[gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[behrouz khosravi]

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Hello everyone.
I am eagerly waiting for seeing the traditional linux ecosystem on phones
and tablet.
I hate Android and I think it is not what we deserve to have on our
hardware.
So is anyone using ubuntu on phones? (I am not a fan of ubuntu but I thinks
at this moment it is closest thing to what I like!)

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Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 7:54 AM, behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am eagerly waiting for seeing the traditional linux ecosystem on phones
> and tablet.
> I hate Android and I think it is not what we deserve to have on our
> hardware.

I believe there was an effort to get Gentoo Prefix running on Android
as part of GSoC.  I've yet to try it myself but you might find that
useful.  I doubt it runs x11, but your typical x11 application isn't
really going to work well on a smartphone anyway unless you get a
bluetooth mouse/keyboard for it, and a magnifying glass.

If anything I could see linux applications moving more in the
direction of Android, or at least KDE/Plasma.  I don't care for
getting rid of mouse-oriented UIs on desktops unless they're netbooks
(ie Unity), but the idea of sandboxed applications is a good one, and
aligns with the container direction the server world is moving in
(I've only been happy with moving services to containers on my Gentoo
box).  If your browser can't do anything but set bookmarks and write
to the downloads folder and that is enforced by the kernel, then your
attack surface is greatly reduced.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[behrouz khosravi]

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>
> I believe there was an effort to get Gentoo Prefix running on Android
> as part of GSoC.  I've yet to try it myself but you might find that
> useful.  I doubt it runs x11, but your typical x11 application isn't
> really going to work well on a smartphone anyway unless you get a
> bluetooth mouse/keyboard for it, and a magnifying glass.
>

I love to get ride of android altogether!
I would love to see a platform open enough that I am able to install my
bootloader on it easily and boot what I prefer using a usb flash memory.
This is what I consider as the linux or more appropriately free software
ecosystem.
It is obvious that we are far from this but I think that we deserve it
anyways.
I dont know whay we are not there yet, touch screen is just another input
device, baseband modulator and demodulators are just another device
attached to the CPU.

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Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Bill Kenworthy]

On 29/06/15 21:03, behrouz khosravi wrote:
>     I believe there was an effort to get Gentoo Prefix running on Android
>     as part of GSoC.  I've yet to try it myself but you might find that
>     useful.  I doubt it runs x11, but your typical x11 application isn't
>     really going to work well on a smartphone anyway unless you get a
>     bluetooth mouse/keyboard for it, and a magnifying glass.
> 
> 
> I love to get ride of android altogether!
> I would love to see a platform open enough that I am able to install my
> bootloader on it easily and boot what I prefer using a usb flash memory.
> This is what I consider as the linux or more appropriately free software
> ecosystem.
> It is obvious that we are far from this but I think that we deserve it
> anyways. 
> I dont know whay we are not there yet, touch screen is just another
> input device, baseband modulator and demodulators are just another
> device attached to the CPU.
>  

There is an android app that allows you to run a gentoo image.  I didn't
try to go past the shell into a GUI yet ... should be possible.  The
problem I had was on trying to update a package for security reasons I
hit some critical item that was missing out of the android kernel config
so I'll have to build a custom one :(  Will get back it some day, but
amazing none the less.

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 9:03 AM, behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I love to get ride of android altogether!
> I would love to see a platform open enough that I am able to install my
> bootloader on it easily and boot what I prefer using a usb flash memory.
> This is what I consider as the linux or more appropriately free software
> ecosystem.

It sounds like your problem isn't with Android (which is mostly FOSS -
or at least the parts you're dealing with here are), but with the
bootloader on your phone (which is proprietary).  A vendor can just as
easily lock down a PC so that it will only run a version of Ubuntu 14
that they issue, without a lot of hacking away at it (and that is only
possible because Ubuntu isn't really designed to be secure against
such things - if they went to something with a signed /usr and noexec
everything else and used kernel signature verification then you're
fully locked in).

> I dont know whay we are not there yet, touch screen is just another input
> device, baseband modulator and demodulators are just another device attached
> to the CPU.
>

FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches
their itch which tends to be on the desktop.  While touch screen is
"just another input device" the fact is that you need to design your
entire application UI around it.  Likewise there are a lot of other
considerations when going mobile, like syncronization of data.  A lot
of FOSS software isn't really designed around a paradigm of working
with the same data with multiple devices.

There is no cloud equivalent to LibreOffice yet either.

Another challenge is that our most popular licenses (GPL) are designed
around desktop applications and not the cloud.  That means that I can
take LibreOffice, make a million changes, give it a web UI, launch a
Google Docs competitor, and not release the source code to anybody,
since I'm not redistributing the binary.  So, when companies do
leverage FOSS in the cloud we don't get the benefits.  If everybody
exclusively used AGPLv3 for their work, then we'd probably see a lot
more FOSS investment in cloud-based software.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[behrouz khosravi]

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>
> It sounds like your problem isn't with Android (which is mostly FOSS -
> or at least the parts you're dealing with here are), but with the
> bootloader on your phone (which is proprietary).
>

No, actually my problem is that why an operating system
can have decision on what types of apps can I have on my computer.
if it is foss enough why I am not able to remove everything from my system
easily.
I believe when we have free operating system, when can aim for free
hardware.
I just hope ubuntu would be a help to open the mobile market like the way
it helped in desktop.

FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches
> their itch which tends to be on the desktop.  While touch screen is
> "just another input device" the fact is that you need to design your
> entire application UI around it. ...


why do you thinks some foss user interfaces can not be created for this
situation?

I just hope someday mobile market whould be open.

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Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Todd Goodman]

* behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi@gmail.com> [150629 11:45]:
> >
> > It sounds like your problem isn't with Android (which is mostly FOSS -
> > or at least the parts you're dealing with here are), but with the
> > bootloader on your phone (which is proprietary).
> >
> 
> No, actually my problem is that why an operating system
> can have decision on what types of apps can I have on my computer.
> if it is foss enough why I am not able to remove everything from my system
> easily.
> I believe when we have free operating system, when can aim for free
> hardware.
> I just hope ubuntu would be a help to open the mobile market like the way
> it helped in desktop.

I assume you mean that you can't remove system and OEM apps?

It's not really the OS that's keeping you from controlling everything,
it's the choices your OEM is making.

Make sure you have open hardware and then install your own firmware.  Look
at Cryogenmod (http://www.cyanogenmod.org/) if you don't want to roll it
all yourself or for examples.

Todd

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:44 AM, behrouz khosravi
<bz.khosravi@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It sounds like your problem isn't with Android (which is mostly FOSS -
>> or at least the parts you're dealing with here are), but with the
>> bootloader on your phone (which is proprietary).
>
> No, actually my problem is that why an operating system
> can have decision on what types of apps can I have on my computer.
> if it is foss enough why I am not able to remove everything from my system
> easily.

If you build/install Android on a device, then it only contains what
you put there, and you can just as easily remove it.  If you let
somebody else build/install android on a device and not give you root
access, then it is painful.

If you build/install Gentoo on a device, then it only contains what
you put there, and you can just as easily remove it.  If you let me
build/install Gentoo on your device and not give you root access, then
it is painful.

If you let me reflash the firmware on your Gentoo system so that it
uses my UEFI keys and firmware update keys and doesn't let you change
them, and I set it up with a bootloader that checks your
kernel+initramfs signatures and decrypts the rest of your hard drive
using a TPM-supplied key and a verified boot path, and an initramfs
that checks the signature on your /usr and mounts everything else
noexec, then you're going to have some serious headaches.  And yes,
you actually can do all of this with Gentoo, though almost nobody
bothers (ChromeOS is based on Gentoo and does use a variation on this,
with licensed devices having a switch to disable the signature
checks).  I'd have to check but I think Linux actually supports (maybe
via a patch) signature verification on execing images, in which case I
can let you mount whatever you want +x and you still won't be able to
run your own stuff.

Your problem isn't with Android the OS.  Your problem is with the
experience your phone vendor is giving you.  All that lockdown stuff
that you seem to hate is 100% supported by the Linux kernel - you're
just not turning it on with a typical distro install.

>
>> FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches
>> their itch which tends to be on the desktop.  While touch screen is
>> "just another input device" the fact is that you need to design your
>> entire application UI around it. ...
>
> why do you thinks some foss user interfaces can not be created for this
> situation?
>

I'm not saying that they cannot be created.  I'm simply pointing out
that nobody is bothering to do so.  Anybody can write a web-based MUA
comparable to Gmail or a web-based replacement to Google Docs, and
release it as FOSS.  However, it takes a lot of work and for various
reasons most seem content to use an X11-based version of each.  In the
case of LibreOffice I think the origins are actually in software that
was intended to be sold commercially, but failed (which is probably
why they've been trying to cleanup the code for years).

For a mobile OS your life is made even more difficult by Android,
since many who would tend to write a competing OS probably consider it
good enough.

I'm really not interested in yet another android so much as more open
hardware to run android on.  Vendors are getting better about allowing
unlocking, but driver support/etc is still a mess.

Oh, and I don't like the general move of APIs into Google Play
Services.  That really needs to be split into two applications.  One
would provide APIs for stuff actually related to Google (like Google
authentication, buying stuff on the Play Store, Google Wallet, and so
on), and that could be closed.  The other would provide all the stuff
like WebView APIs where rapid updates are desirable, and it should be
FOSS.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[behrouz khosravi]

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>
>
> If you build/install Android on a device, then it only contains what
> you put there, and you can just as easily remove it.  If you let
> somebody else build/install android on a device and not give you root
> access, then it is painful.
>
> If you build/install Gentoo on a device, then it only contains what
> you put there, and you can just as easily remove it.  If you let me
> build/install Gentoo on your device and not give you root access, then
> it is painful.
>
> If you let me reflash the firmware on your Gentoo system so that it
> uses my UEFI keys and firmware update keys and doesn't let you change
> them, and I set it up with a bootloader that checks your
> kernel+initramfs signatures and decrypts the rest of your hard drive
> using a TPM-supplied key and a verified boot path, and an initramfs
> that checks the signature on your /usr and mounts everything else
> noexec, then you're going to have some serious headaches.  And yes,
> you actually can do all of this with Gentoo, though almost nobody
> bothers (ChromeOS is based on Gentoo and does use a variation on this,
> with licensed devices having a switch to disable the signature
> checks).  I'd have to check but I think Linux actually supports (maybe
> via a patch) signature verification on execing images, in which case I
> can let you mount whatever you want +x and you still won't be able to
> run your own stuff.
>
> Your problem isn't with Android the OS.  Your problem is with the
> experience your phone vendor is giving you.  All that lockdown stuff
> that you seem to hate is 100% supported by the Linux kernel - you're
> just not turning it on with a typical distro install.
>
> >
> >> FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches
> >> their itch which tends to be on the desktop.  While touch screen is
> >> "just another input device" the fact is that you need to design your
> >> entire application UI around it. ...
> >
> > why do you thinks some foss user interfaces can not be created for this
> > situation?
> >
>
> I'm not saying that they cannot be created.  I'm simply pointing out
> that nobody is bothering to do so.  Anybody can write a web-based MUA
> comparable to Gmail or a web-based replacement to Google Docs, and
> release it as FOSS.  However, it takes a lot of work and for various
> reasons most seem content to use an X11-based version of each.  In the
> case of LibreOffice I think the origins are actually in software that
> was intended to be sold commercially, but failed (which is probably
> why they've been trying to cleanup the code for years).
>
> For a mobile OS your life is made even more difficult by Android,
> since many who would tend to write a competing OS probably consider it
> good enough.
>
> I'm really not interested in yet another android so much as more open
> hardware to run android on.  Vendors are getting better about allowing
> unlocking, but driver support/etc is still a mess.
>
> Oh, and I don't like the general move of APIs into Google Play
> Services.  That really needs to be split into two applications.  One
> would provide APIs for stuff actually related to Google (like Google
> authentication, buying stuff on the Play Store, Google Wallet, and so
> on), and that could be closed.  The other would provide all the stuff
> like WebView APIs where rapid updates are desirable, and it should be
> FOSS.
>
>

I know what you mean. This is all more or less true, but what can we do in
this situation?
I will try to move toward whatever promotes openness, and please do not
tell me that ubuntu
is not more open that android. In android I cant even have pure native
apps! some parts of an application
should always be in java.

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Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Bruce Schultz]

On 30 June 2015 1:44:24 AM AEST, behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It sounds like your problem isn't with Android (which is mostly FOSS
>-
>> or at least the parts you're dealing with here are), but with the
>> bootloader on your phone (which is proprietary).
>>
>
>No, actually my problem is that why an operating system
>can have decision on what types of apps can I have on my computer.
>if it is foss enough why I am not able to remove everything from my
>system
>easily.
>I believe when we have free operating system, when can aim for free
>hardware.
>I just hope ubuntu would be a help to open the mobile market like the
>way
>it helped in desktop.

I think that part of the problem is the diversity of hardware in the ARM ecosystem and that much of the drivers needed are not maintained in future kernels, making it difficult to support at a community level.

>
>FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it scratches
>> their itch which tends to be on the desktop.  While touch screen is
>> "just another input device" the fact is that you need to design your
>> entire application UI around it. ...
>
>
>why do you thinks some foss user interfaces can not be created for this
>situation?
>
>I just hope someday mobile market whould be open.

Have you seen the Neo900? Its based on the old Nokia N900 and the maemo software. The OS is a debian variant, I believe.

http://neo900.org/

-- 
:b

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[john]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 00:44:23 +0430
behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> >
> > If you build/install Android on a device, then it only contains what
> > you put there, and you can just as easily remove it.  If you let
> > somebody else build/install android on a device and not give you
> > root access, then it is painful.
> >
> > If you build/install Gentoo on a device, then it only contains what
> > you put there, and you can just as easily remove it.  If you let me
> > build/install Gentoo on your device and not give you root access,
> > then it is painful.
> >
> > If you let me reflash the firmware on your Gentoo system so that it
> > uses my UEFI keys and firmware update keys and doesn't let you
> > change them, and I set it up with a bootloader that checks your
> > kernel+initramfs signatures and decrypts the rest of your hard drive
> > using a TPM-supplied key and a verified boot path, and an initramfs
> > that checks the signature on your /usr and mounts everything else
> > noexec, then you're going to have some serious headaches.  And yes,
> > you actually can do all of this with Gentoo, though almost nobody
> > bothers (ChromeOS is based on Gentoo and does use a variation on
> > this, with licensed devices having a switch to disable the signature
> > checks).  I'd have to check but I think Linux actually supports
> > (maybe via a patch) signature verification on execing images, in
> > which case I can let you mount whatever you want +x and you still
> > won't be able to run your own stuff.
> >
> > Your problem isn't with Android the OS.  Your problem is with the
> > experience your phone vendor is giving you.  All that lockdown stuff
> > that you seem to hate is 100% supported by the Linux kernel - you're
> > just not turning it on with a typical distro install.
> >
> > >
> > >> FOSS developers seem to mostly be stuck in X11-land - it
> > >> scratches their itch which tends to be on the desktop.  While
> > >> touch screen is "just another input device" the fact is that you
> > >> need to design your entire application UI around it. ...
> > >
> > > why do you thinks some foss user interfaces can not be created
> > > for this situation?
> > >
> >
> > I'm not saying that they cannot be created.  I'm simply pointing out
> > that nobody is bothering to do so.  Anybody can write a web-based
> > MUA comparable to Gmail or a web-based replacement to Google Docs,
> > and release it as FOSS.  However, it takes a lot of work and for
> > various reasons most seem content to use an X11-based version of
> > each.  In the case of LibreOffice I think the origins are actually
> > in software that was intended to be sold commercially, but failed
> > (which is probably why they've been trying to cleanup the code for
> > years).
> >
> > For a mobile OS your life is made even more difficult by Android,
> > since many who would tend to write a competing OS probably consider
> > it good enough.
> >
> > I'm really not interested in yet another android so much as more
> > open hardware to run android on.  Vendors are getting better about
> > allowing unlocking, but driver support/etc is still a mess.
> >
> > Oh, and I don't like the general move of APIs into Google Play
> > Services.  That really needs to be split into two applications.  One
> > would provide APIs for stuff actually related to Google (like Google
> > authentication, buying stuff on the Play Store, Google Wallet, and
> > so on), and that could be closed.  The other would provide all the
> > stuff like WebView APIs where rapid updates are desirable, and it
> > should be FOSS.
> >
> >
> 
> I know what you mean. This is all more or less true, but what can we
> do in this situation?
> I will try to move toward whatever promotes openness, and please do
> not tell me that ubuntu
> is not more open that android. In android I cant even have pure native
> apps! some parts of an application
> should always be in java.

Jolla do a phone which is Linux based. No idea if this would suit your
needs but may be worth a look. It's GUI is good and it uses Wayland.
Not sure how open it is!

John D Maunder

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Walter Dnes]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 05:33:08PM +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote

> I love to get ride of android altogether!
> I would love to see a platform open enough that I am able to install my
> bootloader on it easily and boot what I prefer using a usb flash memory.
> This is what I consider as the linux or more appropriately free software
> ecosystem.
> It is obvious that we are far from this but I think that we deserve it
> anyways.
> I dont know whay we are not there yet, touch screen is just another input
> device, baseband modulator and demodulators are just another device
> attached to the CPU.

  Linux is a desktop OS.  I hope it remains that way.  My main worry is
that some devs are pulling a Microsoft and bastardizing the desktop UI
to make it "touch compatable".  Firefox has changed to the
Atrocious^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Austraulis GUI.  In plain English, it sucks.
I've switched to Seamonkey to keep the old interface.

  If you want a smartphone/tablet without Android, I recommend rooting
the device, and having CyanogenMod installed.  It's Android without the
Google-garbage.  A selection of FOSS apps is available at
https://f-droid.org/  Because CyanogenMod is based on Android, it can
run native Android apps from Google Play.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Dale]

Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 05:33:08PM +0430, behrouz khosravi wrote
>
>> I love to get ride of android altogether!
>> I would love to see a platform open enough that I am able to install my
>> bootloader on it easily and boot what I prefer using a usb flash memory.
>> This is what I consider as the linux or more appropriately free software
>> ecosystem.
>> It is obvious that we are far from this but I think that we deserve it
>> anyways.
>> I dont know whay we are not there yet, touch screen is just another input
>> device, baseband modulator and demodulators are just another device
>> attached to the CPU.
>   Linux is a desktop OS.  I hope it remains that way.  My main worry is
> that some devs are pulling a Microsoft and bastardizing the desktop UI
> to make it "touch compatable".  Firefox has changed to the
> Atrocious^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Austraulis GUI.  In plain English, it sucks.
> I've switched to Seamonkey to keep the old interface.
>
>   If you want a smartphone/tablet without Android, I recommend rooting
> the device, and having CyanogenMod installed.  It's Android without the
> Google-garbage.  A selection of FOSS apps is available at
> https://f-droid.org/  Because CyanogenMod is based on Android, it can
> run native Android apps from Google Play.
>


What version of Firefox are you using?  I've seen some changes made to
Firefox but nothing that drastic.  I'm just curious if maybe I'm still
running a older not affected version. 

My reason for asking.  I'm volunteer on staff at a social site.  I have
several accounts there.  Firefox, especially giving the addons it has,
is the best option for me to use to have multiple profiles open at one
time.  Plus, I don't need the email feature for that either.  If
something ugly and nasty is coming, I need to start figuring out what I
can do to work around this or something else to use. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[R0b0t1]

I don't have time to catch up on the whole thread yet, but
https://neo900.org/ should be interesting. The older n900 phone is
quite open as well. Both [will] run an operating system called Maemo.

The neo900 solves some of the issues in current phones like the modem
sharing memory space with the main CPU. I am highly interested in one
myself, but don't think I'll be able to get an order in... hopefully
another run happens :) Beware that the device OS may not be shipped in
a completely working state. Some assembly required.

As for how to make the device usable: I had been trying for some time
to get Android running under KVM. Currently I have an ARM board which
has a similar chip to the one my phone has. Sadly I can't figure out
some bootloader and driver shenanigans so it doesn't seem like that
will ever work. The neo900's processor *might* have what is needed to
do that efficiently - ARM TrustZone - and if it does I was going to
try it if/when I get one, as a replacement for Maemo (which is great
and all but doesn't have such a large userbase).

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Walter Dnes]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:28:18PM -0500, Dale wrote

> What version of Firefox are you using?  I've seen some changes made
> to Firefox but nothing that drastic.  I'm just curious if maybe I'm
> still running a older not affected version.
> 
> My reason for asking.  I'm volunteer on staff at a social site.
> I have several accounts there.  Firefox, especially giving the
> addons it has, is the best option for me to use to have multiple
> profiles open at one time.  Plus, I don't need the email feature
> for that either.  If something ugly and nasty is coming, I need to
> start figuring out what I can do to work around this or something
> else to use.

  I don't know your definition of ugly; everybody has their own idea.
Australis came in approx Firefox 29.  After struggling with the
lobotomized interface for a while, I executed 2 commands...

emerge --unmerge firefox
emerge seamonkey

  The Australis top menu bar is thicker, so that it's easier to tap on a
tablet... so what.  They've removed text from the "File Edit View etc..."
menu.  Instead, they've inserted a bunch of heiroglyphics/icons.  A lot
of customizability has been removed.  Put it this way... if I wanted to
use Chrome(ium), I'd use Chrome(ium) in the first place.

  There are now some Firefox addons which try to restore the classic
look.  The fact that there's demand for them is a sad commentary on the
"new-and-improved" UI.

  Seamonkey has the classic look and has an Gentoo ebuild.  The Palemoon
fork is now available for linux too.  I don't see an ebuild in portage.
You either have to download the generic x86_64 version, or pull down the
tarball from Sourceforge, and build locally if you want optimization
and full feature control.

<fart="old">
Going way back into the days of DOS, I remember when Wordstar 3.3 used
to be the most popular word processor.  Then they brought out the
"new-and-improved" Wordstar 2000 version with drop-down menus instead of
{CTRL} key combos.  It fell off the public radar soon afterwards.  This
is what the Australis fiasco reminds me of.
</fart>

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:42 PM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
>
>   Linux is a desktop OS.  I hope it remains that way.

Uh, Linux is a kernel, and even GNU is really a collection of
shell-oriented tools, which can be run from Android just fine.

So Android IS Linux, at least as much as Gentoo is, or your DVR, or
your car radio, etc.  I think we have to get over the whole "Linux was
figured out in 1996 and anything different from then is bad" thing.

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-user] Re: any one using ubuntu phones?

[»Q«]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 06:36:10 -0400
"Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:28:18PM -0500, Dale wrote

> > If something ugly and nasty is coming, I need to start figuring out
> > what I can do to work around this or something else to use.
> 
>   I don't know your definition of ugly; everybody has their own idea.
> Australis came in approx Firefox 29.  

29 is right.  There aren't any plans for more major changes to the UI;
I guess it will be years before there's another overhaul.

> They've removed text from the "File Edit View etc..."
> menu.  Instead, they've inserted a bunch of heiroglyphics/icons.

The old-school, drop-down, text-only menu bar can be unhidden via a
checkbox in the 'customize' dialog.  It's been hidden by default since
well before Australis.

[gentoo-user] Re: any one using ubuntu phones?

[James]

Rich Freeman <rich0 <at> gentoo.org> writes:


> >   Linux is a desktop OS.  I hope it remains that way.

Wow. I think of linux first as a bloated (but good) minimal OS.
It's only when yhou add stuff that you get a server or a desktop.
Folks have forgotten about 'kernel tuning'. I have deglected the linux
kernel quite a bit of late, mostly do to the rabid frequency and 
non-sense (useless) chances being advanced. I have decided to only
update to 'long term support' kernels. So ideas on how to set up
masks and portage ? I guess just mask off all kernel updates and 
manually unmask those long term kernel updates? Other ideas?



> Uh, Linux is a kernel, and even GNU is really a collection of
> shell-oriented tools, which can be run from Android just fine.
 
> So Android IS Linux, at least as much as Gentoo is, or your DVR, or
> your car radio, etc.  I think we have to get over the whole "Linux was
> figured out in 1996 and anything different from then is bad" thing.


I think I just heard a news report that Google lost a long term
legal/financial battle with Oracle over java. It seems now that google
(android and any thing that uses java) is going to have to pay
Oracle some 'pal_a_monies' ?  Or did I here that wrong?

If so, I'm sure google and lots of folks are scrambling to replace
java.....?

On cell phones SeLinux is probably the best thing going for a cool phone.
At least it will be reasonably secure by the user's ability to admin the
phone? [1] 

James

[1] http://blogs.csc.com/2015/04/06/google-slashes-android-malware-in-half/

Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Jc García]

2015-06-29 14:14 GMT-06:00 behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi@gmail.com>:
>
> I know what you mean. This is all more or less true, but what can we do in
> this situation?
> I will try to move toward whatever promotes openness, and please do not tell
> me that ubuntu
> is not more open that android. In android I cant even have pure native apps!
> some parts of an application
> should always be in java.

You can run native programs, you might not be able to run X programs
since android already has surfaceflinger handling the display, and I
haven tried it but qt can be used to build apps using C++, also with
the comming replacement of dalvik(jit) by art(aot), the apps will run
as native.

Google / Oracle / Java / etc (was: [gentoo-user] Re: any one using ubuntu phones?)

[gottlieb]

On Tue, Jun 30 2015, James wrote:

> I think I just heard a news report that Google lost a long term
> legal/financial battle with Oracle over java. It seems now that google
> (android and any thing that uses java) is going to have to pay
> Oracle some 'pal_a_monies' ?  Or did I here that wrong?
>
> If so, I'm sure google and lots of folks are scrambling to replace
> java.....?

Yes the supreme court refused to hear google's appeal to the Federal
Circuit's decision (this despite my being a signatory to an amicus brief
asking them to hear the appeal :-) ).

I believe "The lawsuit will now return to the trial court to decide
Google’s fair use defense to Oracle’s API copyright claim."

A sad day,
allan

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: any one using ubuntu phones?

[Jc García]

2015-06-30 8:28 GMT-06:00 »Q« <boxcars@gmx.net>:
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 06:36:10 -0400
> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
>> They've removed text from the "File Edit View etc..."
>> menu.  Instead, they've inserted a bunch of heiroglyphics/icons.
>
> The old-school, drop-down, text-only menu bar can be unhidden via a
> checkbox in the 'customize' dialog.  It's been hidden by default since
> well before Australis.
Just presing the Alt key also shows the dropdown menus, and all those
icons dont need to be there, contrary to a claim made here I found
this the most customizable GUI firefox has had, on the top I only have
the adress bar, the bookmarks icon,  the downloads icon and the menu
button, on the bottom my vimperator bar, tiletabs icon, adblock icon,
and if I want to I can:
:set gui=none (this is vimperator)
And now I only have the frame that shows the webpage I'm reading.

Re: Google / Oracle / Java / etc (was: [gentoo-user] Re: any one using ubuntu phones?)

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:37 AM,  <gottlieb@nyu.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 30 2015, James wrote:
>
>> I think I just heard a news report that Google lost a long term
>> legal/financial battle with Oracle over java. It seems now that google
>> (android and any thing that uses java) is going to have to pay
>> Oracle some 'pal_a_monies' ?  Or did I here that wrong?
>>
>> If so, I'm sure google and lots of folks are scrambling to replace
>> java.....?
>
> Yes the supreme court refused to hear google's appeal to the Federal
> Circuit's decision (this despite my being a signatory to an amicus brief
> asking them to hear the appeal :-) ).
>
> I believe "The lawsuit will now return to the trial court to decide
> Google’s fair use defense to Oracle’s API copyright claim."
>
> A sad day,

Yup, I forget the details of the original decisions but if I were SCO
I'd be looking for opportunities to appeal since all those DEFINEs in
the linux headers are now copyrightable APIs.  Likewise, better check
your licenses - if you're writing in C without permission of the
original authors they might have a claim against you, though as the
supreme court points out you can always spend $200k on lawyers to
argue fair use.

That said, I'm not sure to what extent this ruling affects Google
moving forward, with their move to ART.  They will still have to fight
over past damages, of course, but they should be OK.  And, if
Samsung/Amazon ever gives Google too much trouble I guess Google can
always sue them over using ART now.  So much for standards.  Oh, and I
wonder what this means for video codecs whose patents have expired,
but for which copyrights on the original designs still have centuries
ahead of them (most likely)?

However, if this is the decision that ultimately causes everybody to
stop using FAT32, perhaps it won't be an entirely sad day.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: any one using ubuntu phones?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:16 AM, James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Folks have forgotten about 'kernel tuning'. I have deglected the linux
> kernel quite a bit of late, mostly do to the rabid frequency and
> non-sense (useless) chances being advanced. I have decided to only
> update to 'long term support' kernels. So ideas on how to set up
> masks and portage ? I guess just mask off all kernel updates and
> manually unmask those long term kernel updates? Other ideas?
>

I've started going a similar route with all the recent btrfs
regressions that have bitten me.  I'm now sticking with 3.18, and I'll
likely move on to the next longterm series once it gets more than a
few versions in.

The Gentoo kernel team's announced plan is to have stable keywords on
stable branches of the kernel, though I don't think they've promised
to maintain all of them.  Anytime there is a new stable branch arch
teams will test before it goes stable, and after that the kernel team
will release new versions straight to stable, the logic being that
they're QAed by upstream and should only contain fixes for
regressions.

The easiest way to stick with a branch is probably to just mask
anything newer.  Then you should get all new releases of that branch
until it is dropped.  However, I'm not sure how noisy portage will be
if your branch is discontinued.

I've actually taken to just cloning kernel-stable.git.  They keep
branches for all their releases which makes it pretty easy to do a
pull when you want an update, or you can just do a fetch and checkout
the release tag.  I also do all my builds with O=/var/tmp/linux/ so
that my git checkout stays clean (and it is faster anyway writing to
tmpfs).  But, with git if you mess up your checkout you can always
reset it.

I could almost see myself switching back to gentoo-sources for kdbus
though, now that they're including it (optionally).

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: any one using ubuntu phones?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 12:37:14 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:

> The easiest way to stick with a branch is probably to just mask
> anything newer.  Then you should get all new releases of that branch
> until it is dropped.  However, I'm not sure how noisy portage will be
> if your branch is discontinued.

It just tries to install the highest version that matches your masks,
which will be lower than the one that was discontinued. Of course, as
this is the kernel sources, it doesn't matter which other versions
portage chooses to install, you can still use the old one.

You will get warnings that you have an installed package that is no
longer in the tree, but you could always copy the ebuild to a local
overlay to avoid both of these issues.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The word 'Windows' is a word out of an old dialect of the Apaches.
It means: 'White man staring through glass-screen onto an hourglass...')

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Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 09:42:58PM +0100, john wrote:

> behrouz khosravi <bz.khosravi@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > If you build/install Android on a device, then it only contains what
> > > you put there, and you can just as easily remove it.  If you let
> > > somebody else build/install android on a device and not give you
> > > root access, then it is painful.
> > > […]
> > > Your problem isn't with Android the OS.  Your problem is with the
> > > experience your phone vendor is giving you.  All that lockdown stuff
> > > that you seem to hate is 100% supported by the Linux kernel - you're
> > > just not turning it on with a typical distro install.
> > > […]
> > > For a mobile OS your life is made even more difficult by Android,
> > > since many who would tend to write a competing OS probably consider
> > > it good enough.
> > >
> > > I'm really not interested in yet another android so much as more
> > > open hardware to run android on.  Vendors are getting better about
> > > allowing unlocking, but driver support/etc is still a mess.
> > >
> > > Oh, and I don't like the general move of APIs into Google Play
> > > Services.  That really needs to be split into two applications.
> > > […]
> >
> > I know what you mean. This is all more or less true, but what can we do
> > in this situation? I will try to move toward whatever promotes openness,
> > and please do not tell me that ubuntu is not more open that android. In
> > android I cant even have pure native apps! some parts of an application
> > should always be in java.
>
> Jolla do a phone which is Linux based. No idea if this would suit your
> needs but may be worth a look. It's GUI is good and it uses Wayland.
> Not sure how open it is!

I second Jolla.
FWIW, I consider buying one myself if and when my current Android¹ finally
kicks the bucket. As far as I already know about its Sailfish OS: you can
install native (processor native, not bytecode native, i.e. C) programs via
RPM package management and it runs pulse audio underneath, as one example of
standard linux software.
It does not have high-power hardware like high-end androids, but similar to
Crapple devices – thanks to the OS *and* userspace running natively – its
medium-range hardware is more than andequate to run everything smoothly.

And if you *do* need Android software (like I would with Osmand), you can
actually run it on Jolla, too, including stores like F-Droid.

What still holds me off a little is that – in my view – 4½″ is already too
big for a really mobile device. I’d consider around 4″ to be the maximum to
comfortably fit in any pocket. But in the end, I see hardly any alternative
(for me of course). Plus my money stays on the continent. ;-Þ


¹ A cheap Huawei from early 2013, 3.5″, running CyanogenMod with Android
4.2. It has a puny single-core and is specced at the low end, but it still
runs and suits my needs.

-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

Every day has the same length, only a different width.

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Re: [gentoo-user] any one using ubuntu phones?

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 07:46:59PM +0200, Frank Steinmetzger wrote:

> > Jolla do a phone which is Linux based. No idea if this would suit your
> > needs but may be worth a look. It's GUI is good and it uses Wayland.
> > Not sure how open it is!
> 
> I second Jolla.
> FWIW, I consider buying one myself if and when my current Android¹ finally
> kicks the bucket. As far as I already know about its Sailfish OS: you can
> install native (processor native, not bytecode native, i.e. C) programs via
> RPM package management and it runs pulse audio underneath, as one example of
> standard linux software.

Oh and I forgot: Jolla has its root in MeeGo, as it was founded in part by
former team members of Nokia’s MeeGo team. Graphically it builds upon Qt.
-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

Freedom for the pavements -- death to the dogs!

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[gentoo-user] Re: any one using ubuntu phones?

[walt]

On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:28:16 -0500
»Q« <boxcars@gmx.net> wrote:

> The old-school, drop-down, text-only menu bar can be unhidden via a
> checkbox in the 'customize' dialog.  It's been hidden by default since
> well before Australis.

Thank you :)  I never noticed the 'customize' dialog and I probably
never would have.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: any one using ubuntu phones?

[konsolebox]

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 3:55 AM, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:28:16 -0500
> »Q« <boxcars@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> The old-school, drop-down, text-only menu bar can be unhidden via a
>> checkbox in the 'customize' dialog.  It's been hidden by default since
>> well before Australis.
>
> Thank you :)  I never noticed the 'customize' dialog and I probably
> never would have.

Better get used to using alt-f, alt-v, etc. key combinations instead
and realize that the menu being hidden is actually worth it giving you
extra space for the page.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: any one using ubuntu phones?

[Frank Steinmetzger]

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On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 09:53:23AM -0600, Jc García wrote:
> 2015-06-30 8:28 GMT-06:00 »Q« <boxcars@gmx.net>:
> > On Tue, 30 Jun 2015 06:36:10 -0400
> > "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> >> They've removed text from the "File Edit View etc..."
> >> menu.  Instead, they've inserted a bunch of heiroglyphics/icons.
> >
> > The old-school, drop-down, text-only menu bar can be unhidden via a
> > checkbox in the 'customize' dialog.  It's been hidden by default since
> > well before Australis.
> Just presing the Alt key also shows the dropdown menus, and all those
> icons dont need to be there, contrary to a claim made here I found
> this the most customizable GUI firefox has had,

Mozilla’s Marketing claimed this, too. But before Australis hit, the menu
was just another movable item which allowed me to have everything in a
single bar at the top: menu, address bar and bookmarks. This was not
possible anymore after the change.
Thankfully, at some point I found pentadactyl (vimperator fork) which
enabled me to reduce the FX GUI to the web view and the single status bar
with noscript/adblock/flashblock icon, plus the tabbar if needed. The only
thing I really miss now is FlagFox, b/c that can’t be moved out of the
address bar anymore.

-- 
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla’
Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

Big events may cast their shadow under the eyes.

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