From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C885B138E66 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2014 23:12:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 75E41E0B0B; Sun, 23 Feb 2014 23:12:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wg0-f46.google.com (mail-wg0-f46.google.com [74.125.82.46]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41C7DE0AFC for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2014 23:12:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wg0-f46.google.com with SMTP id x13so4050555wgg.13 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2014 15:12:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:reply-to:to:subject:date:user-agent:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id; bh=Z6inl5war//eEh37eNRJJjWb0nCRnsXFPuqDYIuDpUY=; b=hhWFuNVld/a7UV5YSeB30HaHXGAShL6dAp5ETmFQQuXy2QTPaA2LjaWAT5KtVIp2yC a4ejntHCN4FeHmSVcUKPWaRuA8U1D4M+jIQQUbRcfd+Ck+R+NpUSKTLeN80mKdqsxFK6 L+wBdiAqOQMhU+E/xJkkoH3Ik19/v/7YbO4Af4sV+3kxPOliVo8Td9ovLSSj6t0IEvGA KfvqDxW3lUc66ihyC2nNmppRERmF7aPwZItrIr2OHxdv0ySvA3Q62GJ6qBj0FEZh/cZf 4pStZ5SHLitS/coad/gfKHmLnoNsGapKypKqG3qlXG1z0CJXUkTF0+DFCSEAvJy9bfPc 98NA== X-Received: by 10.194.174.4 with SMTP id bo4mr16453487wjc.62.1393197154986; Sun, 23 Feb 2014 15:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dell_xps.localnet (230.3.169.217.in-addr.arpa. [217.169.3.230]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id fh1sm18618979wib.11.2014.02.23.15.12.33 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 23 Feb 2014 15:12:33 -0800 (PST) From: Mick To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2014 23:12:02 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/3.10.17-gentoo; KDE/4.11.5; x86_64; ; ) References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <530A7700.4030809@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <530A7700.4030809@gmail.com> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1711948.kvam8TxHJi"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201402232312.18683.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> X-Archives-Salt: 3478c992-12c4-4b68-8539-87d402c78430 X-Archives-Hash: 717f98452766421b17e732e6ee393de7 --nextPart1711948.kvam8TxHJi Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday 23 Feb 2014 22:32:32 Alan McKinnon wrote: > On 23/02/2014 20:18, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: > > I don't think forking would attract much developers. Writing something > > new trying to follow "the*nix design principles", but being modern and > > with the same features (all of them optional, of course) of systemd > > will have more chances; although I think it will fail because most of > > the people that can code "better" actually like the systemd design, > > and would prefer to contribute to it. > >=20 > > And if you found enough of this mythical good-coders, good luck > > defining what it means "the*nix design principles". >=20 > I've been wondering about this concept of "the*nix design principles"... Well, I'm no authority on this since I can't code, but here's a starter for= =20 10: http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch01s06.html http://people.fas.harvard.edu/~lib113/reference/unix/co-unix4.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy > I've now concluded it's a myth, much like invisible pink unicorns. >=20 > Is it like the kernel? A huge monolithic chunk of code with support for > modules? I would think that although the kernel has grown over the years, it has not= =20 done so like systemd. You can still *not* build modules you don't need in= =20 your kernel. > Is it like X11? A huge monolithic chunk of code that has a bizarre build > system for years, and took something like 5 years of hard work to get it > modular? And is 20 years behind the times? And *still* requires devs to > jump through hoops to get a rendered image through a compositor and back > up the the GPU? The X11 devs saw the error of their ways and ended up breaking up the big=20 monolithic Xorg code and releasing it as a modular package since X11 7.0, i= f I=20 recall right. > Is it like perl? Support every possible way to do something if it > remotely makes sense to do it, no matter how bizarre the syntax? > Is it like python? Pick ONE way to do it and stick with it dammit! > Is it like php? Do whatever you feel like? > Is it like command line text processing tools that only do one narrow > thing well? [1] > Is it like bash? I can't find a decent description of how bash came to > be except it's like Vogons - wasn't designed and didn't evolve, it just > sort of ... congealed Designing a programming language is not exactly parallel with designing an = OS,=20 although similarities exist (e.g. re-use code where you can and don't re- invent the wheel). > Not to rain on anyone's parade, but there's a prize of 40 internets up > for the first person who can clearly and unambiguously define "Unix > design principles" with specificity so that it is globally applicable. The Unix design philosophy may not be globally applicable, but has served=20 Linux well over the years. Lennart has de facto introduced a different way= of=20 developing his Linux code, which to others and me seems more restrictive. = I=20 am not saying that his coding is poor (I'm not qualified to judge), or that= =20 systemd is wholesale bad. But, is this a whole new design paradigm in the= =20 development of Linux that we should applaud and follow, or just a mistake=20 borne out of ignorance/arrogance/expedience? Time will tell. > [1] For lack of a better term, let's just call systemd here a "system > controller". What is this ONE thing a system controller should do and do > it well? =2D-=20 Regards, Mick --nextPart1711948.kvam8TxHJi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAABAgAGBQJTCoBSAAoJELAdA+zwE4Ye4tsIALtW0QgV8H01AhJ+fgV4FtWJ Hx19efWejZBo4gOLvQp5OO8pHvx4uFEi8fNjg/O9gOlwqLNAOKAT+tkjV0mpReut glYWED7ju1llTq/BANDrpKcyJObRDfqzJ1Y9ufcW56kVxVK9pnvqe867AEeSW73A y5+mjegdvG0K+LA7q5bKyPvpPAbqbSf7KWiUHL3ZmUFFYOmSndKz4GFlpFlpjyTB 4zJn60GkAYIwxtTh7kd6HflFa3xFXd5pH7b1zh0SQYJWaoyniBvotMtRtbfynQ2U jvgUv0pqnfNprnWrOmSHCaxliEeOTDjAUNeLVz4khQoG5ehw+eEN05vfUQpc5es= =WsB4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1711948.kvam8TxHJi--