[gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 2860 bytes --]

First some general observations that relate to kmail2:

I thought of giving the latest kmail-4.12.5 a spin.  So installed it on a 
machine and set up a couple of IMAP4 servers to get messages from.  An account 
with a messages in the low hundreds works fine.  An account with messages in 
the 100k plus range works like a dog.  While kmail fetches headers and then 
akonadi sets off to organise threads and whatever else it wants to do the 
application becomes pretty much unresponsive and the CPU climbs up to 98%.  
Half an hour later I can get back to it.  :-@

Anyway, this is not the current problem.  I updated mysql to 5.5.39, then I 
kmail would not start with akonadi failing with "mysql log containing errors".  
So I ran:

 mysql_upgrade --socket=/tmp/akonadi-michael.NFvLpB/mysql.socket

which completed without an error.  Kmail still failed to start.  Trying to 
start akonadi console states:

"Failed to connect to database.  Driver not loaded"

Then the pop up Details window says MySQL log contains errors, just like when 
I try to start kmail.  This is what I see in 
.local/share/akonadi/db_data/mysql.err:

InnoDB: Unable to lock ./ibdata1, error: 11
InnoDB: Check that you do not already have another mysqld process
InnoDB: using the same InnoDB data or log files.
InnoDB: Unable to lock ./ibdata1, error: 11
InnoDB: Check that you do not already have another mysqld process
InnoDB: using the same InnoDB data or log files.
140809 20:58:42  InnoDB: Unable to open the first data file
InnoDB: Error in opening ./ibdata1
140809 20:58:42  InnoDB: Operating system error number 11 in a file operation.
InnoDB: Error number 11 means 'Resource temporarily unavailable'.
InnoDB: Some operating system error numbers are described at
InnoDB: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/operating-system-error-codes.html
140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: Could not open or create data files.
140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: If you tried to add new data files, and it failed 
here,
140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: you should now edit innodb_data_file_path in my.cnf 
back
140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: to what it was, and remove the new ibdata files InnoDB 
created
140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: in this failed attempt. InnoDB only wrote those files 
full of
140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: zeros, but did not yet use them in any way. But be 
careful: do not
140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: remove old data files which contain your precious 
data!
140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Plugin 'InnoDB' init function returned error.
140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Plugin 'InnoDB' registration as a STORAGE ENGINE 
failed.
140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Unknown/unsupported storage engine: innodb
140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Aborting


So I moved ./ibdata* and tried again with the same error.  Is there something 
else I should be doing here to get this going?

-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 473 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[J. Roeleveld]

On Saturday, August 09, 2014 09:00:48 PM Mick wrote:
> First some general observations that relate to kmail2:
> 
> I thought of giving the latest kmail-4.12.5 a spin.  So installed it on a
> machine and set up a couple of IMAP4 servers to get messages from.  An
> account with a messages in the low hundreds works fine.  An account with
> messages in the 100k plus range works like a dog.  While kmail fetches
> headers and then akonadi sets off to organise threads and whatever else it
> wants to do the application becomes pretty much unresponsive and the CPU
> climbs up to 98%. Half an hour later I can get back to it.  :-@
> 
> Anyway, this is not the current problem.  I updated mysql to 5.5.39, then I
> kmail would not start with akonadi failing with "mysql log containing
> errors". So I ran:

<snipped>

Why do you run unstable mysql with stable kmail?

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 09.08.2014 um 22:00 schrieb Mick:
> First some general observations that relate to kmail2:
>
> I thought of giving the latest kmail-4.12.5 a spin.  So installed it on a 
> machine and set up a couple of IMAP4 servers to get messages from.  An account 
> with a messages in the low hundreds works fine.  An account with messages in 
> the 100k plus range works like a dog.  While kmail fetches headers and then 
> akonadi sets off to organise threads and whatever else it wants to do the 
> application becomes pretty much unresponsive and the CPU climbs up to 98%.  
> Half an hour later I can get back to it.  :-@
>
> Anyway, this is not the current problem.  I updated mysql to 5.5.39, then I 
> kmail would not start with akonadi failing with "mysql log containing errors".  
> So I ran:
>
>  mysql_upgrade --socket=/tmp/akonadi-michael.NFvLpB/mysql.socket
>
> which completed without an error.  Kmail still failed to start.  Trying to 
> start akonadi console states:
>
> "Failed to connect to database.  Driver not loaded"
>
> Then the pop up Details window says MySQL log contains errors, just like when 
> I try to start kmail.  This is what I see in 
> .local/share/akonadi/db_data/mysql.err:
>
> InnoDB: Unable to lock ./ibdata1, error: 11
> InnoDB: Check that you do not already have another mysqld process
> InnoDB: using the same InnoDB data or log files.
> InnoDB: Unable to lock ./ibdata1, error: 11
> InnoDB: Check that you do not already have another mysqld process
> InnoDB: using the same InnoDB data or log files.
> 140809 20:58:42  InnoDB: Unable to open the first data file
> InnoDB: Error in opening ./ibdata1
> 140809 20:58:42  InnoDB: Operating system error number 11 in a file operation.
> InnoDB: Error number 11 means 'Resource temporarily unavailable'.
> InnoDB: Some operating system error numbers are described at
> InnoDB: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/operating-system-error-codes.html
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: Could not open or create data files.
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: If you tried to add new data files, and it failed 
> here,
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: you should now edit innodb_data_file_path in my.cnf 
> back
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: to what it was, and remove the new ibdata files InnoDB 
> created
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: in this failed attempt. InnoDB only wrote those files 
> full of
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: zeros, but did not yet use them in any way. But be 
> careful: do not
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: remove old data files which contain your precious 
> data!
> 140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Plugin 'InnoDB' init function returned error.
> 140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Plugin 'InnoDB' registration as a STORAGE ENGINE 
> failed.
> 140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Unknown/unsupported storage engine: innodb
> 140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Aborting
>
>
> So I moved ./ibdata* and tried again with the same error.  Is there something 
> else I should be doing here to get this going?
>

isn't it great? back in the days when kmail stored emails in files,
everything worked great and even folders with 100k mails were not a problem.

But, no, they had to break that.

I lost ca 500k emails thanks to akonadi-crap and errors like that. I
really loved kmail and thunderbird is garbage compared - but akonadi
took away that choice.

Thank you, kdepim-devs for making the dumbest decision ever! *thumbsup*

[gentoo-user] Re: akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 4294 bytes --]

On Saturday 09 Aug 2014 21:00:48 Mick wrote:
> First some general observations that relate to kmail2:
> 
> I thought of giving the latest kmail-4.12.5 a spin.  So installed it on a
> machine and set up a couple of IMAP4 servers to get messages from.  An
> account with a messages in the low hundreds works fine.  An account with
> messages in the 100k plus range works like a dog.  While kmail fetches
> headers and then akonadi sets off to organise threads and whatever else it
> wants to do the application becomes pretty much unresponsive and the CPU
> climbs up to 98%. Half an hour later I can get back to it.  :-@
> 
> Anyway, this is not the current problem.  I updated mysql to 5.5.39, then I
> kmail would not start with akonadi failing with "mysql log containing
> errors". So I ran:
> 
>  mysql_upgrade --socket=/tmp/akonadi-michael.NFvLpB/mysql.socket
> 
> which completed without an error.  Kmail still failed to start.  Trying to
> start akonadi console states:
> 
> "Failed to connect to database.  Driver not loaded"
> 
> Then the pop up Details window says MySQL log contains errors, just like
> when I try to start kmail.  This is what I see in
> .local/share/akonadi/db_data/mysql.err:
> 
> InnoDB: Unable to lock ./ibdata1, error: 11
> InnoDB: Check that you do not already have another mysqld process
> InnoDB: using the same InnoDB data or log files.
> InnoDB: Unable to lock ./ibdata1, error: 11
> InnoDB: Check that you do not already have another mysqld process
> InnoDB: using the same InnoDB data or log files.
> 140809 20:58:42  InnoDB: Unable to open the first data file
> InnoDB: Error in opening ./ibdata1
> 140809 20:58:42  InnoDB: Operating system error number 11 in a file
> operation. InnoDB: Error number 11 means 'Resource temporarily
> unavailable'.
> InnoDB: Some operating system error numbers are described at
> InnoDB:
> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/operating-system-error-codes.html
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: Could not open or create data files.
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: If you tried to add new data files, and it failed
> here,
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: you should now edit innodb_data_file_path in my.cnf
> back
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: to what it was, and remove the new ibdata files
> InnoDB created
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: in this failed attempt. InnoDB only wrote those
> files full of
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: zeros, but did not yet use them in any way. But be
> careful: do not
> 140809 20:58:42 InnoDB: remove old data files which contain your precious
> data!
> 140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Plugin 'InnoDB' init function returned error.
> 140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Plugin 'InnoDB' registration as a STORAGE ENGINE
> failed.
> 140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Unknown/unsupported storage engine: innodb
> 140809 20:58:42 [ERROR] Aborting
> 
> 
> So I moved ./ibdata* and tried again with the same error.  Is there
> something else I should be doing here to get this going?


Kids, when in doubt, go back to the basics!  :-p

I thought that I *had* run revdep-rebuild, but perhaps I am losing count with 
the different machines I look after?  Ha, ha! 

Anyway, after another irrelevant update today revdep-rebuild showed this:
========================================================================
 * Checking dynamic linking consistency
[ 33% ]  *   broken /usr/lib/qt4/plugins/sqldrivers/libqsqlmysql.so (requires 
libmysqlclient_r.so.16)
[ 85% ]  *   broken /usr/lib64/qt4/plugins/sqldrivers/libqsqlmysql.so 
(requires libmysqlclient_r.so.16)
[ 100% ]                 
 * Generated new 3_broken.rr
 * Assigning files to packages
 *   /usr/lib/qt4/plugins/sqldrivers/libqsqlmysql.so -> dev-qt/qtsql
 *   /usr/lib64/qt4/plugins/sqldrivers/libqsqlmysql.so -> dev-qt/qtsql
 * Generated new 4_raw.rr and 4_owners.rr
 * Cleaning list of packages to rebuild
 * Generated new 4_pkgs.rr
 * Assigning packages to ebuilds
 * Generated new 4_ebuilds.rr
 * Evaluating package order
 * Generated new 5_order.rr
 * All prepared. Starting rebuild
emerge --complete-graph=y --oneshot  --verbose -a dev-qt/qtsql:4
========================================================================

Now all works as expected - apologies for the noise!

-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 473 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Mick]

On Monday 11 Aug 2014 20:01:16 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> isn't it great? back in the days when kmail stored emails in files,
> everything worked great and even folders with 100k mails were not a problem.
> 
> But, no, they had to break that.
> 
> I lost ca 500k emails thanks to akonadi-crap and errors like that. I
> really loved kmail and thunderbird is garbage compared - but akonadi
> took away that choice.
> 
> Thank you, kdepim-devs for making the dumbest decision ever! *thumbsup*

I share your feelings although I haven't lost messages in my current attempt 
to road test kmail2.  I am dreading the moment when kmail1 will stop working 
due to bitrot and I'll have to make a choice.   :-(

-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1129 bytes --]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 20:05:51 +0100, Mick wrote:

> Anyway, after another irrelevant update today revdep-rebuild showed
> this:
> ========================================================================
>  * Checking dynamic linking consistency
> [ 33% ]  *   broken /usr/lib/qt4/plugins/sqldrivers/libqsqlmysql.so
> (requires libmysqlclient_r.so.16)
> [ 85% ]  *   broken /usr/lib64/qt4/plugins/sqldrivers/libqsqlmysql.so 
> (requires libmysqlclient_r.so.16)
[snip]
> ========================================================================
> 
> Now all works as expected - apologies for the noise!

It appears the recent mysql update broke quite a few things, my MythTV
fronted started sulking while the backend just sucked up all the CPU
cycles. Something else broke too, but I can't remember more than two
things these days. @preserved-rebuild showed nothing but revdep-rebuild
cleaned things up. It appears that revdep-rebuild is not ready for
retirement yet, although this is the first time in ages that I've needed
it.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Energize!" said Picard and the pink bunny appeared...

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 181 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> It appears the recent mysql update broke quite a few things, my MythTV
> fronted started sulking while the backend just sucked up all the CPU
> cycles. Something else broke too, but I can't remember more than two
> things these days. @preserved-rebuild showed nothing but revdep-rebuild
> cleaned things up. It appears that revdep-rebuild is not ready for
> retirement yet, although this is the first time in ages that I've needed
> it.

I had a similar experience on two Gentoo boxes, including MythTV.  I
don't think it was myth itself but rather something in-between.  I did
catch a missing slot operator dep on mythplugins and will be fixing
that in the next bump, which I should be doing soon anyway if I get a
weekend without a car wreck.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> It appears the recent mysql update broke quite a few things, my MythTV
> fronted started sulking while the backend just sucked up all the CPU
> cycles. Something else broke too, but I can't remember more than two
> things these days. @preserved-rebuild showed nothing but
> revdep-rebuild cleaned things up. It appears that revdep-rebuild is
> not ready for retirement yet, although this is the first time in ages
> that I've needed it. 

Jeez Neil.  If you can remember two things at the same time, you may
have me beat.  < scratches head >  Now where did that mouse go?

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[J. Roeleveld]

On Monday, August 11, 2014 10:45:07 PM Mick wrote:
> On Monday 11 Aug 2014 20:01:16 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > isn't it great? back in the days when kmail stored emails in files,
> > everything worked great and even folders with 100k mails were not a
> > problem.
> > 
> > But, no, they had to break that.
> > 
> > I lost ca 500k emails thanks to akonadi-crap and errors like that. I
> > really loved kmail and thunderbird is garbage compared - but akonadi
> > took away that choice.
> > 
> > Thank you, kdepim-devs for making the dumbest decision ever! *thumbsup*
> 
> I share your feelings although I haven't lost messages in my current attempt
> to road test kmail2.  I am dreading the moment when kmail1 will stop
> working due to bitrot and I'll have to make a choice.   :-(

With a modern machine and the latest versions, it's not too bad and responds 
quicker then kmail-1 did. With the old version, I often had kmail become 
unresponsive when synchronizing the email.

I didn't loose any emails, but that is more likely related to the emails being 
stored on an imap server, rather then being lucky.

I really don't see the point of forcing mysql as a backend. Sqlite would have 
been a better choice.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On 12/08/2014 07:36, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Monday, August 11, 2014 10:45:07 PM Mick wrote:
>> On Monday 11 Aug 2014 20:01:16 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> isn't it great? back in the days when kmail stored emails in files,
>>> everything worked great and even folders with 100k mails were not a
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> But, no, they had to break that.
>>>
>>> I lost ca 500k emails thanks to akonadi-crap and errors like that. I
>>> really loved kmail and thunderbird is garbage compared - but akonadi
>>> took away that choice.
>>>
>>> Thank you, kdepim-devs for making the dumbest decision ever! *thumbsup*
>>
>> I share your feelings although I haven't lost messages in my current attempt
>> to road test kmail2.  I am dreading the moment when kmail1 will stop
>> working due to bitrot and I'll have to make a choice.   :-(
> 
> With a modern machine and the latest versions, it's not too bad and responds 
> quicker then kmail-1 did. With the old version, I often had kmail become 
> unresponsive when synchronizing the email.
> 
> I didn't loose any emails, but that is more likely related to the emails being 
> stored on an imap server, rather then being lucky.
> 
> I really don't see the point of forcing mysql as a backend. Sqlite would have 
> been a better choice.


Way back when in the dark days of KDE-4.4 or thereabouts, the KDE devs
did do extensive tests with mysql vs sqlite and found sqlite lacking in
horsepower. Remember that it must store the metadata for all your mails
and some of us have lots of mail. IIRC there was also serious contention
issues with multiple threads.

sqlite is an amazing little product, but it does have it's limits. It
performs really well as an embedded datastore to replace flat file
storage with an SQL interface, and my gut-feel evaluation is that it
runs out of steam at similar orders of magnitude of data.

Amarok incidentally has almost exactly the same issues and the same
solution was adopted


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 1023 bytes --]

On Sunday 10 Aug 2014 10:34:44 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Saturday, August 09, 2014 09:00:48 PM Mick wrote:
> > First some general observations that relate to kmail2:
> > 
> > I thought of giving the latest kmail-4.12.5 a spin.  So installed it on a
> > machine and set up a couple of IMAP4 servers to get messages from.  An
> > account with a messages in the low hundreds works fine.  An account with
> > messages in the 100k plus range works like a dog.  While kmail fetches
> > headers and then akonadi sets off to organise threads and whatever else
> > it wants to do the application becomes pretty much unresponsive and the
> > CPU climbs up to 98%. Half an hour later I can get back to it.  :-@
> > 
> > Anyway, this is not the current problem.  I updated mysql to 5.5.39, then
> > I kmail would not start with akonadi failing with "mysql log containing
> 
> > errors". So I ran:
> <snipped>
> 
> Why do you run unstable mysql with stable kmail?

mysql-5.5.39 is stable now.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 473 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Neil Bothwick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 952 bytes --]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 20:38:57 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:

> > It appears the recent mysql update broke quite a few things, my MythTV
> > fronted started sulking while the backend just sucked up all the CPU
> > cycles. Something else broke too, but I can't remember more than two
> > things these days. @preserved-rebuild showed nothing but
> > revdep-rebuild cleaned things up. It appears that revdep-rebuild is
> > not ready for retirement yet, although this is the first time in ages
> > that I've needed it.  
> 
> I had a similar experience on two Gentoo boxes, including MythTV.  I
> don't think it was myth itself but rather something in-between.

Yes, I think it was dev-qt/qtsql that broke MythTV. I notice that
dev-python/mysql-python was rebuilt at the same time, so that must have
been missed too, whereas dev-perl/DBD-mysql was re-emerged right after
mysql.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 2: Exact estimate

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 181 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Walter Dnes]

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 08:00:33PM -0500, Dale wrote
> Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > It appears the recent mysql update broke quite a few things, my MythTV
> > fronted started sulking while the backend just sucked up all the CPU
> > cycles. Something else broke too, but I can't remember more than two
> > things these days. @preserved-rebuild showed nothing but
> > revdep-rebuild cleaned things up. It appears that revdep-rebuild is
> > not ready for retirement yet, although this is the first time in ages
> > that I've needed it. 
> 
> Jeez Neil.  If you can remember two things at the same time, you may
> have me beat.  < scratches head >  Now where did that mouse go?
> 
> Dale

  They say that memory is the second thing to go.  I forget what the
first is.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 12 August 2014 08:31:34 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 20:38:57 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> > > It appears the recent mysql update broke quite a few things, my MythTV
> > > fronted started sulking while the backend just sucked up all the CPU
> > > cycles. Something else broke too, but I can't remember more than two
> > > things these days. @preserved-rebuild showed nothing but
> > > revdep-rebuild cleaned things up. It appears that revdep-rebuild is
> > > not ready for retirement yet, although this is the first time in ages
> > > that I've needed it.

It's so long since I last needed it that I didn't even think of it this time.

> > I had a similar experience on two Gentoo boxes, including MythTV.  I
> > don't think it was myth itself but rather something in-between.
> 
> Yes, I think it was dev-qt/qtsql that broke MythTV. I notice that
> dev-python/mysql-python was rebuilt at the same time, so that must have
> been missed too, whereas dev-perl/DBD-mysql was re-emerged right after
> mysql.

It broke kmail here. @preserved-rebuild rebuilt dev-perl/DBD-mysql but didn't 
catch qtsql.

Thank you all for reminding me of revdep-rebuild.

-- 
Regards
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On 12/08/2014 09:57, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 08:00:33PM -0500, Dale wrote
>> Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>> It appears the recent mysql update broke quite a few things, my MythTV
>>> fronted started sulking while the backend just sucked up all the CPU
>>> cycles. Something else broke too, but I can't remember more than two
>>> things these days. @preserved-rebuild showed nothing but
>>> revdep-rebuild cleaned things up. It appears that revdep-rebuild is
>>> not ready for retirement yet, although this is the first time in ages
>>> that I've needed it. 
>>
>> Jeez Neil.  If you can remember two things at the same time, you may
>> have me beat.  < scratches head >  Now where did that mouse go?
>>
>> Dale
> 
>   They say that memory is the second thing to go.  I forget what the
> first is.
> 


mojo?

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 2568 bytes --]

On Tuesday 12 Aug 2014 07:42:46 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 12/08/2014 07:36, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > On Monday, August 11, 2014 10:45:07 PM Mick wrote:
> >> On Monday 11 Aug 2014 20:01:16 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >>> isn't it great? back in the days when kmail stored emails in files,
> >>> everything worked great and even folders with 100k mails were not a
> >>> problem.
> >>> 
> >>> But, no, they had to break that.
> >>> 
> >>> I lost ca 500k emails thanks to akonadi-crap and errors like that. I
> >>> really loved kmail and thunderbird is garbage compared - but akonadi
> >>> took away that choice.
> >>> 
> >>> Thank you, kdepim-devs for making the dumbest decision ever! *thumbsup*
> >> 
> >> I share your feelings although I haven't lost messages in my current
> >> attempt to road test kmail2.  I am dreading the moment when kmail1 will
> >> stop working due to bitrot and I'll have to make a choice.   :-(
> > 
> > With a modern machine and the latest versions, it's not too bad and
> > responds quicker then kmail-1 did. With the old version, I often had
> > kmail become unresponsive when synchronizing the email.
> > 
> > I didn't loose any emails, but that is more likely related to the emails
> > being stored on an imap server, rather then being lucky.
> > 
> > I really don't see the point of forcing mysql as a backend. Sqlite would
> > have been a better choice.
> 
> Way back when in the dark days of KDE-4.4 or thereabouts, the KDE devs
> did do extensive tests with mysql vs sqlite and found sqlite lacking in
> horsepower. Remember that it must store the metadata for all your mails
> and some of us have lots of mail. IIRC there was also serious contention
> issues with multiple threads.
> 
> sqlite is an amazing little product, but it does have it's limits. It
> performs really well as an embedded datastore to replace flat file
> storage with an SQL interface, and my gut-feel evaluation is that it
> runs out of steam at similar orders of magnitude of data.
> 
> Amarok incidentally has almost exactly the same issues and the same
> solution was adopted

Only to add that it's more than just mail.  It is the meta/data of the whole 
caboodle of the PIM suite of applications.

I recall the devs explicitly stating early enough in the KDE4 development that 
sqlite is not man enough for the job and advising everyone to move over to 
mysql.

Someone was looking at postgresql as an alternative to mysql, but I'm not sure 
that this would bring any benefit.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 473 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On 12/08/2014 11:10, Mick wrote:
> I recall the devs explicitly stating early enough in the KDE4 development that 
> sqlite is not man enough for the job and advising everyone to move over to 
> mysql.
> 
> Someone was looking at postgresql as an alternative to mysql, but I'm not sure 
> that this would bring any benefit.


pg is a fine database, but for this use will always be a 2nd class
citizen. Most users will already have mysql installed, or will be
willing to install it.

The number of folks with pg and without mysql will probably be small

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[J. Roeleveld]

On 12 August 2014 14:06:07 CEST, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 12/08/2014 11:10, Mick wrote:
>> I recall the devs explicitly stating early enough in the KDE4
>development that 
>> sqlite is not man enough for the job and advising everyone to move
>over to 
>> mysql.
>> 
>> Someone was looking at postgresql as an alternative to mysql, but I'm
>not sure 
>> that this would bring any benefit.
>
>
>pg is a fine database, but for this use will always be a 2nd class
>citizen. Most users will already have mysql installed, or will be
>willing to install it.
>
>The number of folks with pg and without mysql will probably be small

Not necessarily.
People who care about databases actually supporting SQL properly and performing properly will prefer PostgreSQL.

I don't like to be forced to run a MySQL instance as well. It's often the laziness of developers that causes the difficulty of supporting a different database when they started with MySQL.
If you start with a different one, like PostgrSQL, supporting different database engines is very simple.

--
Joost
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On 12/08/2014 15:28, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On 12 August 2014 14:06:07 CEST, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/08/2014 11:10, Mick wrote:
>>> I recall the devs explicitly stating early enough in the KDE4
>> development that 
>>> sqlite is not man enough for the job and advising everyone to move
>> over to 
>>> mysql.
>>>
>>> Someone was looking at postgresql as an alternative to mysql, but I'm
>> not sure 
>>> that this would bring any benefit.
>>
>>
>> pg is a fine database, but for this use will always be a 2nd class
>> citizen. Most users will already have mysql installed, or will be
>> willing to install it.
>>
>> The number of folks with pg and without mysql will probably be small
> 
> Not necessarily.
> People who care about databases actually supporting SQL properly and performing properly will prefer PostgreSQL.
> 
> I don't like to be forced to run a MySQL instance as well. It's often the laziness of developers that causes the difficulty of supporting a different database when they started with MySQL.
> If you start with a different one, like PostgrSQL, supporting different database engines is very simple.


I don't think you read what I said.

I didn't say postgresql shouldn't be supported, I said it would always
end up being a second class citizen as the number of people who'd be
happy with mysql will vastly outnumber the number of people who highly
desire postgresql. So, logically, a postgresql driver in this case will
probably just bitrot away. Whihc nicely explains the likely reason why
that driver is not there.

People like yourself who care about databases are very much in the
minority of users, even on Linux. Most users across the boards just
don't give a shit. Them's the breaks.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[J. Roeleveld]

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 03:38:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 12/08/2014 15:28, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > On 12 August 2014 14:06:07 CEST, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> 
wrote:
> >> On 12/08/2014 11:10, Mick wrote:
> >>> I recall the devs explicitly stating early enough in the KDE4
> >> 
> >> development that
> >> 
> >>> sqlite is not man enough for the job and advising everyone to move
> >> 
> >> over to
> >> 
> >>> mysql.
> >>> 
> >>> Someone was looking at postgresql as an alternative to mysql, but I'm
> >> 
> >> not sure
> >> 
> >>> that this would bring any benefit.
> >> 
> >> pg is a fine database, but for this use will always be a 2nd class
> >> citizen. Most users will already have mysql installed, or will be
> >> willing to install it.
> >> 
> >> The number of folks with pg and without mysql will probably be small
> > 
> > Not necessarily.
> > People who care about databases actually supporting SQL properly and
> > performing properly will prefer PostgreSQL.
> > 
> > I don't like to be forced to run a MySQL instance as well. It's often the
> > laziness of developers that causes the difficulty of supporting a
> > different database when they started with MySQL. If you start with a
> > different one, like PostgrSQL, supporting different database engines is
> > very simple.
>
> I don't think you read what I said.

Sorry, didn't read the below in what you put.

> I didn't say postgresql shouldn't be supported, I said it would always
> end up being a second class citizen as the number of people who'd be
> happy with mysql will vastly outnumber the number of people who highly
> desire postgresql. So, logically, a postgresql driver in this case will
> probably just bitrot away. Whihc nicely explains the likely reason why
> that driver is not there.

It wouldn't bitrot away as there would be people willing to keep it working, 
provided it wouldn't require a MySQL -> SQL translator to be kept up-to-date.

> People like yourself who care about databases are very much in the
> minority of users, even on Linux. Most users across the boards just
> don't give a shit. Them's the breaks.

Users never care about what they install. I just wish the majority of 
developers would actually be willing to follow some simple guidelines to make 
it actually possible to others to write and maintain the drivers to connect to 
different databases.

Several attempts have been made by people to add support for different 
databases to various projects. I've tried to do it myself on occasion, but 
even when patches are accepted by upstream, they get broken by upstream at a 
future release again because of the bad design that is often employed by lazy 
developers.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Daniel Frey]

On 08/12/2014 12:31 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> 
> Yes, I think it was dev-qt/qtsql that broke MythTV. I notice that
> dev-python/mysql-python was rebuilt at the same time, so that must have
> been missed too, whereas dev-perl/DBD-mysql was re-emerged right after
> mysql.
> 
> 

It most definitely was, I just updated my backend and 3 remote frontends
and had this issue. Portage missed this completely, it was
revdep-rebuild that found this breakage and repaired it. From what I
remember there was a python sql package that wound up being broken too.

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 10:38 AM, Daniel Frey <djqfrey@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 08/12/2014 12:31 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>
>> Yes, I think it was dev-qt/qtsql that broke MythTV. I notice that
>> dev-python/mysql-python was rebuilt at the same time, so that must have
>> been missed too, whereas dev-perl/DBD-mysql was re-emerged right after
>> mysql.
>>
>>
>
> It most definitely was, I just updated my backend and 3 remote frontends
> and had this issue. Portage missed this completely, it was
> revdep-rebuild that found this breakage and repaired it. From what I
> remember there was a python sql package that wound up being broken too.

Yup.  My frontends broke after updating the backend.  Clearly there is
some kind of incompatibility between client/server cross-version.
This isn't just a linking issue.  I suspect qtsql was the issue - I
just didn't recall that when I made my last post.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 12.08.2014 um 16:10 schrieb J. Roeleveld:
> On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 03:38:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> On 12/08/2014 15:28, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>>> On 12 August 2014 14:06:07 CEST, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>>>> On 12/08/2014 11:10, Mick wrote:
>>>>> I recall the devs explicitly stating early enough in the KDE4
>>>> development that
>>>>
>>>>> sqlite is not man enough for the job and advising everyone to move
>>>> over to
>>>>
>>>>> mysql.
>>>>>
>>>>> Someone was looking at postgresql as an alternative to mysql, but I'm
>>>> not sure
>>>>
>>>>> that this would bring any benefit.
>>>> pg is a fine database, but for this use will always be a 2nd class
>>>> citizen. Most users will already have mysql installed, or will be
>>>> willing to install it.
>>>>
>>>> The number of folks with pg and without mysql will probably be small
>>> Not necessarily.
>>> People who care about databases actually supporting SQL properly and
>>> performing properly will prefer PostgreSQL.
>>>
>>> I don't like to be forced to run a MySQL instance as well. It's often the
>>> laziness of developers that causes the difficulty of supporting a
>>> different database when they started with MySQL. If you start with a
>>> different one, like PostgrSQL, supporting different database engines is
>>> very simple.
>> I don't think you read what I said.
> Sorry, didn't read the below in what you put.
>
>> I didn't say postgresql shouldn't be supported, I said it would always
>> end up being a second class citizen as the number of people who'd be
>> happy with mysql will vastly outnumber the number of people who highly
>> desire postgresql. So, logically, a postgresql driver in this case will
>> probably just bitrot away. Whihc nicely explains the likely reason why
>> that driver is not there.
> It wouldn't bitrot away as there would be people willing to keep it working, 
> provided it wouldn't require a MySQL -> SQL translator to be kept up-to-date.
>
>> People like yourself who care about databases are very much in the
>> minority of users, even on Linux. Most users across the boards just
>> don't give a shit. Them's the breaks.
> Users never care about what they install. I just wish the majority of 
> developers would actually be willing to follow some simple guidelines to make 
> it actually possible to others to write and maintain the drivers to connect to 
> different databases.
>
> Several attempts have been made by people to add support for different 
> databases to various projects. I've tried to do it myself on occasion, but 
> even when patches are accepted by upstream, they get broken by upstream at a 
> future release again because of the bad design that is often employed by lazy 
> developers.
>
> --
> Joost
>
>
wasn't qtsql once supposed to that?

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[J. Roeleveld]

On 12 August 2014 20:21:03 CEST, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>Am 12.08.2014 um 16:10 schrieb J. Roeleveld:
>> On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 03:38:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>> On 12/08/2014 15:28, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>>>> On 12 August 2014 14:06:07 CEST, Alan McKinnon
><alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/08/2014 11:10, Mick wrote:
>>>>>> I recall the devs explicitly stating early enough in the KDE4
>>>>> development that
>>>>>
>>>>>> sqlite is not man enough for the job and advising everyone to
>move
>>>>> over to
>>>>>
>>>>>> mysql.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Someone was looking at postgresql as an alternative to mysql, but
>I'm
>>>>> not sure
>>>>>
>>>>>> that this would bring any benefit.
>>>>> pg is a fine database, but for this use will always be a 2nd class
>>>>> citizen. Most users will already have mysql installed, or will be
>>>>> willing to install it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The number of folks with pg and without mysql will probably be
>small
>>>> Not necessarily.
>>>> People who care about databases actually supporting SQL properly
>and
>>>> performing properly will prefer PostgreSQL.
>>>>
>>>> I don't like to be forced to run a MySQL instance as well. It's
>often the
>>>> laziness of developers that causes the difficulty of supporting a
>>>> different database when they started with MySQL. If you start with
>a
>>>> different one, like PostgrSQL, supporting different database
>engines is
>>>> very simple.
>>> I don't think you read what I said.
>> Sorry, didn't read the below in what you put.
>>
>>> I didn't say postgresql shouldn't be supported, I said it would
>always
>>> end up being a second class citizen as the number of people who'd be
>>> happy with mysql will vastly outnumber the number of people who
>highly
>>> desire postgresql. So, logically, a postgresql driver in this case
>will
>>> probably just bitrot away. Whihc nicely explains the likely reason
>why
>>> that driver is not there.
>> It wouldn't bitrot away as there would be people willing to keep it
>working, 
>> provided it wouldn't require a MySQL -> SQL translator to be kept
>up-to-date.
>>
>>> People like yourself who care about databases are very much in the
>>> minority of users, even on Linux. Most users across the boards just
>>> don't give a shit. Them's the breaks.
>> Users never care about what they install. I just wish the majority of
>
>> developers would actually be willing to follow some simple guidelines
>to make 
>> it actually possible to others to write and maintain the drivers to
>connect to 
>> different databases.
>>
>> Several attempts have been made by people to add support for
>different 
>> databases to various projects. I've tried to do it myself on
>occasion, but 
>> even when patches are accepted by upstream, they get broken by
>upstream at a 
>> future release again because of the bad design that is often employed
>by lazy 
>> developers.
>>
>> --
>> Joost
>>
>>
>wasn't qtsql once supposed to that?

If a framework like qtsql is used, swapping the database is easy.

Most developers seem to prefer to reinvent the wheel and often come up with something that vaguely resembles a circle and is held together with a mixture of glue and duck tape. 

--
Joost
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On 12/08/2014 21:00, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On 12 August 2014 20:21:03 CEST, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Am 12.08.2014 um 16:10 schrieb J. Roeleveld:
>>> On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 03:38:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>>> On 12/08/2014 15:28, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>>>>> On 12 August 2014 14:06:07 CEST, Alan McKinnon
>> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/08/2014 11:10, Mick wrote:
>>>>>>> I recall the devs explicitly stating early enough in the KDE4
>>>>>> development that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sqlite is not man enough for the job and advising everyone to
>> move
>>>>>> over to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mysql.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Someone was looking at postgresql as an alternative to mysql, but
>> I'm
>>>>>> not sure
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that this would bring any benefit.
>>>>>> pg is a fine database, but for this use will always be a 2nd class
>>>>>> citizen. Most users will already have mysql installed, or will be
>>>>>> willing to install it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The number of folks with pg and without mysql will probably be
>> small
>>>>> Not necessarily.
>>>>> People who care about databases actually supporting SQL properly
>> and
>>>>> performing properly will prefer PostgreSQL.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't like to be forced to run a MySQL instance as well. It's
>> often the
>>>>> laziness of developers that causes the difficulty of supporting a
>>>>> different database when they started with MySQL. If you start with
>> a
>>>>> different one, like PostgrSQL, supporting different database
>> engines is
>>>>> very simple.
>>>> I don't think you read what I said.
>>> Sorry, didn't read the below in what you put.
>>>
>>>> I didn't say postgresql shouldn't be supported, I said it would
>> always
>>>> end up being a second class citizen as the number of people who'd be
>>>> happy with mysql will vastly outnumber the number of people who
>> highly
>>>> desire postgresql. So, logically, a postgresql driver in this case
>> will
>>>> probably just bitrot away. Whihc nicely explains the likely reason
>> why
>>>> that driver is not there.
>>> It wouldn't bitrot away as there would be people willing to keep it
>> working, 
>>> provided it wouldn't require a MySQL -> SQL translator to be kept
>> up-to-date.
>>>
>>>> People like yourself who care about databases are very much in the
>>>> minority of users, even on Linux. Most users across the boards just
>>>> don't give a shit. Them's the breaks.
>>> Users never care about what they install. I just wish the majority of
>>
>>> developers would actually be willing to follow some simple guidelines
>> to make 
>>> it actually possible to others to write and maintain the drivers to
>> connect to 
>>> different databases.
>>>
>>> Several attempts have been made by people to add support for
>> different 
>>> databases to various projects. I've tried to do it myself on
>> occasion, but 
>>> even when patches are accepted by upstream, they get broken by
>> upstream at a 
>>> future release again because of the bad design that is often employed
>> by lazy 
>>> developers.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Joost
>>>
>>>
>> wasn't qtsql once supposed to that?
> 
> If a framework like qtsql is used, swapping the database is easy.
> 
> Most developers seem to prefer to reinvent the wheel and often come up with something that vaguely resembles a circle and is held together with a mixture of glue and duck tape. 


I blame php and others of it's ilk.

The good thing about php is that everyone and their dog can knock out
running code.
The bad thing about php is that they do.

Substitute mysql and bash if you will and tweak the content to suit - it
all works out the same.

Sensible languages (like, oh I dunno - python maybe?) have this trick
about them - you have to work hard to write awful code. You also have to
work hard to write awesome code, but if you just follow the book you
usually end up with acceptable code.

I will refrain from commenting on perl.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[J. Roeleveld]

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 09:20:59 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 12/08/2014 21:00, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > On 12 August 2014 20:21:03 CEST, Volker Armin Hemmann 
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> Am 12.08.2014 um 16:10 schrieb J. Roeleveld:
> >>> On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 03:38:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >>>> On 12/08/2014 15:28, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> >>>>> On 12 August 2014 14:06:07 CEST, Alan McKinnon
> >> 
> >> <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
> >> 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 12/08/2014 11:10, Mick wrote:
> >>>>>>> I recall the devs explicitly stating early enough in the KDE4
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> development that
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> sqlite is not man enough for the job and advising everyone to
> >> 
> >> move
> >> 
> >>>>>> over to
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> mysql.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Someone was looking at postgresql as an alternative to mysql, but
> >> 
> >> I'm
> >> 
> >>>>>> not sure
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> that this would bring any benefit.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> pg is a fine database, but for this use will always be a 2nd class
> >>>>>> citizen. Most users will already have mysql installed, or will be
> >>>>>> willing to install it.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> The number of folks with pg and without mysql will probably be
> >> 
> >> small
> >> 
> >>>>> Not necessarily.
> >>>>> People who care about databases actually supporting SQL properly
> >> 
> >> and
> >> 
> >>>>> performing properly will prefer PostgreSQL.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I don't like to be forced to run a MySQL instance as well. It's
> >> 
> >> often the
> >> 
> >>>>> laziness of developers that causes the difficulty of supporting a
> >>>>> different database when they started with MySQL. If you start with
> >> 
> >> a
> >> 
> >>>>> different one, like PostgrSQL, supporting different database
> >> 
> >> engines is
> >> 
> >>>>> very simple.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I don't think you read what I said.
> >>> 
> >>> Sorry, didn't read the below in what you put.
> >>> 
> >>>> I didn't say postgresql shouldn't be supported, I said it would
> >> 
> >> always
> >> 
> >>>> end up being a second class citizen as the number of people who'd be
> >>>> happy with mysql will vastly outnumber the number of people who
> >> 
> >> highly
> >> 
> >>>> desire postgresql. So, logically, a postgresql driver in this case
> >> 
> >> will
> >> 
> >>>> probably just bitrot away. Whihc nicely explains the likely reason
> >> 
> >> why
> >> 
> >>>> that driver is not there.
> >>> 
> >>> It wouldn't bitrot away as there would be people willing to keep it
> >> 
> >> working,
> >> 
> >>> provided it wouldn't require a MySQL -> SQL translator to be kept
> >> 
> >> up-to-date.
> >> 
> >>>> People like yourself who care about databases are very much in the
> >>>> minority of users, even on Linux. Most users across the boards just
> >>>> don't give a shit. Them's the breaks.
> >>> 
> >>> Users never care about what they install. I just wish the majority of
> >>> 
> >>> developers would actually be willing to follow some simple guidelines
> >> 
> >> to make
> >> 
> >>> it actually possible to others to write and maintain the drivers to
> >> 
> >> connect to
> >> 
> >>> different databases.
> >>> 
> >>> Several attempts have been made by people to add support for
> >> 
> >> different
> >> 
> >>> databases to various projects. I've tried to do it myself on
> >> 
> >> occasion, but
> >> 
> >>> even when patches are accepted by upstream, they get broken by
> >> 
> >> upstream at a
> >> 
> >>> future release again because of the bad design that is often employed
> >> 
> >> by lazy
> >> 
> >>> developers.
> >>> 
> >>> --
> >>> Joost
> >> 
> >> wasn't qtsql once supposed to that?
> > 
> > If a framework like qtsql is used, swapping the database is easy.
> > 
> > Most developers seem to prefer to reinvent the wheel and often come up
> > with something that vaguely resembles a circle and is held together with
> > a mixture of glue and duck tape.
> I blame php and others of it's ilk.

My point exactly.

> The good thing about php is that everyone and their dog can knock out
> running code.
> The bad thing about php is that they do.

Not PHP's fault, lazy developers' fault.

> Substitute mysql and bash if you will and tweak the content to suit - it
> all works out the same.
>
> Sensible languages (like, oh I dunno - python maybe?) have this trick
> about them - you have to work hard to write awful code. You also have to
> work hard to write awesome code, but if you just follow the book you
> usually end up with acceptable code.

I agree, to a fashion. I've seen some really bad examples of Python code 
though.

> I will refrain from commenting on perl.

I'm surprised noone came up with a Desktop Environment (like KDE and Gnome) 
written as a perl one-liner yet. ;)

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On 13/08/2014 08:38, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>> The good thing about php is that everyone and their dog can knock out
>> > running code.
>> > The bad thing about php is that they do.
> Not PHP's fault, lazy developers' fault.
> 


I disagree. It starts with the language.

If a language makes it trivially simple to write atrocious code, and
makes the developer jump through hoops to write decent code, then the
language is faulty.

PHP is like that.
Bash is also like that, omfg; bash seems to have been designed to make
decent code fundamentally impossible to write...

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Alec Ten Harmsel]

On Wed 13 Aug 2014 03:10:22 AM EDT, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Bash is also like that, omfg; bash seems to have been designed to make
> decent code fundamentally impossible to write...

I mean, if you're trying to write anything more than a screenful in Bash
you should definitely use Ruby or Python IMNHO. The RVM (Ruby Version
Manager) project recently was raising money to pay a developer to port
~20,000 lines of Bash to Ruby, which is just embarrassing.

> I will refrain from commenting on perl

I wrote 250 lines of perl and forgot how it worked a day later ;) Write
it, ship it, forget about it.

Alec

Re: [gentoo-user] akonadi ... don't you just love it?

[Alan McKinnon]

On 13/08/2014 14:18, Alec Ten Harmsel wrote:
> On Wed 13 Aug 2014 03:10:22 AM EDT, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> Bash is also like that, omfg; bash seems to have been designed to make
>> decent code fundamentally impossible to write...
> 
> I mean, if you're trying to write anything more than a screenful in Bash
> you should definitely use Ruby or Python IMNHO. The RVM (Ruby Version
> Manager) project recently was raising money to pay a developer to port
> ~20,000 lines of Bash to Ruby, which is just embarrassing.

:-)


> 
>> I will refrain from commenting on perl
> 
> I wrote 250 lines of perl and forgot how it worked a day later ;) Write
> it, ship it, forget about it.


I had the pleasure of maintaining an exceptionally well-written bespoke
perl app of 20,000+ lines. Written by an exceptional mathematician with
10+ years of sysadmin experience, that code base was a dream. It all
just made so much sense, perl notwithstanding.

At the same time I also had to maintain another giant 5,000 line
monolithic beast that brought any strong developer to their knees. Oh,
the pain, the pain.

So with perl it can go both ways


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com