[gentoo-user] PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[gentoo-user] PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Dale]

Howdy,

I bought a extra PCIe SATA expansion card.  I mostly wanted a extra.  I
have a 10 port in my main rig and thought I was buying one like that
one, in case it breaks.  When I put it in the old NAS box rig to test,
my ethernet wouldn't work.  I tried a different slot but same thing.  I
found it odd that it would recognize the hard drive plugged into the
card tho.  o_O  I shutdown the rig and pulled the card.  I was checking
the card and connector on the mobo when I noticed the card said 3.0
right where it plugs into the mobo.  Ooops. 

First, I thought cards were backward compatible?  You could stick a 3.0
into a 2.0 slot and it would just run as a 2.0 and vice versa.  I know
the mobo is 2.0.  It does recognize the drive but seems to nuke the
ethernet somehow.  I looked, there is no switches on the card.  I don't
see a way to adjust how it works or anything.

Second, what is the best way to know, from the card itself, what version
PCIe it is?  If it just says PCIe or PCIe with x1, x4, x16 or something
for those that include that info, can one assume it is 2.0?  It seems
the ones that are 3.0 are marked as such.  I don't want to buy another
card and get another one that won't work in either the NAS box or my
current main rig. At least I have cards for the new rig if I need one. 
Although I was planning to buy a x4 or x8 card with lots of ports.  I
was hoping for a speed improvement with the extra 'lanes' I think they
called.  I could use those m.2 to SATA thingys too. 

I already found pics that help me identify PCI, PCIe, x1, x2, x4,x8 and
x16 slots.  Basically, the longer it is, the larger the number.  So, I
got that.  I can't find a way to look at a card or a picture of a card
and know if it is v2.0, v3.0 or v4.0 if those exist.  I'm looking for
some guidance.  Sadly, some don't include that info in the description
of the card either. 

Thanks for any tips or tricks to know which is which. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[karl]

Dale:
...
> First, I thought cards were backward compatible?  You could stick a 3.0
> into a 2.0 slot and it would just run as a 2.0 and vice versa.  I know
> the mobo is 2.0.  It does recognize the drive but seems to nuke the
> ethernet somehow.  I looked, there is no switches on the card.  I don't
> see a way to adjust how it works or anything.
...

 From first section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#PCI_Express_3.0

  PCI Express 3.0 Base specification revision 3.0 was made available in
  November 2010, after multiple delays. In August 2007, PCI-SIG announced
  that PCI Express 3.0 would carry a bit rate of 8 gigatransfers per second
  (GT/s), and that it would be backward compatible with existing PCI
  Express implementations.

 Though in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#Comparison_table
 they are said to have different encodings.

 Unfortunately the specs (https://pcisig.com/specifications) are only
 available for members.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

Re: [gentoo-user] PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Dale]

karl@aspodata.se wrote:
> Dale:
> ...
>> First, I thought cards were backward compatible?  You could stick a 3.0
>> into a 2.0 slot and it would just run as a 2.0 and vice versa.  I know
>> the mobo is 2.0.  It does recognize the drive but seems to nuke the
>> ethernet somehow.  I looked, there is no switches on the card.  I don't
>> see a way to adjust how it works or anything.
> ...
>
>  From first section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#PCI_Express_3.0
>
>   PCI Express 3.0 Base specification revision 3.0 was made available in
>   November 2010, after multiple delays. In August 2007, PCI-SIG announced
>   that PCI Express 3.0 would carry a bit rate of 8 gigatransfers per second
>   (GT/s), and that it would be backward compatible with existing PCI
>   Express implementations.
>
>  Though in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#Comparison_table
>  they are said to have different encodings.
>
>  Unfortunately the specs (https://pcisig.com/specifications) are only
>  available for members.
>
> Regards,
> /Karl Hammar

That's what I was thinking to, being backward compatible.  I might add,
when I did cat /proc/partitions, it listed the drive plugged into the
card.  The card seems to have worked.  Thing is, no matter what slot I
put the SATA card into, it would kill my builtin network.  When I tried
to bring it up, it said the network didn't exist.  At first I thought it
was a shared slot or something.  It did the same thing in every slot
tho.  Also, when I removed the SATA card, the network came up on the
next boot up.  That SATA card is doing something bad. 

You, or anyone, have any idea why that card would kill my network?  I
suspect the card itself is fine.  It did see the drive.  I just need the
internet to work since it may be used in a NAS rig. 

I been searching, ebay and Amazon.  I found a couple cards on Amazon
that specify PCIe v2.0.  I couldn't find any with 8 ports or more on
Ebay that didn't say 3.0.  The ones on Amazon specify in the description
that they are v2.0.  That is what I usually get.  On the card, it
doesn't have anything but PCIe wrote on it or nothing at all.  It seems
if it isn't marked, it is v2.0 or maybe v1.0 if one can find one.  If it
is v3.0, it is marked that way.  Anyone seen any cards that disagrees
with that? 

I hope someone has a clue to make this card work.  I checked the BIOS
too, couldn't find anything in there.  Might try a ethernet card and
disable the onboard network.  See if that makes the network come up at
least.  I have another card just like this one already on the way.  I
may have two cards that won't let my network work when installed.  :/  
I may also have to buy those cards off Amazon that specify v2.0. 

Open to ideas. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[mad.scientist.at.large]

For card specs I always do a web search with the model number, though you may have to put it in a slot to read that info.  Most of the cards I buy come from ebay, used, so I'm always looking up the specs.  

If it's from a server looking up the part number from one of the labels should work.  

For the ones I decide to buy I always get the manuals and latest firmware, also via a search on the manufacturers site or on the web in general.  Most  companies are good about keeping even the information on obsolete cards available but some are terrible about that.

May 20, 2024, 13:28 by karl@aspodata.se:

> Dale:
> ...
>
>> First, I thought cards were backward compatible?  You could stick a 3.0
>> into a 2.0 slot and it would just run as a 2.0 and vice versa.  I know
>> the mobo is 2.0.  It does recognize the drive but seems to nuke the
>> ethernet somehow.  I looked, there is no switches on the card.  I don't
>> see a way to adjust how it works or anything.
>>
> ...
>
>  From first section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#PCI_Express_3.0
>
>  PCI Express 3.0 Base specification revision 3.0 was made available in
>  November 2010, after multiple delays. In August 2007, PCI-SIG announced
>  that PCI Express 3.0 would carry a bit rate of 8 gigatransfers per second
>  (GT/s), and that it would be backward compatible with existing PCI
>  Express implementations.
>
>  Though in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#Comparison_table
>  they are said to have different encodings.
>
>  Unfortunately the specs (https://pcisig.com/specifications) are only
>  available for members.
>
> Regards,
> /Karl Hammar
>

Re: [gentoo-user] PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[mad.scientist.at.large]

You probably need to adjust the bios, possibly starting with the fail safe or optimized defaults and then changing what you need to after everything is basically working.


May 20, 2024, 14:26 by :

> For card specs I always do a web search with the model number, though you may have to put it in a slot to read that info.  Most of the cards I buy come from ebay, used, so I'm always looking up the specs.  
>
> If it's from a server looking up the part number from one of the labels should work.  
>
> For the ones I decide to buy I always get the manuals and latest firmware, also via a search on the manufacturers site or on the web in general.  Most  companies are good about keeping even the information on obsolete cards available but some are terrible about that.
>
> May 20, 2024, 13:28 by karl@aspodata.se:
>
>> Dale:
>> ...
>>
>>> First, I thought cards were backward compatible?  You could stick a 3.0
>>> into a 2.0 slot and it would just run as a 2.0 and vice versa.  I know
>>> the mobo is 2.0.  It does recognize the drive but seems to nuke the
>>> ethernet somehow.  I looked, there is no switches on the card.  I don't
>>> see a way to adjust how it works or anything.
>>>
>> ...
>>
>>  From first section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#PCI_Express_3.0
>>
>>  PCI Express 3.0 Base specification revision 3.0 was made available in
>>  November 2010, after multiple delays. In August 2007, PCI-SIG announced
>>  that PCI Express 3.0 would carry a bit rate of 8 gigatransfers per second
>>  (GT/s), and that it would be backward compatible with existing PCI
>>  Express implementations.
>>
>>  Though in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#Comparison_table
>>  they are said to have different encodings.
>>
>>  Unfortunately the specs (https://pcisig.com/specifications) are only
>>  available for members.
>>
>> Regards,
>> /Karl Hammar
>>

Re: [gentoo-user] PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Dale]

mad.scientist.at.large@tutanota.com wrote:
> You probably need to adjust the bios, possibly starting with the fail safe or optimized defaults and then changing what you need to after everything is basically working.
>

I tried it and same thing.  It was a good thought tho.  I tend to run
the defaults, except disabling the splash screen thing, but still, it
could have helped. 

I noticed a new message right after the BIOS post and Grub loading.  It
says, typing by hand from a video. 

Warning: Have option ROM can not be invoke (Vendor ID: 1B21h, Deivce ID:

Typo is theirs.  It should be device I think.  Also, very last bit is
under a thing the monitor puts on the screen right after it powers up. 
It never shows what's under it.  I think it is translated from another
language.  I looked up the ID and it is the vendor for the chip on the
SATA card, ASMedia.  So, pretty sure that is related to the SATA card. 
After that message, it usually lists all the drives it sees.  It doesn't
list anything but the drive with the OS on it.  My main rig does the
same.  It's only when the kernel loads and Gentoo starts booting using
its driver that the drives connected to the card are seen.  I have to
make sure to put my DVD drive and OS drive on the mobo itself.  I also
put the drive with /home on the mobo.  The other data drives that are
not needed until I login and decrypt them are connected to the SATA
cards.  It's just how it works with this mobo, maybe all of them. 

Anyway, BIOS reset didn't help.  Maybe that error above will give
someone a clue.  Google isn't much help either.  :/

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Mark Knecht]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2184 bytes --]

On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 12:09 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
<SNIP>
> First, I thought cards were backward compatible?  You could stick a 3.0
> into a 2.0 slot and it would just run as a 2.0 and vice versa.  I know
> the mobo is 2.0.  It does recognize the drive but seems to nuke the
> ethernet somehow.  I looked, there is no switches on the card.  I don't
> see a way to adjust how it works or anything.
>
<SNIP>

You've gotten a number of good answers so I won't duplicate any
of that, but as someone who worked designing PCI and PCI Express
hardware I make a couple of observations:

1) A hardware spec can be backward compatible but if BIOS
doesn't, or didn't at the time, do everything correctly, then a
PCI Express chip mounted on an adapter card and misprogrammed
by BIOS can cause a lot of problems.

2) To me, this problem smells of the sort of thing we used to
see when BIOS (or potentially the OS) didn't handle PCI
Bridges correctly.

The way a lot of this Wide PCI Express to multiple slow
interfaces work is by embedding a PCI Express Bridge
inside the chip and then branching out to independant
PCI Express (or just PCI) narrow devices inside the chip
and behind the bridge.

You can see a representation of this stuff using the
commands:

lspci
lspci -t -v (or -vvv)

The numbers you see are the PCI device number BIOS
has given each device. If a device number has a dot
something value then these are subdevices inside the
chip. When you see the depth getting large and you
start to see sub-busses you are actually getting there
through a bridge.

The problem is a lot of old BIOS's didn't handle bridges
correctly, and a lot of bridges didn't work correctly, and
the PCI Bridge specs were changing along the way.

If you look at the tree structure with the card out and card
in the machine then you may find out that there is a
problem, such as the network controller not showing up.

As the network controller is likely in the motherboard
chipset it is possible that a PCI Express network adapter
will do better, but that's sort of hunt and peck.

Best wishes, good luck and happy hunting,
Mark

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Re: [gentoo-user] PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Dale]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3173 bytes --]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 12:09 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com
> <mailto:rdalek1967@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> <SNIP>
> > First, I thought cards were backward compatible?  You could stick a 3.0
> > into a 2.0 slot and it would just run as a 2.0 and vice versa.  I know
> > the mobo is 2.0.  It does recognize the drive but seems to nuke the
> > ethernet somehow.  I looked, there is no switches on the card.  I don't
> > see a way to adjust how it works or anything.
> >
> <SNIP>
>
> You've gotten a number of good answers so I won't duplicate any
> of that, but as someone who worked designing PCI and PCI Express
> hardware I make a couple of observations:
>
> 1) A hardware spec can be backward compatible but if BIOS 
> doesn't, or didn't at the time, do everything correctly, then a 
> PCI Express chip mounted on an adapter card and misprogrammed
> by BIOS can cause a lot of problems.
>
> 2) To me, this problem smells of the sort of thing we used to
> see when BIOS (or potentially the OS) didn't handle PCI
> Bridges correctly.
>
> The way a lot of this Wide PCI Express to multiple slow
> interfaces work is by embedding a PCI Express Bridge 
> inside the chip and then branching out to independant 
> PCI Express (or just PCI) narrow devices inside the chip
> and behind the bridge. 
>
> You can see a representation of this stuff using the 
> commands:
>
> lspci 
> lspci -t -v (or -vvv) 
>
> The numbers you see are the PCI device number BIOS
> has given each device. If a device number has a dot 
> something value then these are subdevices inside the
> chip. When you see the depth getting large and you 
> start to see sub-busses you are actually getting there
> through a bridge. 
>
> The problem is a lot of old BIOS's didn't handle bridges
> correctly, and a lot of bridges didn't work correctly, and
> the PCI Bridge specs were changing along the way.
>
> If you look at the tree structure with the card out and card 
> in the machine then you may find out that there is a
> problem, such as the network controller not showing up.
>
> As the network controller is likely in the motherboard
> chipset it is possible that a PCI Express network adapter
> will do better, but that's sort of hunt and peck.
>
> Best wishes, good luck and happy hunting,
> Mark

You could be right.  I did find one interesting post in my google
search, one person updated their BIOS and fixed the issue.  Pretty sure
mine is up to date.  Given the age of the mobo, I doubt they even think
of releasing a new BIOS for that old thing. 

Anyway, I found a card with a Marvel chip instead of ASMedia.  It also
says in the description that it is PCIe v2.0.  I'm hoping it will work. 

I need to read up more on lspci.  I mostly use the -k option to show
kernel drivers in use for each chip thing.  I've never used the -t
option.  Gonna go play with that a bit. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

P. S.  I had started saving up for my new rig again.  Tank on my toilet
cracked and started leaking.  Pardon the pun, the money I had saved up,
got flushed.  :-(  Got a new toilet tho.  I keep playing with the lid. 
It closes itself.  O_O 

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Re: [gentoo-user] PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Mark Knecht]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1002 bytes --]

> You could be right.  I did find one interesting post in my google search,
one person updated their BIOS and fixed the issue.  Pretty sure mine is up
to date.  Given the age of the mobo, I doubt they even think of releasing a
new BIOS for that old thing.
>
> Anyway, I found a card with a Marvel chip instead of ASMedia.  It also
says in the description that it is PCIe v2.0.  I'm hoping it will work.
>
> I need to read up more on lspci.  I mostly use the -k option to show
kernel drivers in use for each chip thing.  I've never used the -t option.
Gonna go play with that a bit.
>
-k is good. -n, -t, -v come in handy. You can also dump
the PCI config space to look at address mapping if that
comes up. (And might be useful if it turns out the SATA
card and network controller are both identifiable but
somehow overlapping each other, which would be VERY
bad if it happened)

Anyway, if you dig in and provide data someone here
can help where your background isn't deep enough
or it gets confusing.

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[gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-20, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

A 3.0 card is supposed to work fine in a 2.0 slot.

> You, or anyone, have any idea why that card would kill my network? 
> I suspect the card itself is fine.  It did see the drive.  I just
> need the internet to work since it may be used in a NAS rig.

Is it causing the network interface to not show up at all in lspci?

Is it causing the network device name to change?

Or is the network interface still detected, still named the same, and
just doesn't send/receive packets?

It could be some sort of interrupt sharing problem. Even with PCI
express, cards still sometimes have to share interrupts.  Intel/IBM
made that bad decision 45 years ago, and we're still suffering because
of it.  If that the problem, sometimes you can avoid it by physically
rearranging the cards.

The later PCI hosts/boards finally came up with a way to avoid it, but
a lot of cards still don't support that.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2024-05-20, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A 3.0 card is supposed to work fine in a 2.0 slot.
>
>> You, or anyone, have any idea why that card would kill my network? 
>> I suspect the card itself is fine.  It did see the drive.  I just
>> need the internet to work since it may be used in a NAS rig.
> Is it causing the network interface to not show up at all in lspci?
>
> Is it causing the network device name to change?
>
> Or is the network interface still detected, still named the same, and
> just doesn't send/receive packets?
>
> It could be some sort of interrupt sharing problem. Even with PCI
> express, cards still sometimes have to share interrupts.  Intel/IBM
> made that bad decision 45 years ago, and we're still suffering because
> of it.  If that the problem, sometimes you can avoid it by physically
> rearranging the cards.
>
> The later PCI hosts/boards finally came up with a way to avoid it, but
> a lot of cards still don't support that.
>
> --
> Grant


It does show up in lspci.  This is the output of lspci -tv.  The SATA
card is about 4 down.  The network is about 6 down. 



-[0000:00]-+-00.0  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] RX780/RX790
Host Bridge
           +-02.0-[01]--+-00.0  NVIDIA Corporation GK107 [NVS 510]
           |            \-00.1  NVIDIA Corporation GK107 HDMI Audio
Controller
           +-07.0-[02]----00.0  ASMedia Technology Inc. ASM1166 Serial
ATA Controller
           +-09.0-[03]----00.0  NEC Corporation uPD720200 USB 3.0 Host
Controller
           +-0a.0-[04]----00.0  Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd.
RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet Controller
           +-11.0  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 SATA Controller [AHCI mode]
           +-12.0  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller
           +-12.1  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SB7x0 USB
OHCI1 Controller
           +-12.2  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller
           +-13.0  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller
           +-13.1  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SB7x0 USB
OHCI1 Controller
           +-13.2  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller
           +-14.0  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SBx00 SMBus
Controller
           +-14.1  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 IDE Controller
           +-14.2  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SBx00 Azalia
(Intel HDA)
           +-14.3  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 LPC host controller
           +-14.4-[05]----0e.0  Texas Instruments TSB43AB23
IEEE-1394a-2000 Controller (PHY/Link)
           +-14.5  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI]
SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI2 Controller
           +-18.0  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 10h
Processor HyperTransport Configuration
           +-18.1  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 10h
Processor Address Map
           +-18.2  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 10h
Processor DRAM Controller
           +-18.3  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 10h
Processor Miscellaneous Control
           \-18.4  Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 10h
Processor Link Control



So they both show up.  When I try to start the network, it says:


ERROR: Interface enp3s0 does not exist.
Ensure that you have loaded the correct kernel module for your hardware.


I find that odd since it obviously sees the card.  It's in the list
above after all.  So, it sees the card but can't see it.  0_o  Odd. 

I tried different slots for the SATA card and they all do the same
thing.  Wouldn't each slot have a different interrupt?  It's been ages
since I had to deal with any of that.  Mostly it was on IDE drives and
the master/slave thing.  Oh, the other odd thing, it sees drives
connected to the SATA card as well. 

It was at this point, I checked your suggestion.  I looked and noticed
that the network card was now at slot 4 not slot 3 like it used to be. 
So, I created a new link to slot 4.  The network came up.  So,
basically, it changed names as you suggested. I thought the purpose of
the enp* names was that they are consistent.  Adding or removing cards
wouldn't change the names of cards, like network cards.  It seems, in
this case at least, the names can change.  Any way to make adding the
card not change this??  I tend to not have a monitor or keyboard
connected to this rig.

This is great tho.  I now have one extra SATA card already here. 
Another that I ordered a couple weeks ago that is still on the way.  I
also have two more from Amazon on the way.  Two 10 port cards, two 8
port ones.  That's 36 drives.  I think I'm all stocked up on SATA cards
now.  I need more hard drives, still.  According to du, I have 67TBs of
data here not including backups.  0_0

We got it all working.  It never occurred to me that the slot number
would change.  Still, I need to figure out how to make the network come
up whether the card is installed or not.  Me thinks.

Thanks for the tip.  It certainly helped.  I wasn't expecting that to
change. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, May 21, 2024 at 6:38 AM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So, I created a new link to slot 4.  The network came up.  So,
> basically, it changed names as you suggested. I thought the purpose of
> the enp* names was that they are consistent.  Adding or removing cards
> wouldn't change the names of cards, like network cards.

Nope, persistent names are only persistent as long as there are no
hardware changes.

Under the old system if you had 10 NICs on a host, on any reboot some
of them could change names, at least in theory.  Under the new system
if you have 10 NICs on one host and don't touch the hardware, the
names will never change.

Under the old system if you had 1 NIC in a host, the name would never
change even if the hardware did change.  Under the new system if you
have 1 NIC in a host, the name could change if the hardware changes.

It is basically a tradeoff, which makes life much better if you have
multiple NICs, and marginally worse if you have only one.  However,
hardware changes than can cause a name change are probably rare, and
if you have only one NIC then ideally your network manager can just
use wildcards to not care so much about the name.  I usually stick e*
in my networkd config for the device name on single-NIC hosts.  If you
have multiple NICs then I maybe there is a better way to go about it -
maybe there is a network manager that can use more data from the NIC
itself to track them.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[karl]

Dale:
...
> ERROR: Interface enp3s0 does not exist.
> Ensure that you have loaded the correct kernel module for your hardware.
...

 Do:
cat /proc/net/dev

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 21 May 2024 06:51:51 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:

>  I usually stick e*
> in my networkd config for the device name on single-NIC hosts.  If you
> have multiple NICs then I maybe there is a better way to go about it -
> maybe there is a network manager that can use more data from the NIC
> itself to track them.

systemd .network definitions can match on MAC address, if that helps.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

... "I dropped my toothpaste," Tom said, Crestfallen.

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[gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> So they both show up.  When I try to start the network, it says:
>
> ERROR: Interface enp3s0 does not exist.

Are you sure the network interface name hasn't changed?  What does
"ifconfig -a" or "ip addr" show?

After booting up, what does "dmesg | grep enp" show?

> Ensure that you have loaded the correct kernel module for your hardware.
>
>
> I find that odd since it obviously sees the card.  It's in the list
> above after all.  So, it sees the card but can't see it.  0_o  Odd. 

Identifying the presense of a PCI card and creating the device by
which is is accessed are two different things.

> I tried different slots for the SATA card and they all do the same
> thing.  Wouldn't each slot have a different interrupt?

No.  If cards are using legacy interrupts (most do) there are four
interrupts (A,B,C,D) that are shared by all cards (just like there
always were). Newer cards and motherboards can use something called
MSI or MSI-X interrupts that aren't shared, but in my experience the
use of those isn't very widespread.

> It was at this point, I checked your suggestion.  I looked and noticed
> that the network card was now at slot 4 not slot 3 like it used to be. 
> So, I created a new link to slot 4.  The network came up.  So,
> basically, it changed names as you suggested. I thought the purpose of
> the enp* names was that they are consistent. 

They are consistent through reboots.  They are not consistent if you
change hardware.

> Adding or removing cards wouldn't change the names of cards, like
> network cards.

Yes, it can.

> It seems, in this case at least, the names can change.  Any way to
> make adding the card not change this??  I tend to not have a monitor
> or keyboard connected to this rig.

If you want consisent network device names (even when you change
hardware), you need to either

 1. create udev rules that assign device names based on MAC addresses.

 2. use a network configuration subsystem that assigns device names
    and configurations based on MAC addresses.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2024-05-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So they both show up.  When I try to start the network, it says:
>>
>> ERROR: Interface enp3s0 does not exist.
> Are you sure the network interface name hasn't changed?  What does
> "ifconfig -a" or "ip addr" show?
>
> After booting up, what does "dmesg | grep enp" show?
>
>> Ensure that you have loaded the correct kernel module for your hardware.
>>
>>
>> I find that odd since it obviously sees the card.  It's in the list
>> above after all.  So, it sees the card but can't see it.  0_o  Odd. 
> Identifying the presense of a PCI card and creating the device by
> which is is accessed are two different things.
>
>> I tried different slots for the SATA card and they all do the same
>> thing.  Wouldn't each slot have a different interrupt?
> No.  If cards are using legacy interrupts (most do) there are four
> interrupts (A,B,C,D) that are shared by all cards (just like there
> always were). Newer cards and motherboards can use something called
> MSI or MSI-X interrupts that aren't shared, but in my experience the
> use of those isn't very widespread.
>
>> It was at this point, I checked your suggestion.  I looked and noticed
>> that the network card was now at slot 4 not slot 3 like it used to be. 
>> So, I created a new link to slot 4.  The network came up.  So,
>> basically, it changed names as you suggested. I thought the purpose of
>> the enp* names was that they are consistent. 
> They are consistent through reboots.  They are not consistent if you
> change hardware.
>
>> Adding or removing cards wouldn't change the names of cards, like
>> network cards.
> Yes, it can.
>
>> It seems, in this case at least, the names can change.  Any way to
>> make adding the card not change this??  I tend to not have a monitor
>> or keyboard connected to this rig.
> If you want consisent network device names (even when you change
> hardware), you need to either
>
>  1. create udev rules that assign device names based on MAC addresses.
>
>  2. use a network configuration subsystem that assigns device names
>     and configurations based on MAC addresses.
>
> --
> Grant

Do you, or someone else, know of a good howto on how to use MAC
addresses like that?  Given this thing is usually remotely accessed, I
really need it to be consistent with or without the card.  Maybe you
have a bookmarked link saved somewhere.  I'm on openrc to.  I'll google
around but you, or someone else here, may have a really good and simple
howto link. 

Well, learned something in the past couple days.  Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:


>> If you want consisent network device names (even when you change
>> hardware), you need to either
>>
>>  1. create udev rules that assign device names based on MAC addresses.
>>
>>  2. use a network configuration subsystem that assigns device names
>>     and configurations based on MAC addresses.
>
> Do you, or someone else, know of a good howto on how to use MAC
> addresses like that?  Given this thing is usually remotely accessed, I
> really need it to be consistent with or without the card.  Maybe you
> have a bookmarked link saved somewhere.  I'm on openrc to.  I'll google
> around but you, or someone else here, may have a really good and simple
> howto link. 

The udev way is probably the most universal. Some distros will create
udev rules automagically so that network interface names persist over
hardware changes, but Gentoo doesn't.  Here's my udev rules file that
defines my network interface names for the machine I'm on at the moment:

------------------/etc/udev/rules.d/70-my-persistent-net.rules-----------------------
SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="2c:f0:5d:6f:10:af", NAME="net0"
SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="00:1b:21:b1:d1:e9", NAME="net1"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I used to use "ethN" instead of "netN", but those names are used
internally by the kernel during startup, and people were warned not to
use them in udev rules because of certain race conditions that might
happen.  I never ran into problems using "ethN" names, but eventually
decided not to push my luck.

The network configuration route depends on what network configuration
(and possibly init) system you use.  I know how to do it that way on
Ubunutu (which is systemd based) using netplan...

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2024-05-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> If you want consisent network device names (even when you change
>>> hardware), you need to either
>>>
>>>  1. create udev rules that assign device names based on MAC addresses.
>>>
>>>  2. use a network configuration subsystem that assigns device names
>>>     and configurations based on MAC addresses.
>> Do you, or someone else, know of a good howto on how to use MAC
>> addresses like that?  Given this thing is usually remotely accessed, I
>> really need it to be consistent with or without the card.  Maybe you
>> have a bookmarked link saved somewhere.  I'm on openrc to.  I'll google
>> around but you, or someone else here, may have a really good and simple
>> howto link. 
> The udev way is probably the most universal. Some distros will create
> udev rules automagically so that network interface names persist over
> hardware changes, but Gentoo doesn't.  Here's my udev rules file that
> defines my network interface names for the machine I'm on at the moment:
>
> ------------------/etc/udev/rules.d/70-my-persistent-net.rules-----------------------
> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="2c:f0:5d:6f:10:af", NAME="net0"
> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="00:1b:21:b1:d1:e9", NAME="net1"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I used to use "ethN" instead of "netN", but those names are used
> internally by the kernel during startup, and people were warned not to
> use them in udev rules because of certain race conditions that might
> happen.  I never ran into problems using "ethN" names, but eventually
> decided not to push my luck.
>
> The network configuration route depends on what network configuration
> (and possibly init) system you use.  I know how to do it that way on
> Ubunutu (which is systemd based) using netplan...
>
> --
> Grant

Examples do help a lot.  I do use the enp* naming scheme.  My
understanding, that is the "new" way.  Based on your config, I would
need to change the NAME= to enp* names and that would correct that. 
Where you have ATTR, is that a quote or did you edit to remove a number,
MAC address, IP or something?  If it is one of those, where do I find
that info?  I checked ifconfig and didn't see a MAC address.  I also
checked lspci -v.  I'm not sure where you get the needed info from. 
BTW, right now, I'm on my main rig. 

I have the package net-misc/networkmanager installed.  Most likely
pulled in by something else.  Could I use it to configure this?  I also
have KDE installed on the NAS box, it is also a backup rig in case my
main rig dies.  It may have a GUI that I could use.  I'm not opposed to
the command line way tho.  Biggest thing, copy and paste would be nice. 
;-) 

I'm trying to hoe weeds in my garden at the moment.  Hoe a little, take
a break, then repeat.  I did sharpen the edge on my hoe tho.  If I touch
it, it's cut.  Makes it a lot easier. 

Thanks. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Here's my udev rules file that defines my network interface names
>> for the machine I'm on at the moment:
>>
>> ------------------/etc/udev/rules.d/70-my-persistent-net.rules-----------------------
>> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="2c:f0:5d:6f:10:af", NAME="net0"
>> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="00:1b:21:b1:d1:e9", NAME="net1"
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Examples do help a lot.  I do use the enp* naming scheme.  My
> understanding, that is the "new" way.

The suffix for those enp* names comes from the PCI bus subsystem based
on bus number, slot number, etc.  [Yes, slot number apparently does
change based on what PCIe cards are present. No, that doesn't make
sense to me either]

> Based on your config, I would need to change the NAME= to enp* names
> and that would correct that.

I suppose you could, but I would not use enp* names. Those could
conflict with the autogenerated names.

> Where you have ATTR, is that a quote or did you edit to remove a
> number, MAC address, IP or something? 

What I posted is exactly what's in the file
(without the ----------- delimiters).

Here's more documentation:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Udev
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/udev
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Network_configuration#Change_interface_name

[The arch Wiki is always a good fallback if the Gentoo manual/Wiki
don't have what you're looking for.]

> If it is one of those, where do I find that info?  I checked
> ifconfig and didn't see a MAC address.  I also checked lspci -v. 
> I'm not sure where you get the needed info from.   BTW, right now,
> I'm on my main rig. 

The only thing you need to change from my example would be the mac
address(es) (e.g. 2c:f0:5d:6f:10:af) and the names (e.g. net0).

> I have the package net-misc/networkmanager installed.  Most likely
> pulled in by something else.  Could I use it to configure this? 

Possibly, I don't use networkmanager and don't know how it works on
Gentoo.  I use the default Gentoo netifrc scheme
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Netifrc.

> I also have KDE installed on the NAS box, it is also a backup rig in
> case my main rig dies.  It may have a GUI that I could use.  I'm not
> opposed to the command line way tho.  Biggest thing, copy and paste
> would be nice. 

I don't know much of anything about KDE.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2024-05-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Here's my udev rules file that defines my network interface names
>>> for the machine I'm on at the moment:
>>>
>>> ------------------/etc/udev/rules.d/70-my-persistent-net.rules-----------------------
>>> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="2c:f0:5d:6f:10:af", NAME="net0"
>>> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="00:1b:21:b1:d1:e9", NAME="net1"
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Examples do help a lot.  I do use the enp* naming scheme.  My
>> understanding, that is the "new" way.
> The suffix for those enp* names comes from the PCI bus subsystem based
> on bus number, slot number, etc.  [Yes, slot number apparently does
> change based on what PCIe cards are present. No, that doesn't make
> sense to me either]
>
>> Based on your config, I would need to change the NAME= to enp* names
>> and that would correct that.
> I suppose you could, but I would not use enp* names. Those could
> conflict with the autogenerated names.
>
>> Where you have ATTR, is that a quote or did you edit to remove a
>> number, MAC address, IP or something? 
> What I posted is exactly what's in the file
> (without the ----------- delimiters).
>
> Here's more documentation:
>
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Udev
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/udev
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Network_configuration#Change_interface_name
>
> [The arch Wiki is always a good fallback if the Gentoo manual/Wiki
> don't have what you're looking for.]
>
>> If it is one of those, where do I find that info?  I checked
>> ifconfig and didn't see a MAC address.  I also checked lspci -v. 
>> I'm not sure where you get the needed info from.   BTW, right now,
>> I'm on my main rig. 
> The only thing you need to change from my example would be the mac
> address(es) (e.g. 2c:f0:5d:6f:10:af) and the names (e.g. net0).
>
>> I have the package net-misc/networkmanager installed.  Most likely
>> pulled in by something else.  Could I use it to configure this? 
> Possibly, I don't use networkmanager and don't know how it works on
> Gentoo.  I use the default Gentoo netifrc scheme
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Netifrc.
>
>> I also have KDE installed on the NAS box, it is also a backup rig in
>> case my main rig dies.  It may have a GUI that I could use.  I'm not
>> opposed to the command line way tho.  Biggest thing, copy and paste
>> would be nice. 
> I don't know much of anything about KDE.
>
> --
> Grant

Got a little busy with my garden.  Found my first zucchini yesterday. 
Ready to pick in a few days.  Found some small tomatoes too.  Anyway. 
Did manage to create this rule tho.  This look reasonable?  I'm thinking
it should be named something else tho.  It could clash with the usual
name. 

# PCI device 0x11ab:0x4363 (Intel e1000e)
#SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", DRIVERS=="?*",
ATTR{address}=="68:05:ca:42:17:39",ATTR{dev_id}=="0x0", ATTR{type}=="1",
KERNEL=="eth*", NAME="enp3s0"

I got the ATTR address from ifconfig.  I'm not real sure on the other
ATTR variables tho.

I did this on my main rig.  It is commented out at the moment.  I'll use
it as a guide on the NAS box tho.  May enable this on my main rig, just
so they all the same.

Ironically, I removed the net.enp* from the default runlevel and put
dhcpd back.  It starts no matter where the card is located with that. 
It just sees it, starts it and carries on.  Still, I'd like all my
installs to be done the same way.  It's hard enough to remember how to
do things.  :/

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2024-05-28, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2024-05-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Here's my udev rules file that defines my network interface names
>>>> for the machine I'm on at the moment:
>>>>
>>>> ------------------/etc/udev/rules.d/70-my-persistent-net.rules-----------------------
>>>> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="2c:f0:5d:6f:10:af", NAME="net0"
>>>> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="00:1b:21:b1:d1:e9", NAME="net1"
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Got a little busy with my garden.  Found my first zucchini yesterday. 
> Ready to pick in a few days.  Found some small tomatoes too.  Anyway. 
> Did manage to create this rule tho.  This look reasonable?  I'm thinking
> it should be named something else tho.  It could clash with the usual
> name. 
>
> # PCI device 0x11ab:0x4363 (Intel e1000e)
> #SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", DRIVERS=="?*",
> ATTR{address}=="68:05:ca:42:17:39",ATTR{dev_id}=="0x0", ATTR{type}=="1",
> KERNEL=="eth*", NAME="enp3s0"

Did my examples (with the MAC addresses and device names changed) not
work?

> I got the ATTR address from ifconfig.  I'm not real sure on the other
> ATTR variables tho.

I don't use the other other ATTRs, ACTION, DRIVERS, or KERNEL and I
don't know why you added them, so I can't comment.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2024-05-28, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Here's my udev rules file that defines my network interface names
>>>>> for the machine I'm on at the moment:
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------/etc/udev/rules.d/70-my-persistent-net.rules-----------------------
>>>>> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="2c:f0:5d:6f:10:af", NAME="net0"
>>>>> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="00:1b:21:b1:d1:e9", NAME="net1"
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Got a little busy with my garden.  Found my first zucchini yesterday. 
>> Ready to pick in a few days.  Found some small tomatoes too.  Anyway. 
>> Did manage to create this rule tho.  This look reasonable?  I'm thinking
>> it should be named something else tho.  It could clash with the usual
>> name. 
>>
>> # PCI device 0x11ab:0x4363 (Intel e1000e)
>> #SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", DRIVERS=="?*",
>> ATTR{address}=="68:05:ca:42:17:39",ATTR{dev_id}=="0x0", ATTR{type}=="1",
>> KERNEL=="eth*", NAME="enp3s0"
> Did my examples (with the MAC addresses and device names changed) not
> work?
>
>> I got the ATTR address from ifconfig.  I'm not real sure on the other
>> ATTR variables tho.
> I don't use the other other ATTRs, ACTION, DRIVERS, or KERNEL and I
> don't know why you added them, so I can't comment.
>
> --
> Grant

Well, I found one with google and sort of went by that.  Now that I read
yours again, yours makes more sense, from what little I know.  o_O

Is ATTR address the same as Mac address?  If so, why not have the same
names for all tools????  How's this look?

SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="68:05:ca:42:17:39", NAME="dale0"


I gave it a different name this time.  I'm assuming I'd need to reboot to test this or is restarting udev enough?? 

Dang it's humid outside.  I feel like I need diving gear out there so I can breathe.  O_O 

Dale 

:-)  :-)  

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: PCIe version 2, 3 etc and how to know which a card is.

[Michael]

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On Tuesday, 28 May 2024 19:02:09 BST Dale wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
> > On 2024-05-28, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Grant Edwards wrote:
> >>> On 2024-05-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Here's my udev rules file that defines my network interface names
> >>>>> for the machine I'm on at the moment:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> ------------------/etc/udev/rules.d/70-my-persistent-net.rules--------
> >>>>> --------------- SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add",
> >>>>> ATTR{address}=="2c:f0:5d:6f:10:af", NAME="net0" SUBSYSTEM=="net",
> >>>>> ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="00:1b:21:b1:d1:e9", NAME="net1"
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> ---------------->> 
> >> Got a little busy with my garden.  Found my first zucchini yesterday. 
> >> Ready to pick in a few days.  Found some small tomatoes too.  Anyway. 
> >> Did manage to create this rule tho.  This look reasonable?  I'm thinking
> >> it should be named something else tho.  It could clash with the usual
> >> name. 
> >> 
> >> # PCI device 0x11ab:0x4363 (Intel e1000e)
> >> #SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", DRIVERS=="?*",
> >> ATTR{address}=="68:05:ca:42:17:39",ATTR{dev_id}=="0x0", ATTR{type}=="1",
> >> KERNEL=="eth*", NAME="enp3s0"
> > 
> > Did my examples (with the MAC addresses and device names changed) not
> > work?
> > 
> >> I got the ATTR address from ifconfig.  I'm not real sure on the other
> >> ATTR variables tho.
> > 
> > I don't use the other other ATTRs, ACTION, DRIVERS, or KERNEL and I
> > don't know why you added them, so I can't comment.
> > 
> > --
> > Grant
> 
> Well, I found one with google and sort of went by that.  Now that I read
> yours again, yours makes more sense, from what little I know.  o_O
> 
> Is ATTR address the same as Mac address?  If so, why not have the same
> names for all tools????  How's this look?

An ATTR can be any of the identifying attributes of your particular NIC.  Take 
a look in /sys/class/net/ to find out the current name of the device, e.g. 
enp4s0, then look at its attributes:

udevadm info -a /sys/class/net/enp4s0/

You can use any attributes which *uniquely* identify the NIC, e.g. vendor/
device ID, MAC address, etc. to avoid misidentification.


> SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", ATTR{address}=="68:05:ca:42:17:39",
> NAME="dale0"
> 
> 
> I gave it a different name this time.  I'm assuming I'd need to reboot to
> test this or is restarting udev enough??

If it is a remote PC and you're using netifrc, you'll need to create a new 
symlink, e.g.:

ln -s /etc/init.d/net.lo /etc/init.d/net.dale0

You probably know you can stop the predictable device naming by adding to your 
kernel command line:

net.ifnames=0

If you only have one wired NIC, then it will pop up as eth0.

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