[gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[William Kenworthy]

Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit of 
a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Andrew Lowe]

On 20/12/21 11:17 am, William Kenworthy wrote:
> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit of 
> a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)
> 
> BillK
> 
> 
> 

How easy should it be? Won't ffmpeg allow you to do this type of thing 
but you need to do a bit of work to get what you need - no nice GUI?

	Andrew

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[William Kenworthy]

On 20/12/21 13:40, Andrew Lowe wrote:
> On 20/12/21 11:17 am, William Kenworthy wrote:
>> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit 
>> of a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)
>>
>> BillK
>>
>>
>>
>
> How easy should it be? Won't ffmpeg allow you to do this type of thing 
> but you need to do a bit of work to get what you need - no nice GUI?
>
>     Andrew
>
I am using ffmeg now to reduce the video size.  Its a Christmas message 
taken on a lumix camera that needs to be sent a few thousand km over 
what may be a flakey mobile link.  I just wanted something I can play a 
video, click on a point and delete everything before that.  Same at the 
end.  Looking at kdelive its a stupidly complex program that has a steep 
learning curve to do the above.

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Wols Lists]

On 20/12/2021 06:11, William Kenworthy wrote:
> 
> On 20/12/21 13:40, Andrew Lowe wrote:
>> On 20/12/21 11:17 am, William Kenworthy wrote:
>>> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit 
>>> of a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)
>>>
>>> BillK
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> How easy should it be? Won't ffmpeg allow you to do this type of thing 
>> but you need to do a bit of work to get what you need - no nice GUI?
>>
>>     Andrew
>>
> I am using ffmeg now to reduce the video size.  Its a Christmas message 
> taken on a lumix camera that needs to be sent a few thousand km over 
> what may be a flakey mobile link.  I just wanted something I can play a 
> video, click on a point and delete everything before that.  Same at the 
> end.  Looking at kdelive its a stupidly complex program that has a steep 
> learning curve to do the above.
> 
I'm looking for the same. On my PVR I just create two chapter marks, and 
delete the section between the chapter marks.

With pretty much every bit of linux software I've found, I have to 
import my source into a project, make a meal of deleting the sections I 
don't want, and then I can't just "save a file", I have to tell the 
program loads of crap that I don't have a clue about, I just want my new 
file to be EXACTLY THE SAME as the original, just missing the bits I've 
deleted.

Most software works like that, why doesn't video editing software?

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[eric]

On 12/20/21 12:55 AM, Wols Lists wrote:
> On 20/12/2021 06:11, William Kenworthy wrote:
>>
>> On 20/12/21 13:40, Andrew Lowe wrote:
>>> On 20/12/21 11:17 am, William Kenworthy wrote:
>>>> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit 
>>>> of a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the 
>>>> middle?)
>>>>
>>>> BillK
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> How easy should it be? Won't ffmpeg allow you to do this type of 
>>> thing but you need to do a bit of work to get what you need - no nice 
>>> GUI?
>>>
>>>     Andrew
>>>
>> I am using ffmeg now to reduce the video size.  Its a Christmas 
>> message taken on a lumix camera that needs to be sent a few thousand 
>> km over what may be a flakey mobile link.  I just wanted something I 
>> can play a video, click on a point and delete everything before that.  
>> Same at the end.  Looking at kdelive its a stupidly complex program 
>> that has a steep learning curve to do the above.
>>
> I'm looking for the same. On my PVR I just create two chapter marks, and 
> delete the section between the chapter marks.
> 
> With pretty much every bit of linux software I've found, I have to 
> import my source into a project, make a meal of deleting the sections I 
> don't want, and then I can't just "save a file", I have to tell the 
> program loads of crap that I don't have a clue about, I just want my new 
> file to be EXACTLY THE SAME as the original, just missing the bits I've 
> deleted.
> 
> Most software works like that, why doesn't video editing software?
> 
> Cheers,
> Wol
> 

I have not tried this myself but has anyone tried "easycrop". It is a 
script that uses mpv to do the hard work.

https://github.com/aidanholm/mpv-easycrop

Regards,

Eric

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 07:55:15 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:

> With pretty much every bit of linux software I've found, I have to 
> import my source into a project, make a meal of deleting the sections I 
> don't want, and then I can't just "save a file", I have to tell the 
> program loads of crap that I don't have a clue about, I just want my
> new file to be EXACTLY THE SAME as the original, just missing the bits
> I've deleted.

Avidemux works just like that, select the bits you don't want, delete
them, save using the copy codec, which does no transcoding.

Or you can use a different codec/bitrate/whatever if you also want to
reduce the size.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Power corrupts - absolute power is even more fun.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[eric]

On 12/20/21 1:13 AM, eric wrote:
> On 12/20/21 12:55 AM, Wols Lists wrote:
>> On 20/12/2021 06:11, William Kenworthy wrote:
>>>
>>> On 20/12/21 13:40, Andrew Lowe wrote:
>>>> On 20/12/21 11:17 am, William Kenworthy wrote:
>>>>> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick 
>>>>> edit of a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of 
>>>>> the middle?)
>>>>>
>>>>> BillK
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How easy should it be? Won't ffmpeg allow you to do this type of 
>>>> thing but you need to do a bit of work to get what you need - no 
>>>> nice GUI?
>>>>
>>>>     Andrew
>>>>
>>> I am using ffmeg now to reduce the video size.  Its a Christmas 
>>> message taken on a lumix camera that needs to be sent a few thousand 
>>> km over what may be a flakey mobile link.  I just wanted something I 
>>> can play a video, click on a point and delete everything before that. 
>>> Same at the end.  Looking at kdelive its a stupidly complex program 
>>> that has a steep learning curve to do the above.
>>>
>> I'm looking for the same. On my PVR I just create two chapter marks, 
>> and delete the section between the chapter marks.
>>
>> With pretty much every bit of linux software I've found, I have to 
>> import my source into a project, make a meal of deleting the sections 
>> I don't want, and then I can't just "save a file", I have to tell the 
>> program loads of crap that I don't have a clue about, I just want my 
>> new file to be EXACTLY THE SAME as the original, just missing the bits 
>> I've deleted.
>>
>> Most software works like that, why doesn't video editing software?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Wol
>>
> 
> I have not tried this myself but has anyone tried "easycrop". It is a 
> script that uses mpv to do the hard work.
> 
> https://github.com/aidanholm/mpv-easycrop
> 

I spoke to soon. This script does not do what you are looking for. It 
just allows you to select a rectangular section of the screen and crops 
the rest. It does not allow you to remove sections of the video like the 
beginning few minutes.

Regards,

Eric

[gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 20/12/2021 05:17, William Kenworthy wrote:
> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit of 
> a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)

I use LosslessCut for this:

   https://github.com/mifi/lossless-cut

It's not in Portage, but the provided AppImage download "just runs". If 
you've never used an AppImage before, it behaves just like a normal 
executable. So "chmod +x LosslessCut-linux.AppImage" and then just run it.

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Wols Lists]

On 20/12/2021 08:25, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 07:55:15 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:
> 
>> With pretty much every bit of linux software I've found, I have to
>> import my source into a project, make a meal of deleting the sections I
>> don't want, and then I can't just "save a file", I have to tell the
>> program loads of crap that I don't have a clue about, I just want my
>> new file to be EXACTLY THE SAME as the original, just missing the bits
>> I've deleted.
> 
> Avidemux works just like that, select the bits you don't want, delete
> them, save using the copy codec, which does no transcoding.
> 
> Or you can use a different codec/bitrate/whatever if you also want to
> reduce the size.
> 
> 
Ummm.

I don't know what the problem was, but I know I tried Avidemux, and it 
really didn't work for me. afair, it just got slower and slower, and was 
taking hours to save a file. Maybe a couple of days to save a 2hr video, 
that sort of thing ...

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Michael]

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On Monday, 20 December 2021 11:16:14 GMT Wols Lists wrote:
> On 20/12/2021 08:25, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 07:55:15 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:
> >> With pretty much every bit of linux software I've found, I have to
> >> import my source into a project, make a meal of deleting the sections I
> >> don't want, and then I can't just "save a file", I have to tell the
> >> program loads of crap that I don't have a clue about, I just want my
> >> new file to be EXACTLY THE SAME as the original, just missing the bits
> >> I've deleted.
> > 
> > Avidemux works just like that, select the bits you don't want, delete
> > them, save using the copy codec, which does no transcoding.
> > 
> > Or you can use a different codec/bitrate/whatever if you also want to
> > reduce the size.
> 
> Ummm.
> 
> I don't know what the problem was, but I know I tried Avidemux, and it
> really didn't work for me. afair, it just got slower and slower, and was
> taking hours to save a file. Maybe a couple of days to save a 2hr video,
> that sort of thing ...
> 
> Cheers,
> Wol

kdenlive would be the same, IF you are transcoding the streams.  If you are 
just clipping sections, but copying over the same codecs and remuxing, it will 
be much faster.

I've tried various GUIs and found I was wasting more time learning how each 
application worked, than actually doing work.  So I reverted back to using 
ffmpeg on CLI.

ffmpeg -ss 00:03:00 -i input.mp4 -codec: copy -t 00:43:00 output.mp4

The above works a treat to clip start and end on a video and is fast.  If I 
need to clip many bits along the length of the video, e.g. removing adverts 
from a TV transmission, then I clip them separately and concatenate them as 
shown here:

https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Concatenate

When I want to transcode streams I use hardware acceleration which is faster 
and cooler than burning CPU cycles, e.g.:

ffmpeg -hwaccel vaapi -vaapi_device /dev/dri/renderD128 -ss 00:04:12 -i
input.ts -vf format='nv12|vaapi,hwupload' -codec:v h264_vaapi -codec:a ac3 -t 
00:59:08 output.ts

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Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Jigme Datse]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 14:11:50 +0800
William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au> wrote:

> On 20/12/21 13:40, Andrew Lowe wrote:
> > On 20/12/21 11:17 am, William Kenworthy wrote:  
> >> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick
> >> edit of a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of
> >> the middle?)
> >>
> >> BillK
> >>
> >>
> >>  
> >
> > How easy should it be? Won't ffmpeg allow you to do this type of
> > thing but you need to do a bit of work to get what you need - no
> > nice GUI?
> >
> >     Andrew
> >  
> I am using ffmeg now to reduce the video size.  Its a Christmas
> message taken on a lumix camera that needs to be sent a few thousand
> km over what may be a flakey mobile link.  I just wanted something I
> can play a video, click on a point and delete everything before that.
>  Same at the end.  Looking at kdelive its a stupidly complex program
> that has a steep learning curve to do the above.
> 
> BillK
> 
> 
> 

The one thing if you are wanting to reduce video size, after getting
something that is the "just the right bits" video, send it as a HEVC
encoded video.  Generally it's h.264 once you have a "web" video, but I
have found I can reduce to 1/20 to 1/50 often taking that to HEVC for a
1080p video.  And...  You may not need/want it at that high a
resolution.

[gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Grant Edwards]

On 2021-12-20, William Kenworthy <billk@iinet.net.au> wrote:

> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit of 
> a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)

I do stuff like that using a shell script to invoke the MLT "melt"
command line video editor.

https://www.mltframework.org/docs/melt/

https://www.linux-magazine.com/Issues/2018/206/Command-Line-Melt

It takes some trial-and-error to get the hang of some of the
options...

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Spackman, Chris]

On 2021/12/20 at 11:17am, William Kenworthy wrote:
> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit of 
> a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)

I've not seen anyone mention OpenShot. It is in portage, but masked for
some reason.

As someone else mentioned, you do have to create a project and then
export. Really, though, the "create project, make export choices" is
only like an extra minute or two of your time. I usually don't even save
the project for just some simple trimming.

Alternatively, there are sites that do video editing. I like veed.io
just because it can add and then translate subtitles (which I need for
my job), but I'm sure there are many others.

-- 
Chris Spackman (he / him)                           chris@osugisakae.com

ESOL Coordinator 		            The Graham Family of Schools
ESL Educator                            Columbus State Community College
Japan Exchange and Teaching Program           Wajima, Ishikawa 1995-1998
Linux user since 1998				      Linux User #137532

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 11:07:39 -0500, Spackman, Chris wrote:

> > Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit
> > of a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the
> > middle?)  
> 
> I've not seen anyone mention OpenShot. It is in portage, but masked for
> some reason.

I considered mentioning it, but its a bit much for what the OP needed,
Avidemux is much simpler and faster.

I have used openshot for creating a video from multiple sources and found
it good for that. I had to add "media-video/openshot **" to
package.accept_keywords.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten per cent of its capacity
... the rest is overhead for the operating system.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Wols Lists]

On 21/12/2021 16:07, Spackman, Chris wrote:
> On 2021/12/20 at 11:17am, William Kenworthy wrote:
>> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit of
>> a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)
> I've not seen anyone mention OpenShot. It is in portage, but masked for
> some reason.
> 
> As someone else mentioned, you do have to create a project and then
> export. Really, though, the "create project, make export choices" is
> only like an extra minute or two of your time. I usually don't even save
> the project for just some simple trimming.


It may be a minute or two of YOUR time.

For someone who doesn't "DO" video editing, it can easily turn into 
hours of debugging trying to work out what does (or doesn't) work.

Been there done that!

Sorry, but you can't assume we're all video whizzes like you ... :-) 
That's why we want something dummy-proof!

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Spackman, Chris]

On 2021/12/21 at 05:13pm, Wols Lists wrote:
> On 21/12/2021 16:07, Spackman, Chris wrote:
> > On 2021/12/20 at 11:17am, William Kenworthy wrote:
> >> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit of
> >> a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)

> > I've not seen anyone mention OpenShot. It is in portage, but masked for
> > some reason.

> > As someone else mentioned, you do have to create a project and then
> > export. Really, though, the "create project, make export choices" is
> > only like an extra minute or two of your time. I usually don't even save
> > the project for just some simple trimming.
 
> It may be a minute or two of YOUR time.
> 
> For someone who doesn't "DO" video editing, it can easily turn into 
> hours of debugging trying to work out what does (or doesn't) work.
> 
> Sorry, but you can't assume we're all video whizzes like you ... :-) 
> That's why we want something dummy-proof!

Wow, sorry, didn't realize this was such a sore issue. Especially
considering we've already discussed several command line programs in
this thread. 

To export:

1. press the red circular "export video" button (or go to File =>
   Export Project => Export Video);

2a. [optional] change the name of the video in the export window that
    pops up;

2b. press the "export video" button at the bottom of the window. Here,
    for me, the defaults work fine.

I did it three times in less than a minute, double checking the accuracy
for this post. So, not a huge inconvenience.

Of course, if the defaults do NOT work for you, then you do not want
something "dead easy", you want something that will read your mind and
do what you want, somehow, automagically.

-- 
Chris Spackman (he / him)                           chris@osugisakae.com

ESL Coordinator 		            The Graham Family of Schools
ESL Educator                            Columbus State Community College
Japan Exchange and Teaching Program           Wajima, Ishikawa 1995-1998
Linux user since 1998				      Linux User #137532

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Dale]

Spackman, Chris wrote:
> On 2021/12/21 at 05:13pm, Wols Lists wrote:
>> On 21/12/2021 16:07, Spackman, Chris wrote:
>>> On 2021/12/20 at 11:17am, William Kenworthy wrote:
>>>> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit of
>>>> a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)
>>> I've not seen anyone mention OpenShot. It is in portage, but masked for
>>> some reason.
>>> As someone else mentioned, you do have to create a project and then
>>> export. Really, though, the "create project, make export choices" is
>>> only like an extra minute or two of your time. I usually don't even save
>>> the project for just some simple trimming.
>  
>> It may be a minute or two of YOUR time.
>>
>> For someone who doesn't "DO" video editing, it can easily turn into 
>> hours of debugging trying to work out what does (or doesn't) work.
>>
>> Sorry, but you can't assume we're all video whizzes like you ... :-) 
>> That's why we want something dummy-proof!
> Wow, sorry, didn't realize this was such a sore issue. Especially
> considering we've already discussed several command line programs in
> this thread. 
>
> To export:
>
> 1. press the red circular "export video" button (or go to File =>
>    Export Project => Export Video);
>
> 2a. [optional] change the name of the video in the export window that
>     pops up;
>
> 2b. press the "export video" button at the bottom of the window. Here,
>     for me, the defaults work fine.
>
> I did it three times in less than a minute, double checking the accuracy
> for this post. So, not a huge inconvenience.
>
> Of course, if the defaults do NOT work for you, then you do not want
> something "dead easy", you want something that will read your mind and
> do what you want, somehow, automagically.
>


As someone who has experimented with video editing software, I can
understand Wols on this.  What some of us needs is something similar to
'video editing for dummys' except we need the software not the book.  At
one time, I wanted to remove like 20 or 30 seconds on the beginning and
about the same on the end of a few videos.  Hours later, still couldn't
figure it out.  Heaven forbid I wanted to remove something in the middle
as well or add a second or so of black screen.  O_O 

This coming from someone who was able to figure out Kicad and get
circuit boards made.  Just saying.  LOL 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Wols Lists]

On 21/12/2021 18:49, Spackman, Chris wrote:
> Wow, sorry, didn't realize this was such a sore issue. Especially
> considering we've already discussed several command line programs in
> this thread.
> 
> To export:
> 
> 1. press the red circular "export video" button (or go to File =>
>     Export Project => Export Video);
> 
> 2a. [optional] change the name of the video in the export window that
>      pops up;
> 
> 2b. press the "export video" button at the bottom of the window. Here,
>      for me, the defaults work fine.

The problem is 2b. For me, it's an extremely simple case of "I gave you 
a dot ts file, I want a dot ts file back".

The act of importing the ts file into the project seems to throw that 
information away. I know a .ts is some sort of a container, with streams 
and whatnot, but I don't have a clue what's in it. Why should I?

All I know is I want to end up with EXACTLY the same sort of file I 
started with, and this seems exactly what most video editors don't have 
a clue how to do!

(Like a word .docx - I don't give a monkeys what's inside it, I don't 
need to, word takes care of all that. Why can't any half-decent video 
editor do the same?)

And yes, I have tried. You're hearing the screams of frustration from 
countless failed attempts.

Cheers,
Wol

[gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Grant Edwards]

On 2021-12-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> As someone who has experimented with video editing software, I can
> understand Wols on this.  What some of us needs is something similar to
> 'video editing for dummys' except we need the software not the book.  At
> one time, I wanted to remove like 20 or 30 seconds on the beginning and
> about the same on the end of a few videos.  Hours later, still couldn't
> figure it out.  Heaven forbid I wanted to remove something in the middle
> as well or add a second or so of black screen.

I've had pretty much the same experience with all of the GUI video
editing software I've tried:

 0. It takes at a day just to get one to build.
 
 1. The GUI is always completely baffling, and there doesn't seem to
    be any commonality from one package to the next.

 2. There's little or no documentation available other than lists of
    commands/features with descriptions that assume you already know
    how the program works. When you need to know how to accomplish a
    task, there's no help. It is always assumed you already know what
    command/feature to use.

 3. The "project" structure and paradigm always seems to be WAY too
    complex for what I want to do and does nothing for me other than
    get in the way.

 4. About 30% of the features/commands don't work at all, another 30%
    don't work they way the documentation says they do, and the rest
    have been renamed and moved to a different menu/panel/mode since
    the documentation was written.

 5. All of the ones I've ever tried crashed frequently. They crash
    when adding a source, when adding or changing an edit,
    transitions, or effect. They crash when exporting/rendering.

Melt is the only one I've ever been able to actually accomplish
something useful with. The really nice thing is that you can write a
bash (or other) program to automate stuff. If all you want to do is
concatenate a directory full of video clips with some intro, outro,
and transitions, you can write a script that does that and then run it
on as many different directories or lists of files as you want.

You don't have to set up a new project and start from scratch every time.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-12-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> As someone who has experimented with video editing software, I can
>> understand Wols on this.  What some of us needs is something similar to
>> 'video editing for dummys' except we need the software not the book.  At
>> one time, I wanted to remove like 20 or 30 seconds on the beginning and
>> about the same on the end of a few videos.  Hours later, still couldn't
>> figure it out.  Heaven forbid I wanted to remove something in the middle
>> as well or add a second or so of black screen.
> I've had pretty much the same experience with all of the GUI video
> editing software I've tried:
>
>  0. It takes at a day just to get one to build.
>  
>  1. The GUI is always completely baffling, and there doesn't seem to
>     be any commonality from one package to the next.
>
>  2. There's little or no documentation available other than lists of
>     commands/features with descriptions that assume you already know
>     how the program works. When you need to know how to accomplish a
>     task, there's no help. It is always assumed you already know what
>     command/feature to use.
>
>  3. The "project" structure and paradigm always seems to be WAY too
>     complex for what I want to do and does nothing for me other than
>     get in the way.
>
>  4. About 30% of the features/commands don't work at all, another 30%
>     don't work they way the documentation says they do, and the rest
>     have been renamed and moved to a different menu/panel/mode since
>     the documentation was written.
>
>  5. All of the ones I've ever tried crashed frequently. They crash
>     when adding a source, when adding or changing an edit,
>     transitions, or effect. They crash when exporting/rendering.
>
> Melt is the only one I've ever been able to actually accomplish
> something useful with. The really nice thing is that you can write a
> bash (or other) program to automate stuff. If all you want to do is
> concatenate a directory full of video clips with some intro, outro,
> and transitions, you can write a script that does that and then run it
> on as many different directories or lists of files as you want.
>
> You don't have to set up a new project and start from scratch every time.
>

I never had Kdenlive to crash.  I just couldn't figure out how to make
it work.  As you say, most docs are out of date or for old versions. 
I've seen that with Kicad too.  I kind of dread upgrading to Kicad 6.  I
actually masked it here until the bugs get worked out and the docs catch
up. 

Maybe one day either the docs will catch up or they will make it easy to
figure out.  Maybe.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Wols Lists]

On 21/12/2021 19:16, Dale wrote:
> Spackman, Chris wrote:
>> On 2021/12/21 at 05:13pm, Wols Lists wrote:
>>> On 21/12/2021 16:07, Spackman, Chris wrote:
>>>> On 2021/12/20 at 11:17am, William Kenworthy wrote:
>>>>> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick edit of
>>>>> a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of the middle?)
>>>> I've not seen anyone mention OpenShot. It is in portage, but masked for
>>>> some reason.
>>>> As someone else mentioned, you do have to create a project and then
>>>> export. Really, though, the "create project, make export choices" is
>>>> only like an extra minute or two of your time. I usually don't even save
>>>> the project for just some simple trimming.
>>   
>>> It may be a minute or two of YOUR time.
>>>
>>> For someone who doesn't "DO" video editing, it can easily turn into
>>> hours of debugging trying to work out what does (or doesn't) work.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but you can't assume we're all video whizzes like you ... :-)
>>> That's why we want something dummy-proof!
>> Wow, sorry, didn't realize this was such a sore issue. Especially
>> considering we've already discussed several command line programs in
>> this thread.
>>
>> To export:
>>
>> 1. press the red circular "export video" button (or go to File =>
>>     Export Project => Export Video);
>>
>> 2a. [optional] change the name of the video in the export window that
>>      pops up;
>>
>> 2b. press the "export video" button at the bottom of the window. Here,
>>      for me, the defaults work fine.
>>
>> I did it three times in less than a minute, double checking the accuracy
>> for this post. So, not a huge inconvenience.
>>
>> Of course, if the defaults do NOT work for you, then you do not want
>> something "dead easy", you want something that will read your mind and
>> do what you want, somehow, automagically.
>>
> 
> 
> As someone who has experimented with video editing software, I can
> understand Wols on this.  What some of us needs is something similar to
> 'video editing for dummys' except we need the software not the book.  At
> one time, I wanted to remove like 20 or 30 seconds on the beginning and
> about the same on the end of a few videos.  Hours later, still couldn't
> figure it out.  Heaven forbid I wanted to remove something in the middle
> as well or add a second or so of black screen.  O_O
> 
> This coming from someone who was able to figure out Kicad and get
> circuit boards made.  Just saying.  LOL
> 
Yup. This coming from someone who is quite happy with the command line 
because when he started THAT'S ALL THERE WAS. My work experience 
pre-dates the IBM PC - you know the one - the one with an 8088 inside...

Oh - and as for using the command line, it's all very well until you try 
and figure out where to tell the command line to cut the video file - I 
really don't want to have to run the command line hundreds of times, 
checking the output every time, and throwing away the ones that cut in 
the wrong place. Oh, and if I use some video editing software to find 
the exact millisecond I want to cut, it STILL cuts it in completely the 
wrong place ...

Cheers,
Wol

RE: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Laurence Perkins]

>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> 
>>Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2021 2:03 PM
>>To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
>>Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware
>>
>>On 21/12/2021 19:16, Dale wrote:
>>> Spackman, Chris wrote:
>>>> On 2021/12/21 at 05:13pm, Wols Lists wrote:
>>>>> On 21/12/2021 16:07, Spackman, Chris wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021/12/20 at 11:17am, William Kenworthy wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi, what is a usable piece of software in portage to do a quick 
>>>>>>> edit of a movie? (cut start/end and maybe splice a bit in/out of 
>>>>>>> the middle?)
>>>>>> I've not seen anyone mention OpenShot. It is in portage, but masked 
>>>>>> for some reason.
>>>>>> As someone else mentioned, you do have to create a project and then 
>>>>>> export. Really, though, the "create project, make export choices" 
>>>>>> is only like an extra minute or two of your time. I usually don't 
>>>>>> even save the project for just some simple trimming.
>>>>   
>>>>> It may be a minute or two of YOUR time.
>>>>>
>>>>> For someone who doesn't "DO" video editing, it can easily turn into 
>>>>> hours of debugging trying to work out what does (or doesn't) work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, but you can't assume we're all video whizzes like you ... :-) 
>>>>> That's why we want something dummy-proof!
>>>> Wow, sorry, didn't realize this was such a sore issue. Especially 
>>>> considering we've already discussed several command line programs in 
>>>> this thread.
>>>>
>>>> To export:
>>>>
>>>> 1. press the red circular "export video" button (or go to File =>
>>>>     Export Project => Export Video);
>>>>
>>>> 2a. [optional] change the name of the video in the export window that
>>>>      pops up;
>>>>
>>>> 2b. press the "export video" button at the bottom of the window. Here,
>>>>      for me, the defaults work fine.
>>>>
>>>> I did it three times in less than a minute, double checking the 
>>>> accuracy for this post. So, not a huge inconvenience.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, if the defaults do NOT work for you, then you do not want 
>>>> something "dead easy", you want something that will read your mind 
>>>> and do what you want, somehow, automagically.
>>>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As someone who has experimented with video editing software, I can 
>>> understand Wols on this.  What some of us needs is something similar 
>>> to 'video editing for dummys' except we need the software not the 
>>> book.  At one time, I wanted to remove like 20 or 30 seconds on the 
>>> beginning and about the same on the end of a few videos.  Hours later, 
>>> still couldn't figure it out.  Heaven forbid I wanted to remove 
>>> something in the middle as well or add a second or so of black screen.  
>>> O_O
>>> 
>>> This coming from someone who was able to figure out Kicad and get 
>>> circuit boards made.  Just saying.  LOL
>>> 
>>Yup. This coming from someone who is quite happy with the command line because when he started THAT'S ALL THERE WAS. My work experience pre-dates the IBM PC - you know the one - the one with an 8088 inside...
>>
>>Oh - and as for using the command line, it's all very well until you try and figure out where to tell the command line to cut the video file - I really don't want to have to run the command line hundreds of times, checking the output every time, and throwing away the ones that cut in the wrong place. Oh, and if I use some video editing software to find the exact millisecond I want to cut, it STILL cuts it in completely the wrong place ...
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Wol
>>
>>

Note that some editing software can only cut at the iframes, and it's also fairly common to only be able to cut at the iframes unless it's re-encoding the data.  That can be a major source of frustration.

LMP

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[William Kenworthy]

On 22/12/21 04:59, Dale wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2021-12-21, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> As someone who has experimented with video editing software, I can
>>> understand Wols on this.  What some of us needs is something similar to
>>> 'video editing for dummys' except we need the software not the book.  At
>>> one time, I wanted to remove like 20 or 30 seconds on the beginning and
>>> about the same on the end of a few videos.  Hours later, still couldn't
>>> figure it out.  Heaven forbid I wanted to remove something in the middle
>>> as well or add a second or so of black screen.
>> I've had pretty much the same experience with all of the GUI video
>> editing software I've tried:
>>
>>   0. It takes at a day just to get one to build.
>>   
>>   1. The GUI is always completely baffling, and there doesn't seem to
>>      be any commonality from one package to the next.
>>
>>   2. There's little or no documentation available other than lists of
>>      commands/features with descriptions that assume you already know
>>      how the program works. When you need to know how to accomplish a
>>      task, there's no help. It is always assumed you already know what
>>      command/feature to use.
>>
>>   3. The "project" structure and paradigm always seems to be WAY too
>>      complex for what I want to do and does nothing for me other than
>>      get in the way.
>>
>>   4. About 30% of the features/commands don't work at all, another 30%
>>      don't work they way the documentation says they do, and the rest
>>      have been renamed and moved to a different menu/panel/mode since
>>      the documentation was written.
>>
>>   5. All of the ones I've ever tried crashed frequently. They crash
>>      when adding a source, when adding or changing an edit,
>>      transitions, or effect. They crash when exporting/rendering.
>>
>> Melt is the only one I've ever been able to actually accomplish
>> something useful with. The really nice thing is that you can write a
>> bash (or other) program to automate stuff. If all you want to do is
>> concatenate a directory full of video clips with some intro, outro,
>> and transitions, you can write a script that does that and then run it
>> on as many different directories or lists of files as you want.
>>
>> You don't have to set up a new project and start from scratch every time.
>>
> I never had Kdenlive to crash.  I just couldn't figure out how to make
> it work.  As you say, most docs are out of date or for old versions.
> I've seen that with Kicad too.  I kind of dread upgrading to Kicad 6.  I
> actually masked it here until the bugs get worked out and the docs catch
> up.
>
> Maybe one day either the docs will catch up or they will make it easy to
> figure out.  Maybe.  ;-)
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>

Gotta reply here - kdelive crashes at the drop of a hat with the files I 
am using - very frustrating.  But the interface is such a crap shoot I 
have given up on it - I'll try the other suggestions over the next few 
days so I am ready next time..

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Michael]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1358 bytes --]

On Tuesday, 21 December 2021 22:32:14 GMT Laurence Perkins wrote:
> >>
> >>From: Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> 

> >>Oh - and as for using the command line, it's all very well until you try
> >>and figure out where to tell the command line to cut the video file - I
> >>really don't want to have to run the command line hundreds of times,
> >>checking the output every time, and throwing away the ones that cut in
> >>the wrong place. Oh, and if I use some video editing software to find the
> >>exact millisecond I want to cut, it STILL cuts it in completely the wrong
> >>place ...
 
> >>Cheers,
> >>Wol
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
> Note that some editing software can only cut at the iframes, and it's also
> fairly common to only be able to cut at the iframes unless it's re-encoding
> the data.  That can be a major source of frustration.
 
> LMP

Yes, I've noticed this with kdenlive and from what I recall from years ago, 
avidemux too.  I can't recall if there was some GUI option to change this - I 
never found it.

I use mpv to identify the exact timestamp where I want to make a cut and then 
tell ffmpeg to do so.  Whether I transcode any/all streams, or remux to a 
different container at the same time, ffmpeg just works, but the process takes 
more than point 'n click.  I'll give openshot a ... shot one day to see if it 
is more user friendly.

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[gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Grant Edwards]

On 2021-12-21, Laurence Perkins <lperkins@openeye.net> wrote:

> Note that some editing software can only cut at the iframes, and
> it's also fairly common to only be able to cut at the iframes unless
> it's re-encoding the data.

AFAIUI, it's not even theoretically possible to cut anyplace other
than the I-frames without decoding and reencoding at least the portion
of the stream where the cut is being made. While it might be possible
to copy the rest of the stream, I don't know of any editors that will
do that.

--
Grant

[gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Grant Edwards]

On 2021-12-21, Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:

> Oh - and as for using the command line, it's all very well until you
> try and figure out where to tell the command line to cut the video
> file - I really don't want to have to run the command line hundreds
> of times, checking the output every time, and throwing away the ones
> that cut in the wrong place.

You don't need to figure out the edit points by trail-and-error using
the command line.  There are plenty of bullet-proof video players that
will allow you to easily identify the exact point in a stream.

> Oh, and if I use some video editing software to find the exact
> millisecond I want to cut, it STILL cuts it in completely the wrong
> place ...

If you're trying to do cuts with a muxer (without re-encoding), you
can only cut at certain pre-defined points in the stream, and the
software will have to pick one of the points either side of the
position you specified.

If you want to cut at exact frames, you'll have to re-encode.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Wol]

On 22/12/2021 16:17, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-12-21, Laurence Perkins <lperkins@openeye.net> wrote:
> 
>> Note that some editing software can only cut at the iframes, and
>> it's also fairly common to only be able to cut at the iframes unless
>> it's re-encoding the data.
> 
> AFAIUI, it's not even theoretically possible to cut anyplace other
> than the I-frames without decoding and reencoding at least the portion
> of the stream where the cut is being made. While it might be possible
> to copy the rest of the stream, I don't know of any editors that will
> do that.
> 
What is an i-frame? As I understood it, typically when you had a scene 
change, a frame was written in full, then subsequent frames were stored 
as diffs. Is that what an i-frame is?

In which case, surely it can't be that tricky to delete a block without 
having to decode/encode more than a few frames?

And how come PVRs do it so easily?

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Daniel Pielmeier]

Wol schrieb am 22.12.21 um 19:45:
> What is an i-frame? As I understood it, typically when you had a scene 
> change, a frame was written in full, then subsequent frames were stored 
> as diffs. Is that what an i-frame is?

Wikipedia [1] to the help.

> In which case, surely it can't be that tricky to delete a block without 
> having to decode/encode more than a few frames?

Encoding only the affected region is tricky because you need to use the 
same codec parameters (encoding profile, resolution, colour space, FPS, 
bit depth, bitrate, and possibly more parameters which are also codec 
dependent) like the rest of the unaffected portion of the video to be 
able to concatenate it again afterwards with the rest of the video. Also 
it is tricky to keep video an audio in sync when having a lot of cut 
points. Probably there are other issues depending on the required 
codecs. So making it work for every codec even only for the popular ones 
might be a lot of work.

TTCut can do "smart cutting" by encoding only the affected GOP [2]. 
However it only works for Mpeg2 Video and Mpeg2 Audio or Dolby AC-3 
Audio. I have not tested it but VidCutter [3] should also be capable of 
doing so and as I see there is no restriction on the codecs. They are 
the only ones I am aware of supporting this feature and they are 
packaged for Gentoo.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_compression_picture_types
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_pictures
[3] https://github.com/ozmartian/vidcutter

-- 
Regards
Daniel

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Wols Lists]

On 22/12/2021 19:27, Daniel Pielmeier wrote:
> 
> TTCut can do "smart cutting" by encoding only the affected GOP [2]. 
> However it only works for Mpeg2 Video and Mpeg2 Audio or Dolby AC-3 
> Audio. I have not tested it but VidCutter [3] should also be capable of 
> doing so and as I see there is no restriction on the codecs. They are 
> the only ones I am aware of supporting this feature and they are 
> packaged for Gentoo.

Now emerging! I shall have to play with it, but it looks just what the 
doctor ordered. I *believe* a ts contains an mpeg2 ... let's hope!

Cheers,
Wol

RE: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Laurence Perkins]

>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> 
>Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2021 8:18 AM
>To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
>Subject: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware
>
>On 2021-12-21, Laurence Perkins <lperkins@openeye.net> wrote:
>
>> Note that some editing software can only cut at the iframes, and it's 
>> also fairly common to only be able to cut at the iframes unless it's 
>> re-encoding the data.
>
>AFAIUI, it's not even theoretically possible to cut anyplace other than the I-frames without decoding and reencoding at least the portion of the stream where the cut is being made. While it might be possible to copy the rest of the stream, I don't know of any editors that will do that.
>
>--
>Grant
>
>

Oh, you can do it, it'll just mess up every frame between where you cut it and the next iframe so sensible software that doesn't want to reencode it refuses to do so.
But the playback decoders won't generally choke on it or anything.

It's basically the same as a full+incremental backup scheme, only with video frames.  Chop some diffs out of the middle and the stuff between there and the next full goes... strange.

But what I meant was that cutting to the whole GOP is ALL that some software can do and it won't even try to reencode.

LMP

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 10:37:32 +0000, Michael wrote:

> > Note that some editing software can only cut at the iframes, and it's
> > also fairly common to only be able to cut at the iframes unless it's
> > re-encoding the data.  That can be a major source of frustration.  
>  
> > LMP  
> 
> Yes, I've noticed this with kdenlive and from what I recall from years
> ago, avidemux too.  I can't recall if there was some GUI option to
> change this - I never found it.

Avidemux can cut anywhere, but then you have to reencode the portions
around the cuts, but not the whole thing.Avidemux is a bit limited and
old fashioned looking, but the one thing it is particularly good at is
quickly removing portions of videos. For anything more adventurous, I'd
probably use Openshot.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Eye of newt, toe of frog, regular Coke and fries to go, please.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 20:39:59 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:

> Now emerging! I shall have to play with it, but it looks just what the 
> doctor ordered. I *believe* a ts contains an mpeg2 ... let's hope!

AFAIR recall a .ts (Transport Stream) file is intended for broadcast and
so contains more redundant information to allow for unreliable
transmission - MythTV records .ts files. Converting for MPEG without
reencoding gives the same video but in a smaller file.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

What do you get if you cross an agnostic, an insomniac and adyslexic?
Someone who lies awake at night wondering if there really is a dog.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Wols Lists]

On 23/12/2021 07:58, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 20:39:59 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:
> 
>> Now emerging! I shall have to play with it, but it looks just what the
>> doctor ordered. I *believe* a ts contains an mpeg2 ... let's hope!
> 
> AFAIR recall a .ts (Transport Stream) file is intended for broadcast and
> so contains more redundant information to allow for unreliable
> transmission - MythTV records .ts files. Converting for MPEG without
> reencoding gives the same video but in a smaller file.
> 
Quite likely. But if I want to replay it on the same tv (and don't want 
to spend hours recoding), it seems like the best solution - that works - 
is to leave it as it is.

Video is enough of a maze of twisty little passages as it is, i don't 
want to get lost again ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Movie editing softeware

[Spackman, Chris]

On 2021/12/21 at 07:17pm, Wols Lists wrote:
> On 21/12/2021 18:49, Spackman, Chris wrote:

> > 2b. press the "export video" button at the bottom of the window. Here,
> >      for me, the defaults work fine.
> 
> The problem is 2b. For me, it's an extremely simple case of "I gave you 
> a dot ts file, I want a dot ts file back".
> 
> The act of importing the ts file into the project seems to throw that 
> information away. I know a .ts is some sort of a container, with streams 
> and whatnot, but I don't have a clue what's in it. Why should I?
> 
> All I know is I want to end up with EXACTLY the same sort of file I 
> started with, and this seems exactly what most video editors don't have 
> a clue how to do!
> 
> (Like a word .docx - I don't give a monkeys what's inside it, I don't 
> need to, word takes care of all that. Why can't any half-decent video 
> editor do the same?)
> 
> And yes, I have tried. You're hearing the screams of frustration from 
> countless failed attempts.

Video files are certainly horribly complex. I promise I am no expert at
all, but I have been fooling with them for decades, so I suppose I
probably know a lot more than I realize, and more than most people who
haven't been at it that long.

I think the problem is that the files have both a container and a
format. Matroska, if i understand correctly, is a container. It could
hold video, audio, and even subtitles, in any of several formats.

This is unlike a DOCX file, for example, which is always a zip file with
xml (and other) files in expected formats. The closest to the situation
you are seeing is if MS Office opened an ODT file (from LibreOffice) and
always saved it - without asking - as a DOCX file.

Even more out there would be if LO would accept ODT files that were
tarred and gzipped instead of just plain zipped and that also could have
html, markdown, or org formats instead of xml inside the tar.gz
file. (that would an interesting world, i think)

I hadn't realized it until you brought it up, but it is odd that so many
video programs don't have a "save in the same format as the original"
option. I'm sure ffmpeg can probably do it easily, but then we're back
to the original issues with trying to get the cutting lined up neatly.

Good luck.

-- 
Chris Spackman (he / him)                           chris@osugisakae.com

ESL Coordinator 		            The Graham Family of Schools
ESL Educator                            Columbus State Community College
Japan Exchange and Teaching Program           Wajima, Ishikawa 1995-1998
Linux user since 1998				      Linux User #137532

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Wols Lists]

On 22/12/2021 19:27, Daniel Pielmeier wrote:
> Wol schrieb am 22.12.21 um 19:45:
>> What is an i-frame? As I understood it, typically when you had a scene 
>> change, a frame was written in full, then subsequent frames were 
>> stored as diffs. Is that what an i-frame is?
> 
> Wikipedia [1] to the help.
> 
>> In which case, surely it can't be that tricky to delete a block 
>> without having to decode/encode more than a few frames?
> 
> Encoding only the affected region is tricky because you need to use the 
> same codec parameters (encoding profile, resolution, colour space, FPS, 
> bit depth, bitrate, and possibly more parameters which are also codec 
> dependent) like the rest of the unaffected portion of the video to be 
> able to concatenate it again afterwards with the rest of the video. Also 
> it is tricky to keep video an audio in sync when having a lot of cut 
> points. Probably there are other issues depending on the required 
> codecs. So making it work for every codec even only for the popular ones 
> might be a lot of work.
> 
> TTCut can do "smart cutting" by encoding only the affected GOP [2]. 
> However it only works for Mpeg2 Video and Mpeg2 Audio or Dolby AC-3 
> Audio. I have not tested it but VidCutter [3] should also be capable of 
> doing so and as I see there is no restriction on the codecs. They are 
> the only ones I am aware of supporting this feature and they are 
> packaged for Gentoo.
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_compression_picture_types
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_pictures
> [3] https://github.com/ozmartian/vidcutter
> 
Cue another bout of screaming.

TTCut doesn't recognise .ts, and when force-fed just crashes.

Vidcutter won't emerge - its dependency mpv bombs with

Checking for wayland-scanner 
   : no
You manually enabled the feature 'wayland-scanner', but the 
autodetection check failed.
  * ERROR: media-video/mpv-0.33.1-r2::gentoo failed (configure phase):
  *   configure failed

Now where would I have enabled wayland-scanner?

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Movie editing softeware

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 08:57:07 +0000, Wols Lists wrote:

> >> Now emerging! I shall have to play with it, but it looks just what
> >> the doctor ordered. I *believe* a ts contains an mpeg2 ... let's
> >> hope!  
> > 
> > AFAIR recall a .ts (Transport Stream) file is intended for broadcast
> > and so contains more redundant information to allow for unreliable
> > transmission - MythTV records .ts files. Converting for MPEG without
> > reencoding gives the same video but in a smaller file.
> >   
> Quite likely. But if I want to replay it on the same tv (and don't want 
> to spend hours recoding), it seems like the best solution - that works
> - is to leave it as it is.

I've found most TVs I've tried accept a decent variety of formats. If you
are loading a .ts and saving a .m4 without reencoding, you are only
changing the container, which is really fast. Along the way, you may drop
some of the redundant, duplicated data that is only needed for OTA
transmission.
 
> Video is enough of a maze of twisty little passages as it is, i don't 
> want to get lost again ... :-)

Indeed it is, but if it is not necessary to save as a .ts, you open up
more possibilities of finding software that fits your needs and is easy to
use.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Be regular. Eat cron flakes.

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