[gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Mick]

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Hi All,

I've been using the net-misc/knutclient GUI application to provide information 
to desktop users of the state of the UPS.  Portage is telling me this package 
depends on Qt4, it has received no development upstream and is due to be 
ditched:

!!! The following installed packages are masked:
- net-misc/knutclient-1.0.5::gentoo (masked by: package.mask)
/usr/portage/profiles/package.mask:
# Andreas Sturmlechner <asturm@gentoo.org> (21 Oct 2017)
# Dead upstream, depends on dead kdelibs4/Qt4.
# Masked for removal in 30 days. Bug #629018

Is there some other GUI front end for nut in portage I could use in its place?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Daniel Frey]

On 10/28/2017 01:58 AM, Mick wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I've been using the net-misc/knutclient GUI application to provide information
> to desktop users of the state of the UPS.  Portage is telling me this package
> depends on Qt4, it has received no development upstream and is due to be
> ditched:
> 
> !!! The following installed packages are masked:
> - net-misc/knutclient-1.0.5::gentoo (masked by: package.mask)
> /usr/portage/profiles/package.mask:
> # Andreas Sturmlechner <asturm@gentoo.org> (21 Oct 2017)
> # Dead upstream, depends on dead kdelibs4/Qt4.
> # Masked for removal in 30 days. Bug #629018
> 
> Is there some other GUI front end for nut in portage I could use in its place?
> 

Have you tried the one that comes with the nut package? There should be 
one installed with it. Although, I can't remember if it docks in the tray.

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Mick]

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On Saturday, 28 October 2017 15:18:26 BST Daniel Frey wrote:
> On 10/28/2017 01:58 AM, Mick wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > I've been using the net-misc/knutclient GUI application to provide
> > information to desktop users of the state of the UPS.  Portage is telling
> > me this package depends on Qt4, it has received no development upstream
> > and is due to be ditched:
> > 
> > !!! The following installed packages are masked:
> > - net-misc/knutclient-1.0.5::gentoo (masked by: package.mask)
> > /usr/portage/profiles/package.mask:
> > # Andreas Sturmlechner <asturm@gentoo.org> (21 Oct 2017)
> > # Dead upstream, depends on dead kdelibs4/Qt4.
> > # Masked for removal in 30 days. Bug #629018
> > 
> > Is there some other GUI front end for nut in portage I could use in its
> > place?
> Have you tried the one that comes with the nut package? There should be
> one installed with it. Although, I can't remember if it docks in the tray.
> 
> Dan

Thanks Dan,

From what I see here there are number of GUI interfaces and NUT-Monitor
seems to be the application built in nut:

http://networkupstools.org/projects.html#_graphical_desktop_clients

However, I'm not sure it was built in my case:

$ find /usr/bin -iname *nut*
/usr/bin/binutils-config
/usr/bin/nut-scanner
/usr/bin/knutclient

This is how I built nut:

     Installed versions:  2.7.3(12:42:59 18/04/17)(ssl tcpd ups_drivers_al175 
ups_drivers_apcsmart ups_drivers_apcsmart-old ups_drivers_apcupsd-ups 
ups_drivers_bcmxcp ups_drivers_bcmxcp_usb ups_drivers_belkin 
ups_drivers_belkinunv ups_drivers_bestfcom ups_drivers_bestfortress 
ups_drivers_bestuferrups ups_drivers_bestups ups_drivers_blazer_ser 
ups_drivers_blazer_usb ups_drivers_clone ups_drivers_clone-outlet 
ups_drivers_dummy-ups ups_drivers_etapro ups_drivers_everups 
ups_drivers_gamatronic ups_drivers_genericups ups_drivers_isbmex 
ups_drivers_ivtscd ups_drivers_liebert ups_drivers_liebert-esp2 
ups_drivers_masterguard ups_drivers_metasys ups_drivers_mge-shut 
ups_drivers_mge-utalk ups_drivers_microdowell ups_drivers_nutdrv_qx 
ups_drivers_oldmge-shut ups_drivers_oneac ups_drivers_optiups 
ups_drivers_powercom ups_drivers_powerpanel ups_drivers_rhino 
ups_drivers_richcomm_usb ups_drivers_riello_ser ups_drivers_riello_usb 
ups_drivers_safenet ups_drivers_solis ups_drivers_tripplite 
ups_drivers_tripplite_usb ups_drivers_tripplitesu ups_drivers_upscode2 
ups_drivers_usbhid-ups ups_drivers_victronups usb xml -cgi -ipmi -selinux -
snmp -ups_drivers_netxml-ups -ups_drivers_nut-ipmipsu -ups_drivers_snmp-ups -
zeroconf)

What am I missing?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Daniel Frey]

On 10/28/2017 09:48 AM, Mick wrote:
> On Saturday, 28 October 2017 15:18:26 BST Daniel Frey wrote:
>> On 10/28/2017 01:58 AM, Mick wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I've been using the net-misc/knutclient GUI application to provide
>>> information to desktop users of the state of the UPS.  Portage is telling
>>> me this package depends on Qt4, it has received no development upstream
>>> and is due to be ditched:
>>>
>>> !!! The following installed packages are masked:
>>> - net-misc/knutclient-1.0.5::gentoo (masked by: package.mask)
>>> /usr/portage/profiles/package.mask:
>>> # Andreas Sturmlechner <asturm@gentoo.org> (21 Oct 2017)
>>> # Dead upstream, depends on dead kdelibs4/Qt4.
>>> # Masked for removal in 30 days. Bug #629018
>>>
>>> Is there some other GUI front end for nut in portage I could use in its
>>> place?
>> Have you tried the one that comes with the nut package? There should be
>> one installed with it. Although, I can't remember if it docks in the tray.
>>
>> Dan
> 
> Thanks Dan,
> 
>  From what I see here there are number of GUI interfaces and NUT-Monitor
> seems to be the application built in nut:
> 
> http://networkupstools.org/projects.html#_graphical_desktop_clients
> 
> However, I'm not sure it was built in my case:
> 
> $ find /usr/bin -iname *nut*
> /usr/bin/binutils-config
> /usr/bin/nut-scanner
> /usr/bin/knutclient
> 
> This is how I built nut:
> 
>       Installed versions:  2.7.3(12:42:59 18/04/17)(ssl tcpd ups_drivers_al175
> ups_drivers_apcsmart ups_drivers_apcsmart-old ups_drivers_apcupsd-ups
> ups_drivers_bcmxcp ups_drivers_bcmxcp_usb ups_drivers_belkin
> ups_drivers_belkinunv ups_drivers_bestfcom ups_drivers_bestfortress
> ups_drivers_bestuferrups ups_drivers_bestups ups_drivers_blazer_ser
> ups_drivers_blazer_usb ups_drivers_clone ups_drivers_clone-outlet
> ups_drivers_dummy-ups ups_drivers_etapro ups_drivers_everups
> ups_drivers_gamatronic ups_drivers_genericups ups_drivers_isbmex
> ups_drivers_ivtscd ups_drivers_liebert ups_drivers_liebert-esp2
> ups_drivers_masterguard ups_drivers_metasys ups_drivers_mge-shut
> ups_drivers_mge-utalk ups_drivers_microdowell ups_drivers_nutdrv_qx
> ups_drivers_oldmge-shut ups_drivers_oneac ups_drivers_optiups
> ups_drivers_powercom ups_drivers_powerpanel ups_drivers_rhino
> ups_drivers_richcomm_usb ups_drivers_riello_ser ups_drivers_riello_usb
> ups_drivers_safenet ups_drivers_solis ups_drivers_tripplite
> ups_drivers_tripplite_usb ups_drivers_tripplitesu ups_drivers_upscode2
> ups_drivers_usbhid-ups ups_drivers_victronups usb xml -cgi -ipmi -selinux -
> snmp -ups_drivers_netxml-ups -ups_drivers_nut-ipmipsu -ups_drivers_snmp-ups -
> zeroconf)
> 
> What am I missing?
> 

Well, that's odd. I just built it and see nothing of the sort. I built 
it with all USE flags.

I am not using nut now, but I was trying it about a year ago. I did have 
a client (it wasn't knutclient), maybe it was removed from the tree. 
That's disappointing.

How much information do your users need? I'm running KDE5 with apcupsd 
and an APC UPS, and the battery monitor built in to KDE shows me that 
the battery is at 100% (it doesn't really say much else, though.)

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Dale]

Daniel Frey wrote:
>
> Well, that's odd. I just built it and see nothing of the sort. I built
> it with all USE flags.
>
> I am not using nut now, but I was trying it about a year ago. I did
> have a client (it wasn't knutclient), maybe it was removed from the
> tree. That's disappointing.
>
> How much information do your users need? I'm running KDE5 with apcupsd
> and an APC UPS, and the battery monitor built in to KDE shows me that
> the battery is at 100% (it doesn't really say much else, though.)
>
> Dan
>
>

I seem to recall that one was treecleaned a good while back, few
months.  I can't recall the name but think it was something KDE
related.  I seem to recall --depclean removing it or something here. 
Can't recall why it was removed from the tree tho.

That said, I tried Knutclient here and while it works, it doesn't say
much.  It seems most features don't work with the UPS I have.  It does
show on the command line with a upsc command.  Maybe I need some
different settings or something. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Mick]

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On Sunday, 29 October 2017 01:56:52 GMT Dale wrote:
> Daniel Frey wrote:
> > Well, that's odd. I just built it and see nothing of the sort. I built
> > it with all USE flags.
> > 
> > I am not using nut now, but I was trying it about a year ago. I did
> > have a client (it wasn't knutclient), maybe it was removed from the
> > tree. That's disappointing.
> > 
> > How much information do your users need? I'm running KDE5 with apcupsd
> > and an APC UPS, and the battery monitor built in to KDE shows me that
> > the battery is at 100% (it doesn't really say much else, though.)
> > 
> > Dan
> 
> I seem to recall that one was treecleaned a good while back, few
> months.  I can't recall the name but think it was something KDE
> related.  I seem to recall --depclean removing it or something here. 
> Can't recall why it was removed from the tree tho.
> 
> That said, I tried Knutclient here and while it works, it doesn't say
> much.  It seems most features don't work with the UPS I have.  It does
> show on the command line with a upsc command.  Maybe I need some
> different settings or something. 
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-) 

On a small UPS knutclient shows the current load, to avoid stupidly plugging 
in unsuitable devices in the UPS like printers and then blaming the UPS - it 
has happened ... sigh ... ;  it shows input voltage, output voltage and 
runtime on battery.  On a larger UPS it also shows temperature.  When in a 
power cut you're trying to save your work before a shutdown starts, running 
upsc and reading line by line the output can take longer than glancing at the 
GUI.  Life will carry on without it, but it is nevertheless a convenient 
gadget to have for some users.

Perhaps I should enable the cgi flag and see what web interface this offers, 
although I can guess it will require a web browser to run on the PC acting as 
a nut server.  Anyone used this?  

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Sunday, 29 October 2017 01:56:52 GMT Dale wrote:
>> Daniel Frey wrote:
>>> Well, that's odd. I just built it and see nothing of the sort. I built
>>> it with all USE flags.
>>>
>>> I am not using nut now, but I was trying it about a year ago. I did
>>> have a client (it wasn't knutclient), maybe it was removed from the
>>> tree. That's disappointing.
>>>
>>> How much information do your users need? I'm running KDE5 with apcupsd
>>> and an APC UPS, and the battery monitor built in to KDE shows me that
>>> the battery is at 100% (it doesn't really say much else, though.)
>>>
>>> Dan
>> I seem to recall that one was treecleaned a good while back, few
>> months.  I can't recall the name but think it was something KDE
>> related.  I seem to recall --depclean removing it or something here. 
>> Can't recall why it was removed from the tree tho.
>>
>> That said, I tried Knutclient here and while it works, it doesn't say
>> much.  It seems most features don't work with the UPS I have.  It does
>> show on the command line with a upsc command.  Maybe I need some
>> different settings or something. 
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> :-)  :-) 
> On a small UPS knutclient shows the current load, to avoid stupidly plugging 
> in unsuitable devices in the UPS like printers and then blaming the UPS - it 
> has happened ... sigh ... ;  it shows input voltage, output voltage and 
> runtime on battery.  On a larger UPS it also shows temperature.  When in a 
> power cut you're trying to save your work before a shutdown starts, running 
> upsc and reading line by line the output can take longer than glancing at the 
> GUI.  Life will carry on without it, but it is nevertheless a convenient 
> gadget to have for some users.
>
> Perhaps I should enable the cgi flag and see what web interface this offers, 
> although I can guess it will require a web browser to run on the PC acting as 
> a nut server.  Anyone used this?  
>


I noticed when I tried it that it stuck it in the little panel thingy at
the bottom.  Thing is, mine shows so little info, even in the main
screen, I'm not quite sure what the point is in having it.  I think it
showed it was using line power, model and run time.  That's it.  I hate
to say it but that doesn't tell me anything I don't already know.  Heck,
I can push the button on the front of the UPS and tell that and a whole
lot more. 

What is weird, upsc shows the info but the GUI doesn't.  Pretty weird. 

Power failures aren't as often the past few years anyway.  I could
almost make it without a UPS BUT I do like having that extra
protection.  Mine has some serious surge protection in it plus
brownout/over voltage protection/warning as well.  While I have a fairly
decent power supply in this rig, I didn't buy the cheapest thing out
there, having a little extra is nice.  May save my bacon one day.  ;-)

I still can't recall the name of the treecleaned version tho.  It seems
it was depending on something else that was removed. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Wols Lists]

On 29/10/17 11:21, Dale wrote:
> Power failures aren't as often the past few years anyway.  I could
> almost make it without a UPS BUT I do like having that extra
> protection.  Mine has some serious surge protection in it plus
> brownout/over voltage protection/warning as well.  While I have a fairly
> decent power supply in this rig, I didn't buy the cheapest thing out
> there, having a little extra is nice.  May save my bacon one day.  ;-)

Depends where you live. Are you in the States?

I'm in the UK and powercuts are almost unheard of AT THE MOMENT. But we
keep getting dire warnings that our generation is going down, while
demand is going up, and they are on the verge of crossing ...

Dunno what's going to happen then, but we tend to get trips and cuts,
not brownouts, so we could be in for a nasty shock in the not too
distant future :-(

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Mick]

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On Sunday, 29 October 2017 19:01:37 GMT Wols Lists wrote:
> On 29/10/17 11:21, Dale wrote:
> > Power failures aren't as often the past few years anyway.  I could
> > almost make it without a UPS BUT I do like having that extra
> > protection.  Mine has some serious surge protection in it plus
> > brownout/over voltage protection/warning as well.  While I have a fairly
> > decent power supply in this rig, I didn't buy the cheapest thing out
> > there, having a little extra is nice.  May save my bacon one day.  ;-)
> 
> Depends where you live. Are you in the States?
> 
> I'm in the UK and powercuts are almost unheard of AT THE MOMENT. But we
> keep getting dire warnings that our generation is going down, while
> demand is going up, and they are on the verge of crossing ...
> 
> Dunno what's going to happen then, but we tend to get trips and cuts,
> not brownouts, so we could be in for a nasty shock in the not too
> distant future :-(
> 
> Cheers,
> Wol

You may have missed it but the shocks you are talking about have already 
happened:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/25/blackout-friday-in-central-london-as-power-cut-hits-west-end

and are ongoing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/10020434/Terrifying-explosion-in-central-London-caught-on-camera.html

BTW, perhaps in UK cities general and unpredicted power cuts are relatively 
rare and brownouts don't occur often.  Out in the sticks the infrastructure is 
so neglected power cuts and brown outs can be a weekly occurrence.  I just 
bought yet another UPS to protect my TV and media devices, having suffered 
catastrophic failures in the past.  :-(

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Wols Lists]

On 29/10/17 19:11, Mick wrote:
> BTW, perhaps in UK cities general and unpredicted power cuts are relatively 
> rare and brownouts don't occur often.  Out in the sticks the infrastructure is 
> so neglected power cuts and brown outs can be a weekly occurrence.  I just 
> bought yet another UPS to protect my TV and media devices, having suffered 
> catastrophic failures in the past.  :-(

That looks like infrastructure failure, not plain insufficient power
which is what we are apparently heading for. Certainly the "explosions"
one is "old news" - where I worked suffered this sort of failure in the
early 90's.

The story as I understood it was some crooks went down a manhole to try
and blow their way into a Lloyds Bank vault. Unfortunately, between them
and the vault was a - somewhat overloaded - 50KV supply line. When the
charge went off, this shorted for some 5 miles of cable :-(

It's too long ago now, I think it happened on a Sunday night so we came
in to work to no power. They got an emergency rig up and running Monday
afternoon, one phase back by about Wednesday, and everything back to
normal the following Monday. This was the Kings Road in London!

But the new feature is just "not enough power" - that really will be a
problem!

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 19:11:13 +0000, Mick wrote:

> BTW, perhaps in UK cities general and unpredicted power cuts are
> relatively rare and brownouts don't occur often.  Out in the sticks the
> infrastructure is so neglected power cuts and brown outs can be a
> weekly occurrence.  I just bought yet another UPS to protect my TV and
> media devices, having suffered catastrophic failures in the past.  :-(

I can see the power station cooling towers from my house, but I still used
to get flickering lights and repeated ha


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Is that "woof" feed me; "woof" walk me; "woof" rdware failures
until I invested in a UPS or two.there's a burglar? What??

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Dale]

Wols Lists wrote:
> On 29/10/17 11:21, Dale wrote:
>> Power failures aren't as often the past few years anyway.  I could
>> almost make it without a UPS BUT I do like having that extra
>> protection.  Mine has some serious surge protection in it plus
>> brownout/over voltage protection/warning as well.  While I have a fairly
>> decent power supply in this rig, I didn't buy the cheapest thing out
>> there, having a little extra is nice.  May save my bacon one day.  ;-)
> Depends where you live. Are you in the States?
>
> I'm in the UK and powercuts are almost unheard of AT THE MOMENT. But we
> keep getting dire warnings that our generation is going down, while
> demand is going up, and they are on the verge of crossing ...
>
> Dunno what's going to happen then, but we tend to get trips and cuts,
> not brownouts, so we could be in for a nasty shock in the not too
> distant future :-(
>
> Cheers,
> Wol

Yes, I do live in the States.  When I built my first rig well over a
decade ago, we had lots of power problems.  Some of the wires were many
decades old, had been spliced many times from trees failing on them, had
trees grown up into the lines and such.  Blinks, drop outs and such were
pretty much a daily thing even when weather was nice outside, no rain or
wind.  The local power companies told people that if they have trees
close to or under power lines, they were going to be dealt with, either
by the property owners or the power companies.  That was one of the
problems.  Trees were allowed to grow to the point they would touch the
lines or would fall on the lines during storms/winds.  It took years, a
decade or so, to get the trees cleared out.  Some were not happy but all
the power companies have the right to trim trees that can contact the
lines.  When they came to talk to me, I told them to cut anything that
could touch the lines or was dying and could touch the lines with wind
behind it.  Hey, I want to have good power too.  I have two fridges, two
freezers, a computer, TVs and such that like clean power.  Even things
like a well pump likes reasonably clean power.

Also, several years ago, they replaced the main lines all the way from
the substation to just up the road about half a mile from here.  Since
then, brownouts and such are rare.  Even during some pretty strong
storms, power is stable.  They replaced a good ten miles worth of
lines.  They also upgraded to three phase since a large grain and river
port was built across the woods.  They have HUGE, I mean HUGE,
fans/blowers over there.  At night, even tho I'm close to a mile away, I
can go outside and listen to the whirring noise they make. 

We also have issues because of our aging infrastructure.  Thing is, at
some point the companies are going to realize they must step up and
upgrade/replace some things.  Just like the old lines out here, once it
cost more to keep repairing them instead of replacing them, they
replaced them.  One thing to keep in mind, if the meter isn't turning,
they are losing money.  It may take a while but eventually, power
companies will have to deal with that.  To make money, the meter has to
have power going through it. 

I've read where a lot of countries are having issues like that.  On one
hand, they want us to use power, that way they make money.  On the other
hand, they claim to want us to conserve power.  Which is it?  LOL 

I wouldn't dream of running my puter a decade ago without a UPS.  I just
had way to many power problems back then.  I even took the top off the
UPS and stuck tape over the beeper.  Every time the power would drop,
surge or something, it would beep.  I do like to sleep at least a
little.  Now tho, it's good to have in case of a severe storm but the
UPS rarely complains.  It has improved to the point that my newer UPS is
allowed to beep.  ;-) 

I might add, my old UPS is now running my TV.  I'm going to catch them
on sale one day and get one for the living room TV as well. 

I've always seen UPSs as the best insurance of decent power.  I find
them handy for almost anything electronic.  No matter where a person
lives, good power is sometimes just not going to be there. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 14:46:02 -0500
Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've always seen UPSs as the best insurance of decent power.  I find
> them handy for almost anything electronic.  No matter where a person
> lives, good power is sometimes just not going to be there. 

I spent an instructive 1990 summer afternoon in Minnesota talking to an
experienced linesman. He described a two-phase, 110V 60Hz supply to most
consumers in USA (180-degree phase angle), with floating earths and
immensely long, thin links between population centres. I was appalled at
the rickety, piecemeal system he described - though of course the geography
necessitates the long links.

That was just one view, of course.

In the UK our supplies are three-phase, 230V at 50Hz (120-degree phase
angles), with all earths tied down securely at distribution voltages (33KV
and below - the ones on wooden poles where they're above ground). Grid and
supergrid lines are delta-connected though, rather than the star
connections of lower voltages.

Today's forecasts of doom are the result of 30 years of dithering by
governments of all stripes, neglecting to invest in new generation in spite
of its absolute indispensability. Not to mention the squandering of North
Sea gas on small-scale generation to fill gaps.

Whatever happened to the long-term, whole-system view? It all makes me want
to weep sometimes.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Mick]

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On Monday, 30 October 2017 09:10:07 GMT Peter Humphrey wrote:
> Today's forecasts of doom are the result of 30 years of dithering by
> governments of all stripes, neglecting to invest in new generation in spite
> of its absolute indispensability.

I'll refrain from jumping into arguments on political neo-liberal decisions to 
privatise utilities, which are /natural monopolies/ and how the 
financialisation of our anglo-saxon economies has reduced the attention span 
of corporations and the politicians funded by them to tomorrow morning's news 
headlines.

The point of indispensability of centralised energy generation though may no 
longer be as absolute as once was.  Microgeneration technologies and emerging 
storage solutions could mean the future electricity grid resembles more of a 
local mesh network, than the national scale infrastructure of the previous 
century.

Now, I better look into finding a way to silence this new UPS fan which seems 
to be going on 24/7 with or without load on it!  o_O

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Daniel Frey]

On 10/30/2017 03:15 AM, Mick wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 09:10:07 GMT Peter Humphrey wrote:
>> Today's forecasts of doom are the result of 30 years of dithering by
>> governments of all stripes, neglecting to invest in new generation in spite
>> of its absolute indispensability.
> 
> I'll refrain from jumping into arguments on political neo-liberal decisions to
> privatise utilities, which are /natural monopolies/ and how the
> financialisation of our anglo-saxon economies has reduced the attention span
> of corporations and the politicians funded by them to tomorrow morning's news
> headlines.
> 
> The point of indispensability of centralised energy generation though may no
> longer be as absolute as once was.  Microgeneration technologies and emerging
> storage solutions could mean the future electricity grid resembles more of a
> local mesh network, than the national scale infrastructure of the previous
> century.
> 
> Now, I better look into finding a way to silence this new UPS fan which seems
> to be going on 24/7 with or without load on it!  o_O
> 

Some new UPS systems are designed to have the fan running all the time. 
I don't think it's a good idea to stop it...

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Mick]

On Monday, 30 October 2017 14:09:58 GMT Daniel Frey wrote:
> On 10/30/2017 03:15 AM, Mick wrote:

> > Now, I better look into finding a way to silence this new UPS fan which
> > seems to be going on 24/7 with or without load on it!  o_O
> 
> Some new UPS systems are designed to have the fan running all the time.
> I don't think it's a good idea to stop it...
> 
> Dan

Right, I suspect it is meant to be running all the time, at high speed when 
running on battery and low speed at all other times.  This is a 2nd hand HP 
T1000 G3 I bought cheaply, because many of the new entry level UPS appliances 
being sold today are not fit for human consumption, judging by user reviews. 

-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Daniel Frey]

On 10/30/2017 07:47 AM, Mick wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 14:09:58 GMT Daniel Frey wrote:
>> On 10/30/2017 03:15 AM, Mick wrote:
> 
>>> Now, I better look into finding a way to silence this new UPS fan which
>>> seems to be going on 24/7 with or without load on it!  o_O
>>
>> Some new UPS systems are designed to have the fan running all the time.
>> I don't think it's a good idea to stop it...
>>
>> Dan
> 
> Right, I suspect it is meant to be running all the time, at high speed when
> running on battery and low speed at all other times.  This is a 2nd hand HP
> T1000 G3 I bought cheaply, because many of the new entry level UPS appliances
> being sold today are not fit for human consumption, judging by user reviews.
> 

Yeah, I found that out. One of my UPSs crapped out after a power failure 
a couple weeks ago, then I realized it's from 2006...

I did some looking around (I had an APC) and all the APC branded crap 
you get in the stores are cheaper, inferior options. I found out the 
BX-prefixed models don't even have proper AVR (they only correct when 
the voltage drops below a certain point, they don't do anything in an 
overvoltage situation. The BR-prefixed models are like the old UPS of 
lore, they offer true AVR for both undervolt and overvolt situations, 
and the one I have even has an option for an extra battery pack for 
extended runtime (BR1500G.)

Basically anything in Best Buy, Staples, or similar stores is guaranteed 
to have the consumer BX model junk.

APC gave me a reseller that sold me the BR1500G model and it was about 
$50 more.

And as a bonus, it still works with apcupsd. I heard some newer APC 
models are using some new proprietary communication protocols. Never 
seen one in practice though, I wonder if that's the consumer junk I was 
reading about.

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Daniel Frey]

On 10/30/2017 12:33 PM, Daniel Frey wrote:
> I did some looking around (I had an APC) and all the APC branded crap 
> you get in the stores are cheaper, inferior options. I found out the 
> BX-prefixed models don't even have proper AVR (they only correct when 
> the voltage drops below a certain point, they don't do anything in an 
> overvoltage situation. The BR-prefixed models are like the old UPS of 
> lore, they offer true AVR for both undervolt and overvolt situations, 
> and the one I have even has an option for an extra battery pack for 
> extended runtime (BR1500G.)

I should add that at least APC designated the BX and BR models as 
different product lines... the BX models are known as Back-UPS XS 
models, and the BR line is knows as Back-UPS Pro models.

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I did some looking around (I had an APC) and all the APC branded crap you
> get in the stores are cheaper, inferior options. I found out the BX-prefixed
> models don't even have proper AVR (they only correct when the voltage drops
> below a certain point, they don't do anything in an overvoltage situation.
> The BR-prefixed models are like the old UPS of lore, they offer true AVR for
> both undervolt and overvolt situations, and the one I have even has an
> option for an extra battery pack for extended runtime (BR1500G.)
>
> Basically anything in Best Buy, Staples, or similar stores is guaranteed to
> have the consumer BX model junk.
>

This is my experience as well.  I went with a Cyberpower CP1500PFC and
have been very happy with it, and I think it falls into the
better-quality level of stuff (though I'm sure the server-oriented
stuff is better still if you're willing to pay).

I have no idea how long the battery will last but when it dies I'll
probably replace it.

The stuff sold in stores tends to be junk.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I did some looking around (I had an APC) and all the APC branded crap you
>> get in the stores are cheaper, inferior options. I found out the BX-prefixed
>> models don't even have proper AVR (they only correct when the voltage drops
>> below a certain point, they don't do anything in an overvoltage situation.
>> The BR-prefixed models are like the old UPS of lore, they offer true AVR for
>> both undervolt and overvolt situations, and the one I have even has an
>> option for an extra battery pack for extended runtime (BR1500G.)
>>
>> Basically anything in Best Buy, Staples, or similar stores is guaranteed to
>> have the consumer BX model junk.
>>
> This is my experience as well.  I went with a Cyberpower CP1500PFC and
> have been very happy with it, and I think it falls into the
> better-quality level of stuff (though I'm sure the server-oriented
> stuff is better still if you're willing to pay).
>
> I have no idea how long the battery will last but when it dies I'll
> probably replace it.
>
> The stuff sold in stores tends to be junk.
>

I have a CyberPower as well.  Two actually.  One is old, 2003 old and
the other is a few years old, bought it a little while after building
this rig.  Before I bought, I went online and found pics of the insides
to see what was in them.  When I find one that has good reviews and some
good surge protection, that is the one I buy.  I have been known to take
the cover off to make sure mine has them too.  We do get surges and such
during storms.  While it is usually plugged into a surge strip already,
the more the better.  Actually, surge at the wall, UPS, then another
surge strip that all my stuff plugs into.  There isn't enough plugs on
the back of the UPS for everything anyway. 

On my old UPS, I had to replace the battery a few months ago, second
time.  Both of them actually ripped apart.  They didn't explode or
anything but they did split apart badly.  If it had been a liquid
battery, it would have been nasty.  That said, they do last a long
time.  I get 7 to 8 years pretty easy from a set of batteries.  If that
little light comes on to check battery, check it.  It isn't kidding
around.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Mick]

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On Monday, 30 October 2017 21:01:35 GMT Dale wrote:
> While it is usually plugged into a surge strip already,
> the more the better.  Actually, surge at the wall, UPS, then another
> surge strip that all my stuff plugs into.

I'm sure I have read in some UPS manual that it should be plugged directly 
into the mains socket and not via a surge protector.  I assumed the manual 
stated this because when the varistors in the surge protector start conducting 
excess current during a surge, this could start competing against the AVR in 
the UPS, flipping the battery on/off and perhaps causing a race condition.  I 
haven't looked into it, but that's how I perceived it at the time.

Of course we're talking of normal transients here, not a direct hit by a 
lightning!  LOL!
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[mad.scientist.at.large]

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no, varistors (what's in nearly all surge suppressors) either clamp the voltage at about twice what it should be, or fail shorted which they tend to do eventually (harmlessly blowing a fuse hopefully).   

the issue is with plugging one thing, into another, into another and then into the wall, most outlet strips are cheap, they don't use proper sockets and often have/develop a significant resistance, which creates a hazard etc.  Outlet strips also tell you not to plug one into the another, in this case it's the resistance problem and the risk that some consumers will run outlet strips all along a wall etc. pluged one into the other, which will eventually cause problems, because no one maintains outlet strips and few keep them clean and dry (it's easy to imagine someone in an older apartment having 10+ strips plugged into each other).   And that's without pets, cat's for one have been known to urinate on outlets when mad, doesn't hurt an isolated cat but plays havoc with the outlet besides smelling terrible (likely the cats' motive).   The reason newer houses have so many outlets is precisely to discourage the use of extension cords and prevent fires, an outlet strip isn't much better, and the fuse/breaker in any device only offers short circuit protection, a small overload or partial short in the load won't do it (unless you choose fuses/breakers very near the rated current, in which case you get nuisance blows/trips).  note that when the connectors develop a higher resistance that the current actually decreases, but the energy dissipated in the connection produces excessive heat, which generally drives resistance higher until there's enough to start a fire or be noticed.  the varistors are not the problem, note that computer power supplies and many peripherals include varistors for surge suppression and don't cause ups problems.

on the other hand, you probably shouldn't use gas arrestors after an ups, when they conduct they short hard (gas plasma) and show a negative dynamic resistance which is a really good way to make something oscillate (not good for the ups) and definately will produce an excessive load for half a power cycle.  

gas arrestors are slower, but have unlimited short capacity, MOVs are faster but can absorb less energy typically.  Thats why really good multistage arrestors use both, the MOVs conduct quickly and help limit the peak voltage, then the gas discharge tubes conduct and take most of the surge energy.  either/both on the input side of the ups won't cause problems (and will help protect the ups), on the output side gas discharge tubes would be bad, varistors are fine at least until they short and blow a fuse,  that's what fuses are for.  there is a slight problem that some varistors start getting hot under normal conditions (failing but not yet shorted) which is why the manufacturers recomend adding a series thermal fuse thermally coupled to the varistor to disconect them in this case (and ideally the load depending on how things are wired).

There are actually multistage devices that can protect low voltage lines (i.e. control lines on a transmitter tower) from a direct lightning strike assuming they have a good enough ground connection.  of course it's likely to destroy the surge arrestor, which isn't cheap, but it protects far more expensive equipment when it self sacrifices. 

mad.scientist.at.large (a good madscientist)
--
"The U.S. intelligence community concluded in a report made public in January that the Kremlin sought to disrupt the 2016 election and sway the race in Trump's favor."  From "thehill.com". 


30. Oct 2017 17:39 by michaelkintzios@gmail.com:


> On Monday, 30 October 2017 21:01:35 GMT Dale wrote:
>> While it is usually plugged into a surge strip already,
>> the more the better.  Actually, surge at the wall, UPS, then another
>> surge strip that all my stuff plugs into.
>
> I'm sure I have read in some UPS manual that it should be plugged directly 
> into the mains socket and not via a surge protector.  I assumed the manual 
> stated this because when the varistors in the surge protector start conducting 
> excess current during a surge, this could start competing against the AVR in 
> the UPS, flipping the battery on/off and perhaps causing a race condition.  I 
> haven't looked into it, but that's how I perceived it at the time.
>
> Of course we're talking of normal transients here, not a direct hit by a 
> lightning!  LOL!
> -- 
> Regards,
> Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Wols Lists]

On 31/10/17 00:09, mad.scientist.at.large@tutanota.com wrote:

> 
> the issue is with plugging one thing, into another, into another and
> then into the wall, most outlet strips are cheap, they don't use proper
> sockets and often have/develop a significant resistance, which creates a
> hazard etc.  

In the UK at least also, we have ring mains. These are rated at 30 Amps,
from which you can take a 13 Amp feed from any socket. Once you start
taking power over multiple leads the wiring has more resistance, plugs
introduce resistance, etc, and the voltage can drop rapidly.

(It is mandatory, according to code, if you hard-wire a feed off a ring
you must separate it with a 16 Amp fuse.)
> 

> 
> There are actually multistage devices that can protect low voltage lines
> (i.e. control lines on a transmitter tower) from a direct lightning
> strike assuming they have a good enough ground connection.  of course
> it's likely to destroy the surge arrestor, which isn't cheap, but it
> protects far more expensive equipment when it self sacrifices.
> 
I've never seen one, but I would have thought a motor/generator pair
with a hefty flywheel would provide very good surge/spike/whatever
protection, and provide nice clean power. Plus, it would be unlikely to
burn out if you had to provide protection from several big consecutive
shocks, like a lightning strike.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:33:53 +0000
Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:

> In the UK at least also, we have ring mains. These are rated at 30 Amps,
> from which you can take a 13 Amp feed from any socket. Once you start
> taking power over multiple leads the wiring has more resistance, plugs
> introduce resistance, etc, and the voltage can drop rapidly.

I've never seen that, nor heard of it. It sounds like a major fire risk too,
which the wiring regs would never countenance.

> (It is mandatory, according to code, if you hard-wire a feed off a ring
> you must separate it with a 16 Amp fuse.)

I don't recognise that either. It sounds like a special case to me. And
where do I buy a 16A fuse?

> I've never seen one, but I would have thought a motor/generator pair
> with a hefty flywheel would provide very good surge/spike/whatever
> protection, and provide nice clean power. Plus, it would be unlikely to
> burn out if you had to provide protection from several big consecutive
> shocks, like a lightning strike.

Just think of the noise though, and the expense.

-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Wols Lists]

On 31/10/17 23:29, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2017 17:33:53 +0000
> Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:
> 
>> In the UK at least also, we have ring mains. These are rated at 30 Amps,
>> from which you can take a 13 Amp feed from any socket. Once you start
>> taking power over multiple leads the wiring has more resistance, plugs
>> introduce resistance, etc, and the voltage can drop rapidly.
> 
> I've never seen that, nor heard of it. It sounds like a major fire risk too,
> which the wiring regs would never countenance.

Sorry, no, I meant plugging one extension lead into another ... exactly
what you are NOT supposed to do.
> 
>> (It is mandatory, according to code, if you hard-wire a feed off a ring
>> you must separate it with a 16 Amp fuse.)
> 
> I don't recognise that either. It sounds like a special case to me. And
> where do I buy a 16A fuse?
> 
Well, I've got several scattered over my house ... and my father-in-law
has at least one in his fuse box!


You would have thought it was easy to take a spur off of a socket that's
part of a ring main, but believe me, as an amateur sparky it's NOT! They
sell special points - often with a switch - to take a feed off a ring,
and they all have a - mandatory - 16Amp fuse. Or they might take a
standard 13Amp fuse.

My father-in-law has a spur coming off his fuse box, and that has a
16Amp fuse or circuit breaker, rather than the standard 30Amp. I did a
bit of wiring for him ages ago, and when I saw it, my immediate reaction
was "what the heck's that!" and I refused to touch it until I'd worked
out what was going on - very sensible advice with electric!

>> I've never seen one, but I would have thought a motor/generator pair
>> with a hefty flywheel would provide very good surge/spike/whatever
>> protection, and provide nice clean power. Plus, it would be unlikely to
>> burn out if you had to provide protection from several big consecutive
>> shocks, like a lightning strike.
> 
> Just think of the noise though, and the expense.
> 
Why should it be noisy, or expensive? Okay, you're turning electrical
energy into kinetic and back again, but a computer draws typically 2Amps
max. A box like that to provide clean power shouldn't be too bad.
(Actually, using something like that as the PSU to step down to 12V or
5V might be a good idea in areas of dirty power ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wed, 1 Nov 2017 12:45:53 +0000

> You would have thought it was easy to take a spur off of a socket that's
> part of a ring main,

It used to be easy enough - provided that the spur had no more than two
single sockets or one double. Maybe the regs have changed yet again.

> but believe me, as an amateur sparky it's NOT! They
> sell special points - often with a switch - to take a feed off a ring,
> and they all have a - mandatory - 16Amp fuse. Or they might take a
> standard 13Amp fuse.

I've never seen anything like that, but then I've been retired for 29
years. Come to think of it, that's long enough to include several changes
of the regs. One wonders just where it's all going to end.
 
-- 
Regards,
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 21:01:35 GMT Dale wrote:
>> While it is usually plugged into a surge strip already,
>> the more the better.  Actually, surge at the wall, UPS, then another
>> surge strip that all my stuff plugs into.
> I'm sure I have read in some UPS manual that it should be plugged directly 
> into the mains socket and not via a surge protector.  I assumed the manual 
> stated this because when the varistors in the surge protector start conducting 
> excess current during a surge, this could start competing against the AVR in 
> the UPS, flipping the battery on/off and perhaps causing a race condition.  I 
> haven't looked into it, but that's how I perceived it at the time.
>
> Of course we're talking of normal transients here, not a direct hit by a 
> lightning!  LOL!


I've read that too but I've also read that if the UPS never sees the
transient spike then the UPS shouldn't react to something it never
sees.  Thing is, the UPS costs more than the surge strip does, at least
mine does anyway.  I'd much rather the surge strip burn out than it
damage my UPS.  I'd rather sacrifice the cheaper component first.

As you point out, if it is a direct hit, or even a not so direct hit,
nothing is going to help the UPS at that point or anything connected to
it.  Lightening is a evil and mean thing to electronics and even motors
and such when big enough.  I've seen surge protectors blown completely
apart like someone stuck explosives in there.  Sometimes, the stuff
attached is unharmed.  Sometimes it is.  Depends on just how hard a hit
it is I guess. 

I'm hoping to get me a whole house surge protector that goes in the main
breaker box soon.  They have come down in price since more companies are
making them and there is some competition.  If I use one of those, the
UPS is going to have a surge protector in front of it anyway, whether I
have one at the wall or not.  I haven't found one but read that there is
one that goes under the meter that works very well, if grounded real
good.  I've read they are expensive and the power company has to install
them, since they are under the meter. 

Either way, I hope I don't get hit, at all.  I don't want to even a
little bit.  Heck, I don't like the little spikes/brownouts either.  We
all know how weird that can make a computer act up.  Random resets,
memory issues, CPU issues and no telling what else. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Daniel Frey]

On 10/30/2017 12:40 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I did some looking around (I had an APC) and all the APC branded crap you
>> get in the stores are cheaper, inferior options. I found out the BX-prefixed
>> models don't even have proper AVR (they only correct when the voltage drops
>> below a certain point, they don't do anything in an overvoltage situation.
>> The BR-prefixed models are like the old UPS of lore, they offer true AVR for
>> both undervolt and overvolt situations, and the one I have even has an
>> option for an extra battery pack for extended runtime (BR1500G.)
>>
>> Basically anything in Best Buy, Staples, or similar stores is guaranteed to
>> have the consumer BX model junk.
>>
> 
> This is my experience as well.  I went with a Cyberpower CP1500PFC and
> have been very happy with it, and I think it falls into the
> better-quality level of stuff (though I'm sure the server-oriented
> stuff is better still if you're willing to pay).
> 
> I have no idea how long the battery will last but when it dies I'll
> probably replace it.
> 
> The stuff sold in stores tends to be junk.
> 

Yes, that's a good UPS, it's a pure sine wave UPS. APC makes those too, 
but generally in the server/enterprise class (thinking Smart-UPS among 
others) and not the home oriented market.

I figure for home use their better (best?) home oriented model should 
suffice. I don't have a picky power supply that needs a pure sine wave 
UPS, although I have realized a lot of newer power supplies strongly 
recommend a pure sine wave and not a stepped sine wave such as in the 
home models (the entry- and mid-models.)

 From what I recall if your PSU buzzes while on battery, that's bad and 
your PSU is not happy...

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[mad.scientist.at.large]

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if the fan is running all the time, i'd keep it of the floor and out of the dust as much as possible.  might add a filter to the inlet, i've done it on processor fans and it doesn't seem to have any negative effect, though you have to remember to check it occasionally.  The fan likely makes it much more robust and allows smaller heatsinks inside.   If you're handy, you could also replace the fan with a more silent  fan as long as you at least match the airflow rating of the current fan.  There is a wide range of fans the same physical size but widely varying air flows and power consumption, any thing from 0/0r amps to 2 amps in the 80mm, and that's just what i've seen.   The fan also likely extends  the allowable ambient temperature as well.

mad.scientist.at.large (a good madscientist)
--
"The U.S. intelligence community concluded in a report made public in January that the Kremlin sought to disrupt the 2016 election and sway the race in Trump's favor."  From "thehill.com".  Only Trump and his duplicitous supports try to say it was Clinton who conspired.  Frankly Trump is likely guilty of treason, the sooner he's impeached and indited the better, along with ALL of his supporters in goverment.


30. Oct 2017 08:47 by michaelkintzios@gmail.com:


> On Monday, 30 October 2017 14:09:58 GMT Daniel Frey wrote:
>> On 10/30/2017 03:15 AM, Mick wrote:
>> > Now, I better look into finding a way to silence this new UPS fan which
>> > seems to be going on 24/7 with or without load on it!  o_O
>>
>> Some new UPS systems are designed to have the fan running all the time.
>> I don't think it's a good idea to stop it...
>>
>> Dan
>
> Right, I suspect it is meant to be running all the time, at high speed when 
> running on battery and low speed at all other times.  This is a 2nd hand HP 
> T1000 G3 I bought cheaply, because many of the new entry level UPS appliances 
> being sold today are not fit for human consumption, judging by user reviews. 
>
> -- 
> Regards,
> Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Dale]

Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 14:46:02 -0500
> Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've always seen UPSs as the best insurance of decent power.  I find
>> them handy for almost anything electronic.  No matter where a person
>> lives, good power is sometimes just not going to be there. 
> I spent an instructive 1990 summer afternoon in Minnesota talking to an
> experienced linesman. He described a two-phase, 110V 60Hz supply to most
> consumers in USA (180-degree phase angle), with floating earths and
> immensely long, thin links between population centres. I was appalled at
> the rickety, piecemeal system he described - though of course the geography
> necessitates the long links.
>
> That was just one view, of course.
>
> In the UK our supplies are three-phase, 230V at 50Hz (120-degree phase
> angles), with all earths tied down securely at distribution voltages (33KV
> and below - the ones on wooden poles where they're above ground). Grid and
> supergrid lines are delta-connected though, rather than the star
> connections of lower voltages.
>
> Today's forecasts of doom are the result of 30 years of dithering by
> governments of all stripes, neglecting to invest in new generation in spite
> of its absolute indispensability. Not to mention the squandering of North
> Sea gas on small-scale generation to fill gaps.
>
> Whatever happened to the long-term, whole-system view? It all makes me want
> to weep sometimes.
>

This is just one way of thinking.  When a company, or companies, are
individually owned or family owned, they are generally passed down to
the next generation.  When in that situation, one tends to look at the
long term goals.  They look at the bigger picture and not just 'what
have we profited on today'.   However, when a company is public, stocks
and such, then it is about what have we made today with no one caring
about years from now.  After all, the people owning the stocks may not
even own them next week. 

Think about it this way.  Some large power company that is publicly
owned goes out and says they are about to invest hundreds of millions or
billions of {whatever currency} in improving the grid and
infrastructure.  What would that do to their stocks to know that they
are about to spend money that won't have a return for decades maybe even
longer?  Odds are, they just dropped.  It's about the same thing that
happens when a company is sued and has to pay a huge settlement, fine
etc.  Only difference being, one may have a return and one won't for
sure.  One is a 'gamble' if you will. 

I think we both agree that companies should look long term, it's not
likely they ever will.  Their stock owners would cringe if they did, the
Govt types are going to get in the way if they can, regulate it to death
if nothing else, and here we sit. 

So, in the meantime, we have to buy UPSs because the power we are
getting is not as dependable as it should be.  In all honesty, odds are
the power I get here is a lot more stable than some other countries,
even some areas in my country.  Generally, it takes a storm of some kind
to knock our lights out.  Some areas, it just takes a warm day. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> have we profited on today'.   However, when a company is public, stocks
> and such, then it is about what have we made today with no one caring
> about years from now.  After all, the people owning the stocks may not
> even own them next week.
>

Nor should they be concerned with the long-term.  This should be the
role of the regulator.  If the regulator wants spare capacity, then
they should take bids for companies to have spare capacity available
and they get paid to just sit on their excess capacity.  If the
regulator wants more redundancy in the transmission network then they
should set specifications for what is desired and take bids from those
able to build it out.  If the regulator wants everything to be
replaced within a certified lifetime based on testing then they should
specify this, and take bids from those willing to maintain the grid to
this standard.

The problem is that the general public does not see the value in
infrastructure, so they don't think about it when they're voting.
Instead they vote based on whatever fringe issues the politicians want
them to focus on instead.

If a company is going to get paid the same whether they build for
extra reliability or not, they're going to opt not to.  Not only does
this give them more profits, but it makes their bids more competitive
vs some other company that would just undercut them for
"over-providing."

Lax regulation just punishes conscientious market participants.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Mick]

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On Monday, 30 October 2017 21:04:00 GMT Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> > have we profited on today'.   However, when a company is public, stocks
> > and such, then it is about what have we made today with no one caring
> > about years from now.  After all, the people owning the stocks may not
> > even own them next week.
> 
> Nor should they be concerned with the long-term.  

Not all shareholders flip their stock in milliseconds to front-end retail 
investors in market movements.  There are also few(er) long term investors, 
but they have been crowded out by big banks and hedge fund algo desks.


> This should be the
> role of the regulator.  If the regulator wants spare capacity, then
> they should take bids for companies to have spare capacity available
> and they get paid to just sit on their excess capacity.  If the
> regulator wants more redundancy in the transmission network then they
> should set specifications for what is desired and take bids from those
> able to build it out.  If the regulator wants everything to be
> replaced within a certified lifetime based on testing then they should
> specify this, and take bids from those willing to maintain the grid to
> this standard.

The problem is the regulator is typically a toothless entity, a paper tiger, 
put in place to apply soft touch intervention by issuing corrective notices, 
when step-in required to curtail the abusive behaviour of market participants 
is long overdue.

The regulator does not hold the budget, central government departments do and 
the regulator cannot (or will not) control abnormal profits privatised 
utilities are making year after year.  However, the regulator will engage 
enthusiastically in the a theatre of regular reviews of market conditions, in 
an attempt to convince consumers and tax payers the most gratuitous abuse of 
power is kept in check.


> The problem is that the general public does not see the value in
> infrastructure, so they don't think about it when they're voting.
> Instead they vote based on whatever fringe issues the politicians want
> them to focus on instead.
> 
> If a company is going to get paid the same whether they build for
> extra reliability or not, they're going to opt not to.  Not only does
> this give them more profits, but it makes their bids more competitive
> vs some other company that would just undercut them for
> "over-providing."

Even worse, on the usual design-build-operate contracts they are often 
motivated to undercut reliability for a more competitive price, hoping to bail 
out of the operate part just as the infrastructure is about to fall apart.


> Lax regulation just punishes conscientious market participants.

On tenders evaluated on a quality:price ratio basis this does not happen as 
often, although it is hard to change entrenched behaviours among competitors.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 21:04:00 GMT Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > have we profited on today'.   However, when a company is public, stocks
>> > and such, then it is about what have we made today with no one caring
>> > about years from now.  After all, the people owning the stocks may not
>> > even own them next week.
>>
>> Nor should they be concerned with the long-term.
>
> Not all shareholders flip their stock in milliseconds to front-end retail
> investors in market movements.  There are also few(er) long term investors,
> but they have been crowded out by big banks and hedge fund algo desks.

If the big banks thought that investing for the long term would make
them more money they would do it.  They have no loyalty to the
companies they invest in.  If they can invest in a company one month,
and make more money by investing in a competitor that will put them
out of business the next month, they will.  I'm not sure why a "long
term investor" wouldn't do the same if they could make money doing it.
They have money for the long-term, but that doesn't mean that they
have to keep it in once place.

I think liquidity was what ultimately killed long-term investing.
That and a lack of information.  Unless you decide to go the Buffet
route and actually take over the management of a company it is really
hard to tell if a company is eating its seed corn.  With the modern
market where you can sell millions of dollars of shares in a
microsecond with a reasonable spread there is rarely a reason to stick
with a company if you have even a speck of doubt as to its future.
And then of course there is the trend towards passive investing.
Ironically there the investments actually do tend to be long-term in
the same companies but the investors don't even care what the earnings
of those companies are - they'll hold the stock as long as most other
people are also holding the stock.

Also, the long term is probably not the main issue here as much as the
focus on the public good.  A utility that doesn't engineer for
reliability isn't thinking short-term, they're just maximizing profit.
If things break they can just fix them after they break.  Maybe a
hospital is out of power for a week, but that probably doesn't cost
the utility as much as preventing the outage.  The utility isn't going
to go out of business - they're still in it for the long-term.  This
is why you need regulators that look out for the public good.

>> This should be the
>> role of the regulator.  If the regulator wants spare capacity, then
>> they should take bids for companies to have spare capacity available
>> and they get paid to just sit on their excess capacity.  If the
>> regulator wants more redundancy in the transmission network then they
>> should set specifications for what is desired and take bids from those
>> able to build it out.  If the regulator wants everything to be
>> replaced within a certified lifetime based on testing then they should
>> specify this, and take bids from those willing to maintain the grid to
>> this standard.
>
> The problem is the regulator is typically a toothless entity, a paper tiger,
> put in place to apply soft touch intervention by issuing corrective notices,
> when step-in required to curtail the abusive behaviour of market participants
> is long overdue.
>

Sure, but there is no solution to this problem other than the public
taking attention and fixing the regulator.  The same issues would
exist with a public utility.  You can't compare a well-run public
utility to a poorly-run regulator of a private utility.

> Even worse, on the usual design-build-operate contracts they are often
> motivated to undercut reliability for a more competitive price, hoping to bail
> out of the operate part just as the infrastructure is about to fall apart.

Oh, they won't bail out.  They'll happily offer to sell their services
to fix the mess.  That actually is long-term thinking.  Anybody
looking to buy-and-hold utility stocks should be looking for
opportunities to invest in companies that have planned obsolescence
like this with regulators willing to let them get away with it.  :)

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Wols Lists]

On 30/10/17 23:42, Rich Freeman wrote:
> If the big banks thought that investing for the long term would make
> them more money they would do it.  They have no loyalty to the
> companies they invest in.  If they can invest in a company one month,
> and make more money by investing in a competitor that will put them
> out of business the next month, they will.  I'm not sure why a "long
> term investor" wouldn't do the same if they could make money doing it.
> They have money for the long-term, but that doesn't mean that they
> have to keep it in once place.

The banks have nothing to do with it.

The fund managers are rewarded for beating the index. They are NOT
punished for missing the index. That means a fund manager who is bang on
the average will get a bonus every second year. Paid for with investors'
money.

The quickest way for day traders to make a profit is to predict what the
big boys are going to do (easy if you understand that most of them are
index trackers who have little choice where to invest) and beat them to
it. Buy shares that you have good reason are going to join the index
next week, and dump them as soon as they do. Sell shares short that you
think are going to be dumped from the index, and buy them back
afterwards. Easy money!

The thing about investing is to remember that the big boys are simply
gambling with your money. If you can, do a Buffet, buy stocks you
understand, and hang on to them. They'll go up.

Imho the quickest way to stabilise the market and kill a lot of these
shenanigans would be to demand that pension funds invest in companies
that pay good dividends, well covered. In other words, if a company
earns 50p/share and pays a 10p dividend, then the dividend "is covered 5
times". That means the pensions can't invest in speculative, highly
geared companies. Which means those companies ARE going to invest in
themselves, and will be good, solid companies unlikely to go
spectacularly bust.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:
>  If you can, do a Buffet...
> ...
> ...demand that pension funds invest in companies that pay good dividends, well covered...

Without wanting to derail this thread even more, I couldn't help but
notice the irony here...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Wols Lists]

On 30/10/17 23:28, Mick wrote:
> The regulator does not hold the budget, central government departments do and 
> the regulator cannot (or will not) control abnormal profits privatised 
> utilities are making year after year.  However, the regulator will engage 
> enthusiastically in the a theatre of regular reviews of market conditions, in 
> an attempt to convince consumers and tax payers the most gratuitous abuse of 
> power is kept in check.

Quite often that's the government's fault too ...

The reason British Telecom made obscene profits for YEARS after they
privatised was because they inherited terrible infrastructure that cost
a lot of money just to keep going.

And the reason it cost so much was that every time the General Post
Office tried to put money aside to replace said infrastructure, the
Government (the sole shareholder) declared a large dividend and took it
away. The alternative was for the GPO to borrow, but every time they did
that the Treasury said "that money is part of Government Borrowing.
We're committed to reducing government borrowing so you're not allowed
to borrow".

So BT made gazillions because a brand new exchange, with a ten year
warranty, probably cost about two years' maintenance of the exchange it
replaced. And because BT were quite visibly cutting prices (not by
much!) but the new infrastructure was reducing costs so much faster,
their profits soared.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:
>
> The reason British Telecom made obscene profits for YEARS after they
> privatised was because they inherited terrible infrastructure that cost
> a lot of money just to keep going.
>

A similar kind of system is the reason that Bell Labs made so many
inventions back in the day.  The phone company worked on a cost-plus
model, so the more they spent on anything remotely telecom-related,
the more money they made.  So they just did everything they can to
increase their costs.

At least something good came out of it in that case.  Modern
businesses have gotten better at ensuring the graft goes to the
executives and owners without the risk of too much public benefit
trickling down, heaven forbid...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Mick]

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On Monday, 30 October 2017 20:50:16 GMT Dale wrote:
> I think we both agree that companies should look long term, it's not
> likely they ever will.  Their stock owners would cringe if they did, 

Not really.  Pension funds would not cringe at all, but feel relieved they 
found a company with clear focus on long term profit sustainability to invest 
in.  Short term algo-traders skimming the market will of course be displeased.

> the
> Govt types are going to get in the way if they can, regulate it to death
> if nothing else, and here we sit.

Regulation is the 'fix' governments have come up with to address market 
failures, oligopolistic cartels and lack of true competition, instead of 
admitting the obvious:  natural monopolies like most public utilities are not 
a good fit for privatisation, if the public good and tax payers' interests 
count for anything these days.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 20:50:16 GMT Dale wrote:
>> I think we both agree that companies should look long term, it's not
>> likely they ever will.  Their stock owners would cringe if they did,
>
> Not really.  Pension funds would not cringe at all, but feel relieved they
> found a company with clear focus on long term profit sustainability to invest
> in.  Short term algo-traders skimming the market will of course be displeased.

Unless a pension wants to dump a ton of money in one stock that
becomes hard to liquidate I'm not sure why they'd be any more attached
to the long-term prospects of a stock than anybody else.  If they
think a stock will go up short-term they can buy it, and then sell it
when it no longer looks like it will go up, the same as anybody else.
Lots of institutions have money they will be investing a long time,
and yet they still vote for boards that are short-sighted.

>> the
>> Govt types are going to get in the way if they can, regulate it to death
>> if nothing else, and here we sit.
>
> Regulation is the 'fix' governments have come up with to address market
> failures, oligopolistic cartels and lack of true competition, instead of
> admitting the obvious:  natural monopolies like most public utilities are not
> a good fit for privatisation, if the public good and tax payers' interests
> count for anything these days.

Well, it depends on what your privatize.  There is nothing wrong with
the government hiring other companies to provide services, just as
there isn't anything wrong with one business outsourcing work to
others.

The problem is when people think of privatization as a panacea and
just do it wholesale in a natural monopoly without any kind of
structure to ensure that companies have incentives to provide good
service/etc.

Often there are elements of a traditionally public service that aren't
natural monopolies which can be outsourced for a benefit.  Electrical
generation is often a case of that, but as I suggested you do need to
ensure you're paying to have extra capacity online.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Alternatives to knutclient

[Wols Lists]

On 30/10/17 23:32, Rich Freeman wrote:
> Often there are elements of a traditionally public service that aren't
> natural monopolies which can be outsourced for a benefit.  Electrical
> generation is often a case of that, but as I suggested you do need to
> ensure you're paying to have extra capacity online.

Exactly. The infrastructure should be a commonhold - the householders
jointly own the wires in town sort of thing. Then they can buy from any
generator, who rents the wires to deliver.

Cheers,
Wol