[gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

Hello list,

[Far off topic]

I've been seeing some confusion recently about the abbreviations e.g. and 
i.e. Their meanings are:

E.g.		Exempli gratia	- Latin for "for the sake of example";
I.e.		Id est			- Latin for "that is".

HTH. I'll ge back to sleep now.

[/Far off topic]

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I've been seeing some confusion recently about the abbreviations e.g. and
> i.e. Their meanings are:
>
> E.g.            Exempli gratia  - Latin for "for the sake of example";
> I.e.            Id est                  - Latin for "that is".
>

Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
these wrong.

e.g is used when giving one example when many could have used.  An
example:  "Some people in life suffer misfortunes, e.g. having a
meteor land on their house."  This is just one example of a misfortune
somebody could suffer, and there are many other unstated misfortunes.
Indeed, instead of saying "An example" in the previous sentence I
could have actually started it with, "e.g." I figured that would make
the example more confusion which would defeat the purpose.

i.e. is used when restating something in different words.  An example:
"Gentoo is a Linux distribution, i.e. a collection of software based
on the Linux kernel that is published as a single maintained work."
The second part of the sentence is a definition of "Linux
distribution" - the definition isn't just one of many examples - it is
a description of all Linux distributions.

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Grant Edwards]

On 2018-02-01, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
> more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
> these wrong.
>
> e.g is used when giving one example when many could have used.

You also use e.g. when giving multiple examples.  To quote Grammar Girl.

  "I like card games, e.g. bridge and crazy eights.

> An example: "Some people in life suffer misfortunes, e.g. having a
> meteor land on their house."  This is just one example of a
> misfortune somebody could suffer, and there are many other unstated
> misfortunes.

  "Some people in life suffer misfortunes, e.g. fire, flood,
   earthquake or a meteor strike."

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm young ... I'm
                                  at               HEALTHY ... I can HIKE
                              gmail.com            THRU CAPT GROGAN'S LUMBAR
                                                   REGIONS!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Philip Webb]

180201 Grant Edwards wrote:
> You also use e.g. when giving multiple examples.  To quote Grammar Girl.
>   "I like card games, e.g. bridge and crazy eights.
>   "Some people in life suffer misfortunes, e.g. fire, flood,
>    earthquake or a meteor strike."

And while we're at it (grin), 'e.g.' has the same force as 'etc',
so it's duplicating effort to write 'e.g. fire, flood etc'.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 357 bytes --]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:47:57 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:

> And while we're at it (grin), 'e.g.' has the same force as 'etc',
> so it's duplicating effort to write 'e.g. fire, flood etc'.

etc is from the Latin et cetera, meaning "I couldn't be bothered thinking
of any more".


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Justify my text? I'm sorry but it has no excuse.

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 727 bytes --]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:12:07 -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:

> Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
> more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
> these wrong.
[snip]
> I figured that would make
> the example more confusion which would defeat the purpose.
                   ~~~~~~~~~
  
MUPHRY'S LAW: The principle that any criticism of the writing of others
will itself contain at least one grammatical error.

And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be using
"that".

(In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding comma).


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Some cause happiness wherever they go. Others whenever they go.

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Grant Taylor]

On 02/01/2018 11:50 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> etc is from the Latin et cetera, meaning "I couldn't be bothered thinking 
> of any more".

~chuckle~

IMHO that makes the name of the "/etc" directory all that much more 
entertaining.  As in Dennis R. and Ken T. couldn't be bothered to come 
up with more directory names than they had, e.g. /bin /lib /boot /var … 
(I can't be bothered to think of or look for more.)

Yes, the puns are intended.  }:-)

P.S.  I find this thread interesting and timely as I had been thinking 
about researching the etymology and use of "i.e.".



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:09 PM, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>
> IMHO that makes the name of the "/etc" directory all that much more
> entertaining.  As in Dennis R. and Ken T. couldn't be bothered to come up
> with more directory names than they had, e.g. /bin /lib /boot /var … (I
> can't be bothered to think of or look for more.)
>

Along those lines the original reason for the / vs /usr split was that
the original developers were accommodating a machine that had two hard
drives and needed to split things up.

There may very well be good reasons to preserve the distinction today,
but those aren't actually historical.  And of course there are two
modern approaches:

1.  The more traditional FHS approach of / for boot-essential and /usr
mounted later during bootstrapping.

2.  The Fedora /usr merge approach of sticking all read-only
distro-supplied files in /usr with the goal that they be contained and
read-only (think squashfs/signatures/etc), with bootstrapping covered
by the initramfs.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Philip Webb]

180201 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:47:57 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:
>> And while we're at it (grin), 'e.g.' has the same force as 'etc',
>> so it's duplicating effort to write 'e.g. fire, flood etc'.
> 'etc' is from the Latin 'et cetera',
> meaning "I couldn't be bothered thinking of any more".

Roughly (smile) : as a Classicist by training,
I would translate 'and all the rest (of them)'.

The Romans were very practical people who didn't waste time or effort,
but got on with the job & built an empire which lasted  500 years .

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 312 bytes --]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 16:17:10 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:

> The Romans were very practical people who didn't waste time or effort,
> but got on with the job & built an empire which lasted  500 years .

built an empire THAT lasted  500 years


-- 
Neil Bothwick

This virus requires Microsoft Windows XP

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[gentoo-user] Re: A little help for non-native English speakers

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2018-02-01 18:55, Neil Bothwick wrote:

> > I figured that would make the example more confusion which would
> > defeat the purpose.

> And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be using
> "that".
> 
> (In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding comma).

One could also use "that" with a preceding semicolon.

-- 
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
To reply privately _only_ on Usenet, fetch the TXT record for the domain.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Frank Steinmetzger]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1294 bytes --]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 06:55:30PM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:12:07 -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
> 
> > Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
> > more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
> > these wrong.
> [snip]
> > I figured that would make
> > the example more confusion which would defeat the purpose.
>                    ~~~~~~~~~
>   
> MUPHRY'S LAW: The principle that any criticism of the writing of others
> will itself contain at least one grammatical error.
> 
> And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be using
> "that".
> 
> (In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding comma).


When your reading this sentance, you fill find their are definately some
errors in it’s spelling. That is a art less and less people can make proper
use of.

*SCNR*


PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes "eg",
which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".

-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

The higher the qualification, the higher-grade the mistakes.

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 601 bytes --]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 14:45:15 -0800, Ian Zimmerman wrote:

> > > I figured that would make the example more confusion which would
> > > defeat the purpose.  
> 
> > And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be
> > using "that".
> > 
> > (In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding
> > comma).  
> 
> One could also use "that" with a preceding semicolon.

One could, although it would subtly change the message, adding more
emphasis to the second clause.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

In a classified ad: "Tired of cleaning yourself? Let me do it."

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Jack]

On 2018.02.01 17:52, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
[snip...]
> PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart  
> because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes  
> "eg", which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".

A non-native speaker of English, or a non-native speaker of Latin?

[gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Grant Edwards]

On 2018-02-01, Jack <ostroffjh@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> On 2018.02.01 17:52, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> [snip...]
>> PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart  
>> because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes  
>> "eg", which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".
>
> A non-native speaker of English, or a non-native speaker of Latin?

Are there any native speakers of Latin?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Is it 1974?  What's
                                  at               for SUPPER?  Can I spend
                              gmail.com            my COLLEGE FUND in one
                                                   wild afternoon??

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday, 1 February 2018 18:47:57 GMT Philip Webb wrote:
> 180201 Grant Edwards wrote:
> > You also use e.g. when giving multiple examples.  To quote Grammar Girl.
> > 
> >   "I like card games, e.g. bridge and crazy eights.
> >   "Some people in life suffer misfortunes, e.g. fire, flood,
> >   
> >    earthquake or a meteor strike."
> 
> And while we're at it (grin), 'e.g.' has the same force as 'etc',
> so it's duplicating effort to write 'e.g. fire, flood etc'.

No, it doesn't. I think what you mean is that it doesn't make sense to say 
"for example, ... , all the rest." In other words, you can't sensibly say 
all the rest are an example. I agree with that.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday, 1 February 2018 22:24:11 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 16:17:10 -0500, Philip Webb wrote:
> > The Romans were very practical people who didn't waste time or effort,
> > but got on with the job & built an empire which lasted  500 years .
> 
> built an empire THAT lasted  500 years

Nope. Philip was right the first time. They built an empire, and it lasted 
500 years. Your version implies that they built an empire that lasted 500 
years, as distinct from one that didn't.

Consult Fowler on "that and which". Preferably not the most recent version.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Frank Steinmetzger]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 625 bytes --]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 06:05:35PM -0500, Jack wrote:
> On 2018.02.01 17:52, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> [snip...]
> > PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
> > because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes
> > "eg", which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".
>
> A non-native speaker of English, or a non-native speaker of Latin?

The only Latin I know properly is «Romani ite domum».

-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

Finally!  No more financial worries! Broke.

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday, 1 February 2018 22:52:14 GMT Frank Steinmetzger wrote:

> PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
> because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes "eg",
> which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".


Aargh! No, no, no. There are no gs in an x. Say after me: "ecs-ample".

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday, 1 February 2018 18:12:07 GMT Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> 
wrote:
> > I've been seeing some confusion recently about the abbreviations e.g.
> > and
> > i.e. Their meanings are:
> > 
> > E.g.            Exempli gratia  - Latin for "for the sake of example";
> > I.e.            Id est                  - Latin for "that is".
> 
> Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
> more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
> these wrong.
> 
> e.g is used when giving one example when many could have used.

Could have used ... what?

You're just repeating the definition of "example".

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1055 bytes --]

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 23:39:13 +0000, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> > > The Romans were very practical people who didn't waste time or
> > > effort, but got on with the job & built an empire which lasted  500
> > > years .  
> > 
> > built an empire THAT lasted  500 years  
> 
> Nope. Philip was right the first time. They built an empire, and it
> lasted 500 years. Your version implies that they built an empire that
> lasted 500 years, as distinct from one that didn't.

In that case the which should be preceded by a comma, as that part of the
sentence is optional, only adding extra detail. However, here the fact
that the empire lasted 500 years is the point and should be included in
the main statement with that.

The rule of thumb I was taught is that if you can dispense with the
second part without significantly changing the meaning, use which,
otherwise use that. Since the 500 years is crucial, the latter applies.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to
skydive twice.

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 384 bytes --]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 23:34:11 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> > A non-native speaker of English, or a non-native speaker of Latin?  

The two are not mutually exclusive.
 
> Are there any native speakers of Latin?

There appear to be plenty in Oxford, and the UK government.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 003: Dynamic linking error - Your mistake is now in every file

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Jack]

On 2018.02.01 18:34, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2018-02-01, Jack <ostroffjh@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> > On 2018.02.01 17:52, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> > [snip...]
> >> PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep  
> apart
> >> because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes
> >> "eg", which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".
> >
> > A non-native speaker of English, or a non-native speaker of Latin?
> 
> Are there any native speakers of Latin?

Not any more, that I know of, but I believe it some residents of  
Vatican City might come close, or at least be extremely fluent.

Jack

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[R0b0t1]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> [Far off topic]

Allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive
purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a
diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put
our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but
you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I
ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a
doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you
are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In
your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and
even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you
back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of
things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to
these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it
comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness.
You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when
supply and command fails you will be the first to go.

Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take
rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who
makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to
swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to
this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's
mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass
with flying carpets like it’s a peach of cake.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday, 2 February 2018 00:04:07 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 23:39:13 +0000, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > > The Romans were very practical people who didn't waste time or
> > > > effort, but got on with the job & built an empire which lasted  500
> > > > years .
> > > 
> > > built an empire THAT lasted  500 years
> > 
> > Nope. Philip was right the first time. They built an empire, and it
> > lasted 500 years. Your version implies that they built an empire that
> > lasted 500 years, as distinct from one that didn't.
> 
> In that case the which should be preceded by a comma,

The comma has become optional with developing usage. Otherwise, we agree.

> ... as that part of the sentence is optional, only adding extra detail.
> However, here the fact that the empire lasted 500 years is the point and
> should be included in the main statement with that.

That's a matter of opinion. If true, it should be handled by recasting the 
sentence so as not to rely on such a fine distinction, which would most 
likely be missed.

> The rule of thumb I was taught is that if you can dispense with the
> second part without significantly changing the meaning, use which,
> otherwise use that.

I agree. You haven't consulted Fowler though, I see. (Drat! Where's my copy 
when I need it?) He says the difference is whether we have a defining 
clause. If what follows actually defines the subject of the sentence, use 
"that". Otherwise it's "which".

I spent many hours editing programmers' documents in the '80s and '90s (in 
my spare time between assembler and Fortran programs), and this was a major 
sticking point. As I said to one of those young men, "which" in this context 
could often be understood as "and it". I stand by that still.

> Since the 500 years is crucial, the latter applies.

As I said, the construction is poor.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday, 2 February 2018 00:25:43 GMT R0b0t1 wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> 
wrote:
> > [Far off topic]
> 
> Allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive
> purposes

Very funny, but I'm sorry to say I stopped reading at this point.  :)

> I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a
> diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put
> our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but
> you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I
> ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a
> doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you
> are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In
> your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and
> even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you
> back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of
> things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to
> these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it
> comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness.
> You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when
> supply and command fails you will be the first to go.
> 
> Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take
> rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who
> makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to
> swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to
> this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's
> mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass
> with flying carpets like it’s a peach of cake.

9/10 for effort, though, as my Dad might have said.  :)

(He was a teacher, and he never gave 10/10 for anything because, he said, 
surely there must always be some room for improvement. You see what we 
children had to cope with...)

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 649 bytes --]

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 00:36:00 +0000, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> > The rule of thumb I was taught is that if you can dispense with the
> > second part without significantly changing the meaning, use which,
> > otherwise use that.  
> 
> I agree. You haven't consulted Fowler though, I see. (Drat! Where's my
> copy when I need it?) He says the difference is whether we have a
> defining clause. If what follows actually defines the subject of the
> sentence, use "that". Otherwise it's "which".

That's the definition I learned, thank for reminding me of it's name.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I used to have a handle on life, then it broke.

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 00:41:29 +0000, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> 9/10 for effort, though, as my Dad might have said.  :)
> 
> (He was a teacher, and he never gave 10/10 for anything because, he
> said, surely there must always be some room for improvement. You see
> what we children had to cope with...)

Good for him. 10/10 means "well done, but you're never going to get any
better". A depressing concept :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Shotgun wedding: A case of wife or death.

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 00:41:29 +0000, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>
> Good for him. 10/10 means "well done, but you're never going to get any
> better". A depressing concept :(
>

More like, "well done, and you will get better, but 99% of the people
you meet and 85% of the managers you work for won't be able to tell
the difference."

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Grant Taylor]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 468 bytes --]

On 02/01/2018 11:55 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> MUPHRY'S LAW: The principle that any criticism of the writing of others 
> will itself contain at least one grammatical error.
> 
> And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be using 
> "that".
> 
> (In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding comma).

Please defend / expound upon your statement.  -  Because I'd like to learn.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


[-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --]
[-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 3982 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[allan gottlieb]

On Fri, Feb 02 2018, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> I agree. You haven't consulted Fowler though, I see. (Drat! Where's my copy 
> when I need it?) He says the difference is whether we have a defining 
> clause. If what follows actually defines the subject of the sentence, use 
> "that". Otherwise it's "which".

The terminology I was taught is that

  "which" introduces a nonrestrictive clause set off in commas

  "that" introduces a restrictive clause.

"The ice cream that is in the fridge is cold"
restricts the assertion of coldness to the ice cream in the fridge as
opposed to some other ice cream.

"The ice cream, which is in the fridge, is cold"
asserts two points.
  The ice cream is cold.
  The ice cream is in the fridge.

allan

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Floyd Anderson]

On Thu, 01 Feb 2018 23:48:19 -0500
allan gottlieb <gottlieb@nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>"The ice cream that is in the fridge is cold"
>restricts the assertion of coldness to the ice cream in the fridge as
>opposed to some other ice cream.

…and that completes the circle ;-)

"The ice cream id est in the fridge is cold"
"The ice cream i.e. in the fridge is cold"


-- 
Regards,
floyd

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Alan McKinnon]

On 02/02/2018 00:52, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 06:55:30PM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:12:07 -0500, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> Well, as long as we're explaining grammar, I'll elaborate a tiny bit
>>> more since a lot of people (including native English speakers) get
>>> these wrong.
>> [snip]
>>> I figured that would make
>>> the example more confusion which would defeat the purpose.
>>                     ~~~~~~~~~
>>    
>> MUPHRY'S LAW: The principle that any criticism of the writing of others
>> will itself contain at least one grammatical error.
>>
>> And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be using
>> "that".
>>
>> (In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding comma).
> 
> 
> When your reading this sentance, you fill find their are definately some
> errors in it’s spelling. That is a art less and less people can make proper
> use of.
> 
> *SCNR*
> 
> 
> PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
> because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes "eg",
> which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".
> 

As a native English speaker I can never remember the precedence rules 
about its and it's...

I vote we dump English in it's entirety and all switch to Python



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Alan McKinnon]

On 02/02/2018 09:47, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 09:34:06AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
>>> PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
>>> because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes "eg",
>>> which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".
>>>
>>
>> As a native English speaker I can never remember the precedence rules
>> about its and it's...
> 
> That is quite easy: the ’ *always* means something has been left out. "It’s"
> it its unrolled form means It is. Once you start reading it aloud as such,
> you will quickly get the hang of it. Try it, it is such fun.

I did say I can't remember the rules, not that I don't understand them :-)

I do remember there, their and they're though, that one gives many folks 
trouble. Of late I've decided that human languages are fuzzy, redundant 
and meaning can usually be determined from context. Not 100%, but 
usually close.

And now I don't care any more. Except "revert". That one still grates 
me; it is not "reply"

> 
>> I vote we dump English in it's entirety and all switch to Python
> 
> How do you pronounce indentation?

Like so: "tab tab space"



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Frank Steinmetzger]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 855 bytes --]

On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 09:34:06AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > PS.: As a non-native, I always found e.g. and i.e. easy to keep apart
> > because when you say "e.g." as a word without the dots, it becomes "eg",
> > which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".
> > 
> 
> As a native English speaker I can never remember the precedence rules 
> about its and it's...

That is quite easy: the ’ *always* means something has been left out. "It’s"
it its unrolled form means It is. Once you start reading it aloud as such,
you will quickly get the hang of it. Try it, it is such fun.

> I vote we dump English in it's entirety and all switch to Python

How do you pronounce indentation?

-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

LOL, you said ROFL.

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 840 bytes --]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:06:15 -0700, Grant Taylor wrote:

> > And don't get me started on people using "which" when they should be
> > using "that".
> > 
> > (In this case, which is correct but it should have a preceding
> > comma).  
> 
> Please defend / expound upon your statement.  -  Because I'd like to
> learn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_relative_clauses#That_or_which_for_non-human_antecedents

This mentions Fowlers, the reference that Peter said to read.

Unfortunately, the distinction, and so the subtleties of meaning, is
falling into disuse, even in professionally written copy.

But its a bad habit which I will never get into!


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The word 'Windows' is a word out of an old dialect of the Apaches.
It means: 'White man staring through glass-screen onto an hourglass...')

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 509 bytes --]

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:34:06 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> As a native English speaker I can never remember the precedence rules 
> about its and it's...

Its easy ;-)

> I vote we dump English in it's entirety and all switch to Python

Come one! Most people can't handle basic spelling and grammar, how are
they going to deal with indentation. We could use Perl. That would be
equally incomprehensible whether right or wrong.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

It's not who you know; it's whom you know.

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Alan McKinnon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 764 bytes --]

hehehehe :-)

Old joke but a good one:

Q: Why don't we obfuscate perl?
A; Because that makes it more readable

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 10:10 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:34:06 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
> > As a native English speaker I can never remember the precedence rules
> > about its and it's...
>
> Its easy ;-)
>
> > I vote we dump English in it's entirety and all switch to Python
>
> Come one! Most people can't handle basic spelling and grammar, how are
> they going to deal with indentation. We could use Perl. That would be
> equally incomprehensible whether right or wrong.
>
>
> --
> Neil Bothwick
>
> It's not who you know; it's whom you know.
>



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1394 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Grant Taylor]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 147 bytes --]

On 02/02/2018 01:10 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> We could use Perl.

I see your Perl and raise you Lisp.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


[-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --]
[-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 3982 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Grant Taylor]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 773 bytes --]

On 02/02/2018 01:03 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_relative_clauses#That_or_which_for_non-human_antecedents
> 
> This mentions Fowlers, the reference that Peter said to read.

Thank you.

> Unfortunately, the distinction, and so the subtleties of meaning, is 
> falling into disuse, even in professionally written copy.

Oh my.  I don't think I've ever run into this before.  But, it's only 
been the last decade or so that I cared enough to pay attention.

> But its a bad habit which I will never get into!

Couldn't you have said "…habit that I…" in the fact that you were 
referencing a specific habit, not just a generic place holder?

If I'm understanding things correctly.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


[-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --]
[-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 3982 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday, 2 February 2018 20:05:21 GMT Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 02/02/2018 01:03 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > But its a bad habit which I will never get into!
> 
> Couldn't you have said "…habit that I…" in the fact that you were
> referencing a specific habit, not just a generic place holder?

Nope. He said it's a bad habit. Then he said he'll never get into it. So 
'which' was right; he was merely adding another thought, not limiting what 
he'd said before.

It has nothing to do with place holders; it's about defining or not 
defining. As Fowler made clear, though his later revisionists have watered 
him down.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[allan gottlieb]

On Fri, Feb 02 2018, Grant Taylor wrote:

> On 02/02/2018 01:03 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>
>> But its a bad habit which I will never get into!
>
> Couldn't you have said "…habit that I…" in the fact that you were
> referencing a specific habit, not just a generic place holder?
>
> If I'm understanding things correctly.

I would think "... habit, which"

"I will never get into" is a non-restrictive clause giving extra
information about the habit.

allan

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 692 bytes --]

On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 20:34:04 +0000, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> > > But its a bad habit which I will never get into!  
> > 
> > Couldn't you have said "…habit that I…" in the fact that you were
> > referencing a specific habit, not just a generic place holder?  
> 
> Nope. He said it's a bad habit. Then he said he'll never get into it.
> So 'which' was right; he was merely adding another thought, not
> limiting what he'd said before.

Actually, it was a deliberately poor sentence, in several ways -
channelling my inner Ernie Wise ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Everything takes longer than expected, even when you take
  into account Hoffstead's Law." - Hoffstead's Law

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Wol's lists]

On 02/02/18 00:08, Jack wrote:
> 
>  >> "eg", which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".
>  >
>  > A non-native speaker of English, or a non-native speaker of Latin?

And Latin's descendants (which are mutually comprehensible) are actually 
the most widely spoken first language in Europe. I always thought Europe 
should adopt Modern Latin (however you care to define it) as its main 
official language.

(Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian put together are very similar and are 
larger than any other grouping of similar European language, excluding 
perhaps Russian which is spoken mostly by non-EU nationals.)

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Wol's lists]

On 02/02/18 17:28, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 02/02/2018 01:10 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> We could use Perl.
> 
> I see your Perl and raise you Lisp.
> 
Or the "language to replace all languages", PL/1

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Saturday, 3 February 2018 00:19:08 GMT Wol's lists wrote:
> On 02/02/18 00:08, Jack wrote:
> >  >> "eg", which, phonetically, is the start of the word "example".
> >  > 
> >  > A non-native speaker of English, or a non-native speaker of Latin?
> 
> And Latin's descendants (which are mutually comprehensible) are actually
> the most widely spoken first language in Europe. I always thought Europe
> should adopt Modern Latin (however you care to define it) as its main
> official language.
> 
> (Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian put together are very similar and are
> larger than any other grouping of similar European language, excluding
> perhaps Russian which is spoken mostly by non-EU nationals.)

I believe those languages, the ones descended from Latin, are called romance 
languages, and yes, they do have common features such as pronunciation of 
vowels.

Having so many words derived via French from Latin, English is also a 
romance language to some extent. I know it's officially classed as a 
Germanic language, but I can't see why. There seems to be no Teutonic 
influence to speak of. Few words in common, very different sentence 
structure, ...

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday, 2 February 2018 23:44:16 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2018 20:34:04 +0000, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > > But its a bad habit which I will never get into!
> > > 
> > > Couldn't you have said "…habit that I…" in the fact that you were
> > > referencing a specific habit, not just a generic place holder?
> > 
> > Nope. He said it's a bad habit. Then he said he'll never get into it.
> > So 'which' was right; he was merely adding another thought, not
> > limiting what he'd said before.
> 
> Actually, it was a deliberately poor sentence, in several ways -
> channelling my inner Ernie Wise ;-)

I be he would have joined sentences with commas too, though I never saw 
anything of his written.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Frank Steinmetzger]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 691 bytes --]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 06:25:43PM -0600, R0b0t1 wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> > [Far off topic]
> 
> Allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment.

Thanks for the hearty laughs. It reminded me of a joke in which a priest’s
son and his friends find a dead bird. Now the kid often observed his daddy
at work, and so felt the obligation to give the bird a proper burial. He
ended with:
“… in the name of the father, the son, and into the hole he goes.”

-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

Even baldies do have streaks of luck.

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Wols Lists]

On 03/02/18 08:43, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> Having so many words derived via French from Latin, English is also a 
> romance language to some extent. I know it's officially classed as a 
> Germanic language, but I can't see why. There seems to be no Teutonic 
> influence to speak of. Few words in common, very different sentence 
> structure, ...

Cow, Sheep, ... I think there are a lot of words in common.

Not that I have any personal experience, but I've come across several
reports that British soldiers stationed in West Germany after the war
had no difficulty talking with Germans who spoke Platt-Deutsch (or
however that is spelt).

Modern English is an evolved mess of Norman French and Anglo-Saxon, and
seeing as the Normans (Norse-Men) were really Vikings not Franks ...

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] A little help for non-native English speakers

[Philip Webb]

180203 Wols Lists wrote:
> On 03/02/18 08:43, Peter Humphrey wrote:
>> Having so many words derived via French from Latin, English is also a 
>> romance language to some extent. I know it's officially classed as a 
>> Germanic language, but I can't see why. There seems to be no Teutonic 
>> influence to speak of. Few words in common, very different sentence 
>> structure, ...
> Modern English is an evolved mess of Norman French and Anglo-Saxon, and
> seeing as the Normans (Norse-Men) were really Vikings not Franks ...

For the history of English, I recommend Otto Jespersen
'Growth & Structure of the English Language' ;
the 1st edition was 1905 & I believe it's still in print
(I have the 9th edition from 1938, printed in Germany by Teubner).
Among many other matters, he mentions that 'that' was
the original relative pronoun, while 'which' came only later.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca