From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 877D81382E6 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 20:30:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 10C32E0B55; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 20:30:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C121E0B4B for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 20:30:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (unknown [185.31.165.234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: bircoph) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A7C35340BDA for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 20:30:22 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 23:30:22 +0300 From: Andrew Savchenko To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Re: status of dev-java/icedtea Message-Id: <20160704233022.1e6e21ac85d667d3d8cb0b07@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20160630051433.6745.30DB8CB6@matica.foolinux.mooo.com> <20160630085841.03cf61c4@hactar.digimed.co.uk> <20160630173044.4525.281BE424@matica.foolinux.mooo.com> <20160630223403.4c9599d7@hal9000.localdomain> <20160630231727.4874.3301D7E8@matica.foolinux.mooo.com> <95ED3EC1-2D0E-4F67-B069-42BB960B4389@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> <20160701144034.4325.226CEA2D@matica.foolinux.mooo.com> <20160702061041.5266.002AC200@matica.foolinux.mooo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.5.0 (GTK+ 2.24.30; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA512"; boundary="Signature=_Mon__4_Jul_2016_23_30_22_+0300_HkiQQnTfnXqGUaCa" X-Archives-Salt: 56f10512-447a-4b97-9db5-53f6938ec3f6 X-Archives-Hash: 65179bbad0e245b38dc79f63104b6467 --Signature=_Mon__4_Jul_2016_23_30_22_+0300_HkiQQnTfnXqGUaCa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 14:00:29 -0400 Rich Freeman wrote: > On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 1:34 PM, James wrote: > > > > No wonder the gentoo dev graveyard is so much bigger than those who are > > still active.... >=20 > You're probably conflating effect with cause. It isn't like the > treecleaners arose and drove off all the devs. (How could they? > There are only a few of them, and Gentoo policy does operate by > majority rules.) I agree with James, the tree cleaners are on the verge of abusing their power as well as the security team in PMASK-related issues. A lot of packages are being removed just because upstream is AWOL and package has no maintainer[1]. If package is not seriously broken, there are _no valid reasons_ to remove it. If homepage is not availed or was not updated for a few years, but package still works fine, it should not be removed. "Packages are still sitting in ~arch" is even less grounded reason: some people do not use arch at all (including myself). Of course such packages have higher probability of being broken in the future, but as long as they work, they must remain in the tree. Same applies for security team, some packages are being masked for removal due to either minor security issues[2] or issues affecting very limited number of application use cases[3]. I understand that people are probably irritated like "we don't want more of this crap in the tree", but they may do more harm than good with such approach. > It is more like Gentoo's popularity has waned somewhat and we don't > have as many devs as we used to Cant agree with this: we have approximately the same number of devs for several last years (actually it is increasing a bit from ~230 to ~240 with VCS write access) and is surely large than <200 about 5 years ago. And we have more contributors via git-powered proxy-maintaining now. Of course we need more people engaged and by all means new developers are welcomed. But the real problem is in package complexity rise. Not only number of packages is being increased, but they became more and more complex, sometimes insane. Large packages often reinvent wheels by creating their own build systems, tools, complex bootstrapping and even bundling of their own compilers which can't be unbundled in a sane way. Sometimes I have a feeling that software developers have a global contest on the most crazy and b0rked build system. Even Debian has similar issues these days (lack of the manpower to support over complex stuff)[4]. [1] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/30e5a50efa8d99d16ffc8dc2= e0016557 [2] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/5bc0c48c37c89dba2893389d= 6f66a240 [3] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/317b71385ff0d853a6a11bac= 66a408ed [4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-science/2016/05/msg00134.html Best regards, Andrew Savchenko --Signature=_Mon__4_Jul_2016_23_30_22_+0300_HkiQQnTfnXqGUaCa Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJXesdeAAoJEPZTWjO6HuSNy2UQAJ5ua4d8KYpO8v4gGrjzgkKS UBcRgWU6GtqYqTzAqMVv578mHcP6d1KeITxZXcvSSlqVtLj3l1jwXLsvaQE+QAVg 2y4SSjPNKAJQo0vSTv2r7vJp9R0X/n0TREKfBmX3fHqSAVkFvmjNtDWwVBa3/zzw 97bjz5Uv1705Jfd8E7mwibNoUv4fqhjFII0xO4r7ixcouvsBoun1zWJoUpe4uhqU 9/znIRc6tn2AjW2puqau2HYiCCIXrilIyA9AsYKh51TBNRQbbGb42+dw76yvf/qj eZhWK51qp6pH7rQau+m1C3YFuTYBMn+dNoWeGzJ08bbiw0i6J5HwUTW9Qde9ZX1g 5uKRdRQ7BPr6zvQADIwyn5vjpxYF7SVM9gp0PAIF4z0BT2vDjgzrmBGtetzmEFnH 4BAXZyA+AU5iHhIgHZU5PJ40NDfqmVjta805BNWaUDu+dbF2Pk8HyvkOmOzcaXR+ JG+eRJKa9BhdwDHv0OzEC/Hw//tp9/vD9FB41nVLFLcDzX4ocviWrDiIrrjPcfcX ClyAjrOfg8zZqw0gxcMq7jmahDOfHiCTxFWEhDqWWmMIqyecKihtDDLBoz+Ifx8t AblSmY87b1Fb9pbrb+aXWPgJy4hQoyBbv2bdtyd9Ll4gowQ8GE/qMNqQyE/PLEyB JqlHSbPUcNp2Z1uaW77I =98qX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Mon__4_Jul_2016_23_30_22_+0300_HkiQQnTfnXqGUaCa--