From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D2A1391DB for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:25:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 15DCEE0B15; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:24:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from michel.telenet-ops.be (michel.telenet-ops.be [195.130.137.88]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D59B4E0AF7 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:24:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([94.226.55.127]) by michel.telenet-ops.be with bizsmtp id fsQm1n0062khLEN06sQm2R; Thu, 20 Mar 2014 17:24:46 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 17:24:31 +0100 From: Tom Wijsman To: bircoph@gmail.com Cc: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie Message-ID: <20140320172431.5a0b31ce@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <20140217215255.5766cb026df2f0b8002f8702@gmail.com> References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <52FF9D58.3000608@libertytrek.org> <201402152023.10543.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <5300DD51.5060207@libertytrek.org> <53010A8E.2050909@googlemail.com> <53012691.6040503@googlemail.com> <20140217215255.5766cb026df2f0b8002f8702@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.0 (GTK+ 2.24.22; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/4CmudV/SF=0HurXdTuX0UNx"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Archives-Salt: b6cb6036-94c6-4abd-93a8-72319d5241c7 X-Archives-Hash: f012326d35c855b2fdc6c7738ab05c8a --Sig_/4CmudV/SF=0HurXdTuX0UNx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 21:52:55 +0400 Andrew Savchenko wrote: > On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 15:16:36 -0600 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann > > wrote: > > > Am 16.02.2014 21:08, schrieb Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s: > > >> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann > > >> wrote: > > >> [ snip ] > > >>> or it is an idiotic decision. Because features means complexity. > > >> Yeah, like the kernel. > > >> > > >>> Complexity means bugs. > > >> Bugs get reported, bugs get fixes. Life goes on. > >=20 > > You didn't answered this, did you? >=20 > Bugs are different. Bugs in the critical system components are > critical to the whole system. If Libreoffice or browser > segfaults, some data may be lost and inconvenience created, but the > system will continue to run. If PID 1 segfaults =E2=80=94 everything is > lost, you have a kernel panic. That's why critical components should > be as simple and clean as possible. If it does, but does it? We have run it for ages without a segfault. > SysVinit code size is about 10 000 lines of code, OpenRC contains > about 13 000 lines, systemd =E2=80=94 about 200 000 lines. That is an unfair comparison, be fair and consider PID 1's code size. > Even assuming systemd code is as mature as sysvinit or openrc (though > I doubt this) you can calculate probabilities of segfaults yourself > easily. Practical statistics are more reliable than theoretical probabilities. > > >> All of them are different tools providing one capability to > > >> systemd as a whole. So systemd is a collection of tools, where > > >> each one does one thing, and it does it well. > > >> > > >> By your definition, systemd perfectly follows "the unix way". > > >> > > > > > > no, it isn't. > > > > > > How are those binaries talk to each other? > >=20 > > dbus, which is about to be integrated into the kernel with kdbus. >=20 > And this is a very, very bad idea. Looks like you don't know matter at > all: to begin with kdbus protocol is NOT compatible dbus and special > converter daemon will be needed to enable dbus to talk to kdbus. That claims it to be a bad idea, but doesn't tell why; furthermore, no technical reasoning as to why it is incompatible is given. Do you know? > The whole kdbus technology is very questionable itself (and was > forcefully pushed by RH devs), anyway it is possible to disable this > stuff in kernel and guess what will be done on my systems. Similar claims again, without any weight; that is subjective opinion. > > > Looks broken. Broken by design. The worst form of broken. > >=20 > > By your opinion, not others. >=20 > That is not just an opinion.=20 It is due to the lack of science and experience in your response. > And all that science was ignored during systemd architecture process > if there was any at all. For it to be claimed as "ignored", you need to know about the process; given that you don't even know its presence, such claim can't be made. --=20 With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : TomWij@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D --Sig_/4CmudV/SF=0HurXdTuX0UNx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTKxZDAAoJEPWZc8roOL/QfoAIAIPG81BmJfdkj6CKbOXJsx89 PzQiNTSOxKyVCXqKtgggylxIfSTqysL23su81NZkpOfkqLX5zqMc8LnpWyyJrLNy c13/JVCAV7ZLS9tdik4DtiSVPpfgg0eeJtNJlXadJ6q5oHQc1D7Ovri3u3fd9Xd0 +7v/YZij+xy0Y9QW5zNlxgfmeTbMJryAqrZGwxuOmQBalLUIfmorMnCLYiKcHUju EVBSscXl7I+5vyajg4/TebERTDTElWQHlbjU9zGeIFchJzNlzB0jh2zHRpE4Hkqc SUGuowJKR9jze2rTJ69cjSKa6ICh7veParpODuApzFy1DJ+oYeSeQFmUk2YTBQw= =eXPP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/4CmudV/SF=0HurXdTuX0UNx--