[gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[tuxic]

Hi,

currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
the application I had on my old system.

Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
(or yesterday...it depends...;) .

When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
needs to be transfered to the SSD.

The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.

Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?

And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
to the SSD and do not miss anything?

Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
What is recommended here?

Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!

Cheers! And stay heathy!
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Mark Knecht]

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On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:13 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
> the application I had on my old system.
>
> Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
> (or yesterday...it depends...;) .
>
> When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
> needs to be transfered to the SSD.
>
> The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
>
> Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
> in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
>
> And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
> to the SSD and do not miss anything?
>
> Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
> greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
> What is recommended here?
>
> Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
>
> Cheers! And stay heathy!
> Meino
>

Just my 2 cents...

If the SSD cannot survive having data copied to it there's something
seriously wrong with the drive. I don't think you should be overly worried
about this but I do understand it's new technology so you want to be
careful. Bravo for that.

Possibly to ease your concerns a little bit use smartctl -a /dev/SSD and
get to know your drive that way. You can most likely watch the drive temp
as recorded by the drive.

Best wishes,
Mark

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Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[tuxic]

On 04/05 10:33, Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:13 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
> > the application I had on my old system.
> >
> > Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
> > (or yesterday...it depends...;) .
> >
> > When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
> > needs to be transfered to the SSD.
> >
> > The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
> >
> > Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
> > in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
> >
> > And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
> > to the SSD and do not miss anything?
> >
> > Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
> > greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
> > What is recommended here?
> >
> > Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
> >
> > Cheers! And stay heathy!
> > Meino
> >
> 
> Just my 2 cents...
> 
> If the SSD cannot survive having data copied to it there's something
> seriously wrong with the drive. I don't think you should be overly worried
> about this but I do understand it's new technology so you want to be
> careful. Bravo for that.
> 
> Possibly to ease your concerns a little bit use smartctl -a /dev/SSD and
> get to know your drive that way. You can most likely watch the drive temp
> as recorded by the drive.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Mark

Hi Mark,

Yes, if a SSD could not survive writes, something is wrong with the
SSD. But that was not my point.
Copying about 100GB (roughly guessed) data in one go to the SSD is a
use case, which is not common. And therefore possibly not taken into
account by the company, which create that SSD.
SSDs can create noticeable heat (mine has a minimalistic heat
spreader therefore. Faster SSDs come with a substancial heatspreader).

Smartctl will report problems when they are already there.
I want to prevent problems beforehand.

So -- does copying about 100 GB creates so much heat in the sillicone
of the SSD, that it ages more than preferred?

And if so, how can I prevent it by appluing other techniques to copy
the data? 
See additional questions in my initial posting for that.

Thanks a lot for any helpful advice in advance!
Cheers!
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Dale]

tuxic@posteo.de wrote:
> On 04/05 10:33, Mark Knecht wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:13 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
>>> the application I had on my old system.
>>>
>>> Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
>>> (or yesterday...it depends...;) .
>>>
>>> When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
>>> needs to be transfered to the SSD.
>>>
>>> The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
>>>
>>> Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
>>> in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
>>>
>>> And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
>>> to the SSD and do not miss anything?
>>>
>>> Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
>>> greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
>>> What is recommended here?
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
>>>
>>> Cheers! And stay heathy!
>>> Meino
>>>
>> Just my 2 cents...
>>
>> If the SSD cannot survive having data copied to it there's something
>> seriously wrong with the drive. I don't think you should be overly worried
>> about this but I do understand it's new technology so you want to be
>> careful. Bravo for that.
>>
>> Possibly to ease your concerns a little bit use smartctl -a /dev/SSD and
>> get to know your drive that way. You can most likely watch the drive temp
>> as recorded by the drive.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Mark
> Hi Mark,
>
> Yes, if a SSD could not survive writes, something is wrong with the
> SSD. But that was not my point.
> Copying about 100GB (roughly guessed) data in one go to the SSD is a
> use case, which is not common. And therefore possibly not taken into
> account by the company, which create that SSD.
> SSDs can create noticeable heat (mine has a minimalistic heat
> spreader therefore. Faster SSDs come with a substancial heatspreader).
>
> Smartctl will report problems when they are already there.
> I want to prevent problems beforehand.
>
> So -- does copying about 100 GB creates so much heat in the sillicone
> of the SSD, that it ages more than preferred?
>
> And if so, how can I prevent it by appluing other techniques to copy
> the data? 
> See additional questions in my initial posting for that.
>
> Thanks a lot for any helpful advice in advance!
> Cheers!
> Meino
>

If you are using rsync or cp -u you could start the copy then stop at it
certain points to let the SSD cool, then start it again.  It will
basically pick up where it left off.  You could monitor the temps while
doing that.  I use smartctrl and then grep temp on the end so I only get
the temp readings.  Something similar to this might help:


smartctl -a /dev/sdd | grep Temp


Another option, temporarily place a fan close to the drive to help cool
it.  Once you get everything copied, remove the fan and carry on. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Mark Knecht]

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On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:54 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
>
> On 04/05 10:33, Mark Knecht wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:13 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
> > > the application I had on my old system.
> > >
> > > Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
> > > (or yesterday...it depends...;) .
> > >
> > > When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
> > > needs to be transfered to the SSD.
> > >
> > > The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
> > >
> > > Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
> > > in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
> > >
> > > And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
> > > to the SSD and do not miss anything?
> > >
> > > Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
> > > greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
> > > What is recommended here?
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
> > >
> > > Cheers! And stay heathy!
> > > Meino
> > >
> >
> > Just my 2 cents...
> >
> > If the SSD cannot survive having data copied to it there's something
> > seriously wrong with the drive. I don't think you should be overly
worried
> > about this but I do understand it's new technology so you want to be
> > careful. Bravo for that.
> >
> > Possibly to ease your concerns a little bit use smartctl -a /dev/SSD and
> > get to know your drive that way. You can most likely watch the drive
temp
> > as recorded by the drive.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Mark
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> Yes, if a SSD could not survive writes, something is wrong with the
> SSD. But that was not my point.
> Copying about 100GB (roughly guessed) data in one go to the SSD is a
> use case, which is not common. And therefore possibly not taken into
> account by the company, which create that SSD.
> SSDs can create noticeable heat (mine has a minimalistic heat
> spreader therefore. Faster SSDs come with a substancial heatspreader).
>
> Smartctl will report problems when they are already there.
> I want to prevent problems beforehand.
>
> So -- does copying about 100 GB creates so much heat in the sillicone
> of the SSD, that it ages more than preferred?
>
> And if so, how can I prevent it by appluing other techniques to copy
> the data?
> See additional questions in my initial posting for that.
>
> Thanks a lot for any helpful advice in advance!
> Cheers!
> Meino
>

If copying 100GB causes too much heat watching smartctl will show you
before it gets too hot and you can stop it.

100GB of data as a copy is only 1 write cycle to any given data block on
the drive. It's not going to matter how you get it there but something like
rsync _might_ allow a restart in the middle of the copy if your rsync
operation was to fail part way through.

I don't personally think there's anything at all for you to worry about
with this but I can see it's not my words that will get you there. I will
only offer that I've used SSDs for 5-6 years now and only had the first one
I purchased fail. I ran Gentoo with nightly code compiles for about 2 years
before moving away from Gentoo and never had a problem with any of that.

I think you're just going to have to hold your nose and jump in the pool.
We welcome you. The water is fine!

Mark

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Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Michael]

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On Sunday, 5 April 2020 18:54:25 BST tuxic@posteo.de wrote:
> On 04/05 10:33, Mark Knecht wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:13 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
> > > the application I had on my old system.
> > > 
> > > Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
> > > (or yesterday...it depends...;) .
> > > 
> > > When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
> > > needs to be transfered to the SSD.
> > > 
> > > The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
> > > 
> > > Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
> > > in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
> > > 
> > > And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
> > > to the SSD and do not miss anything?
> > > 
> > > Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
> > > greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
> > > What is recommended here?
> > > 
> > > Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
> > > 
> > > Cheers! And stay heathy!
> > > Meino
> > 
> > Just my 2 cents...
> > 
> > If the SSD cannot survive having data copied to it there's something
> > seriously wrong with the drive. I don't think you should be overly worried
> > about this but I do understand it's new technology so you want to be
> > careful. Bravo for that.
> > 
> > Possibly to ease your concerns a little bit use smartctl -a /dev/SSD and
> > get to know your drive that way. You can most likely watch the drive temp
> > as recorded by the drive.
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > Mark
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Yes, if a SSD could not survive writes, something is wrong with the
> SSD. But that was not my point.
> Copying about 100GB (roughly guessed) data in one go to the SSD is a
> use case, which is not common. And therefore possibly not taken into
> account by the company, which create that SSD.
> SSDs can create noticeable heat (mine has a minimalistic heat
> spreader therefore. Faster SSDs come with a substancial heatspreader).
> 
> Smartctl will report problems when they are already there.
> I want to prevent problems beforehand.
> 
> So -- does copying about 100 GB creates so much heat in the sillicone
> of the SSD, that it ages more than preferred?
> 
> And if so, how can I prevent it by appluing other techniques to copy
> the data?
> See additional questions in my initial posting for that.

With rsync you could add the option:

--bwlimit=RATE          limit socket I/O bandwidth

and select a low enough bandwidth limit to keep the packets flowing at a low 
rate to remain cool enough for your liking.  

However, I'll echo what other have said about not worrying about these things.  
The OEMs must run some rudimentary tests to establish performance envelopes 
and keep everything tuned just so.

Nevertheless, if you do not trust them to produce the best quality products, 
then we share something in common!  LOL!

In this case, you may want to open the PC case and use a desktop fan to keep 
the interior of the case even cooler than usual, during your copying process.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:08:08 -0500, Dale wrote:

> If you are using rsync or cp -u you could start the copy then stop at it
> certain points to let the SSD cool, then start it again.  It will
> basically pick up where it left off.

Don't use cp -u, if you interrupt it while a file is being copied, that
file will remain incomplete as it will have a newer timestamp than the
original. rsync won't have this problem.

I agree with the other comments that this is unlikely to cause a problem,
but you could run hddtemp or smartctl with watch to keep an eye on the
temperature during the copy.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Q:  Why is top-posting evil?
A: backwards read don't humans because

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Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[tuxic]

On 04/05 11:12, Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:54 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
> >
> > On 04/05 10:33, Mark Knecht wrote:
> > > On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:13 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
> > > > the application I had on my old system.
> > > >
> > > > Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
> > > > (or yesterday...it depends...;) .
> > > >
> > > > When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
> > > > needs to be transfered to the SSD.
> > > >
> > > > The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
> > > >
> > > > Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
> > > > in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
> > > >
> > > > And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
> > > > to the SSD and do not miss anything?
> > > >
> > > > Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
> > > > greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
> > > > What is recommended here?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
> > > >
> > > > Cheers! And stay heathy!
> > > > Meino
> > > >
> > >
> > > Just my 2 cents...
> > >
> > > If the SSD cannot survive having data copied to it there's something
> > > seriously wrong with the drive. I don't think you should be overly
> worried
> > > about this but I do understand it's new technology so you want to be
> > > careful. Bravo for that.
> > >
> > > Possibly to ease your concerns a little bit use smartctl -a /dev/SSD and
> > > get to know your drive that way. You can most likely watch the drive
> temp
> > > as recorded by the drive.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Mark
> >
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > Yes, if a SSD could not survive writes, something is wrong with the
> > SSD. But that was not my point.
> > Copying about 100GB (roughly guessed) data in one go to the SSD is a
> > use case, which is not common. And therefore possibly not taken into
> > account by the company, which create that SSD.
> > SSDs can create noticeable heat (mine has a minimalistic heat
> > spreader therefore. Faster SSDs come with a substancial heatspreader).
> >
> > Smartctl will report problems when they are already there.
> > I want to prevent problems beforehand.
> >
> > So -- does copying about 100 GB creates so much heat in the sillicone
> > of the SSD, that it ages more than preferred?
> >
> > And if so, how can I prevent it by appluing other techniques to copy
> > the data?
> > See additional questions in my initial posting for that.
> >
> > Thanks a lot for any helpful advice in advance!
> > Cheers!
> > Meino
> >
> 
> If copying 100GB causes too much heat watching smartctl will show you
> before it gets too hot and you can stop it.
> 
> 100GB of data as a copy is only 1 write cycle to any given data block on
> the drive. It's not going to matter how you get it there but something like
> rsync _might_ allow a restart in the middle of the copy if your rsync
> operation was to fail part way through.
> 
> I don't personally think there's anything at all for you to worry about
> with this but I can see it's not my words that will get you there. I will
> only offer that I've used SSDs for 5-6 years now and only had the first one
> I purchased fail. I ran Gentoo with nightly code compiles for about 2 years
> before moving away from Gentoo and never had a problem with any of that.
> 
> I think you're just going to have to hold your nose and jump in the pool.
> We welcome you. The water is fine!
> 
> Mark

...I just wanted to check, whether there is water in the pool... :)

I minute ago I found this:
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/203018/interrupting-rsync-with-ctrl-c-should-i-use-partial-or-append

which rises a question about how to resume an interrypted
rsync-session.
It looks like the final answer was not found...

Any additional ideas about that?
Cheers!
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[tuxic]

On 04/05 01:08, Dale wrote:
> tuxic@posteo.de wrote:
> > On 04/05 10:33, Mark Knecht wrote:
> >> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:13 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
> >>> the application I had on my old system.
> >>>
> >>> Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
> >>> (or yesterday...it depends...;) .
> >>>
> >>> When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
> >>> needs to be transfered to the SSD.
> >>>
> >>> The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
> >>>
> >>> Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
> >>> in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
> >>>
> >>> And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
> >>> to the SSD and do not miss anything?
> >>>
> >>> Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
> >>> greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
> >>> What is recommended here?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
> >>>
> >>> Cheers! And stay heathy!
> >>> Meino
> >>>
> >> Just my 2 cents...
> >>
> >> If the SSD cannot survive having data copied to it there's something
> >> seriously wrong with the drive. I don't think you should be overly worried
> >> about this but I do understand it's new technology so you want to be
> >> careful. Bravo for that.
> >>
> >> Possibly to ease your concerns a little bit use smartctl -a /dev/SSD and
> >> get to know your drive that way. You can most likely watch the drive temp
> >> as recorded by the drive.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >> Mark
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > Yes, if a SSD could not survive writes, something is wrong with the
> > SSD. But that was not my point.
> > Copying about 100GB (roughly guessed) data in one go to the SSD is a
> > use case, which is not common. And therefore possibly not taken into
> > account by the company, which create that SSD.
> > SSDs can create noticeable heat (mine has a minimalistic heat
> > spreader therefore. Faster SSDs come with a substancial heatspreader).
> >
> > Smartctl will report problems when they are already there.
> > I want to prevent problems beforehand.
> >
> > So -- does copying about 100 GB creates so much heat in the sillicone
> > of the SSD, that it ages more than preferred?
> >
> > And if so, how can I prevent it by appluing other techniques to copy
> > the data? 
> > See additional questions in my initial posting for that.
> >
> > Thanks a lot for any helpful advice in advance!
> > Cheers!
> > Meino
> >
> 
> If you are using rsync or cp -u you could start the copy then stop at it
> certain points to let the SSD cool, then start it again.  It will
> basically pick up where it left off.  You could monitor the temps while
> doing that.  I use smartctrl and then grep temp on the end so I only get
> the temp readings.  Something similar to this might help:
> 
> 
> smartctl -a /dev/sdd | grep Temp
> 
> 
> Another option, temporarily place a fan close to the drive to help cool
> it.  Once you get everything copied, remove the fan and carry on. 
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 
> 

Hi Dale,

I have become a fan of your idea with the fan... :)

Yes, of course! Great...after uears of thinking on software
level such things, which provide a solution, which exists in
the phusical world does not pop up in my head...

Will do that! :)
Cheers!
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[J. Roeleveld]

On 5 April 2020 19:12:45 CEST, tuxic@posteo.de wrote:
>Hi,
>
>currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
>the application I had on my old system.
>
>Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
>(or yesterday...it depends...;) .
>
>When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
>needs to be transfered to the SSD.
>
>The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
>
>Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
>in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
>
>And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
>to the SSD and do not miss anything?
>
>Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
>greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
>What is recommended here?
>
>Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
>
>Cheers! And stay heathy!
>Meino

I have been using SSDs for over 7 years now and never worried about them overheating.
In my opinion, if the drive can't handle a copy operation of 20GB (how much bigger is your root partition?) it should be replaced from day one.

I only keep the portage compile dir and browser caches in RAM, the rest stays on the SSD. And as I mentioned in a previous thread about SSDs, I only had one failure after 6.5 years. (That drive also had SWAP on it and I didn't offload the browser caches yet on that one).

Like Mark said, it is good to keep an eye on it, but if you use decent brand SSDs (Samsung and Intel), you should be able to expect 5+ years of heavy usage.

--
Joost
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[tuxic]

On 04/05 07:22, Michael wrote:
> On Sunday, 5 April 2020 18:54:25 BST tuxic@posteo.de wrote:
> > On 04/05 10:33, Mark Knecht wrote:
> > > On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:13 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > > 
> > > > currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
> > > > the application I had on my old system.
> > > > 
> > > > Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
> > > > (or yesterday...it depends...;) .
> > > > 
> > > > When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
> > > > needs to be transfered to the SSD.
> > > > 
> > > > The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
> > > > 
> > > > Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
> > > > in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
> > > > 
> > > > And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
> > > > to the SSD and do not miss anything?
> > > > 
> > > > Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
> > > > greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
> > > > What is recommended here?
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers! And stay heathy!
> > > > Meino
> > > 
> > > Just my 2 cents...
> > > 
> > > If the SSD cannot survive having data copied to it there's something
> > > seriously wrong with the drive. I don't think you should be overly worried
> > > about this but I do understand it's new technology so you want to be
> > > careful. Bravo for that.
> > > 
> > > Possibly to ease your concerns a little bit use smartctl -a /dev/SSD and
> > > get to know your drive that way. You can most likely watch the drive temp
> > > as recorded by the drive.
> > > 
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Mark
> > 
> > Hi Mark,
> > 
> > Yes, if a SSD could not survive writes, something is wrong with the
> > SSD. But that was not my point.
> > Copying about 100GB (roughly guessed) data in one go to the SSD is a
> > use case, which is not common. And therefore possibly not taken into
> > account by the company, which create that SSD.
> > SSDs can create noticeable heat (mine has a minimalistic heat
> > spreader therefore. Faster SSDs come with a substancial heatspreader).
> > 
> > Smartctl will report problems when they are already there.
> > I want to prevent problems beforehand.
> > 
> > So -- does copying about 100 GB creates so much heat in the sillicone
> > of the SSD, that it ages more than preferred?
> > 
> > And if so, how can I prevent it by appluing other techniques to copy
> > the data?
> > See additional questions in my initial posting for that.
> 
> With rsync you could add the option:
> 
> --bwlimit=RATE          limit socket I/O bandwidth
> 
> and select a low enough bandwidth limit to keep the packets flowing at a low 
> rate to remain cool enough for your liking.  
> 
> However, I'll echo what other have said about not worrying about these things.  
> The OEMs must run some rudimentary tests to establish performance envelopes 
> and keep everything tuned just so.
> 
> Nevertheless, if you do not trust them to produce the best quality products, 
> then we share something in common!  LOL!
> 
> In this case, you may want to open the PC case and use a desktop fan to keep 
> the interior of the case even cooler than usual, during your copying process.

That one is nice! Thanks a lot for that...

And yes, Michael, same here. I am not veru convinced, that everything
is well tested and tested for all use cases...

The fan is a nice idea also - these real world solytion does not pop
up in my head easily...they are kind of too real ;)
I will use a fan, if smartctl i.e. will report high temperatures...

Cheers!
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:08:08 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> If you are using rsync or cp -u you could start the copy then stop at it
>> certain points to let the SSD cool, then start it again.  It will
>> basically pick up where it left off.
> Don't use cp -u, if you interrupt it while a file is being copied, that
> file will remain incomplete as it will have a newer timestamp than the
> original. rsync won't have this problem.
>
> I agree with the other comments that this is unlikely to cause a problem,
> but you could run hddtemp or smartctl with watch to keep an eye on the
> temperature during the copy.
>
>


Ahh, I've used dp -u in the past but never interrupted it.  Before I
started using rsync, I used that but it was run once until done and then
ran again on the next backup.  Good info to know tho.  That could cause
"issues".  :/

I've used the watch command but don't quite get it yet.  With the
command below, how would watch be added to that to make it update every
set number of seconds, say 10 seconds or so?

smartctl -a /dev/sdd | grep Temp

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Dale]

tuxic@posteo.de wrote:
> On 04/05 01:08, Dale wrote:
>> tuxic@posteo.de wrote:
>>> On 04/05 10:33, Mark Knecht wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:13 AM <tuxic@posteo.de> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
>>>>> the application I had on my old system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
>>>>> (or yesterday...it depends...;) .
>>>>>
>>>>> When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
>>>>> needs to be transfered to the SSD.
>>>>>
>>>>> The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
>>>>> in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
>>>>>
>>>>> And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
>>>>> to the SSD and do not miss anything?
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
>>>>> greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
>>>>> What is recommended here?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers! And stay heathy!
>>>>> Meino
>>>>>
>>>> Just my 2 cents...
>>>>
>>>> If the SSD cannot survive having data copied to it there's something
>>>> seriously wrong with the drive. I don't think you should be overly worried
>>>> about this but I do understand it's new technology so you want to be
>>>> careful. Bravo for that.
>>>>
>>>> Possibly to ease your concerns a little bit use smartctl -a /dev/SSD and
>>>> get to know your drive that way. You can most likely watch the drive temp
>>>> as recorded by the drive.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Mark
>>> Hi Mark,
>>>
>>> Yes, if a SSD could not survive writes, something is wrong with the
>>> SSD. But that was not my point.
>>> Copying about 100GB (roughly guessed) data in one go to the SSD is a
>>> use case, which is not common. And therefore possibly not taken into
>>> account by the company, which create that SSD.
>>> SSDs can create noticeable heat (mine has a minimalistic heat
>>> spreader therefore. Faster SSDs come with a substancial heatspreader).
>>>
>>> Smartctl will report problems when they are already there.
>>> I want to prevent problems beforehand.
>>>
>>> So -- does copying about 100 GB creates so much heat in the sillicone
>>> of the SSD, that it ages more than preferred?
>>>
>>> And if so, how can I prevent it by appluing other techniques to copy
>>> the data? 
>>> See additional questions in my initial posting for that.
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot for any helpful advice in advance!
>>> Cheers!
>>> Meino
>>>
>> If you are using rsync or cp -u you could start the copy then stop at it
>> certain points to let the SSD cool, then start it again.  It will
>> basically pick up where it left off.  You could monitor the temps while
>> doing that.  I use smartctrl and then grep temp on the end so I only get
>> the temp readings.  Something similar to this might help:
>>
>>
>> smartctl -a /dev/sdd | grep Temp
>>
>>
>> Another option, temporarily place a fan close to the drive to help cool
>> it.  Once you get everything copied, remove the fan and carry on. 
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
>>
> Hi Dale,
>
> I have become a fan of your idea with the fan... :)
>
> Yes, of course! Great...after uears of thinking on software
> level such things, which provide a solution, which exists in
> the phusical world does not pop up in my head...
>
> Will do that! :)
> Cheers!
> Meino
>
>
>


My Cooler Master HAF-932 has a large fan on the side.  However, when I
remove the side, I have to unplug that fan.  Temps start rising even
with the side completely off the thing.  Years ago I bought a little 9
or 10 inch fan that plugs into the wall.  Usually I use it to cool my
upright freezer when I'm freezing fresh packed meat and the freezer has
a load on it for hours at a time.  I sometimes buy 40 or 50 lbs of meat
to freeze.  Anyway, when needed I use that fan to blow in place of the
side fan.  It blows a larger volume of air, even on low, but it keeps
the temps down to what they are with the side fan in place.  Sometimes
the temp rises 10 or 15F without that fan, mostly things like the video
card and such.  CPU stays pretty close to the same..  Amazing how that
slow spinning side fan does that.  ;-)

I usually place mine towards the front blowing towards the back.  That
is sort of the natural flow for this case.  However, in your case, you
want air blowing on the drive itself so I'd set it to blow across the
drive either at a upward or downward angle.  I'm not sure if the heat is
even or more on top or bottom.  Most likely, either will help. 

Yea, I'm a country guy who has learned to do things with little to
nothing.  I'm good at using something for something other than what it
was intended for.  o_O

Glad to help.  Sometimes the simple things even escape my notice.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Dale]

tuxic@posteo.de wrote:
>
> ...I just wanted to check, whether there is water in the pool... :)
>
> I minute ago I found this:
> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/203018/interrupting-rsync-with-ctrl-c-should-i-use-partial-or-append
>
> which rises a question about how to resume an interrypted
> rsync-session.
> It looks like the final answer was not found...
>
> Any additional ideas about that?
> Cheers!
> Meino
>

I have interrupted rsync quite a few times and never had it fail on
resume.  I've tested it to be sure.  I always use the -v and --progress
options so I can watch what it is doing.  If I restart it, it picks up
right where it left off, if no other files have changed since I stopped
it.  On occasion Seamonkey or Firefox will write to a file and it
catches those too but it updates the file it was stopped on and either
completes it or updates it one.  I don't know about the technical answer
but that's my experience with it. 

Another thing, if you do have to stop it and feel the need, rerun it
with a complete run afterwords to let it double check.  If nothing
changes, you should be fine.  Using du to check data sizes may help to,
although sometimes different file systems can change those. 

Just a couple thoughts. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 426 bytes --]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:09:16 -0500, Dale wrote:

> I've used the watch command but don't quite get it yet.  With the
> command below, how would watch be added to that to make it update every
> set number of seconds, say 10 seconds or so?
> 
> smartctl -a /dev/sdd | grep Temp

watch -n 10 '(smartctl -a /dev/sdd | grep Temp)'


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Eye of newt, toe of frog, regular Coke and fries to go, please.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 262 bytes --]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 20:37:04 +0200, tuxic@posteo.de wrote:

> which rises a question about how to resume an interrypted
> rsync-session.

Just run the rsync command again.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Death is proven to be 99.9% fatal to all laboratory rats.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 498 bytes --]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 21:03:23 +0200, tuxic@posteo.de wrote:

> And yes, Michael, same here. I am not veru convinced, that everything
> is well tested and tested for all use cases...
> 
I would say that copying an OS to the drive is the first use case most
SSDs experience, and one that occurs well within the warranty period. I
would imagine the manufacturers take care to ensure this first hurdle is
cleared easily.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:09:16 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> I've used the watch command but don't quite get it yet.  With the
>> command below, how would watch be added to that to make it update every
>> set number of seconds, say 10 seconds or so?
>>
>> smartctl -a /dev/sdd | grep Temp
> watch -n 10 '(smartctl -a /dev/sdd | grep Temp)'
>
>


Ahhhh, I tried to add it my way but it didn't work.  I didn't have the '
and ( ) in there tho.  Me makes a note on that.  ;-) 

Thanks much. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2020-04-05, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:

> If copying 100GB causes too much heat watching smartctl will show you
> before it gets too hot and you can stop it.

If your SSD really can't handle large data transfers without damage,
I'd get a different one.  Copying a few hundred GB in one go golly
well better be a use case considered by the designer/manufacturer.  If
not, they're utterly incompetent and you shouldn't buy their products.

However, if do want to control the rate at which files are copied,
rsync has a --bwlimit option. But, the description of that option
specifically says it's for controlling bandwidth usage on "the
socket", so perhaps it's ineffective for local copies.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[tuxic]

On 04/05 08:41, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On 5 April 2020 19:12:45 CEST, tuxic@posteo.de wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
> >the application I had on my old system.
> >
> >Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
> >(or yesterday...it depends...;) .
> >
> >When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
> >needs to be transfered to the SSD.
> >
> >The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
> >
> >Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
> >in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
> >
> >And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
> >to the SSD and do not miss anything?
> >
> >Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
> >greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
> >What is recommended here?
> >
> >Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
> >
> >Cheers! And stay heathy!
> >Meino
> 
> I have been using SSDs for over 7 years now and never worried about them overheating.
> In my opinion, if the drive can't handle a copy operation of 20GB (how much bigger is your root partition?) it should be replaced from day one.
> 
> I only keep the portage compile dir and browser caches in RAM, the rest stays on the SSD. And as I mentioned in a previous thread about SSDs, I only had one failure after 6.5 years. (That drive also had SWAP on it and I didn't offload the browser caches yet on that one).
> 
> Like Mark said, it is good to keep an eye on it, but if you use decent brand SSDs (Samsung and Intel), you should be able to expect 5+ years of heavy usage.
> 
> --
> Joost
> -- 
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> 


Hi,

I found a minute ago:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=2020-Linux-Kernel-SATA-Temps

Cheers!
Meino

Re: [gentoo-user] Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[William Kenworthy]

On 6/4/20 1:12 am, tuxic@posteo.de wrote:
> Hi,
>
> currentlu I am preparing a new Gentoo Linux by compiling all
> the application I had on my old system.
>
> Due to delivery problems (corona) my SSD was delivered today
> (or yesterday...it depends...;) .
>
> When the whole compilation has finished and the system boots it
> needs to be transfered to the SSD.
>
> The SSD has a heat spreader...so it gets hot, when used.
>
> Is it wise to copy the whole root system to the SSD in one go
> in respect to a not so healthy heat increase?
>
> And if not...how can I copy the root system in portions
> to the SSD and do not miss anything?
>
> Are there SDD-friendly and SSD-unfriendlu methods of copying
> greater chunks of data to a SSD (rsync, tar-pipe, cp....)?
> What is recommended here?
>
> Thanks a lot for any help for a SSD newbie in advance!
>
> Cheers! And stay heathy!
> Meino
>

Use rsync with the bwlimit option to slow down the overall data rate - monitor the temp with smart and slow it up if needed (I actually don't think you will have a problem.)

BillK

[gentoo-user] Re: Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2020-04-06, William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au> wrote:

> Use rsync with the bwlimit option to slow down the overall data rate - monitor the temp with smart and slow it up if needed (I actually don't think you will have a problem.)

Does bwlimit work with local copies?  The man page says specifically
it's for limiting bandwidthon sockets.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Jack]

On 4/6/20 9:35 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2020-04-06, William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Use rsync with the bwlimit option to slow down the overall data rate - monitor the temp with smart and slow it up if needed (I actually don't think you will have a problem.)
> Does bwlimit work with local copies?  The man page says specifically
> it's for limiting bandwidthon sockets.
>
> --
> Grant
Can't you use the network syntax for one end of the rsync transfer to 
bring the socket controls into play?

  rsync source localhost:/path/to/dest

Jack

[gentoo-user] Re: Copying root to SSD in one go...a good idea...or?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2020-04-06, Jack <ostroffjh@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> On 4/6/20 9:35 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2020-04-06, William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Use rsync with the bwlimit option to slow down the overall data rate - monitor the temp with smart and slow it up if needed (I actually don't think you will have a problem.)
>> Does bwlimit work with local copies?  The man page says specifically
>> it's for limiting bandwidthon sockets.
>
> Can't you use the network syntax for one end of the rsync transfer to 
> bring the socket controls into play?

Sure, if you want to route all the data through the network stack.
You'll have to configure rsync to listen on localhost, and it seems
like a waste, but it should work to limit bandwidth.