[gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Consus]

Hi,

In all honesty, is Gentoo dead? Gentoo-Dev is filled with passive
aggression (though being developers-only mailing list), Github bot warns
you that contributing new packages to the main repo is low priority and
probably no one will help you, and even distribution kernel is not an
official thing, but a desperate attempt of someone to fix things.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Ashley Dixon]

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On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 07:58:03PM +0300, Consus wrote:
> In all honesty, is Gentoo dead? Gentoo-Dev is filled with passive
> aggression (though being developers-only mailing list), Github bot warns
> you that contributing new packages to the main repo is low priority and
> probably no one will help you, and even distribution kernel is not an
> official thing, but a desperate attempt of someone to fix things.

Considering there have been almost 6000 commits to the repository in the last 21
days, I would question that claim.

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-commits/threads/2020-04/

gentoo-dev isn't really filled with  any  sort  aggression.   There  is  healthy
debate, especially considering the recent switch to Python 3.7  and  masking  of
most 3.6-only packages, but that rigorous scrutiny is a requirement for  such  a
strong distro.

There  have,  of  course,  been  exceptions,  such  as  when  bman  went  on  an
"unsanctioned Python crusade"  (removal  of  all  Python  2  packages;  not  the
greatest of ideas), however in general, the Gentoo community is one of the  most
alive and healthy I've seen in any Linux distribution.

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/6e8d816eb0125d6581be70f575272653

-- 

Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk

2A9A 4117
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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Alessandro Barbieri]

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There is the ongoing drama about go in the Gentoo-dev ML for example.

Il Mar 21 Apr 2020, 19:12 Ashley Dixon <ash@suugaku.co.uk> ha scritto:

> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 07:58:03PM +0300, Consus wrote:
> > In all honesty, is Gentoo dead? Gentoo-Dev is filled with passive
> > aggression (though being developers-only mailing list), Github bot warns
> > you that contributing new packages to the main repo is low priority and
> > probably no one will help you, and even distribution kernel is not an
> > official thing, but a desperate attempt of someone to fix things.
>
> Considering there have been almost 6000 commits to the repository in the
> last 21
> days, I would question that claim.
>
> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-commits/threads/2020-04/
>
> gentoo-dev isn't really filled with  any  sort  aggression.   There  is
> healthy
> debate, especially considering the recent switch to Python 3.7  and
> masking  of
> most 3.6-only packages, but that rigorous scrutiny is a requirement for
> such  a
> strong distro.
>
> There  have,  of  course,  been  exceptions,  such  as  when  bman  went
> on  an
> "unsanctioned Python crusade"  (removal  of  all  Python  2  packages;
> not  the
> greatest of ideas), however in general, the Gentoo community is one of
> the  most
> alive and healthy I've seen in any Linux distribution.
>
>
> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/6e8d816eb0125d6581be70f575272653
>
> --
>
> Ashley Dixon
> suugaku.co.uk
>
> 2A9A 4117
> DA96 D18A
> 8A7B B0D2
> A30E BF25
> F290 A8AA
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:58 PM Consus <consus@ftml.net> wrote:
>
> even distribution kernel is not an
> official thing, but a desperate attempt of someone to fix things.
>

Huh?  gentoo-sources is in at least as good a shape as I've ever seen
it.  I'd argue it is in better shape than at a lot of times in the
past.

There are other kernels in the repo, as there have been for as long as
I can remember.   They vary in purpose and level of QA.  And of course
you can just download your own sources considering the official
handbook instructions has you build your own kernel anyway...  I
personally just run upstream longterm so that I have more control over
things, because I run ZFS.  However I wouldn't say that this is any
problem with the Gentoo kernels - I just have unusual needs and a
package for the source tarball doesn't really add much value anyway.
A package that actually builds/installs a working kernel seems like a
lot more value-add aside from the QA.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Consus]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 02:10:54PM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:58 PM Consus <consus@ftml.net> wrote:
> >
> > even distribution kernel is not an
> > official thing, but a desperate attempt of someone to fix things.
> >
> 
> Huh?  gentoo-sources is in at least as good a shape as I've ever seen
> it.  I'd argue it is in better shape than at a lot of times in the
> past.

Still you have to manually configure things. And I know that Gentoo is
about choice, but configuring kernel is hard.
 
> There are other kernels in the repo, as there have been for as long as
> I can remember.   They vary in purpose and level of QA.  And of course
> you can just download your own sources considering the official
> handbook instructions has you build your own kernel anyway...  I
> personally just run upstream longterm so that I have more control over
> things, because I run ZFS.  However I wouldn't say that this is any
> problem with the Gentoo kernels - I just have unusual needs and a
> package for the source tarball doesn't really add much value anyway.
> A package that actually builds/installs a working kernel seems like a
> lot more value-add aside from the QA.

That's why I love gentoo-kernel-bin. It provides a decent kernel without
any "oh crap oh crap oh crap what should I do with all these new
options".

P.S. genkernel seems to be actively maintained again, neat.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 2:33 PM Consus <consus@ftml.net> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 02:10:54PM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:58 PM Consus <consus@ftml.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > even distribution kernel is not an
> > > official thing, but a desperate attempt of someone to fix things.
> > >
> >
> > Huh?  gentoo-sources is in at least as good a shape as I've ever seen
> > it.  I'd argue it is in better shape than at a lot of times in the
> > past.
>
> Still you have to manually configure things. And I know that Gentoo is
> about choice, but configuring kernel is hard.
>

Sure, but by that standard Gentoo has been dead from day 1.  :)

I'm all for precompiled kernels or packages that build them from
source like any other Gentoo package.  However, these have only been a
thing since very recently on Gentoo.  If they're not 100% working this
is more because they're new/etc than any kind of decay.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Consus]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 02:41:59PM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> Sure, but by that standard Gentoo has been dead from day 1.  :)

Yeah, I remember.

> I'm all for precompiled kernels or packages that build them from
> source like any other Gentoo package.  However, these have only been a
> thing since very recently on Gentoo.

Well, having prebuilt and more or less tested gentoo-kernel-bin helps a
_lot_.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Ralph Seichter]

* consus@ftml.net:

> Still you have to manually configure things. And I know that Gentoo is
> about choice, but configuring kernel is hard.

It may be hard for you personally, but it is not hard for everyone, so I
object to the generalisation. You can choose between learning more about
the Linux kernel (it is not a Gentoo-specific subject) or opt to go with
Genkernel instead. I see nothing "dead" in that.

-Ralph

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Consus]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 08:51:57PM +0200, Ralph Seichter wrote:
> You can choose between learning more about the Linux kernel (it is not
> a Gentoo-specific subject) or opt to go with Genkernel instead.

I'm getting paid for writing Linux Kernel code. Still, manual
configuration in 2020 is not not necessary until you're doing something
tricky. Especially when you use Gentoo as your daily driver.

> I see nothing "dead" in that.

I'm happy to see genkernel actually getting some love. A couple of years
ago it was in much worse shape.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Consus wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 08:51:57PM +0200, Ralph Seichter wrote:
>> You can choose between learning more about the Linux kernel (it is not
>> a Gentoo-specific subject) or opt to go with Genkernel instead.
> I'm getting paid for writing Linux Kernel code. Still, manual
> configuration in 2020 is not not necessary until you're doing something
> tricky. Especially when you use Gentoo as your daily driver.
>
>

I started using Gentoo back in 2003.  Before that, I used Mandrake for a
few months, got tired of the init thingy and the rpm dependency
problems.  I went from someone who knew almost nothing about Linux in
general, zero experience with Gentoo, to having to configure the kernel
by hand and make it run.  It took a couple tries to get one to boot. 
Then it took a few times to get one where everything was working.  Since
then, I've configured dozens of kernels with almost all of them booting
and working the first time.  It isn't that hard.  It can't be if I can
do it with such success.

Part of using Gentoo is controlling a whole lot of things by hand.  You
config and compile your own kernel, you config packages with USE flags
and other settings and then compile your own software.  It's what Gentoo
is all about.  If one only wants to use binaries like binary based
distros, then those distros may be a better fit.  While Gentoo does have
some tools to help newcomers, I've found them to be more of a hindrance
than a help.  As some know, I seek help here quite often but I also
learn something too.  Getting that to stick in this old brain is my
problem.  lol  At times I am able to help someone else with what I've
learned as well.  Gentoo requires learning.  It does very little to hold
your hand like other binary distros.

Over the last several years I've seen this Gentoo dying question.  As
someone else pointed out, we're still here, warts and all.  Yea, -dev
gets lively when someone steps on the toes of another dev but isn't that
true about anywhere?  Gentoo is somewhat of a niche distro.  It's for
people who want to be able to configure their system the way they want
it not what someone unknown dev somewhere likes.  That requires
attention and learning, the latter the most important but both are
important since things are always changing.

Gentoo has issues but I don't see it dying.  I suspect in a year or two
this question will pop up again.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:09 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yea, -dev gets lively when someone steps on the toes of another dev but isn't that true about anywhere?  Gentoo is somewhat of a niche distro.

I've commented on this elsewhere, but I think these two are related.
With more mainstream binary distros a lot of differences of opinion
result in forks.  Gentoo is really the only significant source-based
distro out there, and we're basically minimally viable as it is, so
there isn't much room for forking.  As a result we're just forced to
work these sorts of issues out and come up with ways to coexist.

Look at how many binary distros there are that are nearly identical
except for their default desktop environment, or what they use for
PID1, or some details around their QA/stabilization policy.  A distro
like debian is big enough that if a bunch of people get ticked off
with a decision you can fork it into two distros and they're each 3x
as large as we are.  Do that 47 times and we end up with the situation
we have in the linux world today.

Certainly Gentoo hasn't be completely without forks, but very few have
persisted, because we tend to try to let our users have it their way.
So, if one user wants systemd-everything and another user wants to
stick *systemd* in their INSTALL_MASK they don't have to have two
different sets of devs independently maintaining every single other
package to accomodate that preference.  Sure, not every option is
equally well-supported, but that usually comes down to
interest/manpower and rarely reflects some kind of top-down policy
decision to forbid something.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:09 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yea, -dev gets lively when someone steps on the toes of another dev but isn't that true about anywhere?  Gentoo is somewhat of a niche distro.
> I've commented on this elsewhere, but I think these two are related.
> With more mainstream binary distros a lot of differences of opinion
> result in forks.  Gentoo is really the only significant source-based
> distro out there, and we're basically minimally viable as it is, so
> there isn't much room for forking.  As a result we're just forced to
> work these sorts of issues out and come up with ways to coexist.
>
> Look at how many binary distros there are that are nearly identical
> except for their default desktop environment, or what they use for
> PID1, or some details around their QA/stabilization policy.  A distro
> like debian is big enough that if a bunch of people get ticked off
> with a decision you can fork it into two distros and they're each 3x
> as large as we are.  Do that 47 times and we end up with the situation
> we have in the linux world today.
>
> Certainly Gentoo hasn't be completely without forks, but very few have
> persisted, because we tend to try to let our users have it their way.
> So, if one user wants systemd-everything and another user wants to
> stick *systemd* in their INSTALL_MASK they don't have to have two
> different sets of devs independently maintaining every single other
> package to accomodate that preference.  Sure, not every option is
> equally well-supported, but that usually comes down to
> interest/manpower and rarely reflects some kind of top-down policy
> decision to forbid something.
>

When I said niche, I meant somewhat rare.  As you pointed out, Gentoo is
about the only source based distro available.  Pretty much everything
else is binary where you have few choices if any. I'm not sure if there
is another source based distro but I haven't looked.  I call it a niche
in what it provides but can also be a niche for what a user wants as well.

Since I been around a long while, I remember when -dev would be labeled
as not safe for work.  It was bad, really bad.  It made one glad that
they could only use keyboards instead of dueling pistols.  Then they
created moderators with people to enforce some rules.  It got better. 
Actually, a lot better.  Still, every once in a while, someone feels
someone else's foot on their toes and it gets a little tense. 
Eventually, it gets worked out and usually with a good result.  While I
tend to keep my anger in check, we all recall that hal thingy.  :-@  To
this day, I hate that thing.  Even tho I hated it, good things come from
it.  Eventually it was replaced with something . . . more sensible and
easier to work with.  I think these things make Gentoo stronger. 
Forking isn't really a option since it means a almost certain death of
the fork.  The only option, work toward a better solution, together.  I
monitor -dev so that I can see upcoming changes, like the switch to
python 3.7 that is coming soon.  It's interesting sometimes how a change
can cause fristion but generally ends up with a stronger Gentoo.  It
sort of forces people to work together even when they disagree.

This list is a lot like that.  How many times does a person ask how to
do something and get several different methods for doing it?  Some of
the time, the result is the same but the path there is different.  Each
one of those helps the person in need of help to learn something.  Heck,
I learn stuff all the time, keeping it in my head is difficult tho.  My
memory at times is bad enough that I created a text file with commands
that I just can't quite remember the details of.  Sometimes when someone
asks a question, I go take a peek to see if at some point it was
mentioned on this list.  If I find a close match, I post it.  Then
others post their methods.  In the end, a solution is found and we move
on to the next problem.  Same as -dev just different problems. 

I sometimes worry about Gentoo but it seems that every time things get
bumpy, something changes and Gentoo gets back to work and improves.  It
seems that is when a lot of good things happen.  While I don't want to
wish for those bumpy times, I do tend to like the part coming after
that.  :-D

Now if we can just get a decoder ring for the emerge error outputs.  :/ 
:-D

Dale

:-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:49 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Then they created moderators with people to enforce some rules.  It got better.  Actually, a lot better.

That is actually really good to hear.  The whole CoC/Proctors thing
has been a bit of a mess and incredibly contentious.  It has also been
mostly inactive, in part because for the most part these threads have
actually done a pretty good job of moderating themselves.  Maybe it is
because people fear moderation.  Maybe it is because nobody really
wants to have to see us have to deal with it.  Bugs get filed asking
for moderation, and maybe that is all it takes for the parties
involved to decide to cool things down.

As much as some seem to think otherwise, the reality is that most of
the Proctors really don't like kicking that hornets nest.  In any case
all Proctors actions are completely public in bugzilla so anybody can
see for themselves.  If you don't see much it is because there isn't
actually much to see...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:49 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Then they created moderators with people to enforce some rules.  It got better.  Actually, a lot better.
> That is actually really good to hear.  The whole CoC/Proctors thing
> has been a bit of a mess and incredibly contentious.  It has also been
> mostly inactive, in part because for the most part these threads have
> actually done a pretty good job of moderating themselves.  Maybe it is
> because people fear moderation.  Maybe it is because nobody really
> wants to have to see us have to deal with it.  Bugs get filed asking
> for moderation, and maybe that is all it takes for the parties
> involved to decide to cool things down.
>
> As much as some seem to think otherwise, the reality is that most of
> the Proctors really don't like kicking that hornets nest.  In any case
> all Proctors actions are completely public in bugzilla so anybody can
> see for themselves.  If you don't see much it is because there isn't
> actually much to see...
>

I admit, I don't monitor what they do much but I've seen a huge
improvement.  I moderated a political site for a few years.  Still have
access but health and life takes up a lot of time.  I always referred to
it as herding cats.  You can herd up pretty much any animal, cows, pigs,
sheep and the list goes on but herding cats is a tough thing to
accomplish.  After being a moderator that has to deal with things that
can be opinion with no one in the right or wrong, I know first hand how
difficult and thankless the job can be.  Still, without it, it gets bad
pretty fast.  I didn't like doing timeouts, banning and such either. 
Thing is, when it needed doing, I did it.  I was the lead moderator for
a good long while. 

I think instead of dying, Gentoo is stronger even if it involves fewer
people.  Sure, there is packages that need some attention but if they
are in demand, usually someone steps up and gives them the attention
they need to get back up to date. I'm not sure why people keep thinking
Gentoo is dying.  Sometimes I think it is more about the difference
between binary distros they are coming from and Gentoo being source
based than Gentoo actually dying.  When people consider switching to
Gentoo, it's different from what they expect.  They may need to research
what Gentoo is first.  Gentoo certainly doesn't hold a persons hand
during the install or even after the install.  Heck, I been around a
long time and it doesn't hold my hand even today. 

Compared to the bad times, -dev is like heaven today.  It was beyond
words to describe during its worst days.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[John Covici]

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:55:54 -0400,
Dale wrote:
> 
> [1  <text/plain; UTF-8 (8bit)>]
> Rich Freeman wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:49 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Then they created moderators with people to enforce some rules.  It got better.  Actually, a lot better.
> > That is actually really good to hear.  The whole CoC/Proctors thing
> > has been a bit of a mess and incredibly contentious.  It has also been
> > mostly inactive, in part because for the most part these threads have
> > actually done a pretty good job of moderating themselves.  Maybe it is
> > because people fear moderation.  Maybe it is because nobody really
> > wants to have to see us have to deal with it.  Bugs get filed asking
> > for moderation, and maybe that is all it takes for the parties
> > involved to decide to cool things down.
> >
> > As much as some seem to think otherwise, the reality is that most of
> > the Proctors really don't like kicking that hornets nest.  In any case
> > all Proctors actions are completely public in bugzilla so anybody can
> > see for themselves.  If you don't see much it is because there isn't
> > actually much to see...
> >
> 
> I admit, I don't monitor what they do much but I've seen a huge
> improvement.  I moderated a political site for a few years.  Still have
> access but health and life takes up a lot of time.  I always referred to
> it as herding cats.  You can herd up pretty much any animal, cows, pigs,
> sheep and the list goes on but herding cats is a tough thing to
> accomplish.  After being a moderator that has to deal with things that
> can be opinion with no one in the right or wrong, I know first hand how
> difficult and thankless the job can be.  Still, without it, it gets bad
> pretty fast.  I didn't like doing timeouts, banning and such either. 
> Thing is, when it needed doing, I did it.  I was the lead moderator for
> a good long while. 
> 
> I think instead of dying, Gentoo is stronger even if it involves fewer
> people.  Sure, there is packages that need some attention but if they
> are in demand, usually someone steps up and gives them the attention
> they need to get back up to date. I'm not sure why people keep thinking
> Gentoo is dying.  Sometimes I think it is more about the difference
> between binary distros they are coming from and Gentoo being source
> based than Gentoo actually dying.  When people consider switching to
> Gentoo, it's different from what they expect.  They may need to research
> what Gentoo is first.  Gentoo certainly doesn't hold a persons hand
> during the install or even after the install.  Heck, I been around a
> long time and it doesn't hold my hand even today. 
> 
> Compared to the bad times, -dev is like heaven today.  It was beyond
> words to describe during its worst days.
> 

I am seeing a lot more unmaintained packages -- at least in the ones I
have -- than there used to be and bugs going unanswered probably
because of that.  Not sure what to do about it, I don't have time to
get into doing this much, just keeping up with world updates is quite
time consuming all by itself.

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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John Covici wrote:
>
> I am seeing a lot more unmaintained packages -- at least in the ones I
> have -- than there used to be and bugs going unanswered probably
> because of that.  Not sure what to do about it, I don't have time to
> get into doing this much, just keeping up with world updates is quite
> time consuming all by itself.
>


That may be but the packages that are most used are likely maintained
and well maintained at that.  There are some old packages that haven't
been updated in years, upstream is dead or no one uses them much anymore
that are slowly being removed.  If one can't install them, no real point
in them being in the tree.  I might add, the switch from the much older
pythons are really forcing a house cleaning.  But, some packages are
just out of date and something new has taken their place.  Nothing new
there.  I'm sure this happens with every distro out there, even the paid
ones.

I follow -dev and have recently had to uninstall a package and install
something else that is newer and more up to date.  I saw a message about
that old package that seemed to stop working for me a good while ago. 
What I had still lurking about would sometimes crash and I didn't trust
it.  I used to use that as a GUI to manage LVM.  I use LVM a lot here. 
In that message was them removing the old package and recommending a
replacement I never heard of.  I installed it and it may actually be
better than the old software I used to use.  While the old package may
be gone, the new one seems to be more up to date, stable and appears to
have a better design.  Different for sure, I'll have to learn how the
GUI does its thing but could be better in the end. Since LVM has been
updated a good bit in the past year or so, that old software either
needed a lot of work or just use the newer software.

There are a lot of packages that are just not used by enough people to
maintain them anymore.  Some are being replaced with more up to date
packages.  There are lots of reasons for that.  If a package you use is
being removed, search -dev and look to see if there is a replacement
mentioned in the last rites message.  If it was removed, they almost
always include a replacement if there is one.  Sometimes another package
absorbs what the old package used to do. While at times -dev can get
quite busy, I'd be lost without it.  Things are mentioned there about
upcoming changes that I don't see mentioned anywhere else.  That
includes this list as well.  It's a great way to keep somewhat up to
date on what's going on.  One doesn't have to read every post either. 
After a while, you can tell by the subject line if that thread will be
anything you would be interested in.  Last rites, things about upgrades
and such get my attention.  I generally know when something big is going
to happen weeks or even months before it hits the tree.

If you want to share what packages you are missing out on, I'd be glad
to search my -dev archives and see if I can find something that may help. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[John Covici]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 04:15:18 -0400,
Dale wrote:
> 
> [1  <text/plain; UTF-8 (8bit)>]
> John Covici wrote:
> >
> > I am seeing a lot more unmaintained packages -- at least in the ones I
> > have -- than there used to be and bugs going unanswered probably
> > because of that.  Not sure what to do about it, I don't have time to
> > get into doing this much, just keeping up with world updates is quite
> > time consuming all by itself.
> >
> 
> 
> That may be but the packages that are most used are likely maintained
> and well maintained at that.  There are some old packages that haven't
> been updated in years, upstream is dead or no one uses them much anymore
> that are slowly being removed.  If one can't install them, no real point
> in them being in the tree.  I might add, the switch from the much older
> pythons are really forcing a house cleaning.  But, some packages are
> just out of date and something new has taken their place.  Nothing new
> there.  I'm sure this happens with every distro out there, even the paid
> ones.
> 
> I follow -dev and have recently had to uninstall a package and install
> something else that is newer and more up to date.  I saw a message about
> that old package that seemed to stop working for me a good while ago. 
> What I had still lurking about would sometimes crash and I didn't trust
> it.  I used to use that as a GUI to manage LVM.  I use LVM a lot here. 
> In that message was them removing the old package and recommending a
> replacement I never heard of.  I installed it and it may actually be
> better than the old software I used to use.  While the old package may
> be gone, the new one seems to be more up to date, stable and appears to
> have a better design.  Different for sure, I'll have to learn how the
> GUI does its thing but could be better in the end. Since LVM has been
> updated a good bit in the past year or so, that old software either
> needed a lot of work or just use the newer software.
> 
> There are a lot of packages that are just not used by enough people to
> maintain them anymore.  Some are being replaced with more up to date
> packages.  There are lots of reasons for that.  If a package you use is
> being removed, search -dev and look to see if there is a replacement
> mentioned in the last rites message.  If it was removed, they almost
> always include a replacement if there is one.  Sometimes another package
> absorbs what the old package used to do. While at times -dev can get
> quite busy, I'd be lost without it.  Things are mentioned there about
> upcoming changes that I don't see mentioned anywhere else.  That
> includes this list as well.  It's a great way to keep somewhat up to
> date on what's going on.  One doesn't have to read every post either. 
> After a while, you can tell by the subject line if that thread will be
> anything you would be interested in.  Last rites, things about upgrades
> and such get my attention.  I generally know when something big is going
> to happen weeks or even months before it hits the tree.
> 
> If you want to share what packages you are missing out on, I'd be glad
> to search my -dev archives and see if I can find something that may help. 

Well, teamviewer is the worst -- teamviewer 15 won't emerge because it
will overwrite files belonging to the previous version (!da).  Someone
even slotted the thing, but still no joy.  I filed a bug, but no
response.  Also, although I don't think there is a new version, but
sendmail seens to be unmaintained.
Also, ant-core --  there is a bug against that, but no fix as yet.

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5230 bytes --]

John Covici wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 04:15:18 -0400,
> Dale wrote:
>> [1  <text/plain; UTF-8 (8bit)>]
>> John Covici wrote:
>>> I am seeing a lot more unmaintained packages -- at least in the ones I
>>> have -- than there used to be and bugs going unanswered probably
>>> because of that.  Not sure what to do about it, I don't have time to
>>> get into doing this much, just keeping up with world updates is quite
>>> time consuming all by itself.
>>>
>>
>> That may be but the packages that are most used are likely maintained
>> and well maintained at that.  There are some old packages that haven't
>> been updated in years, upstream is dead or no one uses them much anymore
>> that are slowly being removed.  If one can't install them, no real point
>> in them being in the tree.  I might add, the switch from the much older
>> pythons are really forcing a house cleaning.  But, some packages are
>> just out of date and something new has taken their place.  Nothing new
>> there.  I'm sure this happens with every distro out there, even the paid
>> ones.
>>
>> I follow -dev and have recently had to uninstall a package and install
>> something else that is newer and more up to date.  I saw a message about
>> that old package that seemed to stop working for me a good while ago. 
>> What I had still lurking about would sometimes crash and I didn't trust
>> it.  I used to use that as a GUI to manage LVM.  I use LVM a lot here. 
>> In that message was them removing the old package and recommending a
>> replacement I never heard of.  I installed it and it may actually be
>> better than the old software I used to use.  While the old package may
>> be gone, the new one seems to be more up to date, stable and appears to
>> have a better design.  Different for sure, I'll have to learn how the
>> GUI does its thing but could be better in the end. Since LVM has been
>> updated a good bit in the past year or so, that old software either
>> needed a lot of work or just use the newer software.
>>
>> There are a lot of packages that are just not used by enough people to
>> maintain them anymore.  Some are being replaced with more up to date
>> packages.  There are lots of reasons for that.  If a package you use is
>> being removed, search -dev and look to see if there is a replacement
>> mentioned in the last rites message.  If it was removed, they almost
>> always include a replacement if there is one.  Sometimes another package
>> absorbs what the old package used to do. While at times -dev can get
>> quite busy, I'd be lost without it.  Things are mentioned there about
>> upcoming changes that I don't see mentioned anywhere else.  That
>> includes this list as well.  It's a great way to keep somewhat up to
>> date on what's going on.  One doesn't have to read every post either. 
>> After a while, you can tell by the subject line if that thread will be
>> anything you would be interested in.  Last rites, things about upgrades
>> and such get my attention.  I generally know when something big is going
>> to happen weeks or even months before it hits the tree.
>>
>> If you want to share what packages you are missing out on, I'd be glad
>> to search my -dev archives and see if I can find something that may help. 
> Well, teamviewer is the worst -- teamviewer 15 won't emerge because it
> will overwrite files belonging to the previous version (!da).  Someone
> even slotted the thing, but still no joy.  I filed a bug, but no
> response.  Also, although I don't think there is a new version, but
> sendmail seens to be unmaintained.
> Also, ant-core --  there is a bug against that, but no fix as yet.
>


I did a search on the forums for teamview but didn't find that problem. 
Did you perhaps install it without using portage at some point?  If not,
can you try to emerge it and post the failure here, a new thread might
be best.  I bet there is someone here who can fix it even if they don't
use that package.  Generally, a file collision for one package is
handled much like any other package.  It's been a long time and emerge
has changed a LOT but the last time I ran into this, I unmerged the
package and then re-emerged it.

Sendmail.  I found this:


root@fireball / # cat
/var/cache/portage/tree/mail-mta/sendmail/metadata.xml
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE pkgmetadata SYSTEM "http://www.gentoo.org/dtd/metadata.dtd">
<pkgmetadata>
        <!-- maintainer-needed -->
</pkgmetadata>
root@fireball / #


It seems to be maintainer needed at the moment.  Most likely a dev
retired or was otherwise unable to maintain it any longer.  I'm not sure
who to contact to see if it can be nudged into action tho. You may can
talk to a dev, Rich is active on here, and see if he knows or is willing
to post on -dev about it needing attention.  Given its widespread use,
surely someone who uses it can step up and maintain it. 

Ant-core is maintained by the java team.  I'm not sure what their status
is at the moment but since it still exists, I'm sure they are active. 
I've seen posts in the past that the java team is a bit slow, lots of
work and not enough time in the day.  Might just take a little time.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5998 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[John Covici]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:53:24 -0400,
Dale wrote:
> 
> [1  <text/plain; UTF-8 (8bit)>]
> John Covici wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 04:15:18 -0400,
> > Dale wrote:
> >> [1  <text/plain; UTF-8 (8bit)>]
> >> John Covici wrote:
> >>> I am seeing a lot more unmaintained packages -- at least in the ones I
> >>> have -- than there used to be and bugs going unanswered probably
> >>> because of that.  Not sure what to do about it, I don't have time to
> >>> get into doing this much, just keeping up with world updates is quite
> >>> time consuming all by itself.
> >>>
> >>
> >> That may be but the packages that are most used are likely maintained
> >> and well maintained at that.  There are some old packages that haven't
> >> been updated in years, upstream is dead or no one uses them much anymore
> >> that are slowly being removed.  If one can't install them, no real point
> >> in them being in the tree.  I might add, the switch from the much older
> >> pythons are really forcing a house cleaning.  But, some packages are
> >> just out of date and something new has taken their place.  Nothing new
> >> there.  I'm sure this happens with every distro out there, even the paid
> >> ones.
> >>
> >> I follow -dev and have recently had to uninstall a package and install
> >> something else that is newer and more up to date.  I saw a message about
> >> that old package that seemed to stop working for me a good while ago. 
> >> What I had still lurking about would sometimes crash and I didn't trust
> >> it.  I used to use that as a GUI to manage LVM.  I use LVM a lot here. 
> >> In that message was them removing the old package and recommending a
> >> replacement I never heard of.  I installed it and it may actually be
> >> better than the old software I used to use.  While the old package may
> >> be gone, the new one seems to be more up to date, stable and appears to
> >> have a better design.  Different for sure, I'll have to learn how the
> >> GUI does its thing but could be better in the end. Since LVM has been
> >> updated a good bit in the past year or so, that old software either
> >> needed a lot of work or just use the newer software.
> >>
> >> There are a lot of packages that are just not used by enough people to
> >> maintain them anymore.  Some are being replaced with more up to date
> >> packages.  There are lots of reasons for that.  If a package you use is
> >> being removed, search -dev and look to see if there is a replacement
> >> mentioned in the last rites message.  If it was removed, they almost
> >> always include a replacement if there is one.  Sometimes another package
> >> absorbs what the old package used to do. While at times -dev can get
> >> quite busy, I'd be lost without it.  Things are mentioned there about
> >> upcoming changes that I don't see mentioned anywhere else.  That
> >> includes this list as well.  It's a great way to keep somewhat up to
> >> date on what's going on.  One doesn't have to read every post either. 
> >> After a while, you can tell by the subject line if that thread will be
> >> anything you would be interested in.  Last rites, things about upgrades
> >> and such get my attention.  I generally know when something big is going
> >> to happen weeks or even months before it hits the tree.
> >>
> >> If you want to share what packages you are missing out on, I'd be glad
> >> to search my -dev archives and see if I can find something that may help. 
> > Well, teamviewer is the worst -- teamviewer 15 won't emerge because it
> > will overwrite files belonging to the previous version (!da).  Someone
> > even slotted the thing, but still no joy.  I filed a bug, but no
> > response.  Also, although I don't think there is a new version, but
> > sendmail seens to be unmaintained.
> > Also, ant-core --  there is a bug against that, but no fix as yet.
> >
> 
> 
> I did a search on the forums for teamview but didn't find that problem. 
> Did you perhaps install it without using portage at some point?  If not,
> can you try to emerge it and post the failure here, a new thread might
> be best.  I bet there is someone here who can fix it even if they don't
> use that package.  Generally, a file collision for one package is
> handled much like any other package.  It's been a long time and emerge
> has changed a LOT but the last time I ran into this, I unmerged the
> package and then re-emerged it.
> 
> Sendmail.  I found this:
> 
> 
> root@fireball / # cat
> /var/cache/portage/tree/mail-mta/sendmail/metadata.xml
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
> <!DOCTYPE pkgmetadata SYSTEM "http://www.gentoo.org/dtd/metadata.dtd">
> <pkgmetadata>
>         <!-- maintainer-needed -->
> </pkgmetadata>
> root@fireball / #
> 
> 
> It seems to be maintainer needed at the moment.  Most likely a dev
> retired or was otherwise unable to maintain it any longer.  I'm not sure
> who to contact to see if it can be nudged into action tho. You may can
> talk to a dev, Rich is active on here, and see if he knows or is willing
> to post on -dev about it needing attention.  Given its widespread use,
> surely someone who uses it can step up and maintain it. 
> 
> Ant-core is maintained by the java team.  I'm not sure what their status
> is at the moment but since it still exists, I'm sure they are active. 
> I've seen posts in the past that the java team is a bit slow, lots of
> work and not enough time in the day.  Might just take a little time.
> 

Here is the relevant section from teamviewer build:
 * checking 102 files for package collisions
  * This package will overwrite one or more files that may belong to
  other
   * packages (see list below). You can use a command such as
   `portageq
    * owners / <filename>` to identify the installed package that owns
    a
     * file. If portageq reports that only one package owns a file
	then do
	 * NOT file a bug report. A bug report is only useful if it
	 identifies at
	  * least two or more packages that are known to install the same
	  file(s).
	   * If a collision occurs and you can not explain where the file
	   came from
	    * then you should simply ignore the collision since there is
	    not enough
	     * information to determine if a real problem exists. Please
		do NOT file
		 * a bug report at https://bugs.gentoo.org/ unless you
		 report exactly
		  * which two packages install the same file(s). See
		   * https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Knowledge_Base:Blockers
		   for tips on how
		    * to solve the problem. And once again, please do NOT
		    file a bug report
		     * unless you have completely understood the above
			message.
			 *
			  * Detected file collision(s):
			   *
			    *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.service
			     *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.Desktop.service
				 *   /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.policy
				  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/TeamViewer.png
				   *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/TeamViewer.png
				    *
			     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/TeamViewer.png
				 *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/TeamViewer.png
				  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/TeamViewer.png
				   *   /lib/systemd/system/teamviewerd.service
				    *   /opt/bin/teamviewer
				     *   /opt/bin/teamviewerd
					 *
					  * Searching all installed packages for file
                             collisions...
					     *
						 * Press Ctrl-C to Stop
						  *
						   * net-misc/teamviewer-14.7.1965:14::gentoo
						    *   /lib/systemd/system/teamviewerd.service
						     *   /opt/bin/teamviewer
							 *   /opt/bin/teamviewerd
							  *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.Desktop.service
							   *
						    *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.service
						     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/TeamViewer.png
							 *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/TeamViewer.png
							  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/TeamViewer.png
							   *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/TeamViewer.png
							    *
						     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/TeamViewer.png
							 *   /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.policy
							  *
							   * Package
                                        'net-misc/teamviewer-15.4.4445'
                                        NOT merged due to file
								 * collisions. If necessary,
                                        refer to your elog messages
                                        for the whole
								 * content of the above
                                        message.

How do ebuilds normally handle such a thing -- don't all new versions
have this situation?

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6062 bytes --]

John Covici wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:53:24 -0400,
> Dale wrote:
>
>> I did a search on the forums for teamview but didn't find that problem. 
>> Did you perhaps install it without using portage at some point?  If not,
>> can you try to emerge it and post the failure here, a new thread might
>> be best.  I bet there is someone here who can fix it even if they don't
>> use that package.  Generally, a file collision for one package is
>> handled much like any other package.  It's been a long time and emerge
>> has changed a LOT but the last time I ran into this, I unmerged the
>> package and then re-emerged it.
>>
>> Sendmail.  I found this:
>>
>>
>> root@fireball / # cat
>> /var/cache/portage/tree/mail-mta/sendmail/metadata.xml
>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
>> <!DOCTYPE pkgmetadata SYSTEM "http://www.gentoo.org/dtd/metadata.dtd">
>> <pkgmetadata>
>>         <!-- maintainer-needed -->
>> </pkgmetadata>
>> root@fireball / #
>>
>>
>> It seems to be maintainer needed at the moment.  Most likely a dev
>> retired or was otherwise unable to maintain it any longer.  I'm not sure
>> who to contact to see if it can be nudged into action tho. You may can
>> talk to a dev, Rich is active on here, and see if he knows or is willing
>> to post on -dev about it needing attention.  Given its widespread use,
>> surely someone who uses it can step up and maintain it. 
>>
>> Ant-core is maintained by the java team.  I'm not sure what their status
>> is at the moment but since it still exists, I'm sure they are active. 
>> I've seen posts in the past that the java team is a bit slow, lots of
>> work and not enough time in the day.  Might just take a little time.
>>
> Here is the relevant section from teamviewer build:
>  * checking 102 files for package collisions
>   * This package will overwrite one or more files that may belong to
>   other
>    * packages (see list below). You can use a command such as
>    `portageq
>     * owners / <filename>` to identify the installed package that owns
>     a
>      * file. If portageq reports that only one package owns a file
> 	then do
> 	 * NOT file a bug report. A bug report is only useful if it
> 	 identifies at
> 	  * least two or more packages that are known to install the same
> 	  file(s).
> 	   * If a collision occurs and you can not explain where the file
> 	   came from
> 	    * then you should simply ignore the collision since there is
> 	    not enough
> 	     * information to determine if a real problem exists. Please
> 		do NOT file
> 		 * a bug report at https://bugs.gentoo.org/ unless you
> 		 report exactly
> 		  * which two packages install the same file(s). See
> 		   * https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Knowledge_Base:Blockers
> 		   for tips on how
> 		    * to solve the problem. And once again, please do NOT
> 		    file a bug report
> 		     * unless you have completely understood the above
> 			message.
> 			 *
> 			  * Detected file collision(s):
> 			   *
> 			    *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.service
> 			     *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.Desktop.service
> 				 *   /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.policy
> 				  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/TeamViewer.png
> 				   *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/TeamViewer.png
> 				    *
> 			     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/TeamViewer.png
> 				 *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/TeamViewer.png
> 				  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/TeamViewer.png
> 				   *   /lib/systemd/system/teamviewerd.service
> 				    *   /opt/bin/teamviewer
> 				     *   /opt/bin/teamviewerd
> 					 *
> 					  * Searching all installed packages for file
>                              collisions...
> 					     *
> 						 * Press Ctrl-C to Stop
> 						  *
> 						   * net-misc/teamviewer-14.7.1965:14::gentoo
> 						    *   /lib/systemd/system/teamviewerd.service
> 						     *   /opt/bin/teamviewer
> 							 *   /opt/bin/teamviewerd
> 							  *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.Desktop.service
> 							   *
> 						    *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.service
> 						     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/TeamViewer.png
> 							 *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/TeamViewer.png
> 							  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/TeamViewer.png
> 							   *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/TeamViewer.png
> 							    *
> 						     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/TeamViewer.png
> 							 *   /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.policy
> 							  *
> 							   * Package
>                                         'net-misc/teamviewer-15.4.4445'
>                                         NOT merged due to file
> 								 * collisions. If necessary,
>                                         refer to your elog messages
>                                         for the whole
> 								 * content of the above
>                                         message.
>
> How do ebuilds normally handle such a thing -- don't all new versions
> have this situation?
>

It does but it seems portage thinks the files belong to another
package.  I'm not sure why that is tho.  You may can use the portageq
command it mentions to see what that is.  I suspect it will be a
interesting result.  I think I've only ran into this once.  There is a
way to override it but I can't recall how it's done. 

If it were me, I'd manually remove the files and emerge the package IF
they do not belong to another package.  Once they are gone, it won't be
a problem.  Maybe this is just a quirk or something that is a one time
deal. 

I think this is how to disable this but I'd be sure it is safe before
doing this. 

FEATURES="-collision-protect" emerge -a teamviewer

Make sure the spelling is correct there.  Again, make sure those don't
belong to another package that will be broken.  In theory, this
shouldn't happen to begin with. 

Hope that gives you some options.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6770 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[John Covici]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:04:24 -0400,
Dale wrote:
> 
> [1  <text/plain; UTF-8 (8bit)>]
> John Covici wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:53:24 -0400,
> > Dale wrote:
> >
> >> I did a search on the forums for teamview but didn't find that problem. 
> >> Did you perhaps install it without using portage at some point?  If not,
> >> can you try to emerge it and post the failure here, a new thread might
> >> be best.  I bet there is someone here who can fix it even if they don't
> >> use that package.  Generally, a file collision for one package is
> >> handled much like any other package.  It's been a long time and emerge
> >> has changed a LOT but the last time I ran into this, I unmerged the
> >> package and then re-emerged it.
> >>
> >> Sendmail.  I found this:
> >>
> >>
> >> root@fireball / # cat
> >> /var/cache/portage/tree/mail-mta/sendmail/metadata.xml
> >> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
> >> <!DOCTYPE pkgmetadata SYSTEM "http://www.gentoo.org/dtd/metadata.dtd">
> >> <pkgmetadata>
> >>         <!-- maintainer-needed -->
> >> </pkgmetadata>
> >> root@fireball / #
> >>
> >>
> >> It seems to be maintainer needed at the moment.  Most likely a dev
> >> retired or was otherwise unable to maintain it any longer.  I'm not sure
> >> who to contact to see if it can be nudged into action tho. You may can
> >> talk to a dev, Rich is active on here, and see if he knows or is willing
> >> to post on -dev about it needing attention.  Given its widespread use,
> >> surely someone who uses it can step up and maintain it. 
> >>
> >> Ant-core is maintained by the java team.  I'm not sure what their status
> >> is at the moment but since it still exists, I'm sure they are active. 
> >> I've seen posts in the past that the java team is a bit slow, lots of
> >> work and not enough time in the day.  Might just take a little time.
> >>
> > Here is the relevant section from teamviewer build:
> >  * checking 102 files for package collisions
> >   * This package will overwrite one or more files that may belong to
> >   other
> >    * packages (see list below). You can use a command such as
> >    `portageq
> >     * owners / <filename>` to identify the installed package that owns
> >     a
> >      * file. If portageq reports that only one package owns a file
> > 	then do
> > 	 * NOT file a bug report. A bug report is only useful if it
> > 	 identifies at
> > 	  * least two or more packages that are known to install the same
> > 	  file(s).
> > 	   * If a collision occurs and you can not explain where the file
> > 	   came from
> > 	    * then you should simply ignore the collision since there is
> > 	    not enough
> > 	     * information to determine if a real problem exists. Please
> > 		do NOT file
> > 		 * a bug report at https://bugs.gentoo.org/ unless you
> > 		 report exactly
> > 		  * which two packages install the same file(s). See
> > 		   * https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Knowledge_Base:Blockers
> > 		   for tips on how
> > 		    * to solve the problem. And once again, please do NOT
> > 		    file a bug report
> > 		     * unless you have completely understood the above
> > 			message.
> > 			 *
> > 			  * Detected file collision(s):
> > 			   *
> > 			    *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.service
> > 			     *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.Desktop.service
> > 				 *   /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.policy
> > 				  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/TeamViewer.png
> > 				   *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/TeamViewer.png
> > 				    *
> > 			     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/TeamViewer.png
> > 				 *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/TeamViewer.png
> > 				  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/TeamViewer.png
> > 				   *   /lib/systemd/system/teamviewerd.service
> > 				    *   /opt/bin/teamviewer
> > 				     *   /opt/bin/teamviewerd
> > 					 *
> > 					  * Searching all installed packages for file
> >                              collisions...
> > 					     *
> > 						 * Press Ctrl-C to Stop
> > 						  *
> > 						   * net-misc/teamviewer-14.7.1965:14::gentoo
> > 						    *   /lib/systemd/system/teamviewerd.service
> > 						     *   /opt/bin/teamviewer
> > 							 *   /opt/bin/teamviewerd
> > 							  *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.Desktop.service
> > 							   *
> > 						    *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.service
> > 						     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/TeamViewer.png
> > 							 *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/TeamViewer.png
> > 							  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/TeamViewer.png
> > 							   *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/TeamViewer.png
> > 							    *
> > 						     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/TeamViewer.png
> > 							 *   /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.policy
> > 							  *
> > 							   * Package
> >                                         'net-misc/teamviewer-15.4.4445'
> >                                         NOT merged due to file
> > 								 * collisions. If necessary,
> >                                         refer to your elog messages
> >                                         for the whole
> > 								 * content of the above
> >                                         message.
> >
> > How do ebuilds normally handle such a thing -- don't all new versions
> > have this situation?
> >
> 
> It does but it seems portage thinks the files belong to another
> package.  I'm not sure why that is tho.  You may can use the portageq
> command it mentions to see what that is.  I suspect it will be a
> interesting result.  I think I've only ran into this once.  There is a
> way to override it but I can't recall how it's done. 
> 
> If it were me, I'd manually remove the files and emerge the package IF
> they do not belong to another package.  Once they are gone, it won't be
> a problem.  Maybe this is just a quirk or something that is a one time
> deal. 
> 
> I think this is how to disable this but I'd be sure it is safe before
> doing this. 
> 
> FEATURES="-collision-protect" emerge -a teamviewer
> 
> Make sure the spelling is correct there.  Again, make sure those don't
> belong to another package that will be broken.  In theory, this
> shouldn't happen to begin with. 
> 
> Hope that gives you some options.

The reason I did not try any of those is because the package which
owns the files is a previous version of the same package!!  This
disturbs me that portage does not igure this out all by itself.

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Jack]

On 4/22/20 11:20 AM, John Covici wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:04:24 -0400,
> Dale wrote:
>> [1  <text/plain; UTF-8 (8bit)>]
>> John Covici wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:53:24 -0400,
>>> Dale wrote:
>>>
>>>> I did a search on the forums for teamview but didn't find that problem.
>>>> Did you perhaps install it without using portage at some point?  If not,
>>>> can you try to emerge it and post the failure here, a new thread might
>>>> be best.  I bet there is someone here who can fix it even if they don't
>>>> use that package.  Generally, a file collision for one package is
>>>> handled much like any other package.  It's been a long time and emerge
>>>> has changed a LOT but the last time I ran into this, I unmerged the
>>>> package and then re-emerged it.
>>>>
>>>> Sendmail.  I found this:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> root@fireball / # cat
>>>> /var/cache/portage/tree/mail-mta/sendmail/metadata.xml
>>>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
>>>> <!DOCTYPE pkgmetadata SYSTEM "http://www.gentoo.org/dtd/metadata.dtd">
>>>> <pkgmetadata>
>>>>          <!-- maintainer-needed -->
>>>> </pkgmetadata>
>>>> root@fireball / #
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems to be maintainer needed at the moment.  Most likely a dev
>>>> retired or was otherwise unable to maintain it any longer.  I'm not sure
>>>> who to contact to see if it can be nudged into action tho. You may can
>>>> talk to a dev, Rich is active on here, and see if he knows or is willing
>>>> to post on -dev about it needing attention.  Given its widespread use,
>>>> surely someone who uses it can step up and maintain it.
>>>>
>>>> Ant-core is maintained by the java team.  I'm not sure what their status
>>>> is at the moment but since it still exists, I'm sure they are active.
>>>> I've seen posts in the past that the java team is a bit slow, lots of
>>>> work and not enough time in the day.  Might just take a little time.
>>>>
>>> Here is the relevant section from teamviewer build:
>>>   * checking 102 files for package collisions
>>>    * This package will overwrite one or more files that may belong to
>>>    other
>>>     * packages (see list below). You can use a command such as
>>>     `portageq
>>>      * owners / <filename>` to identify the installed package that owns
>>>      a
>>>       * file. If portageq reports that only one package owns a file
>>> 	then do
>>> 	 * NOT file a bug report. A bug report is only useful if it
>>> 	 identifies at
>>> 	  * least two or more packages that are known to install the same
>>> 	  file(s).
>>> 	   * If a collision occurs and you can not explain where the file
>>> 	   came from
>>> 	    * then you should simply ignore the collision since there is
>>> 	    not enough
>>> 	     * information to determine if a real problem exists. Please
>>> 		do NOT file
>>> 		 * a bug report at https://bugs.gentoo.org/ unless you
>>> 		 report exactly
>>> 		  * which two packages install the same file(s). See
>>> 		   * https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Knowledge_Base:Blockers
>>> 		   for tips on how
>>> 		    * to solve the problem. And once again, please do NOT
>>> 		    file a bug report
>>> 		     * unless you have completely understood the above
>>> 			message.
>>> 			 *
>>> 			  * Detected file collision(s):
>>> 			   *
>>> 			    *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.service
>>> 			     *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.Desktop.service
>>> 				 *   /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.policy
>>> 				  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/TeamViewer.png
>>> 				   *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/TeamViewer.png
>>> 				    *
>>> 			     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/TeamViewer.png
>>> 				 *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/TeamViewer.png
>>> 				  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/TeamViewer.png
>>> 				   *   /lib/systemd/system/teamviewerd.service
>>> 				    *   /opt/bin/teamviewer
>>> 				     *   /opt/bin/teamviewerd
>>> 					 *
>>> 					  * Searching all installed packages for file
>>>                               collisions...
>>> 					     *
>>> 						 * Press Ctrl-C to Stop
>>> 						  *
>>> 						   * net-misc/teamviewer-14.7.1965:14::gentoo
>>> 						    *   /lib/systemd/system/teamviewerd.service
>>> 						     *   /opt/bin/teamviewer
>>> 							 *   /opt/bin/teamviewerd
>>> 							  *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.Desktop.service
>>> 							   *
>>> 						    *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.service
>>> 						     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/TeamViewer.png
>>> 							 *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/TeamViewer.png
>>> 							  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/TeamViewer.png
>>> 							   *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/TeamViewer.png
>>> 							    *
>>> 						     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/TeamViewer.png
>>> 							 *   /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.policy
>>> 							  *
>>> 							   * Package
>>>                                          'net-misc/teamviewer-15.4.4445'
>>>                                          NOT merged due to file
>>> 								 * collisions. If necessary,
>>>                                          refer to your elog messages
>>>                                          for the whole
>>> 								 * content of the above
>>>                                          message.
>>>
>>> How do ebuilds normally handle such a thing -- don't all new versions
>>> have this situation?
>>>
>> It does but it seems portage thinks the files belong to another
>> package.  I'm not sure why that is tho.  You may can use the portageq
>> command it mentions to see what that is.  I suspect it will be a
>> interesting result.  I think I've only ran into this once.  There is a
>> way to override it but I can't recall how it's done.
>>
>> If it were me, I'd manually remove the files and emerge the package IF
>> they do not belong to another package.  Once they are gone, it won't be
>> a problem.  Maybe this is just a quirk or something that is a one time
>> deal.
>>
>> I think this is how to disable this but I'd be sure it is safe before
>> doing this.
>>
>> FEATURES="-collision-protect" emerge -a teamviewer
>>
>> Make sure the spelling is correct there.  Again, make sure those don't
>> belong to another package that will be broken.  In theory, this
>> shouldn't happen to begin with.
>>
>> Hope that gives you some options.
> The reason I did not try any of those is because the package which
> owns the files is a previous version of the same package!!  This
> disturbs me that portage does not igure this out all by itself.

How did you determine that?  Does portage agree with that statement?  Is 
it the same category and package?  Was the previous version installed by 
portage?

One possible approach would be to quickpg the installed version, then 
unmerge it and try the new emerge again.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[John Covici]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:26:20 -0400,
Jack wrote:
> 
> 
> On 4/22/20 11:20 AM, John Covici wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:04:24 -0400,
> > Dale wrote:
> >> [1  <text/plain; UTF-8 (8bit)>]
> >> John Covici wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:53:24 -0400,
> >>> Dale wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> I did a search on the forums for teamview but didn't find that problem.
> >>>> Did you perhaps install it without using portage at some point?  If not,
> >>>> can you try to emerge it and post the failure here, a new thread might
> >>>> be best.  I bet there is someone here who can fix it even if they don't
> >>>> use that package.  Generally, a file collision for one package is
> >>>> handled much like any other package.  It's been a long time and emerge
> >>>> has changed a LOT but the last time I ran into this, I unmerged the
> >>>> package and then re-emerged it.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Sendmail.  I found this:
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> root@fireball / # cat
> >>>> /var/cache/portage/tree/mail-mta/sendmail/metadata.xml
> >>>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
> >>>> <!DOCTYPE pkgmetadata SYSTEM "http://www.gentoo.org/dtd/metadata.dtd">
> >>>> <pkgmetadata>
> >>>>          <!-- maintainer-needed -->
> >>>> </pkgmetadata>
> >>>> root@fireball / #
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> It seems to be maintainer needed at the moment.  Most likely a dev
> >>>> retired or was otherwise unable to maintain it any longer.  I'm not sure
> >>>> who to contact to see if it can be nudged into action tho. You may can
> >>>> talk to a dev, Rich is active on here, and see if he knows or is willing
> >>>> to post on -dev about it needing attention.  Given its widespread use,
> >>>> surely someone who uses it can step up and maintain it.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Ant-core is maintained by the java team.  I'm not sure what their status
> >>>> is at the moment but since it still exists, I'm sure they are active.
> >>>> I've seen posts in the past that the java team is a bit slow, lots of
> >>>> work and not enough time in the day.  Might just take a little time.
> >>>> 
> >>> Here is the relevant section from teamviewer build:
> >>>   * checking 102 files for package collisions
> >>>    * This package will overwrite one or more files that may belong to
> >>>    other
> >>>     * packages (see list below). You can use a command such as
> >>>     `portageq
> >>>      * owners / <filename>` to identify the installed package that owns
> >>>      a
> >>>       * file. If portageq reports that only one package owns a file
> >>> 	then do
> >>> 	 * NOT file a bug report. A bug report is only useful if it
> >>> 	 identifies at
> >>> 	  * least two or more packages that are known to install the same
> >>> 	  file(s).
> >>> 	   * If a collision occurs and you can not explain where the file
> >>> 	   came from
> >>> 	    * then you should simply ignore the collision since there is
> >>> 	    not enough
> >>> 	     * information to determine if a real problem exists. Please
> >>> 		do NOT file
> >>> 		 * a bug report at https://bugs.gentoo.org/ unless you
> >>> 		 report exactly
> >>> 		  * which two packages install the same file(s). See
> >>> 		   * https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Knowledge_Base:Blockers
> >>> 		   for tips on how
> >>> 		    * to solve the problem. And once again, please do NOT
> >>> 		    file a bug report
> >>> 		     * unless you have completely understood the above
> >>> 			message.
> >>> 			 *
> >>> 			  * Detected file collision(s):
> >>> 			   *
> >>> 			    *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.service
> >>> 			     *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.Desktop.service
> >>> 				 *   /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.policy
> >>> 				  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/TeamViewer.png
> >>> 				   *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/TeamViewer.png
> >>> 				    *
> >>> 			     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/TeamViewer.png
> >>> 				 *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/TeamViewer.png
> >>> 				  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/TeamViewer.png
> >>> 				   *   /lib/systemd/system/teamviewerd.service
> >>> 				    *   /opt/bin/teamviewer
> >>> 				     *   /opt/bin/teamviewerd
> >>> 					 *
> >>> 					  * Searching all installed packages for file
> >>>                               collisions...
> >>> 					     *
> >>> 						 * Press Ctrl-C to Stop
> >>> 						  *
> >>> 						   * net-misc/teamviewer-14.7.1965:14::gentoo
> >>> 						    *   /lib/systemd/system/teamviewerd.service
> >>> 						     *   /opt/bin/teamviewer
> >>> 							 *   /opt/bin/teamviewerd
> >>> 							  *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.Desktop.service
> >>> 							   *
> >>> 						    *   /usr/share/dbus-1/services/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.service
> >>> 						     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/TeamViewer.png
> >>> 							 *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/24x24/apps/TeamViewer.png
> >>> 							  *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/TeamViewer.png
> >>> 							   *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/TeamViewer.png
> >>> 							    *
> >>> 						     *   /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/TeamViewer.png
> >>> 							 *   /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/com.teamviewer.TeamViewer.policy
> >>> 							  *
> >>> 							   * Package
> >>>                                          'net-misc/teamviewer-15.4.4445'
> >>>                                          NOT merged due to file
> >>> 								 * collisions. If necessary,
> >>>                                          refer to your elog messages
> >>>                                          for the whole
> >>> 								 * content of the above
> >>>                                          message.
> >>> 
> >>> How do ebuilds normally handle such a thing -- don't all new versions
> >>> have this situation?
> >>> 
> >> It does but it seems portage thinks the files belong to another
> >> package.  I'm not sure why that is tho.  You may can use the portageq
> >> command it mentions to see what that is.  I suspect it will be a
> >> interesting result.  I think I've only ran into this once.  There is a
> >> way to override it but I can't recall how it's done.
> >> 
> >> If it were me, I'd manually remove the files and emerge the package IF
> >> they do not belong to another package.  Once they are gone, it won't be
> >> a problem.  Maybe this is just a quirk or something that is a one time
> >> deal.
> >> 
> >> I think this is how to disable this but I'd be sure it is safe before
> >> doing this.
> >> 
> >> FEATURES="-collision-protect" emerge -a teamviewer
> >> 
> >> Make sure the spelling is correct there.  Again, make sure those don't
> >> belong to another package that will be broken.  In theory, this
> >> shouldn't happen to begin with.
> >> 
> >> Hope that gives you some options.
> > The reason I did not try any of those is because the package which
> > owns the files is a previous version of the same package!!  This
> > disturbs me that portage does not igure this out all by itself.
> 
> How did you determine that?  Does portage agree with that
> statement?  Is it the same category and package?  Was the
> previous version installed by portage?
> 
> One possible approach would be to quickpg the installed version,
> then unmerge it and try the new emerge again.

Yes, portage agrees with that statement, maybe I didn't give you the
whole log, I thought it said that in there -- I did see that, I am
sure.  My question is how does this work normally, when you merge a
package and update is this not always the case that there are files
owned by the previous version on the system?

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 11:58 AM, John Covici wrote:
> 
> Yes, portage agrees with that statement, maybe I didn't give you the
> whole log, I thought it said that in there -- I did see that, I am
> sure.  My question is how does this work normally, when you merge a
> package and update is this not always the case that there are files
> owned by the previous version on the system?
> 

Yeah, but the package manager knows which files are owned by the version
being replaced and it doesn't complain about those.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1441 bytes --]

Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 4/22/20 11:58 AM, John Covici wrote:
>> Yes, portage agrees with that statement, maybe I didn't give you the
>> whole log, I thought it said that in there -- I did see that, I am
>> sure.  My question is how does this work normally, when you merge a
>> package and update is this not always the case that there are files
>> owned by the previous version on the system?
>>
> Yeah, but the package manager knows which files are owned by the version
> being replaced and it doesn't complain about those.
>
>


Correct.  OP, a little more detail, someone correct me if I'm not clear
enough here.  If you install abc-1 with one set of files but the package
is slotted and abc-2 is installed, portage knows what files are where
and what version of the package they belong too.  Thing is, this is
different.  Portage/emerge thinks those file belong to another package. 
Whether it is a different version or a package with a different name
doesn't matter.  Portage keeps a database of every file it installs and
what package it belongs to, including version if slotted.  When there is
a clash, emerge detects that and spits out the message you see.

If you are certain that those files should be replaced and do not affect
other packages, I'd either disable the protection with the FEATURES
thingy or manually remove those files.  Once you do that,
update/re-emerge the package and test it. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1990 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[John Covici]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:03:39 -0400,
Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> 
> On 4/22/20 11:58 AM, John Covici wrote:
> > 
> > Yes, portage agrees with that statement, maybe I didn't give you the
> > whole log, I thought it said that in there -- I did see that, I am
> > sure.  My question is how does this work normally, when you merge a
> > package and update is this not always the case that there are files
> > owned by the previous version on the system?
> > 
> 
> Yeah, but the package manager knows which files are owned by the version
> being replaced and it doesn't complain about those.

That makes no sense to me -- portage itself says those files are owned
by 14.7.1965(14) so if its telling me that why does it not just
replace those files?

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 1:19 PM, John Covici wrote:
> 
> That makes no sense to me -- portage itself says those files are owned
> by 14.7.1965(14) so if its telling me that why does it not just
> replace those files?
> 

Aha, you're not doing anything wrong. The old 14.7.x version was slotted:

https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/diff/net-misc/teamviewer/teamviewer-14.7.1965.ebuild?id=2766d49e7c040d373685775a4515967cd0f1b33e

The new ones aren't (they're all SLOT=0). But the new ones install to
the same place as the old 14.7.x versions. Since slotted packages aren't
supposed to conflict, it's complaining that SLOT=0 and SLOT=14.7 (or
whatever it was) are trying to install to the same place.

I guess the developer never noticed the problem because he was on a
faster upgrade schedule. You can fix it by uninstalling the old version
manually, and then installing the new one.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[John Covici]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:30:32 -0400,
Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> 
> On 4/22/20 1:19 PM, John Covici wrote:
> > 
> > That makes no sense to me -- portage itself says those files are owned
> > by 14.7.1965(14) so if its telling me that why does it not just
> > replace those files?
> > 
> 
> Aha, you're not doing anything wrong. The old 14.7.x version was slotted:
> 
> https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/diff/net-misc/teamviewer/teamviewer-14.7.1965.ebuild?id=2766d49e7c040d373685775a4515967cd0f1b33e
> 
> The new ones aren't (they're all SLOT=0). But the new ones install to
> the same place as the old 14.7.x versions. Since slotted packages aren't
> supposed to conflict, it's complaining that SLOT=0 and SLOT=14.7 (or
> whatever it was) are trying to install to the same place.
> 
> I guess the developer never noticed the problem because he was on a
> faster upgrade schedule. You can fix it by uninstalling the old version
> manually, and then installing the new one.
> 

OK, manually unmerging and re-emerging did the trick -- thanks all for
your help.

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1191 bytes --]

John Covici wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:30:32 -0400,
> Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>> On 4/22/20 1:19 PM, John Covici wrote:
>>> That makes no sense to me -- portage itself says those files are owned
>>> by 14.7.1965(14) so if its telling me that why does it not just
>>> replace those files?
>>>
>> Aha, you're not doing anything wrong. The old 14.7.x version was slotted:
>>
>> https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/diff/net-misc/teamviewer/teamviewer-14.7.1965.ebuild?id=2766d49e7c040d373685775a4515967cd0f1b33e
>>
>> The new ones aren't (they're all SLOT=0). But the new ones install to
>> the same place as the old 14.7.x versions. Since slotted packages aren't
>> supposed to conflict, it's complaining that SLOT=0 and SLOT=14.7 (or
>> whatever it was) are trying to install to the same place.
>>
>> I guess the developer never noticed the problem because he was on a
>> faster upgrade schedule. You can fix it by uninstalling the old version
>> manually, and then installing the new one.
>>
> OK, manually unmerging and re-emerging did the trick -- thanks all for
> your help.
>

That's one problem solved.  Let's hope the other two will be dealt with
soon. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Philip Webb]

200421 Dale wrote ... :
> Rich Freeman wrote ... :
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:49 PM Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> ... I'm not sure why people keep thinking Gentoo is dying.
> Sometimes I think it is more about the difference
> between binary distros they are coming from
> and Gentoo being source-based than Gentoo actually dying.
> When people consider switching to Gentoo, it's different
> from what they expect.  They may need to research what Gentoo is first.
> Gentoo certainly doesn't hold a person's hand
> during the install or even after the install.

I agree with almost all of this dialog.
Just like Dale, I stumbled into Gentoo in 2003
after Mandrake was late (again) with a semi-annual update.
I tried a couple of other distros, but they didn't install properly,
so I tried the latest new fad Gentoo, followed the install guide
& suddenly found myself looking at a working system.
I've never wanted to use anything else since.

Gentoo is for people who want to run their own Linux systems,
not something someone else out there decided they ought to want.
It does involve a bit of work + responsibility :
my analogy has always been that M$/Mac are like living in a hotel,
Linux binary distros are like renting an apartment
& Gentoo is like owning your own house.

At first, I assumed Consus -- yet another silly pseudonym --
was a troll of the kind which does turn up here every couple of years,
but his remarks do suggest he's genuinely interested, if ignorant (smile).
Hopefully, he will learn how things get done, stay around & help out.

Gentoo does have a major weakness, which is the state of Portage.
It needs a thoro' rewrite, preferably in a faster language than Python.
I'm too old & it's a long time since I did any programming,
so No I'm not volunteering, but if we're lucky
someone -- M Gorny ? -- will get it started & others will join in.

Meanwhile, thanks yet again to all the devs for their unpaid work.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatcadotinterdotnet

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Steven Lembark]

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:49:42 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

Aside:

> It made one glad that
> they could only use keyboards instead of dueling pistols.  Then they
> created moderators with people to enforce some rules.  It got better. 
> Actually, a lot better.  Still, every once in a while, someone feels
> someone else's foot on their toes and it gets a little tense. 

Q: What part of the entirety of human history have you *not* 
   described?

Put it another way:

Q: Why should anyone ever expect Gentoo to somehow not reflect the
   fact that H. Sapiens are its perpetrators?

-- 
Steven Lembark                                      5725 Aylesboro Ave
Workhorse Computing                                Pittsburgh PA 15217
lembark@wrkhors.com                                    +1 888 359 3508

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Steven Lembark wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:49:42 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Aside:
>
>> It made one glad that
>> they could only use keyboards instead of dueling pistols.  Then they
>> created moderators with people to enforce some rules.  It got better. 
>> Actually, a lot better.  Still, every once in a while, someone feels
>> someone else's foot on their toes and it gets a little tense. 
> Q: What part of the entirety of human history have you *not* 
>    described?
>
> Put it another way:
>
> Q: Why should anyone ever expect Gentoo to somehow not reflect the
>    fact that H. Sapiens are its perpetrators?
>

My point was, things were done and they changed.  After that change, it
got better.  All the battling back and forth seemed to actually slow the
progress of Gentoo.  It wasn't helpful for sure.  Last I checked, devs
are human. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 21:33:17 +0300, Consus wrote:

> Still you have to manually configure things. And I know that Gentoo is
> about choice, but configuring kernel is hard.

No it's not. It may be time consuming, especially the first time, but it
is not difficult because the handbook explains it well. It's pretty much
a once only job too as once you have a working config you can use it as
the base for all upgrades.

Of course, if you don't want to do it yourself, there are alternatives,
like genkernel.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I don't have any solution, but I certainly admire the problem.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Consus]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 08:10:33PM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> No it's not. It may be time consuming, especially the first time, but
> it is not difficult because the handbook explains it well. It's pretty
> much a once only job too as once you have a working config you can use
> it as the base for all upgrades.

Aha. YAMA appeared in genkernel something about two months ago :)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Steven Lembark]

> Still you have to manually configure things. And I know that Gentoo is
> about choice, but configuring kernel is hard.

Actually, it's less difficult than finding out half-way through 
a three-day execution cycle that you have the wrong kernel config.

"make menuconfig" is blindingly simple on its own. Discovering
which hardware your machine actally has is difficult, which
drivers are appropriate can be a True Pain (tm); but actually
configuring the kernel is blindingly easy -- if admittedly rahter
boring [I've found a moderate quantity of decent beer helps the
process along quite nicely].

Q: What is it about configuring a kernel that you are finding 
   most difficult? 

I may be able to provide some poitners to simplify it.


-- 
Steven Lembark                                      5725 Aylesboro Ave
Workhorse Computing                                Pittsburgh PA 15217
lembark@wrkhors.com                                    +1 888 359 3508

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday, 21 April 2020 17:58:03 BST Consus wrote:

> ... and even distribution kernel is not an official thing, but a desperate
> attempt of someone to fix things.

Eh? Desperate?

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Consus]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 07:47:44PM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 April 2020 17:58:03 BST Consus wrote:
> 
> > ... and even distribution kernel is not an official thing, but a desperate
> > attempt of someone to fix things.
> 
> Eh? Desperate?

Yeah, mgorny likes to do some provocative stuff like forking Portage.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:01 PM Consus <consus@ftml.net> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 07:47:44PM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 21 April 2020 17:58:03 BST Consus wrote:
> >
> > > ... and even distribution kernel is not an official thing, but a desperate
> > > attempt of someone to fix things.
> >
> > Eh? Desperate?
>
> Yeah, mgorny likes to do some provocative stuff like forking Portage.
>

Much of the progress in Gentoo comes from things like this.  Indeed it
is practically encouraged if you read GLEP 39.  While a lot of
teamwork/consensus is required to keep the lights on and generally
maintain good QA, most of the work of really advancing Gentoo comes
from small groups of one or more devs just independently forking stuff
and moving it forward.  In a fork you can make more radical changes
without worrying about breaking things, and then eventually the
improvements either make their way back into the original project, or
the fork replaces the original.  Those who still care for the original
do the community a service by providing incremental improvements
without instability.

The beauty of FOSS is that the code is all free to anybody to use as
they wish.  There is no such thing as a "bad fork."  It is just more
free code that anybody can use as they wish.  Obviously people don't
always work on the things we want them to work on, but it doesn't cost
us anything really when they do so, and we're always free to do the
same ourselves.

There are some QA/CI tools out there that have substantially improved
the quality of the distro, and most of them have started out as one
dev just creating a tinderbox or whatever and filing bugs when they
see problems.  The only real downside to this is if somebody quits we
might lose these tools - but there are efforts to host them on infra
once we start to treat them as part of the core experience.  When they
start out they're just one dev's random contributions and they may or
may not persist.

On the topic of portage mgorny is not the only one to talk about
forking it.  Not too long ago there was talk about a fork to work on
an improved DAG solver and other speed/quality improvements.  And of
course there was paludis and pkgcore much further back.  Those
projects in part lead to PMS which has improved the quality of our
repos substantially.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[Michael Jones]

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On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:27 PM Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> There are some QA/CI tools out there that have substantially improved
> the quality of the distro, and most of them have started out as one
> dev just creating a tinderbox or whatever and filing bugs when they
> see problems.  The only real downside to this is if somebody quits we
> might lose these tools - but there are efforts to host them on infra
> once we start to treat them as part of the core experience.  When they
> start out they're just one dev's random contributions and they may or
> may not persist.
>


Speaking of tinderboxes:

Is there any kind of QA tool that normal end users can contribute CPU
cycles to? Given the massive combinatorial explosion of package
configurations that can be installed using Gentoo, one might imagine that
there's some value in simply installing programs with different USE
combinations and running the self-tests for those programs.

What I don't want to do is anything manual. Be it filing bugs, or testing
things.

But I'd be happy to run some arbitrary QA tool in a virtual machine or
chroot nearly indefinitely.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[Gregory Rudolph]

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I would also offer up some computing power for that, on VMs, or physical
hardware with different configurations. I'd like to be more involved
with the Gentoo Development community, but time is rarely ever on my side.


Best wishes, gentoo's not dead,

Rudi

----------------------------
Gregory 'Rudi' Rudolph
rudi@x.nightmare.haus
(518) 888-6156
----------------------------

Verify PGP Signature via https://keybase.io/verify I am Rudi9719

This email message and attachment(s) may contain sensitive and/or proprietary information and is intended only for the person(s) to whom this email message is addressed. If you have received this email message in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy the original message without making a copy. Please do not transmit any sensitive, proprietary, ITARS or FOUO data via e-mail without using approved encryption techniques.

On 4/21/20 4:51 PM, Michael Jones wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:27 PM Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org
> <mailto:rich0@gentoo.org>> wrote: 
>
>     There are some QA/CI tools out there that have substantially improved
>     the quality of the distro, and most of them have started out as one
>     dev just creating a tinderbox or whatever and filing bugs when they
>     see problems.  The only real downside to this is if somebody quits we
>     might lose these tools - but there are efforts to host them on infra
>     once we start to treat them as part of the core experience.  When they
>     start out they're just one dev's random contributions and they may or
>     may not persist.
>
>
>
> Speaking of tinderboxes:
>
> Is there any kind of QA tool that normal end users can contribute CPU
> cycles to? Given the massive combinatorial explosion of package
> configurations that can be installed using Gentoo, one might imagine
> that there's some value in simply installing programs with different
> USE combinations and running the self-tests for those programs.
>
> What I don't want to do is anything manual. Be it filing bugs, or
> testing things.
>
> But I'd be happy to run some arbitrary QA tool in a virtual machine or
> chroot nearly indefinitely.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[Michael Jones]

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On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 5:02 PM Gregory Rudolph <rudi@nmare.net> wrote:

> I would also offer up some computing power for that, on VMs, or physical
> hardware with different configurations. I'd like to be more involved with
> the Gentoo Development community, but time is rarely ever on my side.
>
>
> Best wishes, gentoo's not dead,
>

Right, I'm sitting on several big-beefy x86_64 machines (They're older
machines, but they check out...) that typically are powered off.

I would be happy to donate CPU cycles from one of them.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday, 21 April 2020 23:36:21 BST Michael Jones wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 5:02 PM Gregory Rudolph <rudi@nmare.net> wrote:
> > I would also offer up some computing power for that, on VMs, or physical
> > hardware with different configurations. I'd like to be more involved with
> > the Gentoo Development community, but time is rarely ever on my side.
> > 
> > 
> > Best wishes, gentoo's not dead,
> 
> Right, I'm sitting on several big-beefy x86_64 machines (They're older
> machines, but they check out...) that typically are powered off.
> 
> I would be happy to donate CPU cycles from one of them.

Have you thought of contributing their power to BOINC projects? There's a wide 
choice.

https://boinc.berkeley.edu/

"BOINC is an open-source software platform for computing using volunteered 
resources."

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[J. Roeleveld]

On 22 April 2020 11:46:33 CEST, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>On Tuesday, 21 April 2020 23:36:21 BST Michael Jones wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 5:02 PM Gregory Rudolph <rudi@nmare.net>
>wrote:
>> > I would also offer up some computing power for that, on VMs, or
>physical
>> > hardware with different configurations. I'd like to be more
>involved with
>> > the Gentoo Development community, but time is rarely ever on my
>side.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Best wishes, gentoo's not dead,
>> 
>> Right, I'm sitting on several big-beefy x86_64 machines (They're
>older
>> machines, but they check out...) that typically are powered off.
>> 
>> I would be happy to donate CPU cycles from one of them.
>
>Have you thought of contributing their power to BOINC projects? There's
>a wide 
>choice.
>
>https://boinc.berkeley.edu/
>
>"BOINC is an open-source software platform for computing using
>volunteered 
>resources."

Considering the current situation, I switched my systems to foldingathome.

Any other similar projects?

--
Joost
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:17:23 +0200, J. Roeleveld wrote:

> >"BOINC is an open-source software platform for computing using
> >volunteered 
> >resources."  
> 
> Considering the current situation, I switched my systems to
> foldingathome.

Aren't BOINC doing COViD-19 work too?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Are Cheerios really doughnut seeds?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[jdm]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:20:38 +0100
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:17:23 +0200, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> 
> > >"BOINC is an open-source software platform for computing using
> > >volunteered 
> > >resources."    
> > 
> > Considering the current situation, I switched my systems to
> > foldingathome.  
> 
> Aren't BOINC doing COViD-19 work too?
> 
> 

Rosetta@Home

Running night and day.

John

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[Viktar Patotski]

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Being honest, I also have some rather powerful hardware that is completely
free over the night and weekends. I was also thinking if it's possible to
build some additional QA using this box and "dev-python/ebuildtester". This
is very good initiative and idea. In order to get it implemented it's
better to create GLEP and see what could be done.

Thanks,
Viktar

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 12:23 AM jdm <jdm@jdm.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:20:38 +0100
> Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:17:23 +0200, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> >
> > > >"BOINC is an open-source software platform for computing using
> > > >volunteered
> > > >resources."
> > >
> > > Considering the current situation, I switched my systems to
> > > foldingathome.
> >
> > Aren't BOINC doing COViD-19 work too?
> >
> >
>
> Rosetta@Home
>
> Running night and day.
>
> John
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[Michael Jones]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 04:46 Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 21 April 2020 23:36:21 BST Michael Jones wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 5:02 PM Gregory Rudolph <rudi@nmare.net> wrote:
> > > I would also offer up some computing power for that, on VMs, or
> physical
> > > hardware with different configurations. I'd like to be more involved
> with
> > > the Gentoo Development community, but time is rarely ever on my side.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best wishes, gentoo's not dead,
> >
> > Right, I'm sitting on several big-beefy x86_64 machines (They're older
> > machines, but they check out...) that typically are powered off.
> >
> > I would be happy to donate CPU cycles from one of them.
>
> Have you thought of contributing their power to BOINC projects? There's a
> wide
> choice.
>
> https://boinc.berkeley.edu/
>
> "BOINC is an open-source software platform for computing using volunteered
> resources."
>
> --
> Regards,
> Peter.
>


They don't have GPUs (headless servers) so the calculations they can manage
for boinc are going to be on the lower end. If it works similarly to
folding at home.

Not a bad suggestion. But at the moment I'm.more concerned with Gentoo QA

>

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[Michael Jones]

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On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 3:21 PM Steven Lembark <lembark@wrkhors.com> wrote:

>
> Q: You have Docker (or any other lxc) running on something local?
>
> We could use my system here as a sandbox. There should be a decent
> way to have a "gentoo-qc" image for testing: Just snag the image and
> have it "emerge --update" to see what works, or something similar.
>
>
> --
> Steven Lembark                                      5725 Aylesboro Ave
> Workhorse Computing                                Pittsburgh PA 15217
> lembark@wrkhors.com                                    +1 888 359 3508
>


If this question is directed at me, then here's some information:

1) Already installed, and used regularly: systemd-nspawn
2) Docker, or others: Well, whatever tool is needed is only an emerge away

If someone were to add (or, if there is already such a feature and I'm just
not aware...) automatic build log uploads on failure to the make.conf
FEATURES variable, I would also be OK to enable that on my equipment.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[Consus]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 03:51:00PM -0500, Michael Jones wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:27 PM Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > There are some QA/CI tools out there that have substantially improved
> > the quality of the distro, and most of them have started out as one
> > dev just creating a tinderbox or whatever and filing bugs when they
> > see problems.  The only real downside to this is if somebody quits we
> > might lose these tools - but there are efforts to host them on infra
> > once we start to treat them as part of the core experience.  When they
> > start out they're just one dev's random contributions and they may or
> > may not persist.
> >
> 
> 
> Speaking of tinderboxes:
> 
> Is there any kind of QA tool that normal end users can contribute CPU
> cycles to? Given the massive combinatorial explosion of package
> configurations that can be installed using Gentoo, one might imagine that
> there's some value in simply installing programs with different USE
> combinations and running the self-tests for those programs.
> 
> What I don't want to do is anything manual. Be it filing bugs, or testing
> things.
> 
> But I'd be happy to run some arbitrary QA tool in a virtual machine or
> chroot nearly indefinitely.

I have power8 to spare :D

Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Tinderboxes?

[Steven Lembark]

> Is there any kind of QA tool that normal end users can contribute CPU
> cycles to? Given the massive combinatorial explosion of package
> configurations that can be installed using Gentoo, one might imagine
> that there's some value in simply installing programs with different
> USE combinations and running the self-tests for those programs.

The Perl community has had CPAN::Reporter for a while and a set of
smoke-test machines that run it. Normal Perl installs run "make test"
as part of the normal install, the reporter feeds back test results
to the authors -- I get a daily report of what failed and where. The
smoke-test servers run CPAN::Reporter on whatever gets checked in each
day.

In today's world it's rather easy to set this up with docker, using
Gentoo and some temp volumes (e.g., example using Gentoo for smoke-
testing CPAN: https://www.slideshare.net/lembark/smoking-docker).

Adding a Reporter-ish layer to a new version of Portage or a smoke-
testing option that does a "emerge --install" into a temp layer in 
Docker, reports the outcome,  and discards the results shouldn't be 
all that hard. 

I'd be happy to work on something like this.

-- 
Steven Lembark                                      5725 Aylesboro Ave
Workhorse Computing                                Pittsburgh PA 15217
lembark@wrkhors.com                                    +1 888 359 3508

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 11:01 PM, Consus <consus@ftml.net> wrote:

> Yeah, mgorny likes to do some provocative stuff like forking Portage.

patching P*****E is heretic, and forking it is
outright blasphemous.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 11:22 AM, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 11:01 PM, Consus <consus@ftml.net> wrote:
> 
>> Yeah, mgorny likes to do some provocative stuff like forking Portage.
> 
> patching P*****E is heretic, and forking it is
> outright blasphemous.
> 

For everyone complaining about how long emerge @world takes, and about
the incomprehensible error messages -- this fork was a step towards
fixing that. Portage does some slow, unpredictable, undocumented magic
when resolving dependencies that it never should have done in the first
place. Developers using portage then make commits that appear to work
with portage, but won't work in any other PMS-compliant package manager,
and often don't work in portage itself when given slightly different
command-line options.

Portage was forked because the current maintainers insist on leaving it
broken to "avoid the phone calls." There are still problems, but this
way people don't realize they're portage's fault.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 7:35 PM, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 4/22/20 11:22 AM, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 11:01 PM, Consus consus@ftml.net wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah, mgorny likes to do some provocative stuff like forking Portage.
> >
> > patching P*****E is heretic, and forking it is
> > outright blasphemous.
>
> For everyone complaining about how long emerge @world takes, and about
> the incomprehensible error messages -- this fork was a step towards
> fixing that. Portage does some slow, unpredictable, undocumented magic
> when resolving dependencies that it never should have done in the first
> place. Developers using portage then make commits that appear to work
> with portage, but won't work in any other PMS-compliant package manager,
> and often don't work in portage itself when given slightly different
> command-line options.
>
> Portage was forked because the current maintainers insist on leaving it
> broken to "avoid the phone calls." There are still problems, but this
> way people don't realize they're portage's fault.

i was joking.  i agree with you + mgorny.

in fact, i think portage sucks so much it must be
rewritten from scratch, in such a way that it has
least run-time dependencies, so we stop worrying
about upgrading other packages, such as python.

e.g. perhaps gne (gne is not emerge) should better
be statically linked (no stupid python run-time
that freaks us every time we upgrade python).

just my thought.  but mgorny knows much better
than me most likely.  i like his work.  and i hope
politics around emerge/portage gets dropped.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 12:07 PM, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
> 
> i was joking.  i agree with you + mgorny.

I got that =)


> in fact, i think portage sucks so much it must be
> rewritten from scratch, in such a way that it has
> least run-time dependencies, so we stop worrying
> about upgrading other packages, such as python.
> 

sys-apps/pkgcore is a rewrite from scratch, although still in python. It
follows the PMS, but is unusable -- as any other rewrite would be --
because developers regularly commit things that only work in portage.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 04:07:52PM +0000, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
> in fact, i think portage sucks so much it must be
> rewritten from scratch, in such a way that it has
> least run-time dependencies, so we stop worrying
> about upgrading other packages, such as python.

  Yes. And yes again :-). +1
  portage must be in C and statically linked.
  python is a strange dependency.

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 12:14 PM, lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 04:07:52PM +0000, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
>> in fact, i think portage sucks so much it must be
>> rewritten from scratch, in such a way that it has
>> least run-time dependencies, so we stop worrying
>> about upgrading other packages, such as python.
> 
>   Yes. And yes again :-). +1
>   portage must be in C and statically linked.
>   python is a strange dependency.
> 


Paludis was a C++ package manager, but is dead now. No one's willing to
work on these things when ::gentoo is portage-only.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 12:16:20PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 4/22/20 12:14 PM, lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> >   Yes. And yes again :-). +1
> >   portage must be in C and statically linked.
> >   python is a strange dependency.
> 
> Paludis was a C++ package manager, but is dead now. No one's willing to
> work on these things when ::gentoo is portage-only.

  No-no. C++ is a nightmare. A few people want to use it.


-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Jones]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:30 AM <lego12239@yandex.ru> wrote:

>
>   No-no. C++ is a nightmare. A few people want to use it.
>

C++ is an extremely widespread language with millions of lines of code
written daily world wide.

Lots of people want to use it. Just not people who want to write a PMS
compliant package manager.

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:32:49AM -0500, Michael Jones wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:30 AM <lego12239@yandex.ru> wrote:
> >   No-no. C++ is a nightmare. A few people want to use it.
> 
> C++ is an extremely widespread language with millions of lines of code
> written daily world wide.

  C is more widespread, than C++.
  C++ is unneededly complex and for such core thing like a portage
C would be better. C code is simpler and robust. More people know it.
More people can send patches. Etc.

> Lots of people want to use it. Just not people who want to write a PMS
> compliant package manager.

  No problem. They can use it outside portage :-).

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Jones]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:47 AM <lego12239@yandex.ru> wrote:

>   C is more widespread, than C++.
>

Yes, this is true.


> C++ is unneededly complex and for such core thing like a portage
> C would be better. C code is simpler and robust. More people know it.
> More people can send patches. Etc.
>

I disagree to the fullest, most intense, way possible.

Nevertheless, this subject is way off topic for this list, so I'll just say
we can agree to disagree, and not engage in the subject on-list any further.

I'd be happy to discuss the subject with anyone who wants to contact me
privately, however.

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 8:32 PM, Michael Jones <gentoo@jonesmz.com> wrote:

> >   No-no. C++ is a nightmare. A few people want to use it.
>
> C++ is an extremely widespread language with millions of lines of code written daily world wide. 

i think that might be misleading as it seems to
imply that being a c++ dev is mutually exclusive
against being a c dev (is it? the languages agree on
many syntaxes/features).

i think the right way of thinking is as follows:

1. identify programming features needed to code
   a reliable pms.  i think most likely all we
   need is [recursive] function calls and
   if/else/loops.  the rest probably has to do
   with algorithms (independent of the language).

2. pick language that has features (1) and has the
   largest users base.  if the set of features in
   (1) is small enough (such as ones i suggested),
   then the c++ developers should be counted as c
   developers (because that part is common between
   c++ and c).

3. apply occam's razor.  if two languages are
   equally satisfying points (1) and (2), then
   choose the simplest one.  but if my thought is
   correct (that we only need the subset of
   features in c++ that's already in c), then c is
   guaranteed to have a greater effective number
   of developers in step (2).  hence, we will not
   even need to apply occam's razor to remove c++
   (unless points (1) and (2) result in a tie,
   which i don't think it does in this case).

> Lots of people want to use it. Just not people who want to write a PMS compliant package manager.

probably same kind of people that are headed to
blow their legs (and ours) in the process.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 8:35 AM Caveman Al Toraboran
<toraboracaveman@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 8:32 PM, Michael Jones <gentoo@jonesmz.com> wrote:
>
> > >   No-no. C++ is a nightmare. A few people want to use it.
> >
> > C++ is an extremely widespread language with millions of lines of code written daily world wide.
>
> i think that might be misleading as it seems to
> imply that being a c++ dev is mutually exclusive
> against being a c dev

How did we get from "Is Gentoo dead?" to "Is C++ dead?"

-- 
Rich

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 4:45 PM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> How did we get from "Is Gentoo dead?" to "Is C++ dead?"

c++ is very alive.  it just usually exists in the
form of a disease and spreads like cancer.

rgrds,
cm.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michele Alzetta]

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... seems like you're describing haskell ...
... now, portage written in haskell would be really something

Il giorno ven 24 apr 2020 alle ore 14:36 Caveman Al Toraboran <
toraboracaveman@protonmail.com> ha scritto:

> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 8:32 PM, Michael Jones <gentoo@jonesmz.com>
> wrote:
>
> > >   No-no. C++ is a nightmare. A few people want to use it.
> >
> > C++ is an extremely widespread language with millions of lines of code
> written daily world wide.
>
> i think that might be misleading as it seems to
> imply that being a c++ dev is mutually exclusive
> against being a c dev (is it? the languages agree on
> many syntaxes/features).
>
> i think the right way of thinking is as follows:
>
> 1. identify programming features needed to code
>    a reliable pms.  i think most likely all we
>    need is [recursive] function calls and
>    if/else/loops.  the rest probably has to do
>    with algorithms (independent of the language).
>
> 2. pick language that has features (1) and has the
>    largest users base.  if the set of features in
>    (1) is small enough (such as ones i suggested),
>    then the c++ developers should be counted as c
>    developers (because that part is common between
>    c++ and c).
>
> 3. apply occam's razor.  if two languages are
>    equally satisfying points (1) and (2), then
>    choose the simplest one.  but if my thought is
>    correct (that we only need the subset of
>    features in c++ that's already in c), then c is
>    guaranteed to have a greater effective number
>    of developers in step (2).  hence, we will not
>    even need to apply occam's razor to remove c++
>    (unless points (1) and (2) result in a tie,
>    which i don't think it does in this case).
>
> > Lots of people want to use it. Just not people who want to write a PMS
> compliant package manager.
>
> probably same kind of people that are headed to
> blow their legs (and ours) in the process.
>
>
>

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michele Alzetta]

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I mean, basically portage is just a set of functions, so a functional
programming language might just be the best way to go

Il giorno ven 24 apr 2020 alle ore 19:54 Michele Alzetta <
michele.alzetta@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> ... seems like you're describing haskell ...
> ... now, portage written in haskell would be really something
>
> Il giorno ven 24 apr 2020 alle ore 14:36 Caveman Al Toraboran <
> toraboracaveman@protonmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 8:32 PM, Michael Jones <gentoo@jonesmz.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > >   No-no. C++ is a nightmare. A few people want to use it.
>> >
>> > C++ is an extremely widespread language with millions of lines of code
>> written daily world wide.
>>
>> i think that might be misleading as it seems to
>> imply that being a c++ dev is mutually exclusive
>> against being a c dev (is it? the languages agree on
>> many syntaxes/features).
>>
>> i think the right way of thinking is as follows:
>>
>> 1. identify programming features needed to code
>>    a reliable pms.  i think most likely all we
>>    need is [recursive] function calls and
>>    if/else/loops.  the rest probably has to do
>>    with algorithms (independent of the language).
>>
>> 2. pick language that has features (1) and has the
>>    largest users base.  if the set of features in
>>    (1) is small enough (such as ones i suggested),
>>    then the c++ developers should be counted as c
>>    developers (because that part is common between
>>    c++ and c).
>>
>> 3. apply occam's razor.  if two languages are
>>    equally satisfying points (1) and (2), then
>>    choose the simplest one.  but if my thought is
>>    correct (that we only need the subset of
>>    features in c++ that's already in c), then c is
>>    guaranteed to have a greater effective number
>>    of developers in step (2).  hence, we will not
>>    even need to apply occam's razor to remove c++
>>    (unless points (1) and (2) result in a tie,
>>    which i don't think it does in this case).
>>
>> > Lots of people want to use it. Just not people who want to write a PMS
>> compliant package manager.
>>
>> probably same kind of people that are headed to
>> blow their legs (and ours) in the process.
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 9:56 PM, Michele Alzetta <michele.alzetta@gmail.com> wrote:

> I mean, basically portage is just a set of functions, so a functional programming language might just be the best way to go

yes, haskell passes step (1); so does php,
java, etc.  now kindly apply the rest of the steps
((2) and (3)), and see how far haskell would reach?

i don't think haskell would pass step (2), and
even if does, i doubt it would survive step (3).

unless you're seriously asking this question,
you're committing a strawman.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Alessandro Barbieri]

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Nothing should be statically linked, please stop spreading the disease.

Il Mer 22 Apr 2020, 18:14 <lego12239@yandex.ru> ha scritto:

> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 04:07:52PM +0000, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
> > in fact, i think portage sucks so much it must be
> > rewritten from scratch, in such a way that it has
> > least run-time dependencies, so we stop worrying
> > about upgrading other packages, such as python.
>
>   Yes. And yes again :-). +1
>   portage must be in C and statically linked.
>   python is a strange dependency.
>
> --
> Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)
>
>

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Jones]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:18 AM Alessandro Barbieri <
lssndrbarbieri@gmail.com> wrote:

> Nothing should be statically linked, please stop spreading the disease.
>

On a source-based distribution, the thing that manages package
installations can break itself if it incorrectly installs a library that a
subsequent run of itself would dynamically link against.

There are plenty of valid use-cases for statically linked binaries. One
such use case is that the C++ standard doesn't acknowledge the existence of
dynamic linking in the first place. (It doesn't say it's invalid, just the
standard doesn't address the concept one way or another, implicitly
assuming static linking).

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 12:24 PM, Michael Jones wrote:
> 
> On a source-based distribution, the thing that manages package
> installations can break itself if it incorrectly installs a library that
> a subsequent run of itself would dynamically link against.
> 

I won't say this is impossible, but in general it hasn't been true for a
long time in Gentoo. Old libraries are left behind until you rebuild the
things that link against them (that's what emerge @preserved-rebuild
does). When used correctly, subslot dependencies in ebuilds avoid the
need for even that additional step.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Jones]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:28 AM Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> I won't say this is impossible, but in general it hasn't been true for a
> long time in Gentoo. Old libraries are left behind until you rebuild the
> things that link against them (that's what emerge @preserved-rebuild
> does). When used correctly, subslot dependencies in ebuilds avoid the
> need for even that additional step.
>
>
Right. Gentoo has safeguards in place already. Static-linking is only one
tool in a large toolbox, and given Portage is a python program, it's not
applicable to this situation.

I was referring to the case of some hypothetical package manager built with
C/C++. In that situation, staticly linking the package manager would
provide one aspect of defense against self-breakage.

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 8:28 PM, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 4/22/20 12:24 PM, Michael Jones wrote:
>
> > On a source-based distribution, the thing that manages package
> > installations can break itself if it incorrectly installs a library that
> > a subsequent run of itself would dynamically link against.
>
> I won't say this is impossible, but in general it hasn't been true for a
> long time in Gentoo. Old libraries are left behind until you rebuild the
> things that link against them (that's what emerge @preserved-rebuild
> does). When used correctly, subslot dependencies in ebuilds avoid the
> need for even that additional step.

just to say that some portagy thing (layman) can't
work now as emerge was rebuilding packages to
remove python3_6):

    running "layman -S"...
    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "/usr/lib/python-exec/python3.6/layman", line 36, in <module>
        from   layman.cli            import Main
      File "/usr/lib64/python3.6/site-packages/layman/cli.py", line 29, in <module>
        from layman.api import LaymanAPI
      File "/usr/lib64/python3.6/site-packages/layman/api.py", line 25, in <module>
        from layman.remotedb        import RemoteDB
      File "/usr/lib64/python3.6/site-packages/layman/remotedb.py", line 46, in <module>
        from   sslfetch.connections     import Connector
    ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'sslfetch'

obviously solvable easily in this case, but imo
needless drama keeps coming every now and then.

imo we've also became pythonupgradophobic.  every
python upgrade becomes after a warning from
eselect news.

i look forward the day when all portagy things
get treated similar to busybox (i.e. come with
"static" USE flag by default).

that said, gentoo is still the best distro imo.
so it shall remain accursed by immortality in the
realm of undeads.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 9:13 PM Caveman Al Toraboran
<toraboracaveman@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
> just to say that some portagy thing (layman) can't
> work now as emerge was rebuilding packages to
> remove python3_6):
>
>     running "layman -S"...
>     Traceback (most recent call last):
>       File "/usr/lib/python-exec/python3.6/layman", line 36, in <module>
>         from   layman.cli            import Main
>       File "/usr/lib64/python3.6/site-packages/layman/cli.py", line 29, in <module>
>         from layman.api import LaymanAPI
>       File "/usr/lib64/python3.6/site-packages/layman/api.py", line 25, in <module>
>         from layman.remotedb        import RemoteDB
>       File "/usr/lib64/python3.6/site-packages/layman/remotedb.py", line 46, in <module>
>         from   sslfetch.connections     import Connector
>     ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'sslfetch'
>
> obviously solvable easily in this case, but imo
> needless drama keeps coming every now and then.
>

Are you overriding something, or were you running this right in the
middle of an update?

layman-2.4.2 strictly requires python 3.6 and the system wouldn't let
you remove that version of python unless you forced it to.  The newer
version of layman is compatible with the newer versions of python, but
of course needs to be rebuilt for it.

If you read the news on the update you'd see this.  If you just do a
regular emerge -uD @world then while it was in the middle of updating
some things would break.  There are instructions in the news for how
to do a more seamless upgrade by enabling both the older and newer
versions of python in parallel, in which case there won't be any point
where things break.  That does require rebuilding everything twice
(not necessarily at the same time).

Really though this is pretty tame.  There have been some updates to
expat and especially glibc in the past that were pretty hairy.

-- 
Rich

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Thursday, May 7, 2020 5:43 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Are you overriding something, or were you running this right in the
> middle of an update?

emerge was updating, then some ebuild failed and i
didn't have --keep-going.  then next time i tried
to sync layman it failed.

i'm now re-running emerge and it seems to work
normally.

>
> layman-2.4.2 strictly requires python 3.6 and the system wouldn't let
> you remove that version of python unless you forced it to. The newer
> version of layman is compatible with the newer versions of python, but
> of course needs to be rebuilt for it.

i have layman-2.4.3, emerged with python3_6, and
is now about to be moved to python3_7.

no biggie.  i can fix it.  but, my point is, this
hassle is needless and keeps coming.

> If you read the news on the update you'd see this. If you just do a
> regular emerge -uD @world then while it was in the middle of updating
> some things would break. There are instructions in the news for how
> to do a more seamless upgrade by enabling both the older and newer
> versions of python in parallel, in which case there won't be any point
> where things break. That does require rebuilding everything twice
> (not necessarily at the same time).

true, but needless hassle imo.

> Really though this is pretty tame. There have been some updates to
> expat and especially glibc in the past that were pretty hairy.

are you referring to python's dependence on expat
and glibc?

yeah, so many layers of mistakes get born when one
relies on python as a dependency for a system app
that manages other apps (including itself).

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:14 PM Caveman Al Toraboran
<toraboracaveman@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
> are you referring to python's dependence on expat
> and glibc?
>

More like bash's dependence.  Well, and in the case of glibc just
about everything.  When those break you're basically stuck recovering
from a rescue disk.

Fortunately we haven't had glibc/gcc break ABI in quite a while, and
preserved-rebuild covers a lot of the other issues.

In any case, if you have a solution other than statically building
half the system I'm sure patches will be welcome.  FWIW Gentoo is
about as hassle-free to use as it has ever been.  It isn't debian
stable, and it is unlikely to ever be that way...

-- 
Rich

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:14 PM Caveman Al Toraboran
> <toraboracaveman@protonmail.com> wrote:
>> are you referring to python's dependence on expat
>> and glibc?
>>
> More like bash's dependence.  Well, and in the case of glibc just
> about everything.  When those break you're basically stuck recovering
> from a rescue disk.
>
> Fortunately we haven't had glibc/gcc break ABI in quite a while, and
> preserved-rebuild covers a lot of the other issues.
>
> In any case, if you have a solution other than statically building
> half the system I'm sure patches will be welcome.  FWIW Gentoo is
> about as hassle-free to use as it has ever been.  It isn't debian
> stable, and it is unlikely to ever be that way...
>


I agree that the Gentoo update process is a LOT better than it used to
be.  Even I run into fewer problems and that's saying something.  lol

There used to be a package that caused some serious problems with
upgrades.  It was really tricky but I can't recall the name of it since
it was ages ago.  It was back around the old hal days or so.  I don't
know if it is even used anymore.  Either the update process has improved
or it isn't used anymore.  I just recall it was a critical package, sort
of like gcc or glibc but it was some other package. 

OP, odds are the emerge failure is what triggered the problem.  If it
had completed without failure, it would likely have been a clean
update.  This is why I set up a chroot and do my updates there and use
the -k option to install on my actual system.  It takes very little time
and so far, no breakages on my real system.  If any thing fails, it's
more likely to be in the chroot which won't hurt anything. If you able,
may be a option worth thinking about for yourself as well. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Thursday, May 7, 2020 7:31 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> Rich Freeman wrote:
>
> OP, odds are the emerge failure is what triggered the problem.  If it had
> completed without failure, it would likely have been a clean update.  This is
> why I set up a chroot and do my updates there and use the -k option to
> install on my actual system.  It takes very little time and so far, no
> breakages on my real system.  If any thing fails, it's more likely to be in
> the chroot which won't hurt anything. If you able, may be a option worth
> thinking about for yourself as well. 
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)

ya.  i said it already.  emerge's update failed
with some package midways (some package needed
some USE flag change), but then layman stopped
working in this incomplete state.

also the issue was simple.  but i pointed out that
the inconvenience of having a fancy dependency on
a pms is still there.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael]

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On Thursday, 7 May 2020 04:50:41 BST Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
> On Thursday, May 7, 2020 7:31 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Rich Freeman wrote:
> > 
> > OP, odds are the emerge failure is what triggered the problem.  If it had
> > completed without failure, it would likely have been a clean update.  This
> > is why I set up a chroot and do my updates there and use the -k option to
> > install on my actual system.  It takes very little time and so far, no
> > breakages on my real system.  If any thing fails, it's more likely to be
> > in the chroot which won't hurt anything. If you able, may be a option
> > worth thinking about for yourself as well.
> > 
> > Dale
> > 
> > :-)  :-)
> 
> ya.  i said it already.  emerge's update failed
> with some package midways (some package needed
> some USE flag change), but then layman stopped
> working in this incomplete state.
> 
> also the issue was simple.  but i pointed out that
> the inconvenience of having a fancy dependency on
> a pms is still there.

Our portage sync cycles are different. I updated some python packages during 
yesterday's resync on a stable system. Today there was no packages needing 
update, but portage was unable to resolve layman:

======================================================
These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies \

!!! Problem resolving dependencies for app-portage/layman from @selected
... done!

!!! The ebuild selected to satisfy "app-portage/layman" has unmet 
requirements.
- app-portage/layman-2.4.2-r1::gentoo USE="git -cvs (-darcs) (-g-sorcery) -gpg 
-mercurial -sqlite -squashfs -subversion -sync-plugin-portage -test" 
PYTHON_TARGETS="-python3_6"

  The following REQUIRED_USE flag constraints are unsatisfied:
    python_targets_python3_6

  The above constraints are a subset of the following complete expression:
    any-of ( python_targets_python3_6 )
=======================================


Python3.6 is still installed so layman works as intended and in the near 
future when >=layman-2.4.3 is stabilised in the tree, a regular update will 
resolve the above issue.  Since neither layman nor portage are functionally 
borked, I don't perceive the above as a problem.

Nevertheless, I followed the original thread with interest.  Technology and 
programming languages evolve apace, so I understand a PMS running on python 
for decades may be deemed suboptimal today, if other more suitable solutions 
are now available.  Unless someone skilled in those hypothetically better 
technologies rocks up and contributes, something I think most would welcome, I 
don't see the portage 'solution' moving away from python soon.  I understand 
Paludis was such an endeavour, but its attempt to dethrone python didn't 
survive the test of time - or was it internal politics?

I am less exercised regarding the static Vs dynamic libraries argument, which 
I also followed in the thread.  I don't recall portage breaking here in what 
must have been hundreds of upgrades on mostly stable systems, for more than 17 
years.  What I'm saying is, it has worked for me and I thank the devs and 
maintainers for a job well done.  :-)

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 6 May 2020 22:31:54 -0500, Dale wrote:

> There used to be a package that caused some serious problems with
> upgrades.  It was really tricky but I can't recall the name of it since
> it was ages ago.

expat? I recall that causing some hair loss.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Ubuntu" is an ancient African word, meaning "I can't configure
Slackware".

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 6 May 2020 22:31:54 -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> There used to be a package that caused some serious problems with
>> upgrades.  It was really tricky but I can't recall the name of it since
>> it was ages ago.
> expat? I recall that causing some hair loss.
>
>


It's possible but it doesn't ring a bell.  I recall that the devs did a
guide for the upgrade.  We didn't have the news thingy at the time so
people sort of ran into it like a train hitting a concrete wall.  It
could get ugly real fast. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael]

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On Thursday, 7 May 2020 16:11:03 BST Dale wrote:
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Wed, 6 May 2020 22:31:54 -0500, Dale wrote:
> >> There used to be a package that caused some serious problems with
> >> upgrades.  It was really tricky but I can't recall the name of it since
> >> it was ages ago.
> > 
> > expat? I recall that causing some hair loss.
> 
> It's possible but it doesn't ring a bell.  I recall that the devs did a
> guide for the upgrade.  We didn't have the news thingy at the time so
> people sort of ran into it like a train hitting a concrete wall.  It
> could get ugly real fast. 
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 

I remember Dale running into some problems many moons ago, specific to his 
hardware detection, but a portage upgrade was not to blame at the time:

https://xkcd.com/1586/

The image alt text is even funnier!  :-))

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Michael wrote:
> On Thursday, 7 May 2020 16:11:03 BST Dale wrote:
>> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>> On Wed, 6 May 2020 22:31:54 -0500, Dale wrote:
>>>> There used to be a package that caused some serious problems with
>>>> upgrades.  It was really tricky but I can't recall the name of it since
>>>> it was ages ago.
>>> expat? I recall that causing some hair loss.
>> It's possible but it doesn't ring a bell.  I recall that the devs did a
>> guide for the upgrade.  We didn't have the news thingy at the time so
>> people sort of ran into it like a train hitting a concrete wall.  It
>> could get ugly real fast. 
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
> I remember Dale running into some problems many moons ago, specific to his 
> hardware detection, but a portage upgrade was not to blame at the time:
>
> https://xkcd.com/1586/
>
> The image alt text is even funnier!  :-))


That sounds like hal.  Let's not go there.  That nerve is still a bit
touchy.  ;-) 

That pic makes me wonder.  lol 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Thursday, May 7, 2020 6:35 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:14 PM Caveman Al Toraboran
> toraboracaveman@protonmail.com wrote:
>
> > are you referring to python's dependence on expat
> > and glibc?
>
> More like bash's dependence. Well, and in the case of glibc just
> about everything. When those break you're basically stuck recovering
> from a rescue disk.

or have sash somewhere around?

> Fortunately we haven't had glibc/gcc break ABI in quite a while, and
> preserved-rebuild covers a lot of the other issues.
>
> In any case, if you have a solution other than statically building
> half the system I'm sure patches will be welcome. FWIW Gentoo is
> about as hassle-free to use as it has ever been. It isn't debian
> stable, and it is unlikely to ever be that way...

why not?  surely not as a 1st step, but it's not
like 50% of the system apps are sacred or
anything.

imo right approach is this:

1. make portage statically linked.  enjoy the
   removed python inconveniences.

2. if the bottleneck of inconvenience becomes
   bash's use glibc (a great milestone to
   celebrate btw), then we see how to fix that.

3. a component at a time, we eventually approach
   linux utopia.

``step (1) is not a utopia yet'' is no excuse to
not start the journey of removing inconveniences.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 06:17:52PM +0200, Alessandro Barbieri wrote:
> Nothing should be statically linked, please stop spreading the disease.

  You are wrong ;-).

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Alessandro Barbieri]

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Whatever, but QA is by my side and I'm helping removing static libraries
from gentoo packages.

https://projects.gentoo.org/qa/policy-guide/installed-files.html?highlight=static#pg0302
Also more context here:
https://flameeyes.blog/2011/08/29/useless-flag-static-libs/
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/2dada80c2b9c85b0e83e6328428bf8ab

Il Mer 22 Apr 2020, 18:25 <lego12239@yandex.ru> ha scritto:

> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 06:17:52PM +0200, Alessandro Barbieri wrote:
> > Nothing should be statically linked, please stop spreading the disease.
>
>   You are wrong ;-).
>
> --
> Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)
>
>

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 07:48:01PM +0200, Alessandro Barbieri wrote:
> Whatever, but QA is by my side and I'm helping removing static libraries
> from gentoo packages.

Man, this is not a technical argument. Sorry :-). You are wrong from a
technical point of view. And the fact above says just:

- some packages really need not this
- or QA not competent in this question just like you

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 2:08 PM, lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 07:48:01PM +0200, Alessandro Barbieri wrote:
>> Whatever, but QA is by my side and I'm helping removing static libraries
>> from gentoo packages.
> 
> Man, this is not a technical argument. Sorry :-). You are wrong from a
> technical point of view. And the fact above says just:
> 
> - some packages really need not this
> - or QA not competent in this question just like you
> 

How do you plan to update all of your programs when there's a security
vulnerability in, say, OpenSSL?

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Jones]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:19 PM Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> How do you plan to update all of your programs when there's a security
> vulnerability in, say, OpenSSL?
>

Is there some reason why all packages that depend on OpenSSL, transitively,
could not be recompiled?

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 2:24 PM, Michael Jones wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:19 PM Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org
> <mailto:mjo@gentoo.org>> wrote:
> 
>     How do you plan to update all of your programs when there's a security
>     vulnerability in, say, OpenSSL?
> 
> 
> Is there some reason why all packages that depend on OpenSSL,
> transitively, could not be recompiled? 

If you statically link more than a few things, this is emerge -e @world
 twenty times a day.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Jones]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:33 PM Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 4/22/20 2:24 PM, Michael Jones wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:19 PM Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org
> > <mailto:mjo@gentoo.org>> wrote:
> >
> >     How do you plan to update all of your programs when there's a
> security
> >     vulnerability in, say, OpenSSL?
> >
> >
> > Is there some reason why all packages that depend on OpenSSL,
> > transitively, could not be recompiled?
>
> If you statically link more than a few things, this is emerge -e @world
>  twenty times a day.
>
>
Why would I need to emerge world? Portage knows the full list of packages
that depend on openssl, transitively.

Unless you're generalizing to say that (almost) everything depends on
openssl, I suppose.

Also, didn't the handbook, at one point, say not to sync portage more than
once a day? So why would package installations happen 20 times per day?

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 3:15 PM, Michael Jones wrote:
> 
> Why would I need to emerge world? Portage knows the full list of
> packages that depend on openssl, transitively.
> 
> Unless you're generalizing to say that (almost) everything depends on
> openssl, I suppose.
> 
> Also, didn't the handbook, at one point, say not to sync portage more
> than once a day? So why would package installations happen 20 times per
> day? 

It's not that everything depends on OpenSSL, but that everything depends
on /something/. If everything is statically linked, then any update of
any package sets off a chain reaction of other packages that trigger
rebuilds of other packages that trigger rebuilds of...

If you only sync once a day, then yes, you'll only have to rebuild once
a day. I sync considerably more than that though, and besides, it takes
me about a week to emerge -e @world.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Jones]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:19 PM Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 4/22/20 3:15 PM, Michael Jones wrote:
> >
> > Why would I need to emerge world? Portage knows the full list of
> > packages that depend on openssl, transitively.
> >
> > Unless you're generalizing to say that (almost) everything depends on
> > openssl, I suppose.
> >
> > Also, didn't the handbook, at one point, say not to sync portage more
> > than once a day? So why would package installations happen 20 times per
> > day?
>
> It's not that everything depends on OpenSSL, but that everything depends
> on /something/. If everything is statically linked, then any update of
> any package sets off a chain reaction of other packages that trigger
> rebuilds of other packages that trigger rebuilds of...
>
> If you only sync once a day, then yes, you'll only have to rebuild once
> a day. I sync considerably more than that though, and besides, it takes
> me about a week to emerge -e @world.
>
>

Well, I suppose that's the consequence that someone would have to accept if
they wanted to link things statically.

I use static libraries for work in some situations, and understand the cost
of using them

But I don't generally want my entire system statically linked, only a few
things.

Regardless, thank you for clarifying.

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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 3:22 PM, Michael Jones wrote:
> 
> But I don't generally want my entire system statically linked, only a
> few things.
> 

FWIW, I do know there are situations where static linking is the right
thing to do.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 03:24:07PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> FWIW, I do know there are situations where static linking is the right
> thing to do.

If you project require strong security, than it would be simpler to use static linking.
If you have many instances of the same program or have many shortlived processes of the
same program, than static linking is better(for ram and speed).

Michael, just read about history of shared object. That was not technical decision,
that was marketing decision.

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/23/20 4:45 AM, lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 03:24:07PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>> FWIW, I do know there are situations where static linking is the right
>> thing to do.
> 
> If you project require strong security, than it would be simpler to use static linking.
> If you have many instances of the same program or have many shortlived processes of the
> same program, than static linking is better(for ram and speed).
> 
> Michael, just read about history of shared object. That was not technical decision,
> that was marketing decision.
> 

I might believe you about speed, but not about RAM. Memory usage goes up
with static linking because you've got multiple copies of the same thing
loaded into memory. And that makes the performance argument tricky as
well: you're saving a bit of CPU time on function calls, but maybe your
cache is also filled up with those same copies of the same stuff, and as
a result things actually get slower as you hit the disk to load the 22nd
copy of a library.

Ignoring that, the faster load time and speed improvements were minor to
begin with. It's not worth making your system annoying to manage. If you
think I'm wrong, feel free to shoot yourself in the foot, but you
shouldn't be calling Alessandro or the QA team incompetent (that's my
bit...) unless you have some strong new evidence that static linking
improves things in a general-purpose linux distro.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 05:07:48PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> I might believe you about speed, but not about RAM. Memory usage goes up
> with static linking because you've got multiple copies of the same thing
> loaded into memory.

No. I told about RAM :-). Several years ago i had some research for one
project. It needed to run multiple instances of the same program(several
thousands of concurrent instances). We tried to achieve maximum memory
economy. And we saw that when the program linked statically, each instance
consume less memory starting from 6 instances. Thanks to sharing of .text
segments.

Thus, for something like bash a static linking isn't bad. I have now 12
instances of it running. If it would be static, then not only every script
that i run during work day starts faster, but it consume a little less ram.

> think I'm wrong, feel free to shoot yourself in the foot, but you
> shouldn't be calling Alessandro or the QA team incompetent (that's my
> bit...) unless you have some strong new evidence that static linking
> improves things in a general-purpose linux distro.

No-no. I didn't want to call QA team or Alessandro incompetent. May
be some typo or misspelling. I just said that anybody who says "Nothing should
be statically linked" is incompetent in this question. Because this is simply
not true.


-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 02:22:02PM -0500, Michael Jones wrote:
> But I don't generally want my entire system statically linked, only a few
> things.

But who said that *entire* system should be statically linked?
The conversation is so far only about such a critical thing as portage.

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 03:19:26PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> It's not that everything depends on OpenSSL, but that everything depends
> on /something/. If everything is statically linked, then any update of
> any package sets off a chain reaction of other packages that trigger
> rebuilds of other packages that trigger rebuilds of...

Nobody talk about "everything is statically linked".
However, this is a good idea ;-), but this is a topic for another
conversation :-).

> If you only sync once a day, then yes, you'll only have to rebuild once
> a day. I sync considerably more than that though, and besides, it takes
> me about a week to emerge -e @world.

Just interesting, why you need to sync every day?
And why you need emerge -e, if you can use emerge -auND?

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Consus]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 11:52:52AM +0300, lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> Nobody talk about "everything is statically linked".
> However, this is a good idea ;-), but this is a topic for another
> conversation :-).

No wonder Yandex considers you SPAM.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 11:59:46AM +0300, Consus wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 11:52:52AM +0300, lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> > Nobody talk about "everything is statically linked".
> > However, this is a good idea ;-), but this is a topic for another
> > conversation :-).
> 
> No wonder Yandex considers you SPAM.

  Sorry about that :-). But it not me, Yandex mistakly considers
mailing list as a spam :-).

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 03:19:26PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>
>> If you only sync once a day, then yes, you'll only have to rebuild once
>> a day. I sync considerably more than that though, and besides, it takes
>> me about a week to emerge -e @world.
> Just interesting, why you need to sync every day?
> And why you need emerge -e, if you can use emerge -auND?
>

Might be because Michael is a Gentoo developer.  They have to sync a lot
as they make changes to the tree. 

The two commands do different things.  Using emerge -e calculates
rebuilding every package while emerge -auDN only looks for certain
updates.  Each can be useful even if not allowed to complete.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 04:02:13AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> > Just interesting, why you need to sync every day?
> > And why you need emerge -e, if you can use emerge -auND?
> 
> Might be because Michael is a Gentoo developer.  They have to sync a lot
> as they make changes to the tree. 

There is nothing to be done. He himself decided like that.
No one forced :-D.

> The two commands do different things.  Using emerge -e calculates
> rebuilding every package while emerge -auDN only looks for certain
> updates.  Each can be useful even if not allowed to complete.

I know about it. I didn't understand why in usual case we need to
do everytime emerge -e, instead of emerge -uND. But if we talk about os
developer - it's clear(but why *everytime* emerge -e?).

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 04:02:13AM -0500, Dale wrote:
>> lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
>>> Just interesting, why you need to sync every day?
>>> And why you need emerge -e, if you can use emerge -auND?
>> Might be because Michael is a Gentoo developer.  They have to sync a lot
>> as they make changes to the tree. 
> There is nothing to be done. He himself decided like that.
> No one forced :-D.

You ever think that developers may have to do things us users don't? 
All we do is use portage/emerge to update our systems.  They have to
write or update ebuilds, test them, push them to the tree and then test
them some more.  They also have to try to make sure the code it creates
works.  All of that takes a lot of time and effort.  Things we don't see. 

>> The two commands do different things.  Using emerge -e calculates
>> rebuilding every package while emerge -auDN only looks for certain
>> updates.  Each can be useful even if not allowed to complete.
> I know about it. I didn't understand why in usual case we need to
> do everytime emerge -e, instead of emerge -uND. But if we talk about os
> developer - it's clear(but why *everytime* emerge -e?).
>

If you do a emerge -ea world, you will see changes that emerge -uaDN
world won't because it considers every package on the system.  When you
do emerge -uaDN world, it only looks for changes/updates to the world
file and what they depend on but only to a point.  There is a huge
difference. 

Run them both and observe the difference.  For a dev, that difference
can reveal something important. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 04:44:10AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> You ever think that developers may have to do things us users don't? 

Oh... Dale, that was a joke ;-).

> All we do is use portage/emerge to update our systems.  They have to
> write or update ebuilds, test them, push them to the tree and then test
> them some more.  They also have to try to make sure the code it creates
> works.  All of that takes a lot of time and effort.  Things we don't see. 

You tell obvious things. I talk not about that. Forget it.

> If you do a emerge -ea world, you will see changes that emerge -uaDN
> world won't because it considers every package on the system.  When you
> do emerge -uaDN world, it only looks for changes/updates to the world
> file and what they depend on but only to a point.  There is a huge
> difference. 
> 
> Run them both and observe the difference.  For a dev, that difference
> can reveal something important. 

I understand that. But in the context of our conversation(static vs dynamic
linking), if i understand correctly portage, "emerge -e @world" rebuild all
static-linked packages and all dynamic-linked packages. It simply rebuild
*all* packages in any case, right? So, there is no difference between
calling "emerge -e @world" against dynamic-linked packages or static-linked
packages. Thus, i can't understand why we talk about "emerge -e" at all.
May be i understand something wrong.

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 04:44:10AM -0500, Dale wrote:
>
>> If you do a emerge -ea world, you will see changes that emerge -uaDN
>> world won't because it considers every package on the system.  When you
>> do emerge -uaDN world, it only looks for changes/updates to the world
>> file and what they depend on but only to a point.  There is a huge
>> difference. 
>>
>> Run them both and observe the difference.  For a dev, that difference
>> can reveal something important. 
> I understand that. But in the context of our conversation(static vs dynamic
> linking), if i understand correctly portage, "emerge -e @world" rebuild all
> static-linked packages and all dynamic-linked packages. It simply rebuild
> *all* packages in any case, right? So, there is no difference between
> calling "emerge -e @world" against dynamic-linked packages or static-linked
> packages. Thus, i can't understand why we talk about "emerge -e" at all.
> May be i understand something wrong.
>


I've had times where software would not work correctly.  Even after
searching with google, asking on this list and other means of tying to
figure out why, nothing is found.  There is no obvious reason for the
software not to work.  Even re-emerging the package doesn't help any. 
When I run into that, I run emerge -e world in order to rebuild every
package, regardless of how or even if it uses linking in any way. 
Almost every time I do that, the software starts working.  Obviously,
something was broken.  Odds are, something wasn't built against a
library correctly or some sort of linking was broken.

Also, I've ran emerge -e world after doing a emerge -uaDN world and it
turn up a number of new packages or new updates to be done.  Sometimes,
emerge -uaDN doesn't catch everything.  Since Michael is a developer, he
likely does things we don't normally do or maybe ever do in order to
catch problems.  Some developers just take pride in what they do and try
to do it right and do every test they can to make sure things work as
they should.  Some are quite good at it.

You were the one who asked about emerge -e world.  I'm just trying to
give some possible reasons for it.  There's quite a few to chose from. 
I'm sure Michael could add a few more as well. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/23/20 5:44 AM, Dale wrote:
> lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 04:02:13AM -0500, Dale wrote:
>>> lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
>>>> Just interesting, why you need to sync every day?
>>>> And why you need emerge -e, if you can use emerge -auND?
>>> Might be because Michael is a Gentoo developer.  They have to sync a lot
>>> as they make changes to the tree. 
>> There is nothing to be done. He himself decided like that.
>> No one forced :-D.
> 
> You ever think that developers may have to do things us users don't? 
> All we do is use portage/emerge to update our systems.  They have to
> write or update ebuilds, test them, push them to the tree and then test
> them some more.  They also have to try to make sure the code it creates
> works.  All of that takes a lot of time and effort.  Things we don't see. 
> 

What it comes down to is that I have to `git pull` before I can `git push`.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[J. Roeleveld]

On 23 April 2020 11:26:08 CEST, lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:


>
>> The two commands do different things.  Using emerge -e calculates
>> rebuilding every package while emerge -auDN only looks for certain
>> updates.  Each can be useful even if not allowed to complete.
>
>I know about it. I didn't understand why in usual case we need to
>do everytime emerge -e, instead of emerge -uND. But if we talk about os
>developer - it's clear(but why *everytime* emerge -e?).


Because  normal emerge ends up being similar to an "emerge -e" if everything is statically linked as everything needs to be rebuild, not just the dependencies.

--
Joost


-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 05:20:23PM +0200, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On 23 April 2020 11:26:08 CEST, lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> >I know about it. I didn't understand why in usual case we need to
> >do everytime emerge -e, instead of emerge -uND. But if we talk about os
> >developer - it's clear(but why *everytime* emerge -e?).
> 
> Because  normal emerge ends up being similar to an "emerge -e" if everything is statically linked as everything needs to be rebuild, not just the dependencies.

I understand. But why we talk about "emerge -e", if we don't talk about
"everything is statically linked", just about some packages,
concretely - portage.

And i don't think that "emerge -uND == emerge -e" even if everything is
statically linked and some package like openssl is changed. Yes, this is
larger packages set, than with dynamic linking, but not all. But in any
case it doesn't matter, because nobody talk about "everything is statically
linked".

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 02:33:45PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> If you statically link more than a few things, this is emerge -e @world
>  twenty times a day.

Hm :-D. And why it should be so? I run emerge one time in a week.
If there are any changes in a dependancy of some package, why
it can't be rebuild in the same emerge call?


-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Consus]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 02:19:19PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> How do you plan to update all of your programs when there's a security
> vulnerability in, say, OpenSSL?

emerge -1 @world of course :D

By the way, Rust does support dynamic linking (to a degree), but does
not have (yet, I pray) stable ABI. So what's current Gentoo team
consensus on security updates? Will there be Cargo.lock metadata that
will allows portage to automatically rebuild against newer library
versions?

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 2:24 PM, Consus wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 02:19:19PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>> How do you plan to update all of your programs when there's a security
>> vulnerability in, say, OpenSSL?
> 
> emerge -1 @world of course :D
> 
> By the way, Rust does support dynamic linking (to a degree), but does
> not have (yet, I pray) stable ABI. So what's current Gentoo team
> consensus on security updates? Will there be Cargo.lock metadata that
> will allows portage to automatically rebuild against newer library
> versions?
> 

Rust packages get no security updates. Neither do Go packages. That's
what I'm screaming about in those threads on gentoo-dev that you singled
out in your original post =)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Consus]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 02:38:40PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> Rust packages get no security updates. Neither do Go packages. That's
> what I'm screaming about in those threads on gentoo-dev that you singled
> out in your original post =)

Oh... I was under the impression that $EGO_SUMS exists not only for
checksumming and distfiles downloading, but also for security updates.
Guess I was wrong.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 02:19:19PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> How do you plan to update all of your programs when there's a security
> vulnerability in, say, OpenSSL?

Hm. And why we need every package to be statically linked? I told just
that static linking is a good and useful feature. Moreover, what the
problem to rebuild all dependant packages? And yet, please don't tell
about this imaginary advantage of shared objects. Because, this is
in the same time and disadvantage too - we can just in ONE action supply a new
security vulnerability to ALL software that use openssl shared object.
Because all code has bugs :-). And if we talk about security code that
moment is significant and should be considered carefully.

So, we can say that for non-security software shared object can be
used thoughtlessly and everywhere. But even here it's not so simple.
Shared object is slow and consume more ram if we have many instances
of our software running than statically linked version(thanks to sharing
of common .text segments between all instances of a single program). And
plan9 experience told us that for something that used by many programs(like
openssl) it better to use services than shared object(in plan9 this implemented
with help of "file servers").

Shared object isn't a holly cow. And please let's not be fanatics.

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Jorge Almeida]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:18 PM Alessandro Barbieri
<lssndrbarbieri@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nothing should be statically linked, please stop spreading the disease.
>

Gee, maybe the musl project should commit suicide? If at least they
had read the vulgata consciously before starting the project...

> Il Mer 22 Apr 2020, 18:14 <lego12239@yandex.ru> ha scritto:

>>   portage must be in C and statically linked.
>>   python is a strange dependency.
>>

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Steven Lembark]

>   portage must be in C and statically linked.

Seems to argue in favor of a statically-linked dynamic language: The 
runtime compiler can be static with install scripts being a bit more 
malleable.

Main issue I can see with C is that most people today don't know how 
to manage memory; not enough of us left who really understand how 
malloc works :-) 

-- 
Steven Lembark                                      5725 Aylesboro Ave
Workhorse Computing                                Pittsburgh PA 15217
lembark@wrkhors.com                                    +1 888 359 3508

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 03:27:16PM -0500, Steven Lembark wrote:
> 
> >   portage must be in C and statically linked.
> 
> Seems to argue in favor of a statically-linked dynamic language: The 
> runtime compiler can be static with install scripts being a bit more 
> malleable.

The core of portage should be in C, imho. But it can be extendable
with hooks written in something simple like a bash.
It mustn't be a solid binary. It can be splitted into separate parts
with strict definitions of interaction and interface.

> Main issue I can see with C is that most people today don't know how 
> to manage memory; not enough of us left who really understand how 
> malloc works :-)

:-D This shouldn't be a problem, because developers of extension
modules/hooks(if they choose C for this) will use a something
like libportage with util and wrapper functions which will hide
all mallocs.

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

[gentoo-user] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: Is Gentoo dead?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2020-04-24, lego12239@yandex.ru <lego12239@yandex.ru> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 03:27:16PM -0500, Steven Lembark wrote:
>> 
>> >   portage must be in C and statically linked.
>> 
>> Seems to argue in favor of a statically-linked dynamic language: The 
>> runtime compiler can be static with install scripts being a bit more 
>> malleable.
>
> The core of portage should be in C, imho.

Why?  I've been running Gentoo on multiple machines (generally at
least 4 or 5) for 15+ years now.  I've never seen any problems that
could be attributed to the fact that portage isn't written in C.

--
Grant

[gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 01:34:39PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2020-04-24, lego12239@yandex.ru <lego12239@yandex.ru> wrote:
> > The core of portage should be in C, imho.
> 
> Why?  I've been running Gentoo on multiple machines (generally at
> least 4 or 5) for 15+ years now.  I've never seen any problems that
> could be attributed to the fact that portage isn't written in C.

I don't have such experience. I use gentoo/funtoo for a less period, but
on more machines(servers and desktops). And i catched one or two
(don't remember exactly) situations where emerge was broken.

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

[gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo dead?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2020-04-24, lego12239@yandex.ru <lego12239@yandex.ru> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 01:34:39PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2020-04-24, lego12239@yandex.ru <lego12239@yandex.ru> wrote:
>> > The core of portage should be in C, imho.
>> 
>> Why?  I've been running Gentoo on multiple machines (generally at
>> least 4 or 5) for 15+ years now.  I've never seen any problems that
>> could be attributed to the fact that portage isn't written in C.
>
> I don't have such experience. I use gentoo/funtoo for a less period, but
> on more machines(servers and desktops). And i catched one or two
> (don't remember exactly) situations where emerge was broken.

But was it broken _because_it_wasn't_written_in_C_?

I've written a _lot_ of C, and a _lot_ of Python over the years.  If
it were written in C, it would be broken worse and more often.

--
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 06:46:43PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2020-04-24, lego12239@yandex.ru <lego12239@yandex.ru> wrote:
> > I don't have such experience. I use gentoo/funtoo for a less period, but
> > on more machines(servers and desktops). And i catched one or two
> > (don't remember exactly) situations where emerge was broken.
> 
> But was it broken _because_it_wasn't_written_in_C_?

This is the incorrect question. But if it had less strange run-time
dependencies, this might not happend.

> I've written a _lot_ of C, and a _lot_ of Python over the years.  If
> it were written in C, it would be broken worse and more often.

Oh... Grant, i've written a _lot_ of C, a _lot_ of bash, a _lot_ of perl,
a _lot_ of pascal, a _lot_ of js, _enough_ of asm and etc over the years.
If any of that code was written in not the language it was written, it
would be broken worse and more often.

And this tells nothing about why one or another language could be
chosen for a given project.

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[inasprecali]

On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:22:39 +0300
lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> The core of portage should be in C, imho. But it can be extendable
> with hooks written in something simple like a bash.
> It mustn't be a solid binary. It can be splitted into separate parts
> with strict definitions of interaction and interface.
There is no rational reason for the core of Portage to be written in
C.

> :-D This shouldn't be a problem, because developers of extension
> modules/hooks(if they choose C for this) will use a something
> like libportage with util and wrapper functions which will hide
> all mallocs.
And you yourself gave a very good reason why.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 8:30 PM, inasprecali <inasprecali@disroot.org> wrote:

> There is no rational reason for the core of Portage to be written in
> C.

curious.. are you also cool if busybox was written
in python?

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Robert Bridge]

On 24 Apr 2020, at 18:37, Caveman Al Toraboran <toraboracaveman@protonmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Friday, April 24, 2020 8:30 PM, inasprecali <inasprecali@disroot.org> wrote:
> 
>> There is no rational reason for the core of Portage to be written in
>> C.
> 
> curious.. are you also cool if busybox was written
> in python?

The argument for a statically linked C portage is really two arguments: one about linking and a separate though slightly related argument about language choice.

Regarding the statically linked argument: while there is some justification for eliminating dependencies, unless and until your statically linked portage is going to include a minimal C computer capable of bootstrapping gcc and a toolchain, you are still going to have to deal with the risk of external components breaking.

Regarding the argument about language: portage should be written in whatever language the portage writers are most comfortable with. The benefits of any individual language are really going to be less than the benefits of a tool that mostly works with developers who are willing to support it. 

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 06:30:25PM +0200, inasprecali wrote:
> There is no rational reason for the core of Portage to be written in
> C.

There are more than one rational reasons to do so.

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Ashley Dixon]

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On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 09:08:31PM +0300, lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 06:30:25PM +0200, inasprecali wrote:
> > There is no rational reason for the core of Portage to be written in
> > C.
> 
> There are more than one rational reasons to do so.

Such as ?

Portage builds complex models in memory, so an object-oriented language would be
the  obvious  choice:  should  that  be  C++  or  some  other  O.O.\   language.

Regardless,  this  should  probably  become  a  new  topic  on   another   list.
gentoo-user  seems  inappropriate  for  this  discussion,  especially  when  the
collaborators aren't even bothering to remove the [OBORONA-SPAM] tags  from  the
subject line before sending (at the  expense  of  the  cleanliness  of  everyone
else's inbox).

-- 

Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk

2A9A 4117
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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 12:27 AM, Steven Lembark <lembark@wrkhors.com> wrote:

> Main issue I can see with C is that most people today don't know how
> to manage memory; not enough of us left who really understand how
> malloc works :-)

i find it very hard to believe this.  because,
fundamentally, the concept of malloc/free is the
same concept that we expect a 5 years old kid to
know.

e.g. we tell kids ``return all balls back into the
bucket before you leave the room'', which is
exactly the concept of malloc/free.

probably we can even train monkeys to do the same
(return all taken balls back before leaving).

so i really can't believe that we have devolved in
such a way where malloc/free suddenly has became a
hard concept for homo sapiens.

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Ashley Dixon]

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On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 04:37:43PM +0000, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
> so i really can't believe that we have devolved in
> such a way where malloc/free suddenly has became a
> hard concept for homo sapiens.

You'd  be  surprised  how  much  shocking  code  is  out  there,  especially  in
proprietary  products  (the  Valve   Steam   Client   is   a   prime   example).

In general, reasons for memory-management-incompetence fall into  the  following
categories:

        (a) Programmers forget.  For experienced and skilled developers, this is
                likely the most common cause of malloc-free mismatches.   I  was
                programming in C a few years before I ever touched a computer (I
                bought/stole Kernighan and Ritchie from the  local  library  and
                wrote out code-listings with pencil and paper), and to this  day
                still  occasionally  forget  to  free   everything   I   malloc.
                Thankfully, in the days of dynamic code-analysis tools  such  as
                Valgrind,   these    problems---amongst    other    hard-to-spot
                issues---become easy fixes.

        (b) Programmers don't care, because it is assumed the  operating  system
                will do it for them.  I have heard this one  quite  a  bit  from
                people trying to justify their horribly  written  code.   Often,
                with people who make this argument, the malloc-free mismatch  is
                the least of their problems, however in the days of  intelligent
                operating system-level memory-management seen  in  modern  Linux
                kernels, some programmers seem to take the hard work  of  kernel
                developers  as   a   free   pass   to   be   messy   themselves.

        (c) Programmers don't care, because the code means nothing to  them.   I
                have never worked as a professional programmer, so  I  can  only
                speculate, but from conversations  with  veteran  developers  at
                large companies such as Intel and Microsoft, it seems as  though
                the general morale amongst older developers can drop hugely. Why
                bother optimising or  thoroughly  testing  code  when  it's  not
                yours, and you don't really care  about  the  company  for  whom
                you're developing ?

        (d) Programmers are genuinely unaware of the importance of freeing their
                malloc'd  objects.   With  the  abundance  of  terrible  on-line
                tutorials, written by teachers that seem to devote themselves to
                teaching the worst practices possible, I've seen  an  influx  of
                programmers who are simply unaware of the  need  to  free  their
                memory pools.  It takes less than a minute of on-line  searching
                to find a popular tutorial on some pretty  website  which  shows
                code leaking memory.

So yes, it is easy to understand, but whether people _care_ or even know in  the
first place is entirely up to them.

-- 

Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk

2A9A 4117
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Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Kent Fredric]

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On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:14:55 +0300
lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:

>  portage must be in C and statically linked.

Do you want Segfaults?

Because that's how you get segfaults :p.

Maybe Rust or something like it, but I don't really trust our capacity
to implement something this complicated in C.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 11:31:57PM +1200, Kent Fredric wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:14:55 +0300
> lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:
> 
> >  portage must be in C and statically linked.
> 
> Do you want Segfaults?

Certainly no :-). Like any other :-).

> Because that's how you get segfaults :p.

No-no :-). Segfaults we get when we program drunk or tired.
Just stop drinking, get enough sleep and test you code as usual(like
with any other language).

> Maybe Rust or something like it, but I don't really trust our capacity
> to implement something this complicated in C.

You have lost faith in people ;-).

-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Kent Fredric]

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On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 18:57:47 +0300
lego12239@yandex.ru wrote:

> You have lost faith in people ;-).

Only Torvalds can write Segfault free code.

Everyone else tries hard, and eventually get beaten into submission by
GCC and UB.

( Yes, I'm being a little hyperbolic, but the test of time has shown
how hard it is to write safe code in C even by those who seem to know
what they're doing. And that's not just segfaults, but non-failing
exploits by breaking memory buffers. Heartbleed for example.  You
really gotta ask yourself how many significant vulnerabilities out
there take root from the fact they're implemented in C somewhere, and C
gave you no compiler safety insurance )

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[lego12239]

On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 03:33:58AM +1200, Kent Fredric wrote:
> Only Torvalds can write Segfault free code.
> 
> Everyone else tries hard, and eventually get beaten into submission by
> GCC and UB.
> 
> ( Yes, I'm being a little hyperbolic, but the test of time has shown
> how hard it is to write safe code in C even by those who seem to know
> what they're doing. And that's not just segfaults, but non-failing
> exploits by breaking memory buffers. Heartbleed for example.  You
> really gotta ask yourself how many significant vulnerabilities out
> there take root from the fact they're implemented in C somewhere, and C
> gave you no compiler safety insurance )

portage doesn't require to use some complex code for implementation.
And it is not a daemon that running 24/7. These fears do not apply to
him in such form.
Everything will be fine :-)! 


-- 
Олег Неманов (Oleg Nemanov)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 4/22/20 11:22 AM, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 11:01 PM, Consus <consus@ftml.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, mgorny likes to do some provocative stuff like forking Portage.
>> patching P*****E is heretic, and forking it is
>> outright blasphemous.
>>
> For everyone complaining about how long emerge @world takes, and about
> the incomprehensible error messages -- this fork was a step towards
> fixing that. Portage does some slow, unpredictable, undocumented magic
> when resolving dependencies that it never should have done in the first
> place. Developers using portage then make commits that appear to work
> with portage, but won't work in any other PMS-compliant package manager,
> and often don't work in portage itself when given slightly different
> command-line options.
>
> Portage was forked because the current maintainers insist on leaving it
> broken to "avoid the phone calls." There are still problems, but this
> way people don't realize they're portage's fault.
>
>


Some may recall my thread about emerge only using one core when doing
it's build list.  As was discussed in that thread, it would be really
difficult to build that list in pretty much any language because it just
isn't set up to do that, the tree itself it seems.  While I'd like
emerge to be able to use more than one core, it may be faster but it
might also fall more often to which would waste more time than using
multiple cores would save.  In other words, a lot of work with little or
no benefit.

Didn't Firefox do this a couple years ago?  Start basically from scratch
and start over with new code?  I seem to recall them doing that so it
could use more than one core and other things.  It lead to all the
add-ons being redone as well.  I recall a lot of fussing about that. 

While it would be nice, could it even be done?  Would it be easier to
just start over with a new tree, new emerge/portage commands and all? 
Bigger question, who's the person with idiot stamped on their forehead
that would be willing to do all that without knowing it would even
work?  ROFL 

These Gentoo dead threads get interesting pretty fast. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/22/20 1:29 PM, Dale wrote:
> 
> Some may recall my thread about emerge only using one core when doing
> it's build list.  As was discussed in that thread, it would be really
> difficult to build that list in pretty much any language because it just
> isn't set up to do that, the tree itself it seems.  While I'd like
> emerge to be able to use more than one core, it may be faster but it
> might also fall more often to which would waste more time than using
> multiple cores would save.  In other words, a lot of work with little or
> no benefit.
> 

Dependency resolution is indeed a (formally) hard problem. Solving the
traveling salesman problem is also hard. Solving the traveling salesman
problem while being punched in the face is even harder. When I complain
about portage being slow, what I mean is that I want to stop being
punched in the face so that I can concentrate all of my energy on the
underlying hard problem.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 4/22/20 1:29 PM, Dale wrote:
>> Some may recall my thread about emerge only using one core when doing
>> it's build list.  As was discussed in that thread, it would be really
>> difficult to build that list in pretty much any language because it just
>> isn't set up to do that, the tree itself it seems.  While I'd like
>> emerge to be able to use more than one core, it may be faster but it
>> might also fall more often to which would waste more time than using
>> multiple cores would save.  In other words, a lot of work with little or
>> no benefit.
>>
> Dependency resolution is indeed a (formally) hard problem. Solving the
> traveling salesman problem is also hard. Solving the traveling salesman
> problem while being punched in the face is even harder. When I complain
> about portage being slow, what I mean is that I want to stop being
> punched in the face so that I can concentrate all of my energy on the
> underlying hard problem.
>
>

I'll freely admit that my knowledge of the inner workings of
emerge/portage is tiny.  Even with what little I know, I'd hate to know
I had to do what emerge does with paper and pencil.  I suspect that
upgrading one package that has even just a few dependencies would be a
very slow and repetitive process.  Doing a major upgrade that is maybe a
one month jump, complete with several KDE upgrades, it could take weeks
to do all that by hand.  When people say magic is what emerge does, it
is likely closer than some think.  The only thing that isn't magic, the
error output. 

I feel sorry for the person/people who actually write the code for
emerge.  Heck, making a ebuild from scratch is likely bad enough.  I
can't imagine tinkering with emerge itself. 

Thank goodness it isn't me.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 9:34 PM, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Dependency resolution is indeed a (formally) hard problem. Solving the
> traveling salesman problem is also hard. Solving the traveling salesman
> problem while being punched in the face is even harder. When I complain
> about portage being slow, what I mean is that I want to stop being
> punched in the face so that I can concentrate all of my energy on the
> underlying hard problem.

any reason why is it a traveling salesman problem,
and not just a tree walk with heuristics to handle
exceptions (e.g. cycles)?


my thought
----------

my thought is that dep. resolution is like walking
down a tree, and branch out depending on the USE
flags -- for this, imo the sympt. run-time
complexity should be approximately O(log n), where
n = number of packages in portage.

except that some of its leaves go back to a branch
(circular dependencies).  here, we can add
heuristics/workarounds when cycles are detected.

how common is it to stumble upon cycles in a
single dependency resolution run?  let's say it
happens S many times per run.

so in overall, i think, it should be O(log n + S).

since it can be seen as a tree, imo it is very
easy to distribute the computation across several
cores, even for a single package dep. resolution.
e.g. create threads upon branching in the tree
until MAX_THRD reached.

of course all in C, statically-linked (minimum
run-time dep. for emerge).  i don't see why we
need fancy stuff like python.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Jones]

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On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 1:15 PM Caveman Al Toraboran <
toraboracaveman@protonmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 9:34 PM, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Dependency resolution is indeed a (formally) hard problem. Solving the
> > traveling salesman problem is also hard. Solving the traveling salesman
> > problem while being punched in the face is even harder. When I complain
> > about portage being slow, what I mean is that I want to stop being
> > punched in the face so that I can concentrate all of my energy on the
> > underlying hard problem.
>
> any reason why is it a traveling salesman problem,
> and not just a tree walk with heuristics to handle
> exceptions (e.g. cycles)?
>
>

You can see more information about the portage dependency solver situation
with this mailing list post:

https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/40f9585ba6a9850eb82853d945d608eb

The github repository in question is here:
https://github.com/HyVar/gentoo_to_mspl/

Note: I have nothing to do with this project, I just remembered the mailing
list post, and thought it was a good idea.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, at 14:14, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 9:34 PM, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > Dependency resolution is indeed a (formally) hard problem. Solving the
> > traveling salesman problem is also hard. Solving the traveling salesman
> > problem while being punched in the face is even harder. When I complain
> > about portage being slow, what I mean is that I want to stop being
> > punched in the face so that I can concentrate all of my energy on the
> > underlying hard problem.
> 
> any reason why is it a traveling salesman problem,
> and not just a tree walk with heuristics to handle
> exceptions (e.g. cycles)?
> 

If it's so easy, why don't you implement it? /s

Sorry for being a little glib but every couple months I go through this thought process:

1. Wow, portage is slow
2. I can make this faster, it can't be that hard
3. ...wow, nevermind, it is really hard
4. Thank you portage maintainers!!!!!

> 
> my thought
> ----------
> 
> my thought is that dep. resolution is like walking
> down a tree, and branch out depending on the USE
> flags -- for this, imo the sympt. run-time
> complexity should be approximately O(log n), where
> n = number of packages in portage.

I don't think it's O(log n). Roughly, for 1 package portage has to make the full dep
tree, solve all the constraints to resolve to actual packages that can be installed,
and order and merge the tree into a single branch of packages to install. I'm
probably missing some steps and obviously that's not a rigorous explanation but
it's at least O(n) where n is the total number of dependencies.

> except that some of its leaves go back to a branch
> (circular dependencies).  here, we can add
> heuristics/workarounds when cycles are detected.

Cycles make it even more complicated, and I'm not up on the latest algorithms
to resolve these and know how fast they are.

Speeding up portage would be a fun project but it's less important
that portage being correct.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 1:03 AM, Alec Ten Harmsel <alec@alectenharmsel.com> wrote:

> If it's so easy, why don't you implement it? /s

because busy and got better things in life.

but what is your point?

1. are you trying to get to know me a bit closer?
2. or are you trying to indirectly a claim that
   making portage faster is too hard?

if (1) then off-topic.  if (2) then you're
committing a logical fallacy.  some version of
appeal to majority?  hence your claim is
unsubstantiated, and is deleted from space thanks
to occam's razor.

if it was too hard for most people in the past, it
doesn't mean that it is hard for everyone else.

not saying that your claim is wrong.  but saying
that your tool to show that claim is not working.

not saying that your claim is right either.  it's
so far floating somewhere in the ``unknown''
region (until a proof is presented; not a logical
fallacy).


> Sorry for being a little glib but every couple months I go through this thought process:
>
> 1.  Wow, portage is slow
> 2.  I can make this faster, it can't be that hard
> 3.  ...wow, nevermind, it is really hard
> 4.  Thank you portage maintainers!!!!!

if your point is to share history, thanks.  else:
logical fallacy (read above).


> I don't think it's O(log n). Roughly, for 1 package portage has to make the full dep
> tree, solve all the constraints to resolve to actual packages that can be installed,
> and order and merge the tree into a single branch of packages to install. I'm
> probably missing some steps and obviously that's not a rigorous explanation but
> it's at least O(n) where n is the total number of dependencies.

not mutually exclusive.  your n (number of deps)
is different than my n (number of packages in
portage).  e.g. i think that :

    O(your n) = O(log(my n))

i think the real trick is to split portage into
two separate parts:

1. index:  pre-compiled indexed global dependency
   graph.   this should allow efficient jumping
   into the right spot of the graph to efficiently
   walk around to meet the dependencies based on
   constraints (e.g. USE flags, versions).

   imo this can do the dependency resolution that
   emerge does in 45 seconds in less than 3
   seconds.

2. scripts to carry out the compile/installation.

currently portage has (1) and (2) mixed into a
single directory-based structure containing files
in a format that is not efficient for graph
walking, and uses the wrong tool (python).


> Speeding up portage would be a fun project but it's less important
> that portage being correct.

yes, the speed issue is not a problem (more like a
psychological issue).  but that's misleading.
portage's problems is beyond the timing issue.
e.g.:

1. the fact that emerge uses python is horrible.
   ideally a package manager must have least
   run-time dependencies possible.  but now,
   emerge is based on python, which limits our
   freedom in upgrading python versions in the
   fear of wrecking emerge (and getting stuck,
   needing manual attention).  which is why i
   think ideally new emerge should be some
   statically linked compiled binary.

2. i'm sure smart people can point out better
   reasons about how emerge is wrong.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/23/20 2:14 PM, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 9:34 PM, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> Dependency resolution is indeed a (formally) hard problem. Solving the
>> traveling salesman problem is also hard. Solving the traveling salesman
>> problem while being punched in the face is even harder. When I complain
>> about portage being slow, what I mean is that I want to stop being
>> punched in the face so that I can concentrate all of my energy on the
>> underlying hard problem.
> 
> any reason why is it a traveling salesman problem,
> and not just a tree walk with heuristics to handle
> exceptions (e.g. cycles)?
> 

It's not outwardly a traveling salesman problem, but it's on the same
level of difficulty. If you look at RDEPEND in an ebuild, you'll see a
bunch of entries like

  cat/pkg <= version

As the package manager recursively processes all of the ebuilds in the
dependency graph, you wind up with a goal like

  maximize the versions of all installed packages
  subject to
    cat/pkg1 <= version1
    cat/pkg1 >  version2
    cat/pkg2 >= version3
             ...

That looks a lot like a linear programming problem, but package versions
are discrete. So ignoring all of the details, it's believable that we
have an integer programming problem, which is NP-complete.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 1:23 AM, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> It's not outwardly a traveling salesman problem, but it's on the same
> level of difficulty. If you look at RDEPEND in an ebuild, you'll see a
> bunch of entries like
>
> cat/pkg <= version
>
> As the package manager recursively processes all of the ebuilds in the
> dependency graph, you wind up with a goal like
>
> maximize the versions of all installed packages
> subject to
> cat/pkg1 <= version1
> cat/pkg1 > version2
>
>     cat/pkg2 >= version3
>
>              ...
>
>
> That looks a lot like a linear programming problem, but package versions
> are discrete. So ignoring all of the details, it's believable that we
> have an integer programming problem, which is NP-complete.

i'm dumb, and don't fully understand this, but i
think i found something interesting:

[1] http://www.aimsciences.org/article/doi/10.3934/jimo.2014.10.557

i wonder, can gradient descent be used to find
optimal portage solution?  didn't read beyond the
abstract in [1], but from the abstract it seems
doable (i.e. integer programming solvable by
gradient descent).  anyone please correct me if
i'm wrong.

if doing it with gradient descent is doable, then
i wonder, can emerge one day be GPU accelerated?

how coold would it be?  :D  ``world's 1st GPU
accelerated package manager''!

of course it is not a pressing issue, but i think
it is a very fun puzzle to think about in my free
time (which is most of my life these days), and i
think some here may like contemplating such
shameless thoughts.

rgrds,
cm.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 4/26/20 10:23 AM, Caveman Al Toraboran wrote:
>>
>> That looks a lot like a linear programming problem, but package versions
>> are discrete. So ignoring all of the details, it's believable that we
>> have an integer programming problem, which is NP-complete.
> 
> i'm dumb, and don't fully understand this, but i
> think i found something interesting:
> 
> [1] http://www.aimsciences.org/article/doi/10.3934/jimo.2014.10.557
> 
> i wonder, can gradient descent be used to find
> optimal portage solution?  didn't read beyond the
> abstract in [1], but from the abstract it seems
> doable (i.e. integer programming solvable by
> gradient descent).  anyone please correct me if
> i'm wrong.
> 

I think something like this is the right approach in the long run. Right
now, portage is using a bunch of heuristics in a totally unprincipled
way to find a solution that works.

If we can turn the dependency resolution problem into some abstract
mathematical form, then solving it becomes "not our problem," and we can
reap the benefits as new theoretical techniques are incorporated into
the existing solvers (you wouldn't want to write your own).

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Steven Lembark]

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:01:45 +0300
Consus <consus@ftml.net> wrote:

> Yeah, mgorny likes to do some provocative stuff like forking Portage.

Why the hell not?

Once you have a source-based distro the package manager can be a
matter of choice also -- so long as it accepts the existing 
package constructs as input. 

As pointed out earlier, Gentoo hasn't forked often, it's 
configurable enough that noone needs to fork it to have the
results meet their needs.

Pretty much the only thing we all have to have in common is the
portage source packages; after that there could easily be 
mutliple installers. If you use an offball product you'd have
to rely on whomever hacked it to get support -- vs. hitting up 
the usual gentoo list for help -- but if satisfies your needs
using "frobnicate install..." why would having second package
manager be all that bad?

-- 
Steven Lembark                                      5725 Aylesboro Ave
Workhorse Computing                                Pittsburgh PA 15217
lembark@wrkhors.com                                    +1 888 359 3508

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Consus]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 03:10:28PM -0500, Steven Lembark wrote:
> Why the hell not?

I'm not saying not, I was all for it.

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Alexandru N. Barloiu]

On Tue, 2020-04-21 at 19:58 +0300, Consus wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> In all honesty, is Gentoo dead? Gentoo-Dev is filled with passive
> aggression (though being developers-only mailing list), Github bot
> warns
> you that contributing new packages to the main repo is low priority
> and
> probably no one will help you, and even distribution kernel is not an
> official thing, but a desperate attempt of someone to fix things.


gentoo is held on together by passion. well, not all of gentoo. MY
gentoo.

it was never going to be a mainstream distro. might have been a fad for
a while, for some people able to follow guides. but people who use this
distro... do not need guides. 

it is what is. a collection of hacks for hackers. gentoo doesn't and
shouldn't compete in a popularity contest. but on the other hand, I
don't plan to stop using it even if the devs magically dissapear over
night. I'll go back to lfs before I'd go back to any binary distro. and
I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one.

people who actually choose gentoo for what it is, do not need their
hand held. do not whine. and certainly don't care about "the number of
this" or the "number of that" or "how great that would be". you don't
like it? it's prolly not for you. 


axl

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Kent Fredric]

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On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:58:03 +0300
Consus <consus@ftml.net> wrote:

> Github bot warns
> you that contributing new packages to the main repo is low priority and
> probably no one will help you,

Maybe that's a misinterpretation.

Gentoo workflow isn't oriented around Pull requests, Pull requests are
generally a mechanism used to allow users and other non-developers to
"assist".

People who are dev's generally don't use PR's for their work, although
there are a few exceptions to this because the PR facility allows for
various "pre-testing" and "I'm not the guy in charge of this, so I
better let the guy who is look at it first" situations.

And somewhat as a result, contributions via the PR mechanism *are* low
priority. Not because nobody is around to do it, but because either we
have more important things to do, *or*, sometimes there are things we
must do *before* handling PR's.

Sometimes even people filing bugs for "please update this" serves no
purpose, because we're probably already aware there's an update, its
just a matter of time constraints and priorities.

I would argue we're actually more on top of, and aware of, things that
need to be done than users might imagine. Its just largely invisible
because you have to go *looking* for it, and you have to actually
communicate with dev's to really see what's going on, because
sometimes, its all in their head.

Just the perception from a portage consumption point *may* look like a
thing is stagnated "because no recent changes".

If you were to look at portage, you might think no work is happening on
the rust front, beyond the language itself being there.

But lots of research and experimental work is happening on overlays,
working out how to do a thing right, before burdening users with it.

( And there's also the fact that properly reviewing a PR often requires
the same work investment to merely verify it, as if you were to do the
work yourself without a PR, which serves as a bit of a disincentive to
care about PRs )

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[james]

On 4/21/20 12:58 PM, Consus wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> In all honesty, is Gentoo dead? Gentoo-Dev is filled with passive
> aggression (though being developers-only mailing list), Github bot warns
> you that contributing new packages to the main repo is low priority and
> probably no one will help you, and even distribution kernel is not an
> official thing, but a desperate attempt of someone to fix things.
> 


With all respect, you are clueless, but trying to be polite. If your 
assessment was correct, then answer these questions, OK?

Why would the actual author of one of the hottest codes in the world, 
wireguard, be that actual maintainer on gentoo?


Gentoo spawns CoreOS(smarty pants CTO) and long time gentooer. CoreOS 
purchase by Redhat, to give them a future and IBM purchasing Redhat, 
just to get legal rights to the gentoo heritage?


Greg X, is one of THE chief gentoo kernel devs, and still loves and uses 
Gentoo.?


You are among GREATNESS in the computational world. I could list 
hundreds of the world's top technologies in a wide variety of fields, 
that have and still use Gentoo.
Like the worlds number one RF designer; but I wont.


You are fucking lazy. READ as the entire history and tree(s) are there. 
BUT, first do a deep dive on C, although not currently popular, before 
making such stupid statements. PLEASE.


Also, find me a linux distro rigorously supports (and engourages) both 
systemd, OpenRC and systems without either?   Can you name one.


Gentoo is for experts, and those that aspire, through many years of hard 
work, to become C/unix/kernel/any-code type of experts.

YOU, making this statement, are just LAZY!

get real,
James Horton, PE

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Fernando Reyes]

On 4/22/20 12:24 PM, james wrote:
> 
> Gentoo is for experts, and those that aspire, through many years of hard 
> work, to become C/unix/kernel/any-code type of experts.
> 
> YOU, making this statement, are just LAZY!

Bravo, and Gentoo can't be dead because it's immortal.

likewhoa

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Caveman Al Toraboran]

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 10:04 PM, Fernando Reyes <email@missionaccomplish.com> wrote:

> Bravo, and Gentoo can't be dead because it's immortal.
>
> likewhoa


no, that's not it.  let me explain.

gentoo is indeed dead.  specifically, gentoo's
death happened some time in 2007.

then, in the 2nd of march 2008, gentoo became
undead [1].

it's very difficult to kill undeads (try it in
dark souls).  technically they are dead already.

but i think i know how to finally free gentoo from
the undead realm and let it finally rest in peace.
here is how:

    * something better than gentoo should come.
      e.g. something source-based and
      comprehensive.

so far, there is no better solution than gentoo
for the requirements that gentoo satisfies.
therefore, gentoo cannot be freed from the
"undread" realm to finally rest in peace.

if you want to set gentoo free, please tell us 1
source-based distro that is as comprehensive as
gentoo (or more).  then we cen celebrate gentoo's
freedom from the undead realm right now.


------------
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux#History

rgrds,
cm.

RE: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Pengcheng Xu]

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Sorry for possible necroposting, but I'm pretty interested what's happening in this thread, as there seems to be detailed discussion on topics under this "Is Gentoo dead?" clickbait subject.  The whole conversation list does not even fit in a single screen...  Would someone kindly provide some clue what's going on?

Regards,
-- 
Pengcheng Xu
https://jsteward.moe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Consus <consus@ftml.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 12:58 AM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In all honesty, is Gentoo dead? Gentoo-Dev is filled with passive aggression
> (though being developers-only mailing list), Github bot warns you that
> contributing new packages to the main repo is low priority and probably no one
> will help you, and even distribution kernel is not an official thing, but a
> desperate attempt of someone to fix things.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Pengcheng Xu wrote:
> Sorry for possible necroposting, but I'm pretty interested what's happening in this thread, as there seems to be detailed discussion on topics under this "Is Gentoo dead?" clickbait subject.  The whole conversation list does not even fit in a single screen...  Would someone kindly provide some clue what's going on?
>
> Regards,


Well, it is about Gentoo and the perception someone had that Gentoo is
dying, which has been claimed for many, many years now.  Then the thread
started taking off into other directions.  It got slightly off topic,
very off topic a couple times and then back on topic.  These threads
tend to bring out quite a few responses and most can't resist posting,
myself included in that as well.  I might add, there threads are usually
started by a newcomer and typically they disappear when they realize how
active Gentoo really is.  The OP for this thread posted for a couple
days and I don't see any posts after that.  Most likely, unsubscribed
and long gone. 

If you enjoy using Gentoo, or if you don't, if you skip this thread, you
won't be missing a whole lot.  I don't recall any breaking news or life
saving tips in it.  ROFL

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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RE: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Pengcheng Xu]

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That seems reasonable, people always tend to bring in new ideas when trying to prove what they're saying.  I'm just amazed by the activeness of the community :)  It's great to know that I'm not missing something useful if not going through the discussion, so thanks!

Regards,
-- 
Pengcheng Xu
https://jsteward.moe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2020 11:40 AM
> To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?
> 
> Pengcheng Xu wrote:
> 
> 
> 	Sorry for possible necroposting, but I'm pretty interested what's
> happening in this thread, as there seems to be detailed discussion on topics
> under this "Is Gentoo dead?" clickbait subject.  The whole conversation list
> does not even fit in a single screen...  Would someone kindly provide some clue
> what's going on?
> 
> 	Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it is about Gentoo and the perception someone had that Gentoo is dying,
> which has been claimed for many, many years now.  Then the thread started taking
> off into other directions.  It got slightly off topic, very off topic a couple
> times and then back on topic.  These threads tend to bring out quite a few responses
> and most can't resist posting, myself included in that as well.  I might add,
> there threads are usually started by a newcomer and typically they disappear
> when they realize how active Gentoo really is.  The OP for this thread posted
> for a couple days and I don't see any posts after that.  Most likely, unsubscribed
> and long gone.
> 
> If you enjoy using Gentoo, or if you don't, if you skip this thread, you won't
> be missing a whole lot.  I don't recall any breaking news or life saving tips
> in it.  ROFL
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Gerrit Kuehn]

On Wed, 6 May 2020 22:39:39 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you enjoy using Gentoo, or if you don't, if you skip this thread,
> you won't be missing a whole lot.  I don't recall any breaking news
> or life saving tips in it.  ROFL

What a nice comment to read when starting my day. Thanks! ;-)


cu
  Gerrit

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[hitachi303]

Am 07.05.2020 um 05:39 schrieb Dale:
> Well, it is about Gentoo and the perception someone had that Gentoo is 
> dying, which has been claimed for many, many years now.


Personally I like this graphic about gentoo being extinct.

https://linuxfiend.wordpress.com/2009/12/05/is-gentoo-dying/

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

hitachi303 wrote:
> Am 07.05.2020 um 05:39 schrieb Dale:
>> Well, it is about Gentoo and the perception someone had that Gentoo
>> is dying, which has been claimed for many, many years now.
>
>
> Personally I like this graphic about gentoo being extinct.
>
> https://linuxfiend.wordpress.com/2009/12/05/is-gentoo-dying/
>
>


I wish it was big enough I could actually see it.  I'll dig out my
magnifying glass in a bit.  lol 

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Petr Vaněk]

On Thu, May 07, 2020 at 10:15:39AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> I'll dig out my magnifying glass in a bit.  lol 

https://linuxfiend.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/gentoo10-19.jpg

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Petr Vaněk wrote:
> On Thu, May 07, 2020 at 10:15:39AM -0500, Dale wrote:
>> I'll dig out my magnifying glass in a bit.  lol 
> https://linuxfiend.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/gentoo10-19.jpg
>
>


Now that is better.  I tried clicking some stuff on the old link, even
tried ctrl + to increase the size, but nothing helped.  That's pretty
cute tho.  :-D

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Petr Vaněk]

On Thu, May 07, 2020 at 10:23:34AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> Petr Vaněk wrote:
> > On Thu, May 07, 2020 at 10:15:39AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> >> I'll dig out my magnifying glass in a bit.  lol 
> > https://linuxfiend.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/gentoo10-19.jpg
> 
> Now that is better.  I tried clicking some stuff on the old link, even
> tried ctrl + to increase the size, but nothing helped.
> cute tho.  :-D

I just removed ?w=525 from the original image link :)

Petr

Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[Dale]

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Petr Vaněk wrote:
> On Thu, May 07, 2020 at 10:23:34AM -0500, Dale wrote:
>> Petr Vaněk wrote:
>>> On Thu, May 07, 2020 at 10:15:39AM -0500, Dale wrote:
>>>> I'll dig out my magnifying glass in a bit.  lol 
>>> https://linuxfiend.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/gentoo10-19.jpg
>> Now that is better.  I tried clicking some stuff on the old link, even
>> tried ctrl + to increase the size, but nothing helped.
>> cute tho.  :-D
> I just removed ?w=525 from the original image link :)
>
> Petr
>
>

Well it sure helped these bad old eyes.  Sometimes I feel like this.  -_- 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Is Gentoo dead?

[james]

On 5/6/20 11:39 PM, Dale wrote:
> Pengcheng Xu wrote:
>> Sorry for possible necroposting, but I'm pretty interested what's happening in this thread, as there seems to be detailed discussion on topics under this "Is Gentoo dead?" clickbait subject.  The whole conversation list does not even fit in a single screen...  Would someone kindly provide some clue what's going on?
>>
>> Regards,
> 
> 
> Well, it is about Gentoo and the perception someone had that Gentoo is 
> dying, which has been claimed for many, many years now.� Then the thread 
> started taking off into other directions.� It got slightly off topic, 
> very off topic a couple times and then back on topic. These threads tend 
> to bring out quite a few responses and most can't resist posting, myself 
> included in that as well.� I might add, there threads are usually 
> started by a newcomer and typically they disappear when they realize how 
> active Gentoo really is.� The OP for this thread posted for a couple 
> days and I don't see any posts after that.� Most likely, unsubscribed 
> and long gone.
> 
> If you enjoy using Gentoo, or if you don't, if you skip this thread, you 
> won't be missing a whole lot.� I don't recall any breaking news or life 
> saving tips in it.� ROFL
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)� :-)


Spot on. Similarly, folks, mostly youngsters, have been predicting the 
death of 'C'. There are a multitude of reasons C is still the go to 
language and ought to be mandatory for folks to learn BEFORE any other 
language. C gives us freedom, and with C, there is no Unix, BSD, or 
linux, ymmv. Go read this before bashing an old computer scientist:

"Programming language C is back in the number one spot"

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/


So I wonder how many of the Gentoo naysayers, actually have written any 
significant code in C?  Pointer please.

Arguably the hottest piece of code, was written (mostly)
by a Gentoo aficionado: none other that Jason Donefeld,
in guess what language?

C

Gentoo is C centric, since the beginning, whilst enabling a plethora of 
other languages, that have their place and are, for the most part, 
wonderful.

Anyone attacks, or speaks poorly of Gentoo, is pretty much clueless. 
Last time I looked, it's still rated as one of the top Linux distros, of 
all time, when you consider a 20 year perspective. Today, Gentoo seeks 
to run off the lazy, the inept and those that want to trivialize 
computational complexities.Ubuntu, Mint and others are more well suited 
for the masses, the lazy and the inept.

Not to mention  Gentoo was the foundation of CoreOS.
CoreOS advance many 'hot swap kernel' tricks and was purchased by 
Redhat, as Traditional Redhat is arcane, crusty and bloated. IBM, on 
their deathbed, has purchased Redhat(basically a gentoo derivative now) 
and is failing in most of their other business dealings; because they 
lack real computer scientists in their upper management.

Gentoo was, always has, and is still 'kicking ass'; real coders know 
this, they just keep silent, cause they are MAKING MONEY, off of Gentoo. 
Gentoo Embedded is a whole other EMPIRE, where folks take credit for 
building products on embedded systems. GENTOO is still the world's 
greatest secret in computer science.

Here's a tidbit: The hacker, from the inside, that's right an IBM 
employee at Watson, used Gentoo to hack the shit out of AIX. That was at 
the point, the main reason, IBM abandoned that looser distro call AIX. 
Now IBM, via purchasing RedHat (coreOS <== Gentoo) has taken over 20 
years, to realize GENTOO is the greatest linux distro of all time.  So I 
cannot help but feel sorry, for the kids, that the universities do not 
teach C/Unix/BSD/Linux with any dose of credibility. New is sexy, but 
statistically, 99% of new fades, often rapidly. Just look at the 
bone-yard of linux distros and fancy programming languages.


The (IBM) stench is deep. 'Smarty Pants' has recently left his creation 
of CoreOS; I guess even the IBM stench was too much for even him, 
despite making millions and millions.....

GENTOO IS THE GREATEST DISTRO EVER! Only the original, historical unix 
distros come close. Unix is the real reason AT&T was broken up. All that 
other noise is just a smoke screen, financial maneuvering and  just big 
business. GTE and Honeywell quickly rolled their own 'unix', and the 
rest is history the universities do not teach, sadly. Don't even get me 
started on SunOS, and the evil that pursued those lawyers.


be blessed,
James