[gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hello, Gentoo.

My current rig is working well (hence the lack of posts to the list from
me), but ....

The time is coming up for me to buy a new PC, the current one being
around 7 years old.  It's served me well for that time, but nothing
lasts forever.  Also, it would be nice to be able to build clang and
rust and friends somewhat faster.

So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.

But in the doc on wiki.gentoo.org, I can't find any mention of inbuilt
graphics; all references are to graphics _cards_.  Does Gentoo support
my intended processor's graphics, and if so, how do I go about
identifying the needed microcode (if any) and so on?  Am I missing
something obvious in the wiki?

As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?

Thanks for the upcoming answers!

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Dale]

Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello, Gentoo.
>
> My current rig is working well (hence the lack of posts to the list from
> me), but ....
>
> The time is coming up for me to buy a new PC, the current one being
> around 7 years old.  It's served me well for that time, but nothing
> lasts forever.  Also, it would be nice to be able to build clang and
> rust and friends somewhat faster.
>
> So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
> inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.
>
> But in the doc on wiki.gentoo.org, I can't find any mention of inbuilt
> graphics; all references are to graphics _cards_.  Does Gentoo support
> my intended processor's graphics, and if so, how do I go about
> identifying the needed microcode (if any) and so on?  Am I missing
> something obvious in the wiki?
>
> As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
>
> Thanks for the upcoming answers!
>


On the cooling point, I notice that newer CPUs actually consume less
power therefore produce less heat.  I've never used water.  I don't have
anything to drink close to my puter either.  I suspect that if you got a
pretty good size air CPU cooler, with a large quiet fan, you will find
it pretty quiet.  I have a FX-8350 right now.  I can't recall the power
it pulls right now but it is more than the newer CPUs.  I have a CPU
cooler with a 120mm fan and even at full load, I don't hear anything and
I'm right next to it.  I don't even hear the large case fans.  Keep in
mind, those case fans are 200mm fans. 

Some prefer water and for those who do, use water.  I just don't see why
newer CPUs that produce less heat would need water when air cooling
works fine on CPUs that produce more heat.  If you would rather avoid
water, I can't imagine a good air CPU cooler with a large fan not being
more than enough.  I might add, I'm always scared the pump will decide
to take a nap.  At least with a air cooler, it will cool some even
without a fan.  Could prevent burning out the CPU if you shutdown quick.

Maybe when I get me a new rig built I can share personal experience.  ;-) 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Peter Humphrey]

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On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 15:23:47 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:

> So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
> inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.
> 
> But in the doc on wiki.gentoo.org, I can't find any mention of inbuilt
> graphics; all references are to graphics _cards_.  Does Gentoo support
> my intended processor's graphics, and if so, how do I go about
> identifying the needed microcode (if any) and so on?  Am I missing
> something obvious in the wiki?

The AMD website says it uses Radeon graphics, so it seems to be covered, as 
long as you have a USB-C connector.


> As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
> 
> Thanks for the upcoming answers!


-- 
Regards,
Peter.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-15, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:

> But in the doc on wiki.gentoo.org, I can't find any mention of inbuilt
> graphics; all references are to graphics _cards_.  Does Gentoo support
> my intended processor's graphics,

Technically, no. Gentoo doesn't.  However, the Linux kernel, Xorg, and
Mesa do. You'll need "recent" versions of those.  According to this
article:

    https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-7700x

You'll need kernel 5.18 and Mesa 22 plus recent firmware.

That article was almost 2 years old, so I'd be surprised if all those
are not stable in Gentoo by now.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Matt Connell]

On Wed, 2024-05-15 at 16:25 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> You'll need kernel 5.18 and Mesa 22 plus recent firmware.
> 
> That article was almost 2 years old, so I'd be surprised if all those
> are not stable in Gentoo by now.

Mesa 22 is not.  Only version 24 is stable

:)

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Michael]

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Hi Alan,

On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 15:23:47 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hello, Gentoo.
> 
> My current rig is working well (hence the lack of posts to the list from
> me), but ....
> 
> The time is coming up for me to buy a new PC, the current one being
> around 7 years old.  It's served me well for that time, but nothing
> lasts forever.  Also, it would be nice to be able to build clang and
> rust and friends somewhat faster.
> 
> So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
> inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.
> 
> But in the doc on wiki.gentoo.org, I can't find any mention of inbuilt
> graphics; all references are to graphics _cards_.  Does Gentoo support
> my intended processor's graphics, and if so, how do I go about
> identifying the needed microcode (if any) and so on?  Am I missing
> something obvious in the wiki?

I don't have anything as exotic running here, but you will need amdgpu, plus 
(potentially) amdgpu-pro for your graphics:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/AMDGPU
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/AMDGPU-PRO

You will be able to confirm what is required in respect to firmware and kernel 
graphics driver components once you boot up with a liveUSB.  It will complain 
of any missing firmware.

For microcode, flash the BIOS with the latest OEM firmware and add the 
corresponding AMD family firmware file in your kernel:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/AMD_microcode

If you boot with the latest Ubuntu it will probably load everything required; 
then fish around dmesg and hwinfo, lspci, lscpu, etc. for relevant drivers and 
firmware files.


> As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
> 
> Thanks for the upcoming answers!

WC will be quieter and more expensive than an after market air cooler.  You 
could invest the money toward more RAM, (more/bigger) case fans, a better PSU, 
monitor, speakers, a new car, etc.  :-)

https://www.techreviewer.com/tech-specs/amd-7700x-tdp/

Cranking up 16 threads to 5.4 GHz will produce some heat, but compiles will 
complete sooner too.  I think an air cooler will be equally as effective 
thermally, with fewer components to go wrong.  Either way, consider the space 
envelop in the case because some dual fan air-coolers can be rather large.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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Am Wed, May 15, 2024 at 07:08:11PM +0100 schrieb Michael:
> Hi Alan,
> 
> On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 15:23:47 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > Hello, Gentoo.
> > […]
> > So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
> > inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.
> > 
> […]
> > As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> > cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> > off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> > cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
> > 
> > Thanks for the upcoming answers!
> 
> WC will be quieter and more expensive than an after market air cooler.

Are you sure about the noise? First there is the water pump and second, 
the heat from the air cycle needs to get somewhere, which is donw with fans.
So unless you get a big radiator with several fans, you just relocate the 
fan noise inside the case.

I have a 10 years old i5 with a TDP of I think 84 W. On that sits a normal 
(not even high-performance) tower cooler with a single 120 mm fan. At full 
load the CPU draws around 50 W, maybe even less unless you do prime95. So my 
cooler is basically overkill. But this allows the fan to never leave the 
minimum RPM range of ~500…600 1/min and is unaudible even at full load.
However …

> You could invest the money toward more RAM, (more/bigger) case fans, a 
> better PSU, monitor, speakers, a new car, etc.  :-)
> 
> https://www.techreviewer.com/tech-specs/amd-7700x-tdp/
> 
> Cranking up 16 threads to 5.4 GHz will produce some heat, but compiles will 
> complete sooner too.

… the 7000X are hotheads, because they operate way above the efficiency 
sweetspot just to get the longest bar in benchmark diagrams. If you reduce 
the power target¹ in the BIOS, you lose a few percent in performance, but 
get a disproportionately bigger reduction in energy consumption.

¹ The TDP of a 7700X is 105 W. The maximum permanent power draw is TDP * 1.4 
(ish, can’t remember the exact details right now). So if you reduce the 
target to 84 W, you draw a little over 100 W. That’s easy-peasy for a mormal 
120 mm tower cooler. One additional advantage of an air cooler is that it 
also blows air over your mainboard and its power stages. That’s something 
you don’t get with a water loop and need an extra case fan for—IF you keep 
the CPU on high load all the time which causes more heat buildup in the VRMs.

-- 
Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

The perfect diet: no breakfast in the morning,
in return forego pudding at lunch and then go to bed without dinner.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Michael]

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On Thursday, 16 May 2024 11:13:31 BST Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> Am Wed, May 15, 2024 at 07:08:11PM +0100 schrieb Michael:
> > Hi Alan,
> > 
> > On Wednesday, 15 May 2024 15:23:47 BST Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > > Hello, Gentoo.
> > > […]
> > > So I'm looking at getting an AMD Ryzen 7 7700X processor, and using its
> > > inbuilt graphics rather than buying a distinct graphics card.
> > 
> > […]
> > 
> > > As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> > > cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> > > off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> > > cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
> > > 
> > > Thanks for the upcoming answers!
> > 
> > WC will be quieter and more expensive than an after market air cooler.
> 
> Are you sure about the noise? First there is the water pump and second,
> the heat from the air cycle needs to get somewhere, which is donw with fans.
> So unless you get a big radiator with several fans, you just relocate the
> fan noise inside the case.

Unless faulty a WC pump is inaudible.  A radiator with two 140mm fans will 
just tick over, even under heavy load and overclocked, while I've see AC fans 
spin above 1200 RPM.  Either way, I think there's more noise coming out of 
case fans than the CPU's AC, which is in the guts of the case.

Another way to think about it, the liquid cooling medium can absorb more heat 
until it is saturated enough to start spinning higher the 2 or 3 radiator 
fans, which are typically larger than AC fan(s).

There's also a question of just buying an AIO cooler, or some custom oversized 
build which will be on a different level of performance (and cost).


> I have a 10 years old i5 with a TDP of I think 84 W. On that sits a normal
> (not even high-performance) tower cooler with a single 120 mm fan. At full
> load the CPU draws around 50 W, maybe even less unless you do prime95. So my
> cooler is basically overkill. But this allows the fan to never leave the
> minimum RPM range of ~500…600 1/min and is unaudible even at full load.

Yes, at these RPMs it will be very quiet, but I expect your new CPU will spin 
its AC faster when under load.


> However …
> 
> > You could invest the money toward more RAM, (more/bigger) case fans, a
> > better PSU, monitor, speakers, a new car, etc.  :-)
> > 
> > https://www.techreviewer.com/tech-specs/amd-7700x-tdp/
> > 
> > Cranking up 16 threads to 5.4 GHz will produce some heat, but compiles
> > will
> > complete sooner too.
> 
> … the 7000X are hotheads, because they operate way above the efficiency
> sweetspot just to get the longest bar in benchmark diagrams. If you reduce
> the power target¹ in the BIOS, you lose a few percent in performance, but
> get a disproportionately bigger reduction in energy consumption.
> 
> ¹ The TDP of a 7700X is 105 W. The maximum permanent power draw is TDP * 1.4
> (ish, can’t remember the exact details right now). So if you reduce the
> target to 84 W, you draw a little over 100 W. That’s easy-peasy for a
> mormal 120 mm tower cooler. One additional advantage of an air cooler is
> that it also blows air over your mainboard and its power stages. That’s
> something you don’t get with a water loop and need an extra case fan for—IF
> you keep the CPU on high load all the time which causes more heat buildup
> in the VRMs.

As you say, an AC can also draw air at close proximity over the RAM modules 
and VRMs compared to the more diffused airflow of case fan(s), which is an 
additional benefit.  If you will tune down the CPU, as opposed to O/C it, then 
I think an air cooler will be more than adequate and represent more bang for 
your buck.

I came across this video, but more detailed reviews and tests should be 
available for your specific CPU in the interwebs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxf4ZXJTNpI

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Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[ralfconn]

Il 15/05/24 16:23, Alan Mackenzie ha scritto:
> As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
> cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
> off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
> cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
>
For a Ryzen 9 5900X (105W TDP) here I use a Noctua CPU cooler NH-U12A 
PWM plus a Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM on the case, a pretty expensive solution 
and probably an overkill since even while building for Gentoo @24 
threads the noise is audible but a LOT less than the old FX-8350 (125W 
TDP) with the stock Wraith cooler. During normal work it's almost 
inaudibile. I don't play games.

raf

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Dale]

ralfconn wrote:
> Il 15/05/24 16:23, Alan Mackenzie ha scritto:
>> As a somewhat tangential question, would it be worthwhile getting water
>> cooling in my new machine?  In particular, to reduce the noise it gives
>> off while building large packages such as clang and rust?  Or is water
>> cooling only sensible for really heavy users such as gamers?
>>
> For a Ryzen 9 5900X (105W TDP) here I use a Noctua CPU cooler NH-U12A
> PWM plus a Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM on the case, a pretty expensive
> solution and probably an overkill since even while building for Gentoo
> @24 threads the noise is audible but a LOT less than the old FX-8350
> (125W TDP) with the stock Wraith cooler. During normal work it's
> almost inaudibile. I don't play games.
>
> raf

Question.  How are the compiles times between the old FX-8350 and the
newer Ryzen 9?  I currently have a FX-8350.  Plan to build to a new
Ryzen something, maybe 5 at first.  Just curious what difference in
speed you see. 

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[ralfconn]

Il 16/05/24 20:46, Dale ha scritto:
> Question.  How are the compiles times between the old FX-8350 and the
> newer Ryzen 9?  I currently have a FX-8350.  Plan to build to a new
> Ryzen something, maybe 5 at first.  Just curious what difference in
> speed you see.
I've not saved the merge times for the 8350 so I'll only give you the 
Ryzen 9 times, maybe you can compare with yours:

# qlop -mav net-libs/webkit-gtk
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.44.1-r410: 41′22″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.5-r410: 19′45″ average for 2 merges
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.4-r600: 47′39″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.4-r410: 48′55″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.3-r410: 21′09″ average for 1 merge

# qlop -mav firefox
www-client/firefox-126.0: 31′35″ average for 1 merge
www-client/firefox-125.0.3: 13′29″ average for 1 merge
www-client/firefox-125.0.2: 12′42″ average for 1 merge
www-client/firefox-125.0.1: 30′18″ average for 1 merge

The 2x or more difference in merge times I believe are due to the fact 
that sometimes I build the bigger packages on their own to avoid running 
out of memory, other times I don't so the load gets split amongst 
various compilations and time stretches. I think firefox with the 8350 
was in the hours range, so I had switched to the -bin since long time.

I have 64Gb of RAM to account for the 12cpus/24threads. Even so I can 
run out of memory if I try to build firefox+thunderbird+webkit-gtk at 
the same time, so I often use the --exclude emerge option with these 
behemoths.

I've also had a Ryzen 7 5700X/32Gb for a short time, then I passed it to 
my son and got me the 9. These are the merge times for the webkit-gtk, I 
switched to non-bin firefox only with the 9:

# qlop -mav net-libs/webkit-gtk
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.5-r410: 26′52″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.4-r410: 25′16″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.3-r410: 59′46″ average for 1 merge
net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.2-r410: 32′47″ average for 2 merges

Not a huge difference compared to the 9, as foreseeable, after all it's 
the exact same architecture with some more pepper.

If you go for the Ryzen remember that its instruction set is not 
compatible with the Athlon's so if you built your 8350 system with e.g. 
-march=native (as I did) you need to recompile @world with a less 
restrictive -march before moving the disk to the Ryzen system otherwise 
it won't even boot.

raf

Re: [gentoo-user] Graphics configuration for a Ryzen 7 7700X chip and water cooling.

[Dale]

ralfconn wrote:
> Il 16/05/24 20:46, Dale ha scritto:
>> Question.  How are the compiles times between the old FX-8350 and the
>> newer Ryzen 9?  I currently have a FX-8350.  Plan to build to a new
>> Ryzen something, maybe 5 at first.  Just curious what difference in
>> speed you see.
> I've not saved the merge times for the 8350 so I'll only give you the
> Ryzen 9 times, maybe you can compare with yours:
>
> # qlop -mav net-libs/webkit-gtk
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.44.1-r410: 41′22″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.5-r410: 19′45″ average for 2 merges
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.4-r600: 47′39″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.4-r410: 48′55″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.42.3-r410: 21′09″ average for 1 merge
>
> # qlop -mav firefox
> www-client/firefox-126.0: 31′35″ average for 1 merge
> www-client/firefox-125.0.3: 13′29″ average for 1 merge
> www-client/firefox-125.0.2: 12′42″ average for 1 merge
> www-client/firefox-125.0.1: 30′18″ average for 1 merge
>
> The 2x or more difference in merge times I believe are due to the fact
> that sometimes I build the bigger packages on their own to avoid
> running out of memory, other times I don't so the load gets split
> amongst various compilations and time stretches. I think firefox with
> the 8350 was in the hours range, so I had switched to the -bin since
> long time.
>
> I have 64Gb of RAM to account for the 12cpus/24threads. Even so I can
> run out of memory if I try to build firefox+thunderbird+webkit-gtk at
> the same time, so I often use the --exclude emerge option with these
> behemoths.
>
> I've also had a Ryzen 7 5700X/32Gb for a short time, then I passed it
> to my son and got me the 9. These are the merge times for the
> webkit-gtk, I switched to non-bin firefox only with the 9:
>
> # qlop -mav net-libs/webkit-gtk
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.5-r410: 26′52″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.4-r410: 25′16″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.3-r410: 59′46″ average for 1 merge
> net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.40.2-r410: 32′47″ average for 2 merges
>
> Not a huge difference compared to the 9, as foreseeable, after all
> it's the exact same architecture with some more pepper.
>
> If you go for the Ryzen remember that its instruction set is not
> compatible with the Athlon's so if you built your 8350 system with
> e.g. -march=native (as I did) you need to recompile @world with a less
> restrictive -march before moving the disk to the Ryzen system
> otherwise it won't even boot.
>
> raf
>
>

The only package I can compare to is Firefox.  I don't have the other
one.  Still, it compiles Firefox a lot faster.  It's a pretty good size
difference in speed. 

Thanks for the info.  Helps me know what to expect. 

Dale

:-)  :-)