 is gathering dust.

As long as the upgrade to Windows 7 does not mess up the MS boot
partition then achieving this in Vista will be a good dry run for when
you install Windows 7.  However, I am not sure that you will be able
to achieve this test run while Acronis is managing your boot session.
My method implies that you use the native MSWindows boot manager.

========================================================================
> Gentoo Linux: Portage 2.2_rc63                  kernel-2.6.32-gentoo-r5
> AMD Phenom(tm) 9950 Quad-Core Processor         gcc(Gentoo: 4.4.3)
> KDE: 3.5.10                                     Qt: 3.3.8b
> ========================================================================
>
>



-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Mick]

On 1 March 2010 18:09, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1 March 2010 15:04, Peter Ruskin <peter.ruskin@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

>> Thanks for the howto, Mick.  I followed it on my Windows Vista Home
>> Premium 64; got "The operation completed successfully" all the way
>> through, but on reboot I don't get a boot menu.
>
> Can you please post your partition table (cfdisk, or parted will do),
> let me know which is your Gentoo /boot partition if it is not obvious
> and the drive letters as understood by Vista when it is running.  A
> screenshot of gparted will help (email off list to keep the bandwidth
> down) because it also shows the Labels.

OK, from your partition scheme (received off list) I can see that
Vista is the first primary partition and your installation does not
have a separate boot partition for bootmgr.exe and BCD.  This makes
things easier for multibooting and upgrading to Win7.

>> This doesn't matter much to me at the moment, as I use Acronis OSS
>> Selector for boot manager, but this doesn't work on Windows 7, so
>> my free update to Windows 7 is gathering dust.
>
> As long as the upgrade to Windows 7 does not mess up the MS boot
> partition then achieving this in Vista will be a good dry run for when
> you install Windows 7.  However, I am not sure that you will be able
> to achieve this test run while Acronis is managing your boot session.
> My method implies that you use the native MSWindows boot manager.

I'ved had a quick look at the Acronis OSS product.  There is one thing
worse than the MSWindows boot managers and that is other proprietary
boot managers which follow the Microsoft design philosophy!  Ha, ha!
:-)  Unfortunately, Acronis OSS is rather intrusive in how it manages
the boot process.  It moves all Vista boot files into a separate
folder and then it takes over the boot process with its own
(undocumented?) mechanisms.  Also, it does the same with other OS'
boot partitions (i.e. writes files in their partitions and moves
things around).

If you wish to move on from Vista to Win7, or want to first try out my
suggested boot method, then I suspect that the safest approach would
be to first uninstall the Acronis OSS.  Hopefully, it will
sympathetically restore the original Vista boot files and MBR and get
itself out of the way.  If not, which is what I suspect will happen,
then you may end up with an unbootable Vista.  Either way, I wouldn't
worry about your Linux system because it will be easily made bootable
again by installing GRUB in the MBR with a Live CD.

I can see the following options open to you:

1.  Repair Vista:

Essentially you want to restore Vista to its original condition as it
was before you installed Acronis OSS.  Follow the Acronis instructions
and uninstall Acronis, then boot into Vista.  If Acronis uninstalls
cleanly and restore the MBR you should be able to boot into Vista and
follow my instructions for setting up multibooting.  If the Acronis
instructions ask you to use a Vista CD and run Startup Repair then it
means that it will probably need to reinstall the Vista bootloader
code (IPL) in the MBR and I suspect it may also rebuild its BCD file.
If not and Vista does not boot, then you need to use your Vista CD to
auto-repair your Vista boot system as detailed here:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927391

or use bootrec.exe as described here:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927392

or if you know what you need to do, run bootrec.exe /fixmbr,
bootrec.exe /fixboot and finally BCDedit.exe to do it manually.

Then follow my instructions and you should be able to multiboot fine.
BTW, because your Vista partition is both your MSWindows boot and
system partition, your do not need to redefine the boot device with a
drive letter C: as in my last step.  Just define it once only as per:

bcdedit /set {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} device boot

and thereafter Vista bootmgr.exe should know where to look into to
find boot.lnx, i.e. in your first NTFS partition.

2.  Upgrade straight to Win7:

If you ask it to do a clean installation in your first partition
(rather than back up all Vista files to allow you to downgrade to
Vista later should you wish to) then it will format the Vista
partition, blow away everything including the Acronis boot code from
the MBR and install Win7.  If Win7 asks you to create a separate boot
partition, then you say No (because you haven't any spare partitions
and it may decide to wipe one of your Linux partitions and use that
instead!)  When it completes installing Win7 in your first primary
partition you boot into it and follow my instructions with the bcdedit
command.

3.  If you are not worried about warranty claims and what not, then
you can install GRUB in the MBR and chainload Vista or Win7 from it,
after you repair Vista or install Win7.

BTW, disabling/deactivating Acronis OSS won't work, because Vista
requires to access the original MBR code with partition IDs to know
which partition to jump to.  I am not entirely sure what deactivating
the Acronis OSS does, because it is still running from the MBR and it
may or may not be able to interpret the BCD partition IDs.  Hope this
helps.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Peter Ruskin]

On Tuesday 02 March 2010 14:31:46 Mick wrote:
> OK, from your partition scheme (received off list) I can see that
> Vista is the first primary partition and your installation does
> not have a separate boot partition for bootmgr.exe and BCD.  This
> makes things easier for multibooting and upgrading to Win7.
>
> >> This doesn't matter much to me at the moment, as I use Acronis
> >> OSS Selector for boot manager, but this doesn't work on
> >> Windows 7, so my free update to Windows 7 is gathering dust.
> >
> > As long as the upgrade to Windows 7 does not mess up the MS
> > boot partition then achieving this in Vista will be a good dry
> > run for when you install Windows 7.  However, I am not sure
> > that you will be able to achieve this test run while Acronis is
> > managing your boot session. My method implies that you use the
> > native MSWindows boot manager.
>
> I'ved had a quick look at the Acronis OSS product.  There is one
> thing worse than the MSWindows boot managers and that is other
> proprietary boot managers which follow the Microsoft design
> philosophy!  Ha, ha!
>
> :-)  Unfortunately, Acronis OSS is rather intrusive in how it
> : manages
> the boot process.  It moves all Vista boot files into a separate
> folder and then it takes over the boot process with its own
> (undocumented?) mechanisms.  Also, it does the same with other
> OS' boot partitions (i.e. writes files in their partitions and
> moves things around).
>
> If you wish to move on from Vista to Win7, or want to first try
> out my suggested boot method, then I suspect that the safest
> approach would be to first uninstall the Acronis OSS.  Hopefully,
> it will sympathetically restore the original Vista boot files and
> MBR and get itself out of the way.  If not, which is what I
> suspect will happen, then you may end up with an unbootable
> Vista.  Either way, I wouldn't worry about your Linux system
> because it will be easily made bootable again by installing GRUB
> in the MBR with a Live CD.
>
> I can see the following options open to you:
>
> 1.  Repair Vista:
>
> Essentially you want to restore Vista to its original condition
> as it was before you installed Acronis OSS.  Follow the Acronis
> instructions and uninstall Acronis, then boot into Vista.  If
> Acronis uninstalls cleanly and restore the MBR you should be able
> to boot into Vista and follow my instructions for setting up
> multibooting.  If the Acronis instructions ask you to use a Vista
> CD and run Startup Repair then it means that it will probably
> need to reinstall the Vista bootloader code (IPL) in the MBR and
> I suspect it may also rebuild its BCD file. If not and Vista does
> not boot, then you need to use your Vista CD to auto-repair your
> Vista boot system as detailed here:
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927391
>
> or use bootrec.exe as described here:
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927392
>
> or if you know what you need to do, run bootrec.exe /fixmbr,
> bootrec.exe /fixboot and finally BCDedit.exe to do it manually.
>
> Then follow my instructions and you should be able to multiboot
> fine. BTW, because your Vista partition is both your MSWindows
> boot and system partition, your do not need to redefine the boot
> device with a drive letter C: as in my last step.  Just define it
> once only as per:
>
> bcdedit /set {fda5ebf7-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117} device boot
>
> and thereafter Vista bootmgr.exe should know where to look into
> to find boot.lnx, i.e. in your first NTFS partition.
>
> 2.  Upgrade straight to Win7:
>
> If you ask it to do a clean installation in your first partition
> (rather than back up all Vista files to allow you to downgrade to
> Vista later should you wish to) then it will format the Vista
> partition, blow away everything including the Acronis boot code
> from the MBR and install Win7.  If Win7 asks you to create a
> separate boot partition, then you say No (because you haven't any
> spare partitions and it may decide to wipe one of your Linux
> partitions and use that instead!)  When it completes installing
> Win7 in your first primary partition you boot into it and follow
> my instructions with the bcdedit command.
>
> 3.  If you are not worried about warranty claims and what not,
> then you can install GRUB in the MBR and chainload Vista or Win7
> from it, after you repair Vista or install Win7.
>
> BTW, disabling/deactivating Acronis OSS won't work, because Vista
> requires to access the original MBR code with partition IDs to
> know which partition to jump to.  I am not entirely sure what
> deactivating the Acronis OSS does, because it is still running
> from the MBR and it may or may not be able to interpret the BCD
> partition IDs.  Hope this helps.

Thanks for your help, Mick.  Here's the bcdedit /v before I started:
C:\Windows\System32\bcdedit /v >C:\bcdedit-orig.txt

Windows Boot Loader
-------------------
identifier              {f3aeff8d-e9d1-11de-8e2e-ca31a6066886}
device                  partition=C:
path                    \Windows\system32\winload.exe
description             Microsoft Windows Vista
locale                  en-US
inherit                 {6efb52bf-1766-41db-a6b3-0ee5eff72bd7}
osdevice                partition=C:
systemroot              \Windows
resumeobject            {f3aeff8e-e9d1-11de-8e2e-ca31a6066886}
nx                      OptIn

Resume from Hibernate
---------------------
identifier              {f3aeff8e-e9d1-11de-8e2e-ca31a6066886}
device                  partition=C:
path                    \Windows\system32\winresume.exe
description             Windows Resume Application
locale                  en-US
inherit                 {1afa9c49-16ab-4a5c-901b-212802da9460}
filedevice              partition=C:
filepath                \hiberfil.sys
debugoptionenabled      No

Windows Memory Tester
---------------------
identifier              {b2721d73-1db4-4c62-bf78-c548a880142d}
device                  partition=C:
path                    \boot\memtest.exe
description             Windows Memory Diagnostic
locale                  en-US
inherit                 {7ea2e1ac-2e61-4728-aaa3-896d9d0a9f0e}
badmemoryaccess         Yes

And here it is after I followed your procedure:
C:\Windows\System32\bcdedit /v >C:\bcdedit.txt

Windows Boot Manager
--------------------
identifier              {9dea862c-5cdd-4e70-acc1-f32b344d4795}
displayorder            {150a4189-2608-11df-b94d-00248cc04424}
timeout                 10

Real-mode Boot Sector
---------------------
identifier              {150a4189-2608-11df-b94d-00248cc04424}
device                  boot
path                    C:\linux.bin
description             Gentoo Linux
locale                  en-US

After reboot it reverts to the original - just as well, because the 
Windows Boot Manager looks suspect to me.

-- 
Peter
========================================================================
Gentoo Linux: Portage 2.2_rc63			kernel-2.6.32-gentoo-r5
AMD Phenom(tm) 9950 Quad-Core Processor		gcc(Gentoo: 4.4.3)
KDE: 3.5.10					Qt: 3.3.8b
========================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Mick]

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On Tuesday 02 March 2010 23:31:16 Peter Ruskin wrote:

> Thanks for your help, Mick.  

You're welcome.  Sorry it took me some time to get to it:

> Here's the bcdedit /v before I started:
> C:\Windows\System32\bcdedit /v >C:\bcdedit-orig.txt

It may be better to use the /export function to back up the BCD file.

> Windows Boot Loader
> -------------------
[snip ...]

> 
> Resume from Hibernate
> ---------------------
[snip ...]

> Windows Memory Tester
> ---------------------
[snip ...]

I can't see in there your MSWindows Boot Manager entry.  This BCD will not be 
able to boot MSWindows natively, or chainload Linux from it ... you'll need to 
repair it with your Vista CD as I suggested in the previous message.

> And here it is after I followed your procedure:
> C:\Windows\System32\bcdedit /v >C:\bcdedit.txt
> 
> Windows Boot Manager
> --------------------
> identifier              {9dea862c-5cdd-4e70-acc1-f32b344d4795}
> displayorder            {150a4189-2608-11df-b94d-00248cc04424}
> timeout                 10

I suspect that's not enough to load the boot manager.  Compare it to my entry:
==================================
Windows Boot Manager
--------------------
identifier              {9dea862c-5cdd-4e70-acc1-f32b344d4795}
device                  partition=\Device\HarddiskVolume2
path                    \bootmgr
description             Windows Boot Manager
locale                  en-US
inherit                 {7ea2e1ac-2e61-4728-aaa3-896d9d0a9f0e}
default                 {fda5ebf3-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
resumeobject            {5744906c-0bf4-11df-8e08-0026b920b49c}
displayorder            {fda5ebf3-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
                        {fda5ebf6-119b-11df-969c-f924691e8117}
toolsdisplayorder       {b2721d73-1db4-4c62-bf78-c548a880142d}
timeout                 3
==================================

> Real-mode Boot Sector
> ---------------------
> identifier              {150a4189-2608-11df-b94d-00248cc04424}
> device                  boot
> path                    C:\linux.bin
> description             Gentoo Linux
> locale                  en-US

That's good, but I suspect it won't work because your Boot Manager entry is 
not correct.  

> After reboot it reverts to the original - just as well, because the
> Windows Boot Manager looks suspect to me.

Yes, it looks dodgy to me too.  If it reverts to the original then that means 
that you are not actually editing the BCD file that is being used for booting.  
I suspect that what's happening here is that Acronis OSS has taken over the 
MBR and the boot files (I think it saves them in a BOOTWIZ folder or something 
similar).  So the BCD file you are editing is not the one Acronis is using.  
My method implies that you have restored your Vista to its original state as 
far as MBR and MSWindows boot files are concerned.  So, for it to work you 
will need to uninstal Acronis OSS I'm afraid and repair the start up files as 
I described in my previous email.

Alternatively, you may want to try using bcdedit to edit the correct BCD file,  
*but* I am not sure that Acronis will allow you to do that (it probably 
altered the access rights to it, that's why a reboot shows up the original 
file).
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 17 February 2010 06:58:16 Mick wrote:

> Nope.  I mean use the Windows 7 bootloader as the primary bootloader
> to chainload GRUB from the Gentoo partition.  The MSWindows stays in
> the MBR as it is now, the GRUB is installed in the Gentoo /boot
> partition.  MSWindows bootloader chainloads GRUB.

Ah, I see. I haven't heard of anyone doing it that way round before.

-- 
Rgds
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 17 February 2010 06:58:16 Mick wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 February 2010 01:12:08 Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > No offence intended.
> 
> Thanks, none received.  I am not American.  ;-)

Well, having just gratuitously insulted an entire nation, I'd better be 
on my best behaviour now in case I want to ask for help. I can think of 
a couple of problems I could do with some help with, too...

-- 
Rgds
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Nick Cunningham]

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On 15 February 2010 23:45, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday 13 February 2010 17:13:51 Willie Wong wrote:
> > On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 03:09:35PM +0000, Mick wrote:
> > > I bought a Dell XPS laptop which seems to have 3 primary partitions.
>  The
> > > third partition is where Windows 7 resides, while the second partition
> is
> > > flagged as bootable.  The first partition contains some Dell (recovery)
> > > tools. I am lead to believe that the second partition is the back up
> > > partition and is meant to be used to restore the OS in the third
> > > partition.  This confuses me a bit - shouldn't the third partition
> which
> > > houses the OS be flagged as bootable instead?
> >
> > Take a look at this
> >
> http://lifehacker.com/5403100/dual+boot-windows-7-and-ubuntu-in-perfect-har
> > mony Apparently you can now re-size online partitions with Windows 7
> >  itself.
> >
> > Google also suggests you can chainload Windows 7 in the usual way using
> > grub.
>
> Thank you both for your replies.  If I were to choose GRUB to chainload W7
> what should I point it to?  Dell's partition 2 which has the boot flag, or
> the
> main W7 OS partition 3?
>
> If I were to use W7's NTLDR equivalent - whatever this technology might be
> -
> will I be able to chainload GRUB from it?
> --
> Regards,
> Mick
>

Take a look at EasyBCD: http://neosmart.net/forums/showthread.php?t=642
The latest betas of version 2 allow you to use the Vista/Win7 bootloader to
chainload grub and so boot linux. Its pretty easy to setup aswell as all you
do is tell it to add an entry to your bootloader and then direct it to your
/boot partition that has grub installed.
Of course its not as pretty as some of the things you can do in grub/grub2,
but it does work.

The only downside is that you need to register on their forums in order to
download the latest betas :(

- Nick


-- 

Pablo Picasso<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/p/pablo_picasso.html>
- "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."

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Re: [gentoo-user] Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[Mick]

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Thanks Nick,

On Wednesday 17 February 2010 09:53:27 Nick Cunningham wrote:

> Take a look at EasyBCD: http://neosmart.net/forums/showthread.php?t=642
> The latest betas of version 2 allow you to use the Vista/Win7 bootloader to
> chainload grub and so boot linux. Its pretty easy to setup aswell as all
>  you do is tell it to add an entry to your bootloader and then direct it to
>  your /boot partition that has grub installed.
> Of course its not as pretty as some of the things you can do in grub/grub2,
> but it does work.
> 
> The only downside is that you need to register on their forums in order to
> download the latest betas :(

... or, perhaps use BCDedit?

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc709667(WS.10).aspx

Time allowing I'll have a go at installing Gentoo this weekend and report 
back.  I think that it'll be a straight forward exercise of using dd to copy 
the Gentoo partition boot record (where I will have installed GRUB) to a file 
and then save this file in Windows 7 and point to it from C:\boot\bcd.  The 
latter seems to be the Windows 7 equivalent to WinXP's boot.ini.  Anyway, I 
better stop here before someone reading this M/L think they've come across a 
Microsoft conspiracy, or even worse the M/L server got infected!  :-))
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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[gentoo-user] Re: Dual booting Dell with Windows 7

[walt]

Mick wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I bought a Dell XPS laptop which seems to have 3 primary partitions.  The 
> third partition is where Windows 7 resides, while the second partition is 
> flagged as bootable.  The first partition contains some Dell (recovery) tools.  
> I am lead to believe that the second partition is the back up partition and is 
> meant to be used to restore the OS in the third partition.  This confuses me a 
> bit - shouldn't the third partition which houses the OS be flagged as bootable 
> instead?
> 
> Anyway, I do not want to interfere with the Dell/MS Windows OS way of booting, 
> at least until the warranty expires.  What is the recommended way of dual 
> booting with Gentoo?  In the past I have either installed GRUB in the MBR and 
> chainloaded WinXP from there, or I have installed GRUB in the Linux partition 
> boot record and then used NTLDR to chainload grub from the MSWindows 
> bootloader.

Not the answer you asked for, but I'm running the public beta of Win7 on
virtualbox, and it works so well that leaving the original install on the
machine seems like a waste of space to me.  Maybe the fancy-shmancy desktop
with the transparent windows won't work quite as well on virtualbox, but I
don't use Windows anyway, unless I'm forced.