[gentoo-user] Another USE question

[gentoo-user] Another USE question

[KH]

Hi,

so inspired by [gentoo-user] USE="mmx mmxext sse sse2 ssse3 3dnow
3dnowext" I again thougt about my USE flags.

Now I want to put them in an order which is better fitting my need than
the alphabetical order. I remember I saw something ordering it for
hardware and software, but I can't remember the correct way. Was it:
USE_HARDWARE
USE_SOFTWARE

???

Does anyone now this out of the box?

Thak's

kh

Re: [gentoo-user] Another USE question

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 27 May 2009 00:52:21 KH wrote:
> Hi,
>
> so inspired by [gentoo-user] USE="mmx mmxext sse sse2 ssse3 3dnow
> 3dnowext" I again thougt about my USE flags.
>
> Now I want to put them in an order which is better fitting my need than
> the alphabetical order. I remember I saw something ordering it for
> hardware and software, but I can't remember the correct way. Was it:
> USE_HARDWARE
> USE_SOFTWARE
>
> ???
>
> Does anyone now this out of the box?
>
> Thak's
>
> kh

How about you jumble them all up randomly?

That would sure appear to match your state of mind on the matter.

Who cares what the order is, you certainly shouldn't - I assure you you will 
forget what the order all means anyway within 48 hours.

Try this instead: Study and understand the USE flags and know what they do and 
mean. Then list them alphabetical - you will know where to find them and when 
you see them they will make sense.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Another USE question

[KH]

Alan McKinnon schrieb:
> On Wednesday 27 May 2009 00:52:21 KH wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> so inspired by [gentoo-user] USE="mmx mmxext sse sse2 ssse3 3dnow
>> 3dnowext" I again thougt about my USE flags.
>>
>> Now I want to put them in an order which is better fitting my need than
>> the alphabetical order. I remember I saw something ordering it for
>> hardware and software, but I can't remember the correct way. Was it:
>> USE_HARDWARE
>> USE_SOFTWARE
>>
>> ???
>>
>> Does anyone now this out of the box?
>>
>> Thak's
>>
>> kh
> 
> How about you jumble them all up randomly?
> 
> That would sure appear to match your state of mind on the matter.
> 
> Who cares what the order is, you certainly shouldn't - I assure you you will 
> forget what the order all means anyway within 48 hours.
> 
> Try this instead: Study and understand the USE flags and know what they do and 
> mean. Then list them alphabetical - you will know where to find them and when 
> you see them they will make sense.
> 

Hi,

sure I want to know what they do mean and I hope I already do with those
I defined for my make.conf. The point is another. Like I set up another
PC with other cpu and gpu I want to be able to just copy and past those
use flags not related to hardware very easy. One the other hand hardware
use flags shouldn't change for my pc so I do now "don't touch this area" :-)
Doesn't this make sense?

kh

Re: [gentoo-user] Another USE question

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 27 May 2009 01:06:06 KH wrote:
> Hi,
>
> sure I want to know what they do mean and I hope I already do with those
> I defined for my make.conf. The point is another. Like I set up another
> PC with other cpu and gpu I want to be able to just copy and past those
> use flags not related to hardware very easy. One the other hand hardware
> use flags shouldn't change for my pc so I do now "don't touch this area"
> :-) Doesn't this make sense?

Yes, it always made sense. I wanted to point out that you are spammingg the 
list with stupid questions that are adequately described elsewhere and in the 
docs.

Who cares how you organize your flags? It's just bash variables, so manipulate 
them any way you want and stick them into any variable you like and cat them 
all together.

But why ask us if it's a good idea? The only person using them is you.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

[gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Nikos Chantziaras]

KH wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> so inspired by [gentoo-user] USE="mmx mmxext sse sse2 ssse3 3dnow
> 3dnowext" I again thougt about my USE flags.
> 
> Now I want to put them in an order which is better fitting my need than
> the alphabetical order. I remember I saw something ordering it for
> hardware and software, but I can't remember the correct way. Was it:
> USE_HARDWARE
> USE_SOFTWARE
> 
> ???
> 
> Does anyone now this out of the box?

You can do whatever you wish as long as USE contains all you need in the 
end.  Example:

   USE_FOO="this n that"
   USE_BAR="some more flags"
   BLAH="whatever else there might be"

   USE="${USE_FOO} ${USE_BAR} ${BLAH}"

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[KH]

Nikos Chantziaras schrieb:
> KH wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> so inspired by [gentoo-user] USE="mmx mmxext sse sse2 ssse3 3dnow
>> 3dnowext" I again thougt about my USE flags.
>>
>> Now I want to put them in an order which is better fitting my need than
>> the alphabetical order. I remember I saw something ordering it for
>> hardware and software, but I can't remember the correct way. Was it:
>> USE_HARDWARE
>> USE_SOFTWARE
>>
>> ???
>>
>> Does anyone now this out of the box?
> 
> You can do whatever you wish as long as USE contains all you need in the
> end.  Example:
> 
>   USE_FOO="this n that"
>   USE_BAR="some more flags"
>   BLAH="whatever else there might be"
> 
>   USE="${USE_FOO} ${USE_BAR} ${BLAH}"
> 
> 

Thank's. That is exactly what I was looking for.

kh

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Keith Dart]

On May 26, 2009, at 4:07 PM, KH wrote:
>> You can do whatever you wish as long as USE contains all you need  
>> in the
>> end.  Example:
>>
>>  USE_FOO="this n that"
>>  USE_BAR="some more flags"
>>  BLAH="whatever else there might be"
>>
>>  USE="${USE_FOO} ${USE_BAR} ${BLAH}"
>>
>>
>
> Thank's. That is exactly what I was looking for.
>
> kh
>

But that will likely break, or render useless, the ufed tool.

If you don't use that, you probably should.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 27 May 2009 00:33:12 Keith Dart wrote:

> But that will likely break, or render useless, the ufed tool.
>
> If you don't use that, you probably should.

Why?

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Keith Dart]

On May 26, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> On Wednesday 27 May 2009 00:33:12 Keith Dart wrote:
>
>> But that will likely break, or render useless, the ufed tool.
>>
>> If you don't use that, you probably should.
>
> Why?

Makes it easy to change USE flags. You see the flag name, current  
setting, and description all in one place. It also show inherited  
settings. It also rewrites your USE flag.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 27 May 2009 01:02:17 Keith Dart wrote:
> On May 26, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > On Wednesday 27 May 2009 00:33:12 Keith Dart wrote:
> >> But that will likely break, or render useless, the ufed tool.
> >>
> >> If you don't use that, you probably should.
> >
> > Why?
>
> Makes it easy to change USE flags. You see the flag name, current
> setting, and description all in one place. It also show inherited
> settings. It also rewrites your USE flag.

Changing USE flags is easy enough already, isn't it? I don't think I want 
any program meddling in my make.conf, thanks.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Wednesday 27 May 2009 01:02:17 Keith Dart wrote:
>   
>> On May 26, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>>     
>>> On Wednesday 27 May 2009 00:33:12 Keith Dart wrote:
>>>       
>>>> But that will likely break, or render useless, the ufed tool.
>>>>
>>>> If you don't use that, you probably should.
>>>>         
>>> Why?
>>>       
>> Makes it easy to change USE flags. You see the flag name, current
>> setting, and description all in one place. It also show inherited
>> settings. It also rewrites your USE flag.
>>     
>
> Changing USE flags is easy enough already, isn't it? I don't think I want 
> any program meddling in my make.conf, thanks.
>
>   

+1  Anybody remember the old mirrorselect?  o_O

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Keith Dart]

On May 26, 2009, at 6:16 PM, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> Changing USE flags is easy enough already, isn't it? I don't think I  
> want
> any program meddling in my make.conf, thanks.

No, I have not yet memorized all of them, and they change frequently.  
But suit yourself, I like ufed.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Dale]

Keith Dart wrote:
> On May 26, 2009, at 6:16 PM, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>
>> Changing USE flags is easy enough already, isn't it? I don't think I
>> want
>> any program meddling in my make.conf, thanks.
>
> No, I have not yet memorized all of them, and they change frequently.
> But suit yourself, I like ufed.
>
>
>

Memorized all of what?  Open a text editor and edit make.conf.  What do
you need to memorize?  If you use KDE, you can edit them with kwrite
which is about as easy as it gets.  Heck, I been using Gentoo for years
and I don't recall ever using ufed.

Now to go see what ufed even is.  I think I know what it does.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Keith Dart]

On May 26, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Dale wrote:

> Memorized all of what?  Open a text editor and edit make.conf.  What  
> do
> you need to memorize?  If you use KDE, you can edit them with kwrite
> which is about as easy as it gets.  Heck, I been using Gentoo for  
> years
> and I don't recall ever using ufed.

Editing make.conf is easy, knowing what to put in it is the hard part.  
what are all the possible flag names you can enter? There are  
hundreds. What do they all mean? How does enabling or disabling a  
particular use flag effect the build of all packages that use it?   
Which packages share a use flag? Which flags are mutually exclusive?  
Which ones are enabled by default, that you want disabled?

There is much more involved than simply editing a file.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 27 May 2009 04:23:13 Keith Dart wrote:
> On May 26, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Dale wrote:
> > Memorized all of what?  Open a text editor and edit make.conf.  What
> > do
> > you need to memorize?  If you use KDE, you can edit them with kwrite
> > which is about as easy as it gets.  Heck, I been using Gentoo for
> > years
> > and I don't recall ever using ufed.
>
> Editing make.conf is easy, knowing what to put in it is the hard part.
> what are all the possible flag names you can enter? There are
> hundreds. What do they all mean? How does enabling or disabling a
> particular use flag effect the build of all packages that use it?
> Which packages share a use flag? Which flags are mutually exclusive?
> Which ones are enabled by default, that you want disabled?
>
> There is much more involved than simply editing a file.

Yes, you normally also need to run euse as well

And the output of that command is everything your box knows about a flag short 
of looking inside every ebuild

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Stroller]

On 27 May 2009, at 00:33, Keith Dart wrote:
>>> ...
>>> USE_FOO="this n that"
>>> USE_BAR="some more flags"
>>> BLAH="whatever else there might be"
>>>
>>> USE="${USE_FOO} ${USE_BAR} ${BLAH}
>>
>> Thank's. That is exactly what I was looking for.
>
> But that will likely break, or render useless, the ufed tool.
>
> If you don't use that, you probably should.

I'm really unconvinced by ufed.

In a standard terminal window, 80 characters wide, the descriptions  
are too long and instead of wrapping around to the next line they fall  
off the end of the screen and you can't read them. Sure, I can resize  
the terminal window, but I don't want to have to do that manually each  
time I run ufed, then resize it back to my usual size again  
afterwards. ufed is about the only program I've used which doesn't  
seem right in my "standard" terminal window size of 50 rows x 80  
columns.

ufed has seemed to me to behave unexpectedly on occasions. I have run  
it, added only one USE flag and then when I re-run `emerge -pv world`  
more than one additional USE setting has changed. WTF?!?!

This is why I have arrived at the combination of euse (and now `equery  
uses`) to view USE descriptions and flagedit for setting them. I think  
that from a usability point of view these are easier than either ufed  
or a text editor. Either of the latter render the whole terminal  
window and throws one into a different "modality" (??) from the  
command line utilities that one uses most - cat, cp, mv, touch, emerge  
&c. With euse, equery & flagedit one can still see in the terminal  
buffer the output of the previous command(s), and one can use the bash  
history to quickly edit the last argument of the command (always the  
USE flag or package name).

Using vim to edit make.conf or ufed requires your mind to enter a  
slightly different "way of thinking" and requires a different set of  
commands. However hard I'm trying to improve my knowledge of vim's  
keyboard shortcuts, one has to find the USE flag line, navigate the  
cursor inside the quotes, change to edit mode (perhaps not required on  
other editors), type the flag name, save and then exit. Then one is  
back to the normal "type command, output appears on screen, fresh  
prompt appears" command line "paradigm". The difference is admittedly  
small, but for me typing `flagedit +foo` is just more natural. ufed is  
unique to its task and - perhaps I use it relatively infrequently - I  
just find it more of a hassle to get my head into the appropriate gear  
for it (not withstanding the problems I pointed out in my first &  
second paragraphs).

IMO if you're not using `equery uses category/package` and `flagedit  
[category/package] flag [flag]` then you probably should.
;)

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 27 Mai 2009, Stroller wrote:
> On 27 May 2009, at 00:33, Keith Dart wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> USE_FOO="this n that"
> >>> USE_BAR="some more flags"
> >>> BLAH="whatever else there might be"
> >>>
> >>> USE="${USE_FOO} ${USE_BAR} ${BLAH}
> >>
> >> Thank's. That is exactly what I was looking for.
> >
> > But that will likely break, or render useless, the ufed tool.
> >
> > If you don't use that, you probably should.
>
> I'm really unconvinced by ufed.
>
> In a standard terminal window, 80 characters wide, the descriptions
> are too long and instead of wrapping around to the next line they fall
> off the end of the screen and you can't read them. Sure, I can resize
> the terminal window, but I don't want to have to do that manually each
> time I run ufed, then resize it back to my usual size again
> afterwards. ufed is about the only program I've used which doesn't
> seem right in my "standard" terminal window size of 50 rows x 80
> columns.

or you can, you know, scroll it.
Protip: arrow keys, left, right.

>
> ufed has seemed to me to behave unexpectedly on occasions. I have run
> it, added only one USE flag and then when I re-run `emerge -pv world`
> more than one additional USE setting has changed. WTF?!?!

never happened here. But maybe you did more than just change one flag before 
you did the pv world - like emerge sync - and some default flag was changed?

>
> This is why I have arrived at the combination of euse (and now `equery
> uses`) to view USE descriptions and flagedit for setting them. I think
> that from a usability point of view these are easier than either ufed
> or a text editor.

except that you obviously did not use ufed.

[gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Mittwoch 27 Mai 2009, Stroller wrote:
>> On 27 May 2009, at 00:33, Keith Dart wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>> USE_FOO="this n that"
>>>>> USE_BAR="some more flags"
>>>>> BLAH="whatever else there might be"
>>>>>
>>>>> USE="${USE_FOO} ${USE_BAR} ${BLAH}
>>>> Thank's. That is exactly what I was looking for.
>>> But that will likely break, or render useless, the ufed tool.
>>>
>>> If you don't use that, you probably should.
>> I'm really unconvinced by ufed.
>>
>> In a standard terminal window, 80 characters wide, the descriptions
>> are too long and instead of wrapping around to the next line they fall
>> off the end of the screen and you can't read them. Sure, I can resize
>> the terminal window, but I don't want to have to do that manually each
>> time I run ufed, then resize it back to my usual size again
>> afterwards. ufed is about the only program I've used which doesn't
>> seem right in my "standard" terminal window size of 50 rows x 80
>> columns.
> 
> or you can, you know, scroll it.
> Protip: arrow keys, left, right.

Nah, that just doesn't cut it.  It's annoying as hell.  It's far less 
annoying to simply "equery uses" on the USE flags you see during an 
"emerge -a" and edit make.conf by hand instead of doing the 
scroll-circus.  You try to read text by constantly scrolling right and 
left.  It doesn't work for me, and probably for the majority of others 
neither.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 27 Mai 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Mittwoch 27 Mai 2009, Stroller wrote:
> >> On 27 May 2009, at 00:33, Keith Dart wrote:
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>> USE_FOO="this n that"
> >>>>> USE_BAR="some more flags"
> >>>>> BLAH="whatever else there might be"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> USE="${USE_FOO} ${USE_BAR} ${BLAH}
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank's. That is exactly what I was looking for.
> >>>
> >>> But that will likely break, or render useless, the ufed tool.
> >>>
> >>> If you don't use that, you probably should.
> >>
> >> I'm really unconvinced by ufed.
> >>
> >> In a standard terminal window, 80 characters wide, the descriptions
> >> are too long and instead of wrapping around to the next line they fall
> >> off the end of the screen and you can't read them. Sure, I can resize
> >> the terminal window, but I don't want to have to do that manually each
> >> time I run ufed, then resize it back to my usual size again
> >> afterwards. ufed is about the only program I've used which doesn't
> >> seem right in my "standard" terminal window size of 50 rows x 80
> >> columns.
> >
> > or you can, you know, scroll it.
> > Protip: arrow keys, left, right.
>
> Nah, that just doesn't cut it.  It's annoying as hell.  It's far less
> annoying to simply "equery uses" on the USE flags you see during an
> "emerge -a" and edit make.conf by hand instead of doing the
> scroll-circus.  You try to read text by constantly scrolling right and
> left.  It doesn't work for me, and probably for the majority of others
> neither.

oh yeah, scrolling for a tenth of a second is so much slower than feeding 
equery or euse and then open make.conf, type, check that you did not forget 
something ....

[gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Nikos Chantziaras]

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Mittwoch 27 Mai 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> Protip: arrow keys, left, right.
>> Nah, that just doesn't cut it.  It's annoying as hell.  It's far less
>> annoying to simply "equery uses" on the USE flags you see during an
>> "emerge -a" and edit make.conf by hand instead of doing the
>> scroll-circus.  You try to read text by constantly scrolling right and
>> left.  It doesn't work for me, and probably for the majority of others
>> neither.
> 
> oh yeah, scrolling for a tenth of a second is so much slower than feeding 
> equery or euse and then open make.conf, type, check that you did not forget 
> something ....

In fact, it is.  That lack of word-wrapping is the major reason it sucks 
for me.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Mittwoch 27 Mai 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Mittwoch 27 Mai 2009, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> >> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >>> Protip: arrow keys, left, right.
> >>
> >> Nah, that just doesn't cut it.  It's annoying as hell.  It's far less
> >> annoying to simply "equery uses" on the USE flags you see during an
> >> "emerge -a" and edit make.conf by hand instead of doing the
> >> scroll-circus.  You try to read text by constantly scrolling right and
> >> left.  It doesn't work for me, and probably for the majority of others
> >> neither.
> >
> > oh yeah, scrolling for a tenth of a second is so much slower than feeding
> > equery or euse and then open make.conf, type, check that you did not
> > forget something ....
>
> In fact, it is.  That lack of word-wrapping is the major reason it sucks
> for me.

in fact, it isn't. Keeping in mind the half douzends of flags that have to be 
toggled, looking them up and editing make.conf takes A LOT longer, then just 
hit 'right arrow key' and go on.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Stroller]

On 27 May 2009, at 10:11, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> ...
>> Nah, that just doesn't cut it.  It's annoying as hell.  It's far less
>> annoying to simply "equery uses" on the USE flags you see during an
>> "emerge -a" and edit make.conf by hand instead of doing the
>> scroll-circus.  You try to read text by constantly scrolling right  
>> and
>> left.  It doesn't work for me, and probably for the majority of  
>> others
>> neither.
>
> oh yeah, scrolling for a tenth of a second is so much slower than  
> feeding
> equery or euse and then open make.conf, type, check that you did not  
> forget
> something ....

When you called me a liar, the post you were replying to contained a  
bit of detail on this.

Apparently you didn't bother to read all that, and just jumped to some  
kind of conclusions and treated me like an idiot.

It's all about a matter of user interfaces and modes of thought. For  
some people, a curses interface just isn't going to be as smooth as  
some other.

Personally, if I type `emerge -pv mplayer` and see 30 different USE  
flags listed, then it doesn't help me that they will be obscured if I  
run ufed (which takes over the whole terminal window, overwriting the  
output I was just looking at). No longer can I see what USE flags I'm  
supposed to be looking for, and it doesn't help that there are loads  
of USE flags in the tree that are unmemorable 4 letter acronyms.

That's why `euses` or `equery uses` just really suit me well. I can  
don't have to open make.conf because I use flagedit, and I can bring  
these commands up really quickly by typing ctrl-r and three letters;  
when I retrieve a line from Bash history I tend to use the down-arrow  
immediately followed by the up-arrow to get the cursor to the end of  
the line; I can then use ctrl-w to delete the last word of the  
historical command, and then I just type the new package or USE that I  
want to query. For me this works very quickly. I guess it just suits  
my keyboard style.

I don't want to have to bitched out because your favourite tool  
doesn't suit me.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 373 bytes --]

On Wed, 27 May 2009 11:30:11 +0300, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

> Nah, that just doesn't cut it.  It's annoying as hell.  It's far less 
> annoying to simply "equery uses" on the USE flags you see during an 
> "emerge -a" and edit make.conf by hand

It's even easier to use flagedit than hand editing.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Only an idiot actually READS taglines.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Another USE question

[Stroller]

On 27 May 2009, at 09:15, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> ...
>> This is why I have arrived at the combination of euse (and now  
>> `equery
>> uses`) to view USE descriptions and flagedit for setting them. I  
>> think
>> that from a usability point of view these are easier than either ufed
>> or a text editor.
>
> except that you obviously did not use ufed.

You can be very combative in debate, Volker.

I *have* used ufed, and I didn't like it. It's just a personal  
preference, and not an insult to you. I'm sorry if you're the author.  
If I offend you by having a preference for other software than ufed,  
imagine how Microsoft's programmers must hurt, being shunned by all of  
us on this list.

I didn't know that you could scroll the descriptions left and right. I  
guess this is because I expect such a simple piece of interactive  
software to be intuitive, so I never read the manual. I don't happen  
to find ufed's other commands terribly intuitive, either - surely it's  
just me, but I tend to find myself typing "q" then "Q" when I want to  
quit it. In the space at the bottom of the window - where it tells me  
the correct keys - there is room to add "<-, -> Scroll Description"; I  
suggest you do so, if you are indeed ufed's author, so you don't have  
to call anyone else a retard (or a liar) in the future. I happen to  
find the description scrolls a little too slowly for my purposes, BTW.

Stroller.