[gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[Majid Hussain]

hi there,
i'm blind and wanted to get started with gentoo.
what's accessibility like?
is there speech via orca the screen reader or sound on the minimal iso
via espeakup provided?
I red this document,
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Accessibility
which seembs to be up-to-date, is there a update on this?
not sure if this was the correct place to post my question?
i'm a complete newb with gentoo I would be greatfull for your assistence,
i'm looking for an adventure.
Majid


-- 
kind regards,
Majid Hussain

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[Ashley Dixon]

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> i'm blind and wanted to get started with gentoo.
> what's accessibility like?
> is there speech via orca the screen reader or sound on the minimal iso
> via espeakup provided?
> I red this document,
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Accessibility
> which seembs to be up-to-date, is there a update on this?

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 01:04:48PM +0100, Majid Hussain wrote:
> hi there,

Hi Majid, I hope you're well.

Have  you  visited  [1]  ?   It  is  a  community  of  Linux-focused  blind  and
visually-impaired users, such as yourself, who have formed a  community  out  of
building accessibility software; primarily screen-readers [2].

You'd probably have the  most  difficulty  on  the  initial  set-up,  as  Gentoo
installation takes place, almost entirely, in  the  tty,  before  you  have  any
opportunity to install X.  You could try running it  in  some  sort  of  virtual
machine and see if a screen-reader could parse the contents of the V.M.\ window.

> I'm a complete newb with gentoo I would be greatful for your assistance

How much prior Linux experience do you have ?  Do you know  of  a  screen-reader
that works well once you have got to the point of installing a window manager  ?

This is the ONE situation  under  which  I  would  recommend  GNOME,  as  it  is
generally the best with built-in accessibility features [3].   Unfortunately,  a
lot of the more niche W.M.s  (such  as  i3)  require  an  incredible  amount  of
tinkering (and often  changes  to  the  code-base)  to  introduce  any  sort  of
considering  for accessibility.

> I'm looking for an adventure.

Don't worry, all Gentoo users get a hell of an experience, blind  or  otherwise.
I'm sure you'll have an  incredible  amount  of  fun  using  this  distro.   ;-)

> not sure if this was the correct place to post my question?

gentoo-user is the  general  space  for  any  user-land  (non-developer)  issues
regarding Gentoo, so I doubt there are  any  problems  with  you  posting  here.
Everything from this list (like all  Gentoo  lists)  gets  archived  on-line  by
Gentoo at [4] and Google at [5], so in addition to solving  your  own  problems,
mailing lists provide the advantage of helping future users with similar issues.

There is also the `gentoo-accessibility` list [6], but  it's  been  dead  for  a
while.

(There are various other H.T.T.P.\ archiving  services,  such  as  M.Arc.   [7],
however  Gentoo  and  Google  are  the  most   popular   in   search   results.)

Hope this helps,
Ashley.

[1] http://www.linux-speakup.org/
[2] http://www.linux-speakup.org/spkguide.txt
[3] https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility
[4] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/
[5] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/linux.gentoo.user
[6] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-accessibility/
[7] https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-user

-- 

Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk

2A9A 4117
DA96 D18A
8A7B B0D2
A30E BF25
F290 A8AA


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Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[Majid Hussain]

hi there,
now er days, the mate desktop is considderd very accessible,
compared to gnome,
orca is the screen reader used when a gui is launched,
espeakup is the screen reader that is used on the tty before xorg and
friends are launched,
it's what debian uses on the net install image,
hence me asking if espeakup would be able to be added to an iso image?
unless there's away of building your own iso image from a non  gentoo system?
Majid

On 22/04/2020, Ashley Dixon <ash@suugaku.co.uk> wrote:
>> i'm blind and wanted to get started with gentoo.
>> what's accessibility like?
>> is there speech via orca the screen reader or sound on the minimal iso
>> via espeakup provided?
>> I red this document,
>> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Accessibility
>> which seembs to be up-to-date, is there a update on this?
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 01:04:48PM +0100, Majid Hussain wrote:
>> hi there,
>
> Hi Majid, I hope you're well.
>
> Have  you  visited  [1]  ?   It  is  a  community  of  Linux-focused  blind
> and
> visually-impaired users, such as yourself, who have formed a  community  out
>  of
> building accessibility software; primarily screen-readers [2].
>
> You'd probably have the  most  difficulty  on  the  initial  set-up,  as
> Gentoo
> installation takes place, almost entirely, in  the  tty,  before  you  have
> any
> opportunity to install X.  You could try running it  in  some  sort  of
> virtual
> machine and see if a screen-reader could parse the contents of the V.M.\
> window.
>
>> I'm a complete newb with gentoo I would be greatful for your assistance
>
> How much prior Linux experience do you have ?  Do you know  of  a
> screen-reader
> that works well once you have got to the point of installing a window
> manager  ?
>
> This is the ONE situation  under  which  I  would  recommend  GNOME,  as  it
>  is
> generally the best with built-in accessibility features [3].
> Unfortunately,  a
> lot of the more niche W.M.s  (such  as  i3)  require  an  incredible  amount
>  of
> tinkering (and often  changes  to  the  code-base)  to  introduce  any  sort
>  of
> considering  for accessibility.
>
>> I'm looking for an adventure.
>
> Don't worry, all Gentoo users get a hell of an experience, blind  or
> otherwise.
> I'm sure you'll have an  incredible  amount  of  fun  using  this  distro.
> ;-)
>
>> not sure if this was the correct place to post my question?
>
> gentoo-user is the  general  space  for  any  user-land  (non-developer)
> issues
> regarding Gentoo, so I doubt there are  any  problems  with  you  posting
> here.
> Everything from this list (like all  Gentoo  lists)  gets  archived  on-line
>  by
> Gentoo at [4] and Google at [5], so in addition to solving  your  own
> problems,
> mailing lists provide the advantage of helping future users with similar
> issues.
>
> There is also the `gentoo-accessibility` list [6], but  it's  been  dead
> for  a
> while.
>
> (There are various other H.T.T.P.\ archiving  services,  such  as  M.Arc.
> [7],
> however  Gentoo  and  Google  are  the  most   popular   in   search
> results.)
>
> Hope this helps,
> Ashley.
>
> [1] http://www.linux-speakup.org/
> [2] http://www.linux-speakup.org/spkguide.txt
> [3] https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility
> [4] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/
> [5] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/linux.gentoo.user
> [6] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-accessibility/
> [7] https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-user
>
> --
>
> Ashley Dixon
> suugaku.co.uk
>
> 2A9A 4117
> DA96 D18A
> 8A7B B0D2
> A30E BF25
> F290 A8AA
>
>


-- 
kind regards,
Majid Hussain

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[Majid Hussain]

hey,
sorry for being spammy,
what desktop enviroment is used on the live dvd iso?
gnome? mate?
does that have orca on it?
note,
speech-dispatcher and espeak-ng are required for things to function,
with pulse audio,
Majid

On 22/04/2020, Majid Hussain <mhussaincov93@gmail.com> wrote:
> hi there,
> now er days, the mate desktop is considderd very accessible,
> compared to gnome,
> orca is the screen reader used when a gui is launched,
> espeakup is the screen reader that is used on the tty before xorg and
> friends are launched,
> it's what debian uses on the net install image,
> hence me asking if espeakup would be able to be added to an iso image?
> unless there's away of building your own iso image from a non  gentoo
> system?
> Majid
>
> On 22/04/2020, Ashley Dixon <ash@suugaku.co.uk> wrote:
>>> i'm blind and wanted to get started with gentoo.
>>> what's accessibility like?
>>> is there speech via orca the screen reader or sound on the minimal iso
>>> via espeakup provided?
>>> I red this document,
>>> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Accessibility
>>> which seembs to be up-to-date, is there a update on this?
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 01:04:48PM +0100, Majid Hussain wrote:
>>> hi there,
>>
>> Hi Majid, I hope you're well.
>>
>> Have  you  visited  [1]  ?   It  is  a  community  of  Linux-focused
>> blind
>> and
>> visually-impaired users, such as yourself, who have formed a  community
>> out
>>  of
>> building accessibility software; primarily screen-readers [2].
>>
>> You'd probably have the  most  difficulty  on  the  initial  set-up,  as
>> Gentoo
>> installation takes place, almost entirely, in  the  tty,  before  you
>> have
>> any
>> opportunity to install X.  You could try running it  in  some  sort  of
>> virtual
>> machine and see if a screen-reader could parse the contents of the V.M.\
>> window.
>>
>>> I'm a complete newb with gentoo I would be greatful for your assistance
>>
>> How much prior Linux experience do you have ?  Do you know  of  a
>> screen-reader
>> that works well once you have got to the point of installing a window
>> manager  ?
>>
>> This is the ONE situation  under  which  I  would  recommend  GNOME,  as
>> it
>>  is
>> generally the best with built-in accessibility features [3].
>> Unfortunately,  a
>> lot of the more niche W.M.s  (such  as  i3)  require  an  incredible
>> amount
>>  of
>> tinkering (and often  changes  to  the  code-base)  to  introduce  any
>> sort
>>  of
>> considering  for accessibility.
>>
>>> I'm looking for an adventure.
>>
>> Don't worry, all Gentoo users get a hell of an experience, blind  or
>> otherwise.
>> I'm sure you'll have an  incredible  amount  of  fun  using  this
>> distro.
>> ;-)
>>
>>> not sure if this was the correct place to post my question?
>>
>> gentoo-user is the  general  space  for  any  user-land  (non-developer)
>> issues
>> regarding Gentoo, so I doubt there are  any  problems  with  you  posting
>> here.
>> Everything from this list (like all  Gentoo  lists)  gets  archived
>> on-line
>>  by
>> Gentoo at [4] and Google at [5], so in addition to solving  your  own
>> problems,
>> mailing lists provide the advantage of helping future users with similar
>> issues.
>>
>> There is also the `gentoo-accessibility` list [6], but  it's  been  dead
>> for  a
>> while.
>>
>> (There are various other H.T.T.P.\ archiving  services,  such  as  M.Arc.
>> [7],
>> however  Gentoo  and  Google  are  the  most   popular   in   search
>> results.)
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>> Ashley.
>>
>> [1] http://www.linux-speakup.org/
>> [2] http://www.linux-speakup.org/spkguide.txt
>> [3] https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility
>> [4] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/
>> [5] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/linux.gentoo.user
>> [6] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-accessibility/
>> [7] https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-user
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ashley Dixon
>> suugaku.co.uk
>>
>> 2A9A 4117
>> DA96 D18A
>> 8A7B B0D2
>> A30E BF25
>> F290 A8AA
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> kind regards,
> Majid Hussain
>


-- 
kind regards,
Majid Hussain

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[Mark Knecht]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:45 AM Majid Hussain <mhussaincov93@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> hi there,
> now er days, the mate desktop is considderd very accessible,
> compared to gnome,
> orca is the screen reader used when a gui is launched,
> espeakup is the screen reader that is used on the tty before xorg and
> friends are launched,
> it's what debian uses on the net install image,
> hence me asking if espeakup would be able to be added to an iso image?
> unless there's away of building your own iso image from a non  gentoo
system?
> Majid
>

Hi Majid,
   I know nothing about accessibility systems but the meat of installing
Gentoo is essentially just you executing a bunch of instructions inside of
a chroot. You can start with any distro that currently provides
accessibility for you, set aside some disk space, chroot into it and then
do the Gentoo install work there. If the distro you start with can read
what's going on in that terminal as well as the install instructions off
the web pages for this task then I think you should be good to go.

Hope this helps,
Mark

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Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[Majid Hussain]

hey there mark,
you are ausom!
it has cleared things up alot!
on the chroot what doo I need?
thanks,
Majid Hussain

On 22/04/2020, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:45 AM Majid Hussain <mhussaincov93@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> hi there,
>> now er days, the mate desktop is considderd very accessible,
>> compared to gnome,
>> orca is the screen reader used when a gui is launched,
>> espeakup is the screen reader that is used on the tty before xorg and
>> friends are launched,
>> it's what debian uses on the net install image,
>> hence me asking if espeakup would be able to be added to an iso image?
>> unless there's away of building your own iso image from a non  gentoo
> system?
>> Majid
>>
>
> Hi Majid,
>    I know nothing about accessibility systems but the meat of installing
> Gentoo is essentially just you executing a bunch of instructions inside of
> a chroot. You can start with any distro that currently provides
> accessibility for you, set aside some disk space, chroot into it and then
> do the Gentoo install work there. If the distro you start with can read
> what's going on in that terminal as well as the install instructions off
> the web pages for this task then I think you should be good to go.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Mark
>


-- 
kind regards,
Majid Hussain

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[Mark Knecht]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 7:16 AM Majid Hussain <mhussaincov93@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> hey there mark,
> you are ausom!
> it has cleared things up alot!
> on the chroot what doo I need?
> thanks,
> Majid Hussain
>
> On 22/04/2020, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:45 AM Majid Hussain <mhussaincov93@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> hi there,
> >> now er days, the mate desktop is considderd very accessible,
> >> compared to gnome,
> >> orca is the screen reader used when a gui is launched,
> >> espeakup is the screen reader that is used on the tty before xorg and
> >> friends are launched,
> >> it's what debian uses on the net install image,
> >> hence me asking if espeakup would be able to be added to an iso image?
> >> unless there's away of building your own iso image from a non  gentoo
> > system?
> >> Majid
> >>
> >
> > Hi Majid,
> >    I know nothing about accessibility systems but the meat of installing
> > Gentoo is essentially just you executing a bunch of instructions inside
of
> > a chroot. You can start with any distro that currently provides
> > accessibility for you, set aside some disk space, chroot into it and
then
> > do the Gentoo install work there. If the distro you start with can read
> > what's going on in that terminal as well as the install instructions off
> > the web pages for this task then I think you should be good to go.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> > Mark
> >
>
>
> --
> kind regards,
> Majid Hussain

Hi Majid,
   Again, I know nothing at all about how you deal with these tasks with
blindness. A few things:

1) This list tends to a a bottom posting list. I don't think anyone is
going to give you much grief about top posting. I certainly won't.

2) Fundamentally you just need to follow the isntall guide located here:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64

Under the section "Installing Gentoo" there are a bunch of links. The first
5 are basically about getting a new box with no OS booting, setting up a
network, basic stuff. You should have all of that from any OS you boot. TO
BE CLEAR: you can do this on your existing system if it's Linux based and
you have disk space available to play with. You can do this in a Virtualbox
VM. There is NO requirement to use a new empty system. Find some disk space
and follow the "Preparing the disks" and "Installing the Gentoo
installation files" sections to map out the design of your system. Once
that is done the section "Installing the Gentoo Base system" is where you
chroot into what will eventually become your machine. At that point you are
running Gentoo inside the chroot. You just build it p following the
instructions.

I hope this helps a little. Once you get started youo can ask questions
here and I am certain you'll get responses. This is, for the 25 years I've
been using Linux, the most helpful place on the web for both Gentoo and
general Linux admin sorts of topics.

   Warm welcomes and best of luck. I'm excited to see how you do.

Cheers,
Mark

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Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[John Covici]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:32:12 -0400,
Mark Knecht wrote:
> 
> [1  <text/plain; UTF-8 (7bit)>]
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 7:16 AM Majid Hussain <mhussaincov93@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > hey there mark,
> > you are ausom!
> > it has cleared things up alot!
> > on the chroot what doo I need?
> > thanks,
> > Majid Hussain
> >
> > On 22/04/2020, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:45 AM Majid Hussain <mhussaincov93@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> hi there,
> > >> now er days, the mate desktop is considderd very accessible,
> > >> compared to gnome,
> > >> orca is the screen reader used when a gui is launched,
> > >> espeakup is the screen reader that is used on the tty before xorg and
> > >> friends are launched,
> > >> it's what debian uses on the net install image,
> > >> hence me asking if espeakup would be able to be added to an iso image?
> > >> unless there's away of building your own iso image from a non  gentoo
> > > system?
> > >> Majid
> > >>
> > >
> > > Hi Majid,
> > >    I know nothing about accessibility systems but the meat of installing
> > > Gentoo is essentially just you executing a bunch of instructions inside
> of
> > > a chroot. You can start with any distro that currently provides
> > > accessibility for you, set aside some disk space, chroot into it and
> then
> > > do the Gentoo install work there. If the distro you start with can read
> > > what's going on in that terminal as well as the install instructions off
> > > the web pages for this task then I think you should be good to go.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps,
> > > Mark
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > kind regards,
> > Majid Hussain
> 
> Hi Majid,
>    Again, I know nothing at all about how you deal with these tasks with
> blindness. A few things:
> 
> 1) This list tends to a a bottom posting list. I don't think anyone is
> going to give you much grief about top posting. I certainly won't.
> 
> 2) Fundamentally you just need to follow the isntall guide located here:
> 
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64
> 
> Under the section "Installing Gentoo" there are a bunch of links. The first
> 5 are basically about getting a new box with no OS booting, setting up a
> network, basic stuff. You should have all of that from any OS you boot. TO
> BE CLEAR: you can do this on your existing system if it's Linux based and
> you have disk space available to play with. You can do this in a Virtualbox
> VM. There is NO requirement to use a new empty system. Find some disk space
> and follow the "Preparing the disks" and "Installing the Gentoo
> installation files" sections to map out the design of your system. Once
> that is done the section "Installing the Gentoo Base system" is where you
> chroot into what will eventually become your machine. At that point you are
> running Gentoo inside the chroot. You just build it p following the
> instructions.
> 
> I hope this helps a little. Once you get started youo can ask questions
> here and I am certain you'll get responses. This is, for the 25 years I've
> been using Linux, the most helpful place on the web for both Gentoo and
> general Linux admin sorts of topics.
> 
>    Warm welcomes and best of luck. I'm excited to see how you do.

I use gentoo with speakup (with a hardware synth) gnome and orca all
the time and it works well.  I compile my kernels and have speakup
built in so that I can get the earliest possible speech, but you may
not want to do this.  My system is more complicated since I use zfs,
but that is the great thing about gentoo, you get lots of choices.
So, if you like mate,  you can use that, if you like gnome you can use
that, etc.  Gnome requires you to use systemd, so be warned.

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

         John Covici wb2una
         covici@ccs.covici.com

Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[Ashley Dixon]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:30:01AM -0400, John Covici wrote:
> Gnome requires you to use systemd, so be warned.

Small addendum: GNOME, from version  3.3,  can,  technically,  be  used  without
systemd. See [1] and [2].

[1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/GNOME_Without_systemd/Gentoo
[2] https://github.com/dantrell/gentoo-project-gnome-without-systemd

-- 

Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk

2A9A 4117
DA96 D18A
8A7B B0D2
A30E BF25
F290 A8AA


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[gentoo-user] Re: gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2020-04-22 13:28, Ashley Dixon wrote:

> This is the ONE situation under which I would recommend GNOME, as it
> is generally the best with built-in accessibility features [3].

I don't know about that.  Mouse Keys was broken for at least 2 Fedora
releases (it would do the moves but not the clicks) and my bug about
that was handled in the typical GNOME/Fedora fashion, ie. ignored until
they could close it with reference to the next version.

> lot of the more niche W.M.s (such as i3) require an incredible amount
> of tinkering (and often changes to the code-base) to introduce any
> sort of considering for accessibility.

Maybe wrt visual handicaps you are right, but wrt keyboard access to
everything that "normal" users do with the mouse, I violently disagree.
I use bspwm now and it is the _very best_ interface I ever had, freeing
me from the authoritarian rodent for hours at a time.

-- 
Ian

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[Ashley Dixon]

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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 10:15:31AM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> Maybe wrt visual handicaps you are right, but wrt keyboard access to
> everything that "normal" users do with the mouse, I violently disagree.

Ian,

I'm sorry I have invoked feelings of such  violence.   I  did  mean  for  visual
handicaps.  Even for able users, such as myself, we often make a choice  not  to
use the mouse as it is often less  efficient  than  using  the  keyboard,  so  I
wouldn't   really   classify   the   latter   as   an   accessibility   feature.

-- 

Ashley Dixon
suugaku.co.uk

2A9A 4117
DA96 D18A
8A7B B0D2
A30E BF25
F290 A8AA


[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo accessibility re i'm blind,

[William Hubbs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 983 bytes --]

Hi Majid,


On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 01:04:48PM +0100, Majid Hussain wrote:
> hi there,
> i'm blind and wanted to get started with gentoo.
> what's accessibility like?
> is there speech via orca the screen reader or sound on the minimal iso
> via espeakup provided?
> I red this document,
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Accessibility
> which seembs to be up-to-date, is there a update on this?
> not sure if this was the correct place to post my question?
> i'm a complete newb with gentoo I would be greatfull for your assistence,
> i'm looking for an adventure.

Yes, speakup and espeakup are available on the iso, and orca is
available in gnome. I haven't used gnome myself (I mostly use the
commandline via ssh) so I can't comment a whole lot about orca.

We also have brltty and emacspeak available in the repository. I don't
really use them personally so I haven't looked at them in some time.

Please feel free to ask any questions and welcome to Gentoo. :-)

William


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