[gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Jude DaShiell]

missing lots of accessibility-related material.
I've installed several other versions of Linux before and got them
accessible using material found mostly on the internet for instructions.
The first one was RedHat 5.0 when that was a current distribution.
After that, slackware, debian, fedora ubuntu arch-linux coconut and jenux.
Anyone interested could do a youtube search for gentoo, and I'm pretty
sure you'll find I wasn't the only potential installer who ran into all
manner of unexpected behavior.
An A gentoo accessibility install podcast ought to have been available for
this distribution many years ago.

A feature that would be useful for menuconfig would be the ability once a
search is done to jump onto the desired search item directly (if the item
were available at all).
Maybe that's communicated by colors, I don't know.


--

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Ashley Dixon]

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On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:09:00PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> missing lots of accessibility-related material.
> I've installed several other versions of Linux before and got them
> accessible using material found mostly on the internet for instructions.
> The first one was RedHat 5.0 when that was a current distribution.
> After that, slackware, debian, fedora ubuntu arch-linux coconut and jenux.
> Anyone interested could do a youtube search for gentoo, and I'm pretty
> sure you'll find I wasn't the only potential installer who ran into all
> manner of unexpected behavior.

YouTube probably isn't the  best  source  of  information  for  technical  Linux
documentation.  Asking here on the mailing list is always good; the  appropriate
IRC channels can be helpful, too.  Gentoo does not hold your hand and provide  a
pretty GUI for every potential option and use-case, because its range of  target
consumers is far too broad.  The "all manner  of  unexpected  behaviour"  you're
encountering is just the feeling of having  to  do  some  of  the  heavy-lifting
yourself, which is certainly not a negative remark on Gentoo!

If you have a very specific and niche issue, you can also reach out directly  to
the Gentoo Accessibility  Project  in  different  forms  (#gentoo-accessibility;
accessibility@gentoo.org; gentoo-accessibility@lists.gentoo.org) [1].

> An A gentoo accessibility install podcast ought to have been available for
> this distribution many years ago.

A podcast for all accessibility use-cases in Gentoo would, once  again,  be  far
too broad and help  only  a  minority  of  potentially  interested  viewers.   A
dedicated espeak(up) page on the Gentoo wiki would be  great,  however.   I  was
rather surprised to see that one didn't exist.

> A feature that would be useful for menuconfig would be the ability once a
> search is done to jump onto the desired search item directly (if the item
> were available at all).
> Maybe that's communicated by colors, I don't know.

Currently, the closest thing menuconfig provides is detailing  the  location  of
the `CONFIG_` option, in relation to the  graphical  menus  one  must  navigate.
Sometimes it's just easier to edit your `.config` manually;  menuconfig  can  be
terribly slow and cumbersome when  you're  only  searching  the  option  titles.

[1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Accessibility

-- 

Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk

2A9A 4117
DA96 D18A
8A7B B0D2
A30E BF25
F290 A8AA


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Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 22:09:00 -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:

> A feature that would be useful for menuconfig would be the ability once
> a search is done to jump onto the desired search item directly (if the
> item were available at all).

That's already there. Options that are available have a number next to
them. Press that to jump to the option.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

<Linuxgeek> How do i find the model of my card?
<Serena[T]> your nick is misleading, seriously

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Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Dale]

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Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 22:09:00 -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>
>> A feature that would be useful for menuconfig would be the ability once
>> a search is done to jump onto the desired search item directly (if the
>> item were available at all).
> That's already there. Options that are available have a number next to
> them. Press that to jump to the option.
>
>


Wow!!!  O_O  I never noticed that.  It works too.  I did a search for
speak and saw a number next to the results and hit it, 1 in my case, and
it went right to it.  I'm not going to mention how many times I went
digging to find something in the past.  It embarrassing.  ;-) 

Now that is cool.  I just hope I remember to use it the next time.  :/

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Jude DaShiell]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020, Ashley Dixon wrote:

> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 07:30:19
> From: Ashley Dixon <ash@suugaku.co.uk>
> Reply-To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:09:00PM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > missing lots of accessibility-related material.
> > I've installed several other versions of Linux before and got them
> > accessible using material found mostly on the internet for instructions.
> > The first one was RedHat 5.0 when that was a current distribution.
> > After that, slackware, debian, fedora ubuntu arch-linux coconut and jenux.
> > Anyone interested could do a youtube search for gentoo, and I'm pretty
> > sure you'll find I wasn't the only potential installer who ran into all
> > manner of unexpected behavior.
>
> YouTube probably isn't the  best  source  of  information  for  technical  Linux
> documentation.  Asking here on the mailing list is always good; the  appropriate
> IRC channels can be helpful, too.  Gentoo does not hold your hand and provide  a
> pretty GUI for every potential option and use-case, because its range of  target
> consumers is far too broad.  The "all manner  of  unexpected  behaviour"  you're
> encountering is just the feeling of having  to  do  some  of  the  heavy-lifting
> yourself, which is certainly not a negative remark on Gentoo!
>
> If you have a very specific and niche issue, you can also reach out directly  to
> the Gentoo Accessibility  Project  in  different  forms  (#gentoo-accessibility;
> accessibility@gentoo.org; gentoo-accessibility@lists.gentoo.org) [1].
>
> > An A gentoo accessibility install podcast ought to have been available for
> > this distribution many years ago.
>
> A podcast for all accessibility use-cases in Gentoo would, once  again,  be  far
> too broad and help  only  a  minority  of  potentially  interested  viewers.   A
> dedicated espeak(up) page on the Gentoo wiki would be  great,  however.   I  was
> rather surprised to see that one didn't exist.
>
> > A feature that would be useful for menuconfig would be the ability once a
> > search is done to jump onto the desired search item directly (if the item
> > were available at all).
> > Maybe that's communicated by colors, I don't know.
>
> Currently, the closest thing menuconfig provides is detailing  the  location  of
> the `CONFIG_` option, in relation to the  graphical  menus  one  must  navigate.
> Sometimes it's just easier to edit your `.config` manually;  menuconfig  can  be
> terribly slow and cumbersome when  you're  only  searching  the  option  titles.
>
> [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Accessibility
>
>

-- 

This problem needs handling by gentoo accessibility project and I'll take
it their.
If this problem gets solved, I'll probably make a podcast at least for
speakup and maybe orca if I get that installed and working.  It won't be
of much use to gentoo, but the blinux-list may find it of interest.

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[John Covici]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 07:55:46 -0400,
Dale wrote:
> 
> [1  <text/plain; ISO-8859-1 (8bit)>]
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 22:09:00 -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> >
> >> A feature that would be useful for menuconfig would be the ability once
> >> a search is done to jump onto the desired search item directly (if the
> >> item were available at all).
> > That's already there. Options that are available have a number next to
> > them. Press that to jump to the option.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Wow!!!  O_O  I never noticed that.  It works too.  I did a search for
> speak and saw a number next to the results and hit it, 1 in my case, and
> it went right to it.  I'm not going to mention how many times I went
> digging to find something in the past.  It embarrassing.  ;-) 
> 
> Now that is cool.  I just hope I remember to use it the next time.  :/

I didn't know that either and have been doing this for years!

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Jude DaShiell]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020, John Covici wrote:

> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 12:52:34
> From: John Covici <covici@ccs.covici.com>
> Reply-To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook
>
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 07:55:46 -0400,
> Dale wrote:
> >
> > [1  <text/plain; ISO-8859-1 (8bit)>]
> > Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > > On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 22:09:00 -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > >
> > >> A feature that would be useful for menuconfig would be the ability once
> > >> a search is done to jump onto the desired search item directly (if the
> > >> item were available at all).
> > > That's already there. Options that are available have a number next to
> > > them. Press that to jump to the option.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Wow!!!  O_O  I never noticed that.  It works too.  I did a search for
> > speak and saw a number next to the results and hit it, 1 in my case, and
> > it went right to it.  I'm not going to mention how many times I went
> > digging to find something in the past.  It embarrassing.  ;-) 
> >
> > Now that is cool.  I just hope I remember to use it the next time.  :/
>
> I didn't know that either and have been doing this for years!
>
>

-- 

If nothing else at least three of us learned something useful today.
I suppose the shortest way to explain what I did extra before running make
menuconfig was to emerge espeakup.  Having done that espeakup emerged
about 35 packages many of which it likely would need.  I'm pretty sure
that step was correct, what if anything else to do after that before make
menuconfig I don't yet know.

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[WooHyung Jeon]

On 2020-10-11 오후 8:55, Dale wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 22:09:00 -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>
>>> A feature that would be useful for menuconfig would be the ability once
>>> a search is done to jump onto the desired search item directly (if the
>>> item were available at all).
>> That's already there. Options that are available have a number next to
>> them. Press that to jump to the option.
>>
>>
> 
> 
> Wow!!!  O_O  I never noticed that.  It works too.  I did a search for 
> speak and saw a number next to the results and hit it, 1 in my case, and 
> it went right to it.  I'm not going to mention how many times I went 
> digging to find something in the past.  It embarrassing.  ;-)
> 
> Now that is cool.  I just hope I remember to use it the next time. :/
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)

  Just watch out and read carefully where you landed on.
It could take you to the dependent option, before the specific
one. For example, even if you searched 'A' and select the number
left-side of 'A', it could land on option 'B' because it must
enabled before you can play with 'A'.

  I surprised twice. First, as you did, when I first noticed I
can select with the number, and Secondly, when I noticed it
sometimes didn't bring me to the specified option :)
-- 
Regards,
W.H.Jeon

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Jude DaShiell]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2020, WooHyung Jeon wrote:

> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 21:30:59
> From: WooHyung Jeon <dev@whjeon.com>
> Reply-To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook
>
> On 2020-10-11 ?? 8:55, Dale wrote:
> > Neil Bothwick wrote:
> >> On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 22:09:00 -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> >>
> >>> A feature that would be useful for menuconfig would be the ability once
> >>> a search is done to jump onto the desired search item directly (if the
> >>> item were available at all).
> >> That's already there. Options that are available have a number next to
> >> them. Press that to jump to the option.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Wow!!!  O_O  I never noticed that.  It works too.  I did a search for speak
> > and saw a number next to the results and hit it, 1 in my case, and it went
> > right to it.  I'm not going to mention how many times I went digging to find
> > something in the past.  It embarrassing.  ;-)
> >
> > Now that is cool.  I just hope I remember to use it the next time. :/
> >
> > Dale
> >
> > :-)  :-)
>
>  Just watch out and read carefully where you landed on.
> It could take you to the dependent option, before the specific
> one. For example, even if you searched 'A' and select the number
> left-side of 'A', it could land on option 'B' because it must
> enabled before you can play with 'A'.
>
>  I surprised twice. First, as you did, when I first noticed I
> can select with the number, and Secondly, when I noticed it
> sometimes didn't bring me to the specified option :)
>

-- 

Didn't read about any of this in the handbook, probably some material on
inside menuconfig might be where this stuff could go.

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Paul Ezvan]

Le lundi 12 octobre 2020, 08:47:02 CEST Jude DaShiell a écrit :

>Didn't read about any of this in the handbook, probably some material on
>inside menuconfig might be where this stuff could go.

One option would be to avoid the menuconfig step entirely, by following any of 
the kernel configuration alternative listed in the handbook.

I usually use the genkernel alternative which doesn't require to configure the 
kernel. On my last install I tried the distribution kernel alternative, which 
also went pretty smoothly.

Menuconfig is probably one of the trickiest step of the installation process, 
so you'd save a lot of potential headaches by following one of the 
alternatives.

Paul

[gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Jude DaShiell]

I found this out by means of documentation in the handbook pointing at it
but not being explicit about it.
# eselect profile show
during a new install is what you run to find what distribution your
distribution iso uses.
Also you will do best to select a matching profile for first time
installation.
The handbook danced around that second point.

Probably the cause for me running into so much difficulty converting from
openrc to systemd is there is no path for systems using systemd unless
they're using uefi and going multi-user also, I tried doing the conversion
during installation and not as a post-install job.
If such is the case, perhaps systemd article ought to be categorized as a
post-install option for those with uefi either running or able to run on
their equipment.
More later as I figure it out.



-- United States has 633 Billionaires with only 10 doing any annual
significant giving.

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[antlists]

On 14/11/2020 18:48, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> Probably the cause for me running into so much difficulty converting from
> openrc to systemd is there is no path for systems using systemd unless
> they're using uefi and going multi-user also, I tried doing the conversion
> during installation and not as a post-install job.

I certainly hope not!

My system is BIOS at the moment, I have no desire to mess things up by 
switching to UEFI, and I will be well upset if it doesn't work with systemd.

Oh - and my host system I'm using to set up gentoo is openSUSE 15.1, 
which is systemd, and happily boots with bios/grub.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 2:46 PM antlists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:
>
> On 14/11/2020 18:48, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > Probably the cause for me running into so much difficulty converting from
> > openrc to systemd is there is no path for systems using systemd unless
> > they're using uefi and going multi-user also, I tried doing the conversion
> > during installation and not as a post-install job.
>
> My system is BIOS at the moment, I have no desire to mess things up by
> switching to UEFI, and I will be well upset if it doesn't work with systemd.
>

All of my Gentoo hosts currently run systemd and none use UEFI, so
this configuration should work fine.  I'm not sure what indicated
otherwise.

From my experience assuming your kernel config is compatible all you
really need to do in order to switch to systemd is use the systemd
profile, run updates, install systemd if it hasn't already happened,
and configure your bootloader to use systemd as init.  Oh, and
regenerate your initramfs if you want it to use systemd.

I'd have to check my notes, but that is roughly it.  Obviously you'll
need to configure your networking/services/etc once you have it all
running.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Michael]

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On Saturday, 14 November 2020 18:48:57 GMT Jude DaShiell wrote:
> On 2020-11-14, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 14 Nov 2020, Grant Edwards wrote:
> >> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 17:30:51
> >> From: Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com>
> >> Reply-To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> >> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> >> Subject: [gentoo-user] Re: gentoo handbook
> >> 
> >> On 2020-11-14, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> wrote:
> >> > # eselect profile show
> >>> 
> >>> during a new install is what you run to find what distribution
> >>> your distribution iso uses.
> >>> 
> >>> Also you will do best to select a matching profile for first time
> >>> installation.
> >> 
> >> I don't understand what you mean above.  What is a "distribution
> >> ISO"?
> > 
> > In your case it probably starts with install-minimal and you got it
> > off the gentoo downloads page.
> 
> I've installed Gentoo using variety of distros: systemrescuecd,
> Ubuntu, install-minimal, etc.  I never noticed that it mattered what
> init system was in use during the install.

Same here.  I even used to cook my own systemrescuecd to include some wireless 
and video firmwares to suit different MoBos.  Booting and installing in UEFI 
Vs Legacy BIOS boils down to selecting any Linux LiveISO suitable for UEFI 
booting and in the MoBo's UEFI GUI menu setting the boot mode to EFI or Legacy 
BIOS.

During installation you should download the appropriate stage3 tarball[1] to 
correspond to the desired Gentoo profile[2].  Choosing a profile after you 
chroot is part of the installation steps.  If you decide to switch profile 
later on it is usually easy (except for no-multilib), but be prepared for some 
reconfiguring of your compile options and rebuilding of your @world set.

[1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/
Stage#Choosing_a_stage_tarball

[2] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/
Base#Choosing_the_right_profile

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Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Jude DaShiell]

Totally blind people without technical support equipped with working
eyes do not have and never will have useable access to any mo bo menu.

On Sun, 15 Nov 2020, Michael wrote:
That is my situation for the rest of this life.

> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:45:17
> From: Michael <confabulate@kintzios.com>
> Reply-To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook
>
> On Saturday, 14 November 2020 18:48:57 GMT Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > On 2020-11-14, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, 14 Nov 2020, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > >> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 17:30:51
> > >> From: Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com>
> > >> Reply-To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> > >> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> > >> Subject: [gentoo-user] Re: gentoo handbook
> > >>
> > >> On 2020-11-14, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> wrote:
> > >> > # eselect profile show
> > >>>
> > >>> during a new install is what you run to find what distribution
> > >>> your distribution iso uses.
> > >>>
> > >>> Also you will do best to select a matching profile for first time
> > >>> installation.
> > >>
> > >> I don't understand what you mean above.  What is a "distribution
> > >> ISO"?
> > >
> > > In your case it probably starts with install-minimal and you got it
> > > off the gentoo downloads page.
> >
> > I've installed Gentoo using variety of distros: systemrescuecd,
> > Ubuntu, install-minimal, etc.  I never noticed that it mattered what
> > init system was in use during the install.
>
> Same here.  I even used to cook my own systemrescuecd to include some wireless
> and video firmwares to suit different MoBos.  Booting and installing in UEFI
> Vs Legacy BIOS boils down to selecting any Linux LiveISO suitable for UEFI
> booting and in the MoBo's UEFI GUI menu setting the boot mode to EFI or Legacy
> BIOS.
>
> During installation you should download the appropriate stage3 tarball[1] to
> correspond to the desired Gentoo profile[2].  Choosing a profile after you
> chroot is part of the installation steps.  If you decide to switch profile
> later on it is usually easy (except for no-multilib), but be prepared for some
> reconfiguring of your compile options and rebuilding of your @world set.
>
> [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/
> Stage#Choosing_a_stage_tarball
>
> [2] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/
> Base#Choosing_the_right_profile
>

-- 
United States has 633 Billionaires with only 10 doing any annual
significant giving.

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Michael]

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On Sunday, 15 November 2020 14:34:09 GMT Jude DaShiell wrote:
> Totally blind people without technical support equipped with working
> eyes do not have and never will have useable access to any mo bo menu.

Right, in this case the first step to set up the boot mode on a UEFI MoBo will 
require help by a non-blind person.  Alternatively, someone with the same MoBo 
willing to help can record the number of various key strokes and provide a 
rubric to follow.

Either way, booting in UEFI is thankfully not a necessity.  Legacy BIOS works 
just as nice to be able to install and run Gentoo.  I still run 3 legacy BIOS 
systems here.  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo handbook

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 15:46:58 +0000, Michael wrote:

> On Sunday, 15 November 2020 14:34:09 GMT Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > Totally blind people without technical support equipped with working
> > eyes do not have and never will have useable access to any mo bo
> > menu.  
> 
> Right, in this case the first step to set up the boot mode on a UEFI
> MoBo will require help by a non-blind person.  Alternatively, someone
> with the same MoBo willing to help can record the number of various key
> strokes and provide a rubric to follow.
> 
> Either way, booting in UEFI is thankfully not a necessity.  Legacy BIOS
> works just as nice to be able to install and run Gentoo.  I still run 3
> legacy BIOS systems here.  :-)

In my experience, UEFI systems use UEFI boot by default. The problem with
installing Linux on them is usually the need to disable secure boot.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Three kinds of people: Those who can count, and those who can't.

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