* [gentoo-user] dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
@ 2020-07-20 14:39 Grant Edwards
2020-07-20 14:52 ` Ashley Dixon
0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2020-07-20 14:39 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
During my regular update, I see that net-dns/bind-tools is upgrading
from 9.14 to 9.16, and that's triggering the installation of _17_ new
packages (all apparently related to sphinx and Babel).
Is this sort of dependency bloat really necessary?
The "doc" flag for bind-tools is not set, so why does it demand that
sphinx be installed?
Does bind-tools really need packages like sphinxcontrib-qthelp,
sphinxcontrib-applehelp, sphinxcontrib-jsmath, sphinxcontrib-htmlhelp?
--
Grant
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-20 14:39 [gentoo-user] dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?! Grant Edwards
@ 2020-07-20 14:52 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-20 15:20 ` Neil Bothwick
0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Ashley Dixon @ 2020-07-20 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 02:39:48PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> During my regular update, I see that net-dns/bind-tools is upgrading
> from 9.14 to 9.16, and that's triggering the installation of _17_ new
> packages (all apparently related to sphinx and Babel).
>
> Is this sort of dependency bloat really necessary?
>
> The "doc" flag for bind-tools is not set, so why does it demand that
> sphinx be installed?
Sphinx is required (BDEPEND [1]) to build the man page, as commented in the
ebuild [2]:
# sphinx required for man-page and html creation
BDEPEND="${PYTHON_DEPS}
dev-python/sphinx
virtual/pkgconfig"
> Does bind-tools really need packages like sphinxcontrib-qthelp,
> sphinxcontrib-applehelp, sphinxcontrib-jsmath, sphinxcontrib-htmlhelp?
All of these are unfortunate consequences of Sphinx's hefty dependency list [3].
It seems that as the manual pages are installed with the package (regardless of
the `doc` USE-flag), there is no way of mitigating this dependency bloat with
the bind-tools 9.16 series. Hopefully this can be addressed by the developers in
future.
[1] https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/#build-dependencies
[2] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/net-dns/bind-tools/bind-tools-9.16.4.ebuild#n39
[3] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/dev-python/sphinx/sphinx-3.1.2.ebuild#n23
--
Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk
2A9A 4117
DA96 D18A
8A7B B0D2
A30E BF25
F290 A8AA
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-20 14:52 ` Ashley Dixon
@ 2020-07-20 15:20 ` Neil Bothwick
2020-07-20 15:31 ` Alarig Le Lay
0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2020-07-20 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 15:52:56 +0100, Ashley Dixon wrote:
> > Does bind-tools really need packages like sphinxcontrib-qthelp,
> > sphinxcontrib-applehelp, sphinxcontrib-jsmath,
> > sphinxcontrib-htmlhelp?
>
> All of these are unfortunate consequences of Sphinx's hefty dependency
> list [3]. It seems that as the manual pages are installed with the
> package (regardless of the `doc` USE-flag),
That's to be expected, the doc flag is supposed to control the
installation of extra documentation.
> there is no way of
> mitigating this dependency bloat with the bind-tools 9.16 series.
> Hopefully this can be addressed by the developers in future.
Including the man page in the files directory would avoid this, although
I don't know if this is considered good practice.
--
Neil Bothwick
Man and mouse are alike, both end up in pussy :)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-20 15:20 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2020-07-20 15:31 ` Alarig Le Lay
2020-07-20 15:36 ` Neil Bothwick
2020-07-20 16:07 ` Michael Orlitzky
0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Alarig Le Lay @ 2020-07-20 15:31 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Mon 20 Jul 2020 16:20:47 GMT, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> Including the man page in the files directory would avoid this, although
> I don't know if this is considered good practice.
Perhaps adding a man use flag which enabled by default?
--
Alarig
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-20 15:31 ` Alarig Le Lay
@ 2020-07-20 15:36 ` Neil Bothwick
2020-07-20 16:04 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-20 16:07 ` Michael Orlitzky
1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2020-07-20 15:36 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 17:31:04 +0200, Alarig Le Lay wrote:
> > Including the man page in the files directory would avoid this,
> > although I don't know if this is considered good practice.
>
> Perhaps adding a man use flag which enabled by default?
i don't think that's the issue. The problem is that the man pages are not
included in the upstream package, only the source for them. So if you
want to be able to RTFM, you need a load of dependencies.
--
Neil Bothwick
"Daddy, what does formatting drive 'C' mean?
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-20 15:36 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2020-07-20 16:04 ` Ashley Dixon
0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Ashley Dixon @ 2020-07-20 16:04 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 04:36:05PM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> i don't think that's the issue. The problem is that the man pages are not
> included in the upstream package, only the source for them. So if you
> want to be able to RTFM, you need a load of dependencies.
Perhaps a solution from upstream would be to distribute a simplified groff man
page with the program, and then the package managers could enable the
documentation requiring Sphinx only when the `doc` flag is set.
It seems like pre-9.16 versions distributed a lot of basic man pages for all the
various tools [1]. These have disappeared in recent versions.
$ find bind-9.14.12/ -regextype sed -regex "^.*[a-zA-Z][^0-9]*\.[0-9]$" -type f
bind-9.14.12/bin/dnssec/dnssec-dsfromkey.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/dnssec/dnssec-verify.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/dnssec/dnssec-importkey.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/dnssec/dnssec-keygen.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/dnssec/dnssec-revoke.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/dnssec/dnssec-cds.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/dnssec/dnssec-signzone.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/dnssec/dnssec-keyfromlabel.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/dnssec/dnssec-settime.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/delv/delv.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/checkconf/dnssec.3
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/checkconf/dnssec.2
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/checkconf/dnssec.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/statschannel/traffic.expect.5
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/statschannel/traffic.expect.6
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/statschannel/traffic.expect.2
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/statschannel/traffic.expect.4
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/statschannel/traffic.expect.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns2/redirect.db.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns2/redirect.db.2
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns1/redirect.db.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns1/redirect.db.2
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns3/redirect.db.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns3/redirect.db.2
bind-9.14.12/bin/confgen/ddns-confgen.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/confgen/rndc-confgen.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/named/named.conf.5
bind-9.14.12/bin/named/named.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/python/dnssec-checkds.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/python/dnssec-keymgr.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/python/dnssec-coverage.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/dig/host.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/dig/dig.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/dig/nslookup.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/check/named-checkzone.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/check/named-checkconf.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/tools/named-journalprint.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/tools/mdig.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/tools/dnstap-read.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/tools/named-rrchecker.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/tools/nsec3hash.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/tools/arpaname.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/tools/named-nzd2nzf.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/plugins/filter-aaaa.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/nsupdate/nsupdate.1
bind-9.14.12/bin/pkcs11/pkcs11-keygen.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/pkcs11/pkcs11-tokens.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/pkcs11/pkcs11-list.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/pkcs11/pkcs11-destroy.8
bind-9.14.12/bin/rndc/rndc.conf.5
bind-9.14.12/bin/rndc/rndc.8
bind-9.14.12/isc-config.sh.1
$ find bind-9.16.4/ -regextype sed -regex "^.*[a-zA-Z][^0-9]*\.[0-9]$" -type f
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/checkconf/dnssec.3
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/checkconf/dnssec.2
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/checkconf/dnssec.1
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/statschannel/traffic.expect.5
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/statschannel/traffic.expect.6
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/statschannel/traffic.expect.2
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/statschannel/traffic.expect.4
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/statschannel/traffic.expect.1
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns2/redirect.db.1
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns2/redirect.db.2
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns1/redirect.db.1
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns1/redirect.db.2
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns3/redirect.db.1
bind-9.16.4/bin/tests/system/addzone/ns3/redirect.db.2
[1] https://downloads.isc.org/isc/bind9/9.14.12/bind-9.14.12.tar.gz
--
Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk
2A9A 4117
DA96 D18A
8A7B B0D2
A30E BF25
F290 A8AA
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-20 15:31 ` Alarig Le Lay
2020-07-20 15:36 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2020-07-20 16:07 ` Michael Orlitzky
2020-07-21 13:08 ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Michael Orlitzky @ 2020-07-20 16:07 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 2020-07-20 11:31, Alarig Le Lay wrote:
> On Mon 20 Jul 2020 16:20:47 GMT, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> Including the man page in the files directory would avoid this, although
>> I don't know if this is considered good practice.
>
> Perhaps adding a man use flag which enabled by default?
>
The return-on-investment is too low, since we'd have to hack every
upstream build system to support it, and almost everyone wants the man
pages anyway. They're tiny, and the package is often unusable without them.
These are build-only dependencies so "emerge --depclean" can remove them
after you install bind-tools. In a source-based distro, you should
probably just get comfortable with having a million build tools
installed though.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-20 16:07 ` Michael Orlitzky
@ 2020-07-21 13:08 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-21 14:40 ` Michael Orlitzky
2020-07-21 14:47 ` Neil Bothwick
0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2020-07-21 13:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 2020-07-20, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:
> These are build-only dependencies so "emerge --depclean" can remove them
> after you install bind-tools.
Except it doesn't. I did an "emerge --depclean" after updating
bind-tools, and sphinx et al were not removed.
--
Grant
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-21 13:08 ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
@ 2020-07-21 14:40 ` Michael Orlitzky
2020-07-21 14:47 ` Neil Bothwick
1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Michael Orlitzky @ 2020-07-21 14:40 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 2020-07-21 13:08:16, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2020-07-20, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> > These are build-only dependencies so "emerge --depclean" can remove them
> > after you install bind-tools.
>
> Except it doesn't. I did an "emerge --depclean" after updating
> bind-tools, and sphinx et al were not removed.
>
The logic (and documentation) is incomprehensible to me, but this
behavior depends on --with-bdeps and some related arguments to emerge.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-21 13:08 ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
2020-07-21 14:40 ` Michael Orlitzky
@ 2020-07-21 14:47 ` Neil Bothwick
2020-07-21 15:03 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-21 15:23 ` Peter Humphrey
1 sibling, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Neil Bothwick @ 2020-07-21 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 13:08:16 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
> > These are build-only dependencies so "emerge --depclean" can remove
> > them after you install bind-tools.
>
> Except it doesn't. I did an "emerge --depclean" after updating
> bind-tools, and sphinx et al were not removed.
Sync, re-emerge bind-tools and try again. The man pages are now
downloaded as a separate tarball, so Sphinx and deps are not longer
needed.
--
Neil Bothwick
SITCOM: Single Income, Two Children, Oppressive Mortgage
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-21 14:47 ` Neil Bothwick
@ 2020-07-21 15:03 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-21 15:06 ` Neil Bothwick
2020-07-21 15:23 ` Peter Humphrey
1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2020-07-21 15:03 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 2020-07-21, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 13:08:16 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> > These are build-only dependencies so "emerge --depclean" can remove
>> > them after you install bind-tools.
>>
>> Except it doesn't. I did an "emerge --depclean" after updating
>> bind-tools, and sphinx et al were not removed.
>
> Sync, re-emerge bind-tools and try again.
I will as soon as yesterday's emerge -auvND finishes. Chromium got
updated, and that build time is measured in days rather than minutes.
> The man pages are now downloaded as a separate tarball, so Sphinx
> and deps are not longer needed.
Wow, that's impressive service! One nit-picking, whiney post on the
mailing list and the "problem" gets fixed in a matter of hours. :)
--
Grant
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-21 14:47 ` Neil Bothwick
2020-07-21 15:03 ` Grant Edwards
@ 2020-07-21 15:23 ` Peter Humphrey
2020-07-21 16:00 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-22 8:46 ` Peter Humphrey
1 sibling, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Peter Humphrey @ 2020-07-21 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 15:47:25 BST Neil Bothwick wrote:
> Sync, re-emerge bind-tools and try again. The man pages are now
> downloaded as a separate tarball, so Sphinx and deps are not longer
> needed.
And lo! 17 packages were removed by depclean!
--
Regards,
Peter.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-21 15:23 ` Peter Humphrey
@ 2020-07-21 16:00 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-21 17:15 ` Grant Edwards
` (2 more replies)
2020-07-22 8:46 ` Peter Humphrey
1 sibling, 3 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2020-07-21 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 2020-07-21, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 15:47:25 BST Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
>> Sync, re-emerge bind-tools and try again. The man pages are now
>> downloaded as a separate tarball, so Sphinx and deps are not longer
>> needed.
>
> And lo! 17 packages were removed by depclean!
Before I can try that, I apparently have to enable the elogind USE flag
because of somthing else that changed since I sync'ed yesterday.
That only requires 6 new packages (two of them are
acct-{user,group}/polkitd, so it's only 4 new "real" packages. Of
course every self-respecting package needs to install at least one new
programming language -- this time it's dev-lang/spidermonkey. :/
Sheesh.
--
Grant
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread* [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-21 16:00 ` Grant Edwards
@ 2020-07-21 17:15 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-22 1:30 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-23 5:02 ` Michael Orlitzky
2 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2020-07-21 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 2020-07-21, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2020-07-21, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 15:47:25 BST Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>
>>> Sync, re-emerge bind-tools and try again. The man pages are now
>>> downloaded as a separate tarball, so Sphinx and deps are not longer
>>> needed.
>>
>> And lo! 17 packages were removed by depclean!
>
> Before I can try that, I apparently have to enable the elogind USE
> flag because of somthing else that changed since I sync'ed
> yesterday. That only requires 6 new packages [...]
After that, X wouldn't start... another half-hour of googling and
experimentation... switch my 'x' alias from using 'xinit' to
'startx', and now X is working again.
... and emerge --depclean removes all of the sphinx packages along
with Babel, jinja, and a few others!
So, I gained back the ground I lost yesterday to bind-tools, but lost
some ground to elogind et alia.
--
Grant
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-21 16:00 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-21 17:15 ` Grant Edwards
@ 2020-07-22 1:30 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-22 1:39 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-22 2:29 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-23 5:02 ` Michael Orlitzky
2 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Walter Dnes @ 2020-07-22 1:30 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 04:00:21PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote
>
> Before I can try that, I apparently have to enable the elogind USE
> flag because of somthing else that changed since I sync'ed yesterday.
>
> That only requires 6 new packages (two of them are
> acct-{user,group}/polkitd, so it's only 4 new "real" packages. Of
> course every self-respecting package needs to install at least one new
> programming language -- this time it's dev-lang/spidermonkey. :/
>
> Sheesh.
According to news item https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2020-06-24-xorg-server-dropping-default-suid.html
* xorg-server will no longer be "suid" *BY DEFAULT*
* that means *THE DEFAULT* is to require a logind server like systemd
or elogind
The news item also says...
> Users who do not wish to use logind interface or have rare hardware
> that does not use KMS and because of that, require root privileges
> to operate, can manually re-enable 'suid' and disable 'elogind' USE
> flags in order to preserve the previous behavior. However, please
> note that this is heavily discouraged to run X server as root due
> to security reasons. The 'suid' USE flag will remain as optional
> opt-in for the need of legacy hardware.
I've set "x11-base/xorg-server glamor suid udev xorg" in package.use
and "-elogind" in make.conf, and no additional packages are required. I
used to start with USE="-*" but I don't do that anymore. Instead I use
USE="10bit X apng ffmpeg jpeg opengl png szip truetype x264 x265 xorg threads webp -acl -arping -berkdb -bindist -caps -cracklib -crypt -elogind -filecaps -gallium -gdbm -graphite -iconv -introspection -ipc -iptables -ipv6 -libav -libglvnd -llvm -manpager -nls -openmp -pam -pch -sendmail -tcpd -udev -udisks -unicode -xinerama"
--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-22 1:30 ` Walter Dnes
@ 2020-07-22 1:39 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-22 2:29 ` Grant Edwards
1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Ashley Dixon @ 2020-07-22 1:39 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
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On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 09:30:07PM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote:
> According to news item https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2020-06-24-xorg-server-dropping-default-suid.html
>
> * xorg-server will no longer be "suid" *BY DEFAULT*
> * that means *THE DEFAULT* is to require a logind server like systemd
> or elogind
>
> The news item also says...
>
> > Users who do not wish to use logind interface or have rare hardware
> > that does not use KMS and because of that, require root privileges
> > to operate, can manually re-enable 'suid' and disable 'elogind' USE
> > flags in order to preserve the previous behavior. However, please
> > note that this is heavily discouraged to run X server as root due
> > to security reasons. The 'suid' USE flag will remain as optional
> > opt-in for the need of legacy hardware.
>
> I've set "x11-base/xorg-server glamor suid udev xorg" in package.use
> and "-elogind" in make.conf, and no additional packages are required. I
> used to start with USE="-*" but I don't do that anymore. Instead I use
>
> USE="10bit X apng ffmpeg jpeg opengl png szip truetype x264 x265 xorg threads
> webp -acl -arping -berkdb -bindist -caps -cracklib -crypt -elogind -filecaps
> -gallium -gdbm -graphite -iconv -introspection -ipc -iptables -ipv6 -libav
> -libglvnd -llvm -manpager -nls -openmp -pam -pch -sendmail -tcpd -udev -udisks
> -unicode -xinerama"
There was a big argument about it over on Gentoo-Dev. It essentially reduced to
the point that although most Gentoo users are still going to want "suid" (in the
absence of systemd/elogind or another fancy login manager), Portage should
provide good, non-anti-pattern, secure defaults for _new_ users, however much
of an inconvenience it may be for existing users who run X with `startx`. I
generally agree with them on this point; "suid" is horribly outdated, however
ubiquitous (especially for minimalist systems).
https://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org/msg89536.html
--
Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk
2A9A 4117
DA96 D18A
8A7B B0D2
A30E BF25
F290 A8AA
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-22 1:30 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-22 1:39 ` Ashley Dixon
@ 2020-07-22 2:29 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-22 3:21 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-22 4:40 ` Walter Dnes
1 sibling, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2020-07-22 2:29 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 2020-07-22, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 04:00:21PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote
>>
>> Before I can try that, I apparently have to enable the elogind USE
>> flag because of somthing else that changed since I sync'ed yesterday.
>>
>> That only requires 6 new packages (two of them are
>> acct-{user,group}/polkitd, so it's only 4 new "real" packages. Of
>> course every self-respecting package needs to install at least one new
>> programming language -- this time it's dev-lang/spidermonkey. :/
>>
>> Sheesh.
>
> According to news item https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2020-06-24-xorg-server-dropping-default-suid.html
>
> * xorg-server will no longer be "suid" *BY DEFAULT*
> * that means *THE DEFAULT* is to require a logind server like systemd
> or elogind
>
> The news item also says...
>
>> Users who do not wish to use logind interface or have rare hardware
>> that does not use KMS and because of that, require root privileges
>> to operate, can manually re-enable 'suid' and disable 'elogind' USE
>> flags in order to preserve the previous behavior.
Yes, that's what I did months ago, and everything worked fine with
Xorg using the "suid" flag and without consolekit or elogind -- until
this morning, when pam refused to upgrade unless I set the elogind USE
flag.
--
Grant
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-22 2:29 ` Grant Edwards
@ 2020-07-22 3:21 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-22 13:25 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-22 4:40 ` Walter Dnes
1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Ashley Dixon @ 2020-07-22 3:21 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 925 bytes --]
On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 02:29:48AM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> Yes, that's what I did months ago, and everything worked fine with
> Xorg using the "suid" flag and without consolekit or elogind -- until
> this morning, when pam refused to upgrade unless I set the elogind USE
> flag.
Look at REQUIRED_USE in sys-auth/pambase ebuild [1]:
REQUIRED_USE="?? ( consolekit elogind systemd )"
I.e., "zero or one of `consolekit`, `elogind`, or `systemd` must be set, but not
several". [2]
Run `quse -Ip sys-auth/pambase | grep -E 'consolekit|elogind|systemd'` to check
the USE-flags with which you're asking Portage to build pambase.
[1] https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/tree/sys-auth/pambase/pambase-20200618.ebuild#n19
[2] https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/variables/index.html#eapi-5
--
Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk
2A9A 4117
DA96 D18A
8A7B B0D2
A30E BF25
F290 A8AA
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread* [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-22 3:21 ` Ashley Dixon
@ 2020-07-22 13:25 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-22 13:42 ` Walter Dnes
0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2020-07-22 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 2020-07-22, Ashley Dixon <ash@suugaku.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 02:29:48AM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> Yes, that's what I did months ago, and everything worked fine with
>> Xorg using the "suid" flag and without consolekit or elogind -- until
>> this morning, when pam refused to upgrade unless I set the elogind USE
>> flag.
>
> Look at REQUIRED_USE in sys-auth/pambase ebuild [1]:
> REQUIRED_USE="?? ( consolekit elogind systemd )"
>
> I.e., "zero or one of `consolekit`, `elogind`, or `systemd` must be set, but not
> several". [2]
Right. Contrary to what the news article says, you can not just enable
'suid' on xorg-server and run without consolekit/elogind/systemd.
--
Grant
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-22 13:25 ` Grant Edwards
@ 2020-07-22 13:42 ` Walter Dnes
0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Walter Dnes @ 2020-07-22 13:42 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 01:25:01PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote
> On 2020-07-22, Ashley Dixon <ash@suugaku.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 02:29:48AM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> >> Yes, that's what I did months ago, and everything worked fine with
> >> Xorg using the "suid" flag and without consolekit or elogind -- until
> >> this morning, when pam refused to upgrade unless I set the elogind USE
> >> flag.
> >
> > Look at REQUIRED_USE in sys-auth/pambase ebuild [1]:
> > REQUIRED_USE="?? ( consolekit elogind systemd )"
> >
> > I.e., "zero or one of `consolekit`, `elogind`, or `systemd` must be set,
> > but not several".
>
> Right. Contrary to what the news article says, you can not just enable
> 'suid' on xorg-server and run without consolekit/elogind/systemd.
I'm doing that right now, so yes it does work. Please re-read Ashley
Dixon's post... "zero or one of". I have zero of them set.
--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-22 2:29 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-22 3:21 ` Ashley Dixon
@ 2020-07-22 4:40 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-22 13:27 ` Grant Edwards
1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Walter Dnes @ 2020-07-22 4:40 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 02:29:48AM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote
> On 2020-07-22, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> >
> > According to news item https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2020-06-24-xorg-server-dropping-default-suid.html
> >
> > * xorg-server will no longer be "suid" *BY DEFAULT*
> > * that means *THE DEFAULT* is to require a logind server like systemd
> > or elogind
> >
> > The news item also says...
> >
> >> Users who do not wish to use logind interface or have rare hardware
> >> that does not use KMS and because of that, require root privileges
> >> to operate, can manually re-enable 'suid' and disable 'elogind' USE
> >> flags in order to preserve the previous behavior.
>
> Yes, that's what I did months ago, and everything worked fine with
> Xorg using the "suid" flag and without consolekit or elogind -- until
> this morning, when pam refused to upgrade unless I set the elogind USE
> flag.
The news item said that to retain old behaviour you need to do *BOTH*
- set x11-base/xorg-server suid (which I did in package.use)
- set "-elogind" (which I did in USE in make.conf)
BTW, I have pam totally masked out...
[i660][root][~] cat /etc/portage/package.mask/package.mask
sys-apps/pv
sys-auth/pambase
sys-libs/pam
virtual/pam
Years ago, back when pam was default on the Gentoo install, it was to
many users what HAL was to Dale, causing problems galore. The root of
the problem was that pam provided "enhanced security" for some apps by
changing to a different config file for the app, using different config
specs. You could run "man <appname>" and do all the Google searches you
wanted, but you always ended up with instructions for configuring the
"un-pam-ified" version, not the "pam-ified" version. "Everything you
know is wrong". So I fell into the habit of removing pam right after
installation.
And the reason I mask out "sys-apps/pv" is because too many times when
I want to run "emerge -pv <appname>" I did "emerge pv <appname>" which
has a *TOTALLY* different meaning.
--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-22 4:40 ` Walter Dnes
@ 2020-07-22 13:27 ` Grant Edwards
0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Grant Edwards @ 2020-07-22 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 2020-07-22, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
>> >> Users who do not wish to use logind interface or have rare hardware
>> >> that does not use KMS and because of that, require root privileges
>> >> to operate, can manually re-enable 'suid' and disable 'elogind' USE
>> >> flags in order to preserve the previous behavior.
>>
>> Yes, that's what I did months ago, and everything worked fine with
>> Xorg using the "suid" flag and without consolekit or elogind -- until
>> this morning, when pam refused to upgrade unless I set the elogind USE
>> flag.
>
> The news item said that to retain old behaviour you need to do *BOTH*
> - set x11-base/xorg-server suid (which I did in package.use)
> - set "-elogind" (which I did in USE in make.conf)
Except starting yesterday, pam no longer allows that.
> BTW, I have pam totally masked out...
I used to run without pam, but something required it a while back.
Maybe I should look into removing pam again.
--
Grant
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-21 16:00 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-21 17:15 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-22 1:30 ` Walter Dnes
@ 2020-07-23 5:02 ` Michael Orlitzky
2 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Michael Orlitzky @ 2020-07-23 5:02 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 2020-07-21 12:00, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
> That only requires 6 new packages (two of them are
> acct-{user,group}/polkitd, so it's only 4 new "real" packages. Of
> course every self-respecting package needs to install at least one new
> programming language -- this time it's dev-lang/spidermonkey. :/
>
> Sheesh.
>
You can get rid of a few of those with
sys-auth/elogind -policykit
sys-auth/pambase elogind
in package.use, if you don't need whatever it is that policykit does.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-21 15:23 ` Peter Humphrey
2020-07-21 16:00 ` Grant Edwards
@ 2020-07-22 8:46 ` Peter Humphrey
2020-07-22 13:59 ` Walter Dnes
1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Peter Humphrey @ 2020-07-22 8:46 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 16:23:35 BST Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 15:47:25 BST Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > Sync, re-emerge bind-tools and try again. The man pages are now
> > downloaded as a separate tarball, so Sphinx and deps are not longer
> > needed.
>
> And lo! 17 packages were removed by depclean!
And woe! Sphinx is pulled back in again by llvm today. :(
# less $(equery w llvm)
RDEPEND
--->8
$(python_gen_any_dep '
dev-python/sphinx[${PYTHON_USEDEP}]
doc? ( dev-python/recommonmark[${PYTHON_USEDEP}] )
')"
So it doesn't even depend on the doc USE flag.
--
Regards,
Peter.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-22 8:46 ` Peter Humphrey
@ 2020-07-22 13:59 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-22 15:13 ` Peter Humphrey
0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Walter Dnes @ 2020-07-22 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 09:46:34AM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote
>
> So it doesn't even depend on the doc USE flag.
>
Strange. On my system...
==================================================================
USE="-doc" emerge -pv llvm
[i660][root][~] USE="-doc" emerge -pv llvm
These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild N ] sys-devel/llvm-common-10.0.0::gentoo 117,974 KiB
[ebuild N ] sys-devel/llvm-10.0.0:10::gentoo USE="libffi ncurses -debug -doc -exegesis -gold -libedit -test -xar -xml -z3" LLVM_TARGETS="AMDGPU BPF NVPTX (X86) -AArch64 -ARC -ARM -AVR -Hexagon -Lanai -MSP430 -Mips -PowerPC -RISCV -Sparc -SystemZ -WebAssembly -XCore" 173 KiB
====================================================================
USE="doc" emerge -pv llvm
These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
Calculating dependencies... done!
emerge: there are no ebuilds built with USE flags to satisfy ">=media-libs/gd-2.0.34:=[fontconfig,jpeg,png,truetype,zlib]".
!!! One of the following packages is required to complete your request:
- media-libs/gd-2.3.0::gentoo (Change USE: +fontconfig)
(dependency required by "media-gfx/graphviz-2.42.3::gentoo" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "dev-python/sphinx-3.0.4::gentoo[doc]" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "sys-devel/llvm-10.0.0::gentoo[doc]" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "llvm" [argument])
====================================================================
It looks like "doc" is set somewhere in one of...
- make.conf
- package.use
- your profile
- default inherited by the llvm ebuild
I've just added "-doc" to USE in make.conf. It's now up to...
USE="10bit X apng ffmpeg jpeg opengl png szip truetype x264 x265 xorg threads webp -acl -arping -berkdb -bindist -caps -cracklib -crypt -doc -elogind -filecaps -gallium -gdbm -graphite -iconv -introspection -ipc -iptables -ipv6 -libav -libglvnd -llvm -manpager -nls -openmp -pam -pch -sendmail -tcpd -udev -udisks -unicode -xinerama"
--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-22 13:59 ` Walter Dnes
@ 2020-07-22 15:13 ` Peter Humphrey
2020-07-23 5:45 ` Walter Dnes
0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Peter Humphrey @ 2020-07-22 15:13 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 14:59:01 BST Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 09:46:34AM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote
>
> > So it doesn't even depend on the doc USE flag.
>
> Strange. On my system...
<snip>
But if you upgrade to 10.0.1, as I did today, you'll find things have changed.
At least, I did.
--
Regards,
Peter.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-22 15:13 ` Peter Humphrey
@ 2020-07-23 5:45 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-23 6:17 ` Ashley Dixon
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Walter Dnes @ 2020-07-23 5:45 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 04:13:10PM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote
> On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 14:59:01 BST Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 09:46:34AM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote
> >
> > > So it doesn't even depend on the doc USE flag.
> >
> > Strange. On my system...
>
> <snip>
>
> But if you upgrade to 10.0.1, as I did today, you'll find things have changed.
> At least, I did.
I assume you're on unstable?
ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64" USE="-doc -libffi -ncurses emerge -pv =sys-devel/llvm-10.0.1
...does indeed pull in sphinx. If I didn't know any better, I'd say
that Lennart is behind this. Anyhow, I've managed to avoid llvm
altogether (USE="-llvm"), so I don't have that problem.
--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-23 5:45 ` Walter Dnes
@ 2020-07-23 6:17 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-23 7:59 ` Peter Humphrey
2020-07-23 14:18 ` Wols Lists
2 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Ashley Dixon @ 2020-07-23 6:17 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 891 bytes --]
On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 01:45:27AM -0400, Walter Dnes wrote:
> ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64" USE="-doc -libffi -ncurses emerge -pv =sys-devel/llvm-10.0.1
>
> ...does indeed pull in sphinx. If I didn't know any better, I'd say
> that Lennart is behind this. Anyhow, I've managed to avoid llvm
> altogether (USE="-llvm"), so I don't have that problem.
As in most other Sphinx-utilising packages, it is listed in the BDEPEND
variable, meaning that it is only required during the building of the package
[1]. If `emerge -c` isn't removing what you would expect, try something like
`emerge -cv dev-python/sphinx` to see the explicit reverse-dependencies blocking
the removal.
[1] https://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/dependencies/index.html#build-dependencies
--
Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk
2A9A 4117
DA96 D18A
8A7B B0D2
A30E BF25
F290 A8AA
[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-23 5:45 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-23 6:17 ` Ashley Dixon
@ 2020-07-23 7:59 ` Peter Humphrey
2020-07-23 14:18 ` Wols Lists
2 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Peter Humphrey @ 2020-07-23 7:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On Thursday, 23 July 2020 06:45:27 BST Walter Dnes wrote:
> I assume you're on unstable?
Yes, I needed it for zoom.
> ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64" USE="-doc -libffi -ncurses emerge -pv
> =sys-devel/llvm-10.0.1
>
> ...does indeed pull in sphinx. If I didn't know any better, I'd say
> that Lennart is behind this. Anyhow, I've managed to avoid llvm
> altogether (USE="-llvm"), so I don't have that problem.
I don't have that option, as my video card driver requires llvm.
--
Regards,
Peter.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-user] Re: dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?!
2020-07-23 5:45 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-23 6:17 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-23 7:59 ` Peter Humphrey
@ 2020-07-23 14:18 ` Wols Lists
2 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Wols Lists @ 2020-07-23 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-user
On 23/07/20 06:45, Walter Dnes wrote:
> ...does indeed pull in sphinx. If I didn't know any better, I'd say
> that Lennart is behind this. Anyhow, I've managed to avoid llvm
> altogether (USE="-llvm"), so I don't have that problem.
I think you might find sphinx is a dependency of the kernel ...
Iirc all of the kernel doc is slowly being switched to sphinx.
Cheers,
Wol
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-07-23 14:19 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 31+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-07-20 14:39 [gentoo-user] dns/bind-tools 9.14 -> 9.16 pulling in 17 new dependencies?! Grant Edwards
2020-07-20 14:52 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-20 15:20 ` Neil Bothwick
2020-07-20 15:31 ` Alarig Le Lay
2020-07-20 15:36 ` Neil Bothwick
2020-07-20 16:04 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-20 16:07 ` Michael Orlitzky
2020-07-21 13:08 ` [gentoo-user] " Grant Edwards
2020-07-21 14:40 ` Michael Orlitzky
2020-07-21 14:47 ` Neil Bothwick
2020-07-21 15:03 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-21 15:06 ` Neil Bothwick
2020-07-21 15:23 ` Peter Humphrey
2020-07-21 16:00 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-21 17:15 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-22 1:30 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-22 1:39 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-22 2:29 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-22 3:21 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-22 13:25 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-22 13:42 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-22 4:40 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-22 13:27 ` Grant Edwards
2020-07-23 5:02 ` Michael Orlitzky
2020-07-22 8:46 ` Peter Humphrey
2020-07-22 13:59 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-22 15:13 ` Peter Humphrey
2020-07-23 5:45 ` Walter Dnes
2020-07-23 6:17 ` Ashley Dixon
2020-07-23 7:59 ` Peter Humphrey
2020-07-23 14:18 ` Wols Lists
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