[gentoo-user] new machine : case + power

[gentoo-user] new machine : case + power

[Philip Webb]

Thanks for the  2  replies to my previous query (hijacked by overclockers).

I have bought (prices in CAD) :

  150914 CPU : AMD X8 FX8370E 8-core 4,3 GHz 16 MB 32 nm 95 W  :  259.00
         Direct replacement : 3 yr                             :   38.85
  150914 Mobo : Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P 970+SB950 DDR3 2000      :  119.99
          2x PCI-Express x16 GLAN 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 4xUSB 3.0 14xUSB 2.0
  150914 Memory : Kingston HyperX Fury 8 GB DDR3 1866 MHz CL10 :   68.99
  150914 Graphix : Asus GT610 810 MHz clock 1200 MHz memory    :   74.99
  150914 SSD : Kingston SSDNow V300 240 GB SATA RW 450 MB/s    :  109.99
  150914 HDD : Seagate Desktop SATA3 1 TB 64 MB 6 GB/s         :   57.99
         Ont recycle fee                                       :    0.75
  150914 DVD : Samsung SH-224FB 24x SATA 1,5 MB                :   21.99
         Ont recycle fee                                       :    0.75

                                                      subtotal :  753.29
                                                           tax :   97.93
                                                         total :  851.22

Prices have gone up since 2012, mainly due to a drop in CAD.
My previous machines' (2000/3/7/12) cases all contained a PSU,
but it seems I now have to buy case/PSU separately, so my next question is
whether I can safely use the case + power supply from the 2007 machine,
an in-house Canada Computers creation with a  500 W  PSU ,
which served well for  5 yr .  The front USBs mb more limited,
but might there be differences in the PSU outlet cabling ?

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] new machine : case + power

[Dale]

Philip Webb wrote:
> Thanks for the  2  replies to my previous query (hijacked by overclockers).
>
> I have bought (prices in CAD) :
>
>   150914 CPU : AMD X8 FX8370E 8-core 4,3 GHz 16 MB 32 nm 95 W  :  259.00
>          Direct replacement : 3 yr                             :   38.85
>   150914 Mobo : Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P 970+SB950 DDR3 2000      :  119.99
>           2x PCI-Express x16 GLAN 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 4xUSB 3.0 14xUSB 2.0
>   150914 Memory : Kingston HyperX Fury 8 GB DDR3 1866 MHz CL10 :   68.99
>   150914 Graphix : Asus GT610 810 MHz clock 1200 MHz memory    :   74.99
>   150914 SSD : Kingston SSDNow V300 240 GB SATA RW 450 MB/s    :  109.99
>   150914 HDD : Seagate Desktop SATA3 1 TB 64 MB 6 GB/s         :   57.99
>          Ont recycle fee                                       :    0.75
>   150914 DVD : Samsung SH-224FB 24x SATA 1,5 MB                :   21.99
>          Ont recycle fee                                       :    0.75
>
>                                                       subtotal :  753.29
>                                                            tax :   97.93
>                                                          total :  851.22
>
> Prices have gone up since 2012, mainly due to a drop in CAD.
> My previous machines' (2000/3/7/12) cases all contained a PSU,
> but it seems I now have to buy case/PSU separately, so my next question is
> whether I can safely use the case + power supply from the 2007 machine,
> an in-house Canada Computers creation with a  500 W  PSU ,
> which served well for  5 yr .  The front USBs mb more limited,
> but might there be differences in the PSU outlet cabling ?
>


I use this list as a guide on power supplies, linky below.  These are
tested and graded as to the quality of the power supply.  Nothing is
perfect but short of buying all the equipment and power supplies then
testing them yourself, this is as close as it gets. 

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php/589708-Recommended-PSU-s-True-Tested 


The first post is really all you need to look at.  As they test them,
they update that first post.  At least you may can tell what brand does
better than others. 

Hope that helps. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[james]

Philip Webb <purslow <at> ca.inter.net> writes:


>   150914 CPU : AMD X8 FX8370E 8-core 4,3 GHz 16 MB 32 nm 95 W 

 I have 3) FX8350. Outstanding performance for the cost. Love them all.



>   150914 Mobo : Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P 970+SB950 DDR3 2000      :  119.99
>           2x PCI-Express x16 GLAN 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 4xUSB 3.0 14xUSB 2.0

I have (3) of the Ggiabyte 990A-UD3P mobos:: I love mine

Very extensive wiring needs, plus you have to match the video card 
power needs to the power supply. None of my older PS would fit the bill.
Also, there has been a quiet revolution in power supply. The efficiency
of the switching circuits will save you more money in the long run
and those electronics will deliver the cleanest power to your other 
electronics. PS have ratings so look at the efficiency and oversizing a bit
from calculated loads is never a bad idea. 
I would recommend to 'not go cheap' on the PS. Becuase
4+ GHz can create some very localized heats, I put a 'water cooler'
on the chip that has hoses running to a radiaor bolted on the the main rear
fan of the Case. A wise investment at 4.3GHz. Air cooled CPUs are suspect
at those frequencies, particular if you like to compile  lots of code
or stress the all the cores at the same time.




>   150914 Memory : Kingston HyperX Fury 8 GB DDR3 1866 MHz CL10 :   68.99

I always max ram in lieu of SSD. I know you have a budget but max
ram is the single biggest item on performance and most things are 
memory constrained on processing, ymmv.

Every thing else look for bargains. Newegg is a great place to vett prices.

Make sure your case has a big and quite fan to draw air across the HD. Most
new cases do. In all you buy, check the dB (sound level) especially if
you want a quite rig to sit near you. Make sure the UPS you have is 
adequate and tested. Put a large light on the UPS. Yank the power cord
of the UPS to the wall and you should not see a flicker nor deeming
of the light of the bulb; thats a good UPS. UPS protects ALL your
electronics, but never printers as their power draw surges can easily
fry a smaller UPS.

hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Alan McKinnon]

On 17/09/2015 05:38, james wrote:
>>   150914 Mobo : Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P 970+SB950 DDR3 2000      :  119.99
>> >           2x PCI-Express x16 GLAN 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 4xUSB 3.0 14xUSB 2.0
> I have (3) of the Ggiabyte 990A-UD3P mobos:: I love mine
> 
> Very extensive wiring needs, plus you have to match the video card 
> power needs to the power supply. None of my older PS would fit the bill.
> Also, there has been a quiet revolution in power supply. The efficiency
> of the switching circuits will save you more money in the long run
> and those electronics will deliver the cleanest power to your other 
> electronics. PS have ratings so look at the efficiency and oversizing a bit
> from calculated loads is never a bad idea. 


+1

Don't be tempted to cut corners on the PSU. It's the one component in a
computer that can "wear out" so to speak, and aged PSUs are responsible
for more issues than anything else (except maybe dodgy RAM with a few
dud cells).

PSUs are not expensive and there's lots of other things one can save
cash on. I firmly believe cutting corners with PSUs is like saving money
by not replacing oil filters - you save some cash now, and cause
yourself enormous expense later

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 17/09/2015 05:38, james wrote:
>>>   150914 Mobo : Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P 970+SB950 DDR3 2000      :  119.99
>>>>           2x PCI-Express x16 GLAN 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 4xUSB 3.0 14xUSB 2.0
>> I have (3) of the Ggiabyte 990A-UD3P mobos:: I love mine
>>
>> Very extensive wiring needs, plus you have to match the video card 
>> power needs to the power supply. None of my older PS would fit the bill.
>> Also, there has been a quiet revolution in power supply. The efficiency
>> of the switching circuits will save you more money in the long run
>> and those electronics will deliver the cleanest power to your other 
>> electronics. PS have ratings so look at the efficiency and oversizing a bit
>> from calculated loads is never a bad idea. 
>
> +1
>
> Don't be tempted to cut corners on the PSU. It's the one component in a
> computer that can "wear out" so to speak, and aged PSUs are responsible
> for more issues than anything else (except maybe dodgy RAM with a few
> dud cells).
>
> PSUs are not expensive and there's lots of other things one can save
> cash on. I firmly believe cutting corners with PSUs is like saving money
> by not replacing oil filters - you save some cash now, and cause
> yourself enormous expense later
>


It's the one thing that is common to everything else.  Most good power
supplies have protection but let's say that 12 VDC rail went to 16
volts.  It would turn a perfectly working puter into a nice door stop,
pretty quick.  It would likely burn out every component in the rig that
uses the 12 volt line, which a lot of stuff does. 

Yea, skimping and getting a el cheapo power supply is a bad idea. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 17 Sep 2015 08:29:38 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> Don't be tempted to cut corners on the PSU. It's the one component in a
> computer that can "wear out" so to speak, and aged PSUs are responsible
> for more issues than anything else (except maybe dodgy RAM with a few
> dud cells).

The important difference being that dodgy RAM only damages your software
(and sanity) whereas a faulty PSU can result in damage to components that
cost orders of magnitude more than it.

> I firmly believe cutting corners with PSUs is like saving money
> by not replacing oil filters - you save some cash now, and cause
> yourself enormous expense later

I must admit to never changing the oil filters on my computer, but I
agree with your sentiments...


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A friend in need may turn out to be a nuisance.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 2:29 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> PSUs are not expensive and there's lots of other things one can save
> cash on. I firmly believe cutting corners with PSUs is like saving money
> by not replacing oil filters - you save some cash now, and cause
> yourself enormous expense later
>

++

Also, my sense is that vendors have realized they're starting to
really hit the practical limits on PC power consumption.  That means
that if you invest in a decent power supply now there is a good chance
that you'll get a lot more life out of it than in the past where they
seemed to double in capacity every other year.  Sure, maybe the next
AMD chip will pull 500W, the next GPU will pull another 750W, and the
peltier cooling for both will pull another 75W, but I think that when
people have to start running additional power lines to their office
and install an extra AC in the room or install a cooling tower they'll
draw the line.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Philip Webb]

150917 james wrote:
> Philip Webb <purslow <at> ca.inter.net> writes:
>> 150914 CPU : AMD X8 FX8370E 8-core 4,3 GHz 16 MB 32 nm 95 W 
> I have 3) FX8350. Outstanding performance for the cost. Love them all.
>> 150914 Mobo : Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P 970+SB950 DDR3 2000      :  119.99
>>        2x PCI-Express x16 GLAN 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 4xUSB 3.0 14xUSB 2.0
> I have (3) of the Gigabyte 990A-UD3P mobos : I love mine
> There has been a quiet revolution in power supply.  The efficiency
> of the switching circuits will save you more money in the long run
> & those electronics will deliver the cleanest power to other electronics.
> Make sure your case has a big and quite fan to draw air across the HD :
> most new cases do.  Check the dB, esp if you want a quiet rig near you.

Thanks for the very useful advice.  I esp note the above.

My present machine has a  4,2 GHz  CPU, which hasn't caused problems,
even when it's been running at full tilt for  2 h 20 m  compiling LO.
As I've said before, my impression is that electronics need stability
& my box sits in the same corner at the same temperature + humidity.

Everything is protected -- is it ? -- by a good power bar.
Occasionally, there is a flash/dim of my lights in the early morning,
which I assume is a changeover of equipment at a substation out there.
Otherwise, our publicly-owned electricity service is very reliable,
as it has to be in a big city with pretensions (smile) to World status.

I have bought

  150917 Case : Deepcool Terraract BF                          :   39.99
  150917 PSU : Thermaltake TR2 500 W                           :   59.99

Both items are in good supply at the store, ie people are buying them.
The PSU has a  5 yr  warranty.  The fan is intelligent, like the CPU's,
so it sb quiet most of the time, but do its job when working hard.
The case has a lot of mesh around the sides, which should help airflow.

I'm not an electrical expert, but my Estonian grandfather was an engineer
who helped the Germans with the electrics in their submarines before WWI.
Too bad re the Lusitania ... (wry smile)

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case fan

[Philip Webb]

150917 james wrote:
> Make sure your case has a big and quiet fan to draw air across the HD.

My case -- Deepcool Terraract BF -- has a fan in the wall :
none of my previous cases had one, so I'm not sure how to connect it.
It has a 3-pin plug & the Mobo -- Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P --
has  2  3-pin sockets marked 'power fan' & 'system fan'.
I've tried plugging the case fan into both, but it doesn't run.
The various manuals + I/net sites don't offer any advice.

Which is the correct socket or should both be ok ?
Does the case fan run only when the inside starts getting too hot ?

The machine has woken up -- it's like having a baby (grin) --
& BIOS shows everything is running as expected.

Thanks for the useful help previously : fan advice wb welcome.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case fan

[Dale]

Philip Webb wrote:
> 150917 james wrote:
>> Make sure your case has a big and quiet fan to draw air across the HD.
> My case -- Deepcool Terraract BF -- has a fan in the wall :
> none of my previous cases had one, so I'm not sure how to connect it.
> It has a 3-pin plug & the Mobo -- Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P --
> has  2  3-pin sockets marked 'power fan' & 'system fan'.
> I've tried plugging the case fan into both, but it doesn't run.
> The various manuals + I/net sites don't offer any advice.
>
> Which is the correct socket or should both be ok ?
> Does the case fan run only when the inside starts getting too hot ?
>
> The machine has woken up -- it's like having a baby (grin) --
> & BIOS shows everything is running as expected.
>
> Thanks for the useful help previously : fan advice wb welcome.
>


I have that mobo and I have 4 fan connectors.  For mine, I have one for
the CPU fan, front, rear and top.  My side fan just plugs in and runs. 
It's those big 200mm thingys.  Anyway, you should have 4 connectors on
there.  If needed, I can take the side off and give you a general
location.  It should be in the manual to tho. 

By the way, I also let the BIOS handle my fan speeds.  It works pretty
well.  It's quiet but when compiling, it also keeps things cool.  My CPU
never goes above 110F.  Good air flow and a large CPU cooler keeps
things cool. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : mobo fault

[Philip Webb]

For the first time ever, I've bought a defective part for a new computer.

Today, my Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P mobo fried a USB stick.
I was using a longstanding stick to transfer data from the present machine :
some files copied successfully, then further attempts were met
with an error msg "unreadable FS ... " or similar wording.
Back in the present machine the same obstacle occurred,
so something bad had been done to the stick.
I used Fdisk to delete + recreate the partition, reformatted,
then successfully copied the contents back from the HDD there
(yes, always keep multiple backups ! ) : no physical problem with the stick.

There's also a problem with the front USB-3 port, which freezes the system.

The store has a 14-day return, so I plan to try an ASUS instead :

  Item Code: MBAS003960 -- $ 105 mail-in $ -10 -- downtown 4
  ASUS M5A97 LE R2.0 Socket AM3+ AMD 970/SB950 Chipset
  Dual Channel DDR3 2133(O.C.) MHz, 2x PCI-Express x16
  GLAN, 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 2xUSB 3.0 6x USB 2.0

  Item Code: MBAS003965 -- $ 130 -- downtown 2
  ASUS M5A97 R2.0 Socdket AM3+ AMD 970/SB950 Chipset
  Dual Channel DDR3 2133(O.C.) MHz, 2x PCI-Express x16
  GLAN, 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 2xUSB 3.0 6x USB 2.0

  Item Code: MBAS004035 -- $ 165 mail-in $ -20 -- downtown 2
  ASUS M5A99X EVO R2.0 Socket AM3+ AMD 990X/SB950 Chipset
  Dual Channel DDR3 2133(O.C.) MHz, 3x PCI-Express x16
  GLAN, 6xSATA 6.0Gb/s 2xeSATA 6.0 Gb/s 2xUSB 3.0 8x USB 2.0

  Item Code: MBAS003885 -- $ 180 mail-in $ -15 -- downtown 2
  ASUS M5A99FX PRO R2.0 Socket AM3+ AMD 990FX/SB950 Chipset
  Dual Channel DDR3 2133(O.C.) MHz, 4x PCI-Express x16
  GLAN, 7xSATA 6.0Gb/s 1xeSATA 2xUSB 3.0 8x USB 2.0

Comments or suggestions very welcome.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 17.09.2015 um 05:38 schrieb james:
> Philip Webb <purslow <at> ca.inter.net> writes:
>
>
>>   150914 CPU : AMD X8 FX8370E 8-core 4,3 GHz 16 MB 32 nm 95 W 
>  I have 3) FX8350. Outstanding performance for the cost. Love them all.
>
>
>
>>   150914 Mobo : Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P 970+SB950 DDR3 2000      :  119.99
>>           2x PCI-Express x16 GLAN 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 4xUSB 3.0 14xUSB 2.0
> I have (3) of the Ggiabyte 990A-UD3P mobos:: I love mine
>
> Very extensive wiring needs, plus you have to match the video card 
> power needs to the power supply. None of my older PS would fit the bill.
> Also, there has been a quiet revolution in power supply. The efficiency
> of the switching circuits will save you more money in the long run
> and those electronics will deliver the cleanest power to your other 
> electronics. PS have ratings so look at the efficiency and oversizing a bit
> from calculated loads is never a bad idea. 
> I would recommend to 'not go cheap' on the PS. Becuase
> 4+ GHz can create some very localized heats, I put a 'water cooler'
> on the chip that has hoses running to a radiaor bolted on the the main rear
> fan of the Case. A wise investment at 4.3GHz. Air cooled CPUs are suspect
> at those frequencies, particular if you like to compile  lots of code
> or stress the all the cores at the same time.
>
>
>
>
>>   150914 Memory : Kingston HyperX Fury 8 GB DDR3 1866 MHz CL10 :   68.99
> I always max ram in lieu of SSD. I know you have a budget but max
> ram is the single biggest item on performance and most things are 
> memory constrained on processing, ymmv.
>
> Every thing else look for bargains. Newegg is a great place to vett prices.
>
> Make sure your case has a big and quite fan to draw air across the HD. Most
> new cases do. In all you buy, check the dB (sound level) especially if
> you want a quite rig to sit near you. Make sure the UPS you have is 
> adequate and tested. Put a large light on the UPS. Yank the power cord
> of the UPS to the wall and you should not see a flicker nor deeming
> of the light of the bulb; thats a good UPS. UPS protects ALL your
> electronics, but never printers as their power draw surges can easily
> fry a smaller UPS.
>
> hth,
> James
>
>
>
>
>
I have a 125w CPU and a R7 370 plus a shitload of HDDs and all those are
quite happily fed by a 450W PSU. A pretty old 450W BeQuiet PSU.

Go figure.

What does my 600VA UPS says about this?
27% load at the moment.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Alan McKinnon]

On 24/09/2015 16:00, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am 17.09.2015 um 05:38 schrieb james:
>> Philip Webb <purslow <at> ca.inter.net> writes:
>>
>>
>>>   150914 CPU : AMD X8 FX8370E 8-core 4,3 GHz 16 MB 32 nm 95 W 
>>  I have 3) FX8350. Outstanding performance for the cost. Love them all.
>>
>>
>>
>>>   150914 Mobo : Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P 970+SB950 DDR3 2000      :  119.99
>>>           2x PCI-Express x16 GLAN 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 4xUSB 3.0 14xUSB 2.0
>> I have (3) of the Ggiabyte 990A-UD3P mobos:: I love mine
>>
>> Very extensive wiring needs, plus you have to match the video card 
>> power needs to the power supply. None of my older PS would fit the bill.
>> Also, there has been a quiet revolution in power supply. The efficiency
>> of the switching circuits will save you more money in the long run
>> and those electronics will deliver the cleanest power to your other 
>> electronics. PS have ratings so look at the efficiency and oversizing a bit
>> from calculated loads is never a bad idea. 
>> I would recommend to 'not go cheap' on the PS. Becuase
>> 4+ GHz can create some very localized heats, I put a 'water cooler'
>> on the chip that has hoses running to a radiaor bolted on the the main rear
>> fan of the Case. A wise investment at 4.3GHz. Air cooled CPUs are suspect
>> at those frequencies, particular if you like to compile  lots of code
>> or stress the all the cores at the same time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>   150914 Memory : Kingston HyperX Fury 8 GB DDR3 1866 MHz CL10 :   68.99
>> I always max ram in lieu of SSD. I know you have a budget but max
>> ram is the single biggest item on performance and most things are 
>> memory constrained on processing, ymmv.
>>
>> Every thing else look for bargains. Newegg is a great place to vett prices.
>>
>> Make sure your case has a big and quite fan to draw air across the HD. Most
>> new cases do. In all you buy, check the dB (sound level) especially if
>> you want a quite rig to sit near you. Make sure the UPS you have is 
>> adequate and tested. Put a large light on the UPS. Yank the power cord
>> of the UPS to the wall and you should not see a flicker nor deeming
>> of the light of the bulb; thats a good UPS. UPS protects ALL your
>> electronics, but never printers as their power draw surges can easily
>> fry a smaller UPS.
>>
>> hth,
>> James
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I have a 125w CPU and a R7 370 plus a shitload of HDDs and all those are
> quite happily fed by a 450W PSU. A pretty old 450W BeQuiet PSU.
> 
> Go figure.
> 
> What does my 600VA UPS says about this?
> 27% load at the moment.


That's all as expected. There's also this thing we called headroom:

As I said in an earlier mail, and got an earful for my trouble, a 125W
CPU does not draw 125W all the time and your 450W psu does not deliver
450W all the time. Your PSU is delivering about 125W or so average which
is what I expect from that hardware.

But computers are not nice well behaved LED bulbs that draw constant
power that never varies. The CPU ramps up to full S1 state, hard drives
spin up and that causes power draw to surge and spike. How much does it
need? Hard to give a definite answer but easily 5 or 6 times the
average, especially spinning up drives that spun down. You can see these
spikes on lab power meters, ones with screens and graphs. That's what
the headroom is for - how much extra power can be delivered in very
brief spikes (<100ms or so) when the hardware really needs it?

If the PSU is weak in this area and can't deliver the full power, the
load will still try to draw the current, and the voltage must drop to
compensate. Simple physics. Either way, your 450W PSU might not be up to
the job when push really comes to shove for your hardware.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 24.09.2015 um 18:12 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> On 24/09/2015 16:00, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> Am 17.09.2015 um 05:38 schrieb james:
>>> Philip Webb <purslow <at> ca.inter.net> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>   150914 CPU : AMD X8 FX8370E 8-core 4,3 GHz 16 MB 32 nm 95 W 
>>>  I have 3) FX8350. Outstanding performance for the cost. Love them all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>   150914 Mobo : Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P 970+SB950 DDR3 2000      :  119.99
>>>>           2x PCI-Express x16 GLAN 6xSATA 6.0 Gb/s 4xUSB 3.0 14xUSB 2.0
>>> I have (3) of the Ggiabyte 990A-UD3P mobos:: I love mine
>>>
>>> Very extensive wiring needs, plus you have to match the video card 
>>> power needs to the power supply. None of my older PS would fit the bill.
>>> Also, there has been a quiet revolution in power supply. The efficiency
>>> of the switching circuits will save you more money in the long run
>>> and those electronics will deliver the cleanest power to your other 
>>> electronics. PS have ratings so look at the efficiency and oversizing a bit
>>> from calculated loads is never a bad idea. 
>>> I would recommend to 'not go cheap' on the PS. Becuase
>>> 4+ GHz can create some very localized heats, I put a 'water cooler'
>>> on the chip that has hoses running to a radiaor bolted on the the main rear
>>> fan of the Case. A wise investment at 4.3GHz. Air cooled CPUs are suspect
>>> at those frequencies, particular if you like to compile  lots of code
>>> or stress the all the cores at the same time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>   150914 Memory : Kingston HyperX Fury 8 GB DDR3 1866 MHz CL10 :   68.99
>>> I always max ram in lieu of SSD. I know you have a budget but max
>>> ram is the single biggest item on performance and most things are 
>>> memory constrained on processing, ymmv.
>>>
>>> Every thing else look for bargains. Newegg is a great place to vett prices.
>>>
>>> Make sure your case has a big and quite fan to draw air across the HD. Most
>>> new cases do. In all you buy, check the dB (sound level) especially if
>>> you want a quite rig to sit near you. Make sure the UPS you have is 
>>> adequate and tested. Put a large light on the UPS. Yank the power cord
>>> of the UPS to the wall and you should not see a flicker nor deeming
>>> of the light of the bulb; thats a good UPS. UPS protects ALL your
>>> electronics, but never printers as their power draw surges can easily
>>> fry a smaller UPS.
>>>
>>> hth,
>>> James
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I have a 125w CPU and a R7 370 plus a shitload of HDDs and all those are
>> quite happily fed by a 450W PSU. A pretty old 450W BeQuiet PSU.
>>
>> Go figure.
>>
>> What does my 600VA UPS says about this?
>> 27% load at the moment.
>
> That's all as expected. There's also this thing we called headroom:
>
> As I said in an earlier mail, and got an earful for my trouble, a 125W
> CPU does not draw 125W all the time and your 450W psu does not deliver
> 450W all the time. Your PSU is delivering about 125W or so average which
> is what I expect from that hardware.
>
> But computers are not nice well behaved LED bulbs that draw constant
> power that never varies. The CPU ramps up to full S1 state, hard drives
> spin up and that causes power draw to surge and spike. How much does it
> need? Hard to give a definite answer but easily 5 or 6 times the
> average, especially spinning up drives that spun down. You can see these
> spikes on lab power meters, ones with screens and graphs. That's what
> the headroom is for - how much extra power can be delivered in very
> brief spikes (<100ms or so) when the hardware really needs it?
>
> If the PSU is weak in this area and can't deliver the full power, the
> load will still try to draw the current, and the voltage must drop to
> compensate. Simple physics. Either way, your 450W PSU might not be up to
> the job when push really comes to shove for your hardware.
>
>

a) I know what happens if you have a bad PSU. That is why I am using
BeQuiet.

b) those 27% include the monitor and router.

b) I know how much my computer draws at full load. 300W. Absolut
maximum. All inclusive. Screen, fritzbox, powered usb hubs, computer
itself. 3

[gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 17/09/15 06:04, Philip Webb wrote:
> My previous machines' (2000/3/7/12) cases all contained a PSU,
> but it seems I now have to buy case/PSU separately, so my next question is
> whether I can safely use the case + power supply from the 2007 machine

This should be fine, as long as the PSU has SATA power connectors. If 
not, you will need molex to SATA adapters.

The PSU does not need to provide a PCI-e power connector, since the Asus 
GT610 does not take external power. It's powered exclusively by the bus.

However, note that PSUs tend to go bad after years of operation. An 8 
years old PSU might start losing power or voltage stability. If you see 
random machine resets or hangups, it's usually because the PSU is dying.

With that GPU, you don't need more than 400W. And the amps on the 12V 
rail are also not important, as that only comes into play with 
higher-end GPUs. Other features can still be important though, like 
protection against surges and such (think lightning strikes that can 
potentially damage your PC, or some PSU malfunction that could do the same.)

[gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[james]

Nikos Chantziaras <realnc <at> gmail.com> writes:


> However, note that PSUs tend to go bad after years of operation. An 8 
> years old PSU might start losing power or voltage stability. If you see 
> random machine resets or hangups, it's usually because the PSU is dying.

Very true. However, if you are "handy with electrical wiring", DC voltage
analysis, live, is quite simple. Just monitor the voltage outputs, under 
load with a "multi meter" and see if the voltages sags below the unload
rail (dc voltage level). Also the most common failure of PC style PS
is the fan and those can be changed for a few bucks. But electronics do age
and a good UPS will extend the life of your PS. UPS batteries, typical
a 7-10 Amp-hour are cheap to replace ever 2-4 years. Another simple way
to do this, and more cool, is the get an amp meter. Just convert the
wattage rating of the PS to an amp rating at a given voltage level. Clamp
around the power cord running to the PC and you can see the static (non
transient) voltage sag if it occurs as the amperage draw increases.
If you can find an old analog meter, with a needle on the dial, you can
see a transient energy draw by the fast movement of the needle on the dial.
Digital meters that can do this, or capture the traces (as in an
oscilloscope) are much more expensive, but makes for a fun lab to learn
about the operational characteristics of dynamic electrical energy flows.
(trying to keep this non-pedantic).




> With that GPU, you don't need more than 400W. And the amps on the 12V 
> rail are also not important, as that only comes into play with 
> higher-end GPUs. Other features can still be important though, like 
> protection against surges and such (think lightning strikes that can 
> potentially damage your PC, or some PSU malfunction that could do the same.)


True, but you are not considering transient voltage swings. If your rig
draws 350 W and you have a 400 W PS, you will get spikes and draw-downs
on the voltage during transient period of peak usage. This will kill a PS
over time, faster that if the 350W rig is running off a 500W supply.
Lots of quality capacitors in the PS minimize these effects. If the PS
is rated as extremely efficient (compared to other PS) then it has
better quality components inside the PS (they react faster to transients).

caveat emptor! Size does matter for a long and happy life::
;-)	


James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Alan McKinnon]

On 17/09/2015 15:26, james wrote:
>> With that GPU, you don't need more than 400W. And the amps on the 12V 
>> > rail are also not important, as that only comes into play with 
>> > higher-end GPUs. Other features can still be important though, like 
>> > protection against surges and such (think lightning strikes that can 
>> > potentially damage your PC, or some PSU malfunction that could do the same.)
> 
> True, but you are not considering transient voltage swings. If your rig
> draws 350 W and you have a 400 W PS, you will get spikes and draw-downs
> on the voltage during transient period of peak usage. This will kill a PS
> over time, faster that if the 350W rig is running off a 500W supply.
> Lots of quality capacitors in the PS minimize these effects. If the PS
> is rated as extremely efficient (compared to other PS) then it has
> better quality components inside the PS (they react faster to transients).


I have yet to see a computer that draws 350W sustained :-)
Spikes of brief duration yes, sustained no.[1]

But now I'm being pedantic right after you tried so hard not to be.


[1] Anyone who wants to know just how much power 350W really is,
consider that your electric kettle is about 1000W and can boil 1.7l of
cold water in 2 minutes. I know [CG]PUs get hot, but they don't get
*that* hot.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[james]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:


> I have yet to see a computer that draws 350W sustained 
> Spikes of brief duration yes, sustained no.[1]

Maleformed arguement here, pal. It was a 'generic example. Obviously
if his rig draws 200 W on a cheap/old 400W supply, it will be fine
until the components age.

> But now I'm being pedantic right after you tried so hard not to be.
Fine, let's dance, as one of my areas of expertise is fluid flow besides
EE.


> [1] Anyone who wants to know just how much power 350W really is,
> consider that your electric kettle is about 1000W and can boil 1.7l of
> cold water in 2 minutes. I know [CG]PUs get hot, but they don't get
> *that* hot.


Huh? You really should stay in  the E&M domain, for accuracy and not
confusing the readers.


Hook up some sophiticated electrical monitoring equipment that also
logs data points, (wave-forms) at say 100+ points per second resolution
and leave in on a computer for months. If it is heavily used, or your
utility is crappy (as they all are do to costs) you will see transients,
some of which pass right through the UPS (slow to react)  and the
PS (particularly if the filter stages are poorly design (which most are
as the designers are often not allows to use expensive components)
and they hit the components on the PC side. Over time there is a 
cumulative effect. Also, components "burn in" and then mostly offer
reliable performance until they reach the end-of-life, statistically.
AT the point some last longer, other have failed and still others accentuate
the effects of transients. Most system tolerate this for quite a while,
granted. But he is now talking about purchase of some expensive
components; for example a CPU that is running at a base speed of 4.3GHz.
That load is far more demanding than the same wattage load with a 2 GHz
CPU. Higher frequency components have much faster transients (skinnier
on a wave-trace). So they just pass right through crappy (low cost)
UPS and PS. Furthermore, they by nature of their clock speeds induce
transients behind the PS. Sometimes transients cancel and sometimes
they are additive. Now all of those circuits are becoming "distributed
parameters" and cannot be accurately characterized by lump sump analysis
methods. (such as I have previously describe using cheap technician tools
like multi meters and amp meters.


Ferro resonant UPS fix most of the this, at least from the utility side, but
they are hard to find in smaller USPS. A good old fashion 1-to-1 iron core
transformer in  the mix does the same thing, but the power loss is 3-15%
depending on many factors.

Sure there are micro components on the mobo to do some of the
same thing, but in cheaper mobo they do not do the job well.  Transients
penetrate (transgress) from the circuits where they are suppose to
be "contained" into the other circuits close to those hi freq sources
(4.3 GHz is Hi freq for a digital designer) and therein cause lots
of problems. You just can't see it. Now what is the freq of the DDR3-5
ram on the GPU?  The freq of the System ram?  Get the picture? I've design
quite a bit of gear, at various frequencies:: I should be 'in the market
for something really cool, say around 2K for nerds, just like you,
that like to show off at parties. Specs are done, but it will be approaching
3000 W, have 8 channels and should radically enhance your 'dance moves'!

Me, I would *never* put an old crappy standard 400 watt power supply
on a new 4.3 GHz system. ymmv

PPS, I really enjoy (too much) the pedantic beat down, but I'm done
on this one, so rave_on, ?


James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Alan McKinnon]

On 17/09/2015 16:09, james wrote:
> Huh? You really should stay in  the E&M domain, for accuracy and not
> confusing the readers.

I'm not familiar with the term "E&M"

For the rest, we seem to have diverged the plot somewhere.
We agree.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[james]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:


> On 17/09/2015 16:09, james wrote:
> > Huh? You really should stay in  the E&M domain, for accuracy and not
> > confusing the readers. 

> I'm not familiar with the term "E&M"

Aren't you an EE, amongst other talents?  
Electricity and Magnetism (E&M) 
You know, what physicists call Fields and Waves....
Surely you've met my friend Schroedinger?
Electric fields; just for fun [1]


> For the rest, we seem to have diverged the plot somewhere.
> We agree.

Hey, I posted once about PS, and everybody had to pile_on (ok).
The I posted again on a different sub_thread, try to avoid
conflict. I know power, small signals, DSPs and quite a bit of
Rf.......... Granted, my people skills, despite arduous effort,
are weak, at best. That why I sit in a lab alone, and mostly
contract, when something interests me...

Cheers!
;-)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger_field

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Alan McKinnon]

On 17/09/2015 18:56, james wrote:
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>> On 17/09/2015 16:09, james wrote:
>>> Huh? You really should stay in  the E&M domain, for accuracy and not
>>> confusing the readers. 
> 
>> I'm not familiar with the term "E&M"
> 
> Aren't you an EE, amongst other talents? 

I started an engineering degree, but got waylaid in 2nd year mostly due
to failing chemistry in the 1st year :-)

What I am, qualification wise, is a Electronic (Radio) Technician. The
old way, soldering iron in hand doing component level repairs and none
of this modern nonsense of replacing entire boards at 60% the price of
the unit. I've fixed more PSUs of every type under the sun than I care
to remember, and it always annoyed the blazes out of me that I was the
only tech who understood what I was working on <sigh>.

Only one other person ever truly grokked me about ESR wrt electrolytics
and why dud caps almost always read correctly on capacitance meters.

But that was a very long time ago, I left that field 15 years ago. Now
I'm a sysadmin, some call me a BOFH :-)

> Electricity and Magnetism (E&M) 
> You know, what physicists call Fields and Waves....
> Surely you've met my friend Schroedinger?
> Electric fields; just for fun [1]

Yes, I recall Schroedinger, he had a very nice cat. Her spirit lives on
in the daft creature that meows round my kitchen. It must be the poison
gas from the vial, that stuff scrambles brains


> 
> 
>> For the rest, we seem to have diverged the plot somewhere.
>> We agree.
> 
> Hey, I posted once about PS, and everybody had to pile_on (ok).
> The I posted again on a different sub_thread, try to avoid
> conflict. I know power, small signals, DSPs and quite a bit of
> Rf.......... Granted, my people skills, despite arduous effort,
> are weak, at best. That why I sit in a lab alone, and mostly
> contract, when something interests me...

You and I have similar problems. The computers and circuitry do what we
tell them do and the machines are predictable. People are ... not so
much. I'm now 50 and it's only in the last 5 years I've really started
to get a handle on it ;-)
> 
> Cheers!
> ;-)

no worries, we're all good.


> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger_field
> 


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: new machine : case + power

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 03:36:18PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> I have yet to see a computer that draws 350W sustained :-)
> Spikes of brief duration yes, sustained no.[1]

Normal desktops and web servers, sure. We have some GPU boxes at work
that have 8 GPUs apiece[1] in addition to 12-20 cores. They pull just a
bit more than 350W ;).

Alec

[1] http://arc-ts.umich.edu/flux/flux-configuration/#gpus