From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76ED138E66 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2014 13:35:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F275EE0A8E; Sun, 23 Feb 2014 13:35:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5481E0A83 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2014 13:35:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id hi5so2187471wib.14 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2014 05:35:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:reply-to:to:subject:date:user-agent:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id; bh=Hv9xhuSPrOnVm/sY5/IEaVIP27jiDiKTvi6T9medOyg=; b=xaD9QSvm5Un0k4Td+KIPrjIEmZ4S8NR/+uDypEZKwwSO0nMbABpDDOodTrhlFNa1G5 vbo8wU4V0KM9b8djrZolYCRssx4DXPlVjV34kdDEgr8/GPcXhxvSx0us7tK+JtHWLzXe fCk27vk2FViYqh95z/yr9i6oOYYwnIcesG4AkqU82gI0rHgZV1/b2LOL7zp3S/7tqPJd fJEuiqO3OB4UyW3WJh3sk6QtwZDKWwyy6GCp7lzUdd8X+g3IEJWmCQ2/yfG0jaaHe9uj O4Lb8oLbSkf8M6xIwKyNFYgqtyiqnUg4mEhO9hPFsuNT/Ou4u10r+kXI7KUilL+fN9I2 ThTw== X-Received: by 10.194.161.136 with SMTP id xs8mr14468007wjb.56.1393162548974; Sun, 23 Feb 2014 05:35:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dell_xps.localnet (230.3.169.217.in-addr.arpa. [217.169.3.230]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f1sm15046010wik.1.2014.02.23.05.35.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 23 Feb 2014 05:35:47 -0800 (PST) From: Mick To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2014 13:35:22 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/3.10.17-gentoo; KDE/4.11.5; x86_64; ; ) References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <5301B3E1.3000007@yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <5301B3E1.3000007@yandex.ru> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1435974.Oplj3CVuSV"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201402231335.31992.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> X-Archives-Salt: a3b8926f-0b39-4d3d-ba79-5420fb6ec46e X-Archives-Hash: c98437834ebbc05540eddc76119c9baf --nextPart1435974.Oplj3CVuSV Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday 17 Feb 2014 07:01:53 Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: > 17.02.2014 00:19, Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=88=D0=B5= =D1=82: > > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff > > wrote: [ snip ] > >=20 > >> Isn't there too many "if you believe" and "if you agree"? A church of > >> systemd? ;) > >=20 > > As I said to Tanstaafl, it gets kind of philosophical. >=20 > Even religious. >=20 > > Technically, systemd is the obvious superior choice, and that's why > > the TC voted for it in Debian (read the discussion). >=20 > Oh I have read so many discussions already... :) > To me, systemd's technical superiority is far not obvious. Just another > init system would be, but as long as systemd is much more that one, I > can't say that. It should NOT be compared to OpenRC / upstart alone, > rather to a whole bunch of tools it replaces, and probably even those > it's ambitious to replace. >=20 > >> I wonder why all systemd's fancy stuff hasn't yet been integrated into > >> any existing init system, because of theoretical impossibility or just > >> practical uselessness? > >=20 > > If it's "practically useless", why so many distributions keep choosing > > it? Why GNOME started using it? >=20 > Well, I said that technical superiority matters little for maintainers; > what matters is money. If I'd write some super-puper fancy init system > and kernel replacement, who would be interested? It's not the time of > Linus' rise, now you don't deal with USENET freaks, but with Intel, > RedHat and other billionaire corps. Do you have the guts and means to > keep up with competitors, even not about kernel/init subsystems, but a > user app like mailer/browser/messenger... > A kernel subsystem requires much more technical competence to maintain > and is far more critical for functioning, so much more important here is > not any 'technical superiority' but simply resources, human and > financial, spared if using RH-maintained systemd. >=20 > >> Actually why not do the daemon management, logging, cron etc in the > >> Linux kernel itself? It's obvious, and we even have a perfect example > >> of kernel-integrated graphics around -- `guess the OS name`. It also > >> has much in common with systemd; "Believe us it's the best OS", > >> "Believe us it provides loads of features", "Agree with having binary > >> logs" etc. > >=20 > > All the software is libre; with only that any comparison to Microsoft > > becomes moot. >=20 > Once you mentioned "technical superiority", let's compare other stuff > technically too. :) >=20 > >> A competent approach for choosing software for a task is answering the > >> questions: > >> 1. Is the software standards-compliant? > >> 2. Does the software have an alternative compatible implementation? > >> 3. Is the software developed to achieve a certain, concrete goal? > >> 4. Does the software achieve the goal? > >> 5. Does the software achieve the goal "gracefully"? > >> 6. Does the software have a clear perspective and view what it will be > >> like? 7. Is the software developed and maintained by a reliable company > >> or group? > >=20 > > That's *your* approach. It's certainly not my approach: I don't care > > if Emacs is "standards-compliant" (whatever that means for a text > > editor); I don't care if Inkscape has an alternative compatible > > implementation; and for the rest of your questions, my answer would be > > yes. >=20 > You don't care about Emacs and Inkscape but do you care the same nought > about e.g. /bin/cp, /bin/mv etc? Do you care that your browser talks > HTTP rather than SHiTP? Do you care that once after a couple of years > your systems get unmaintained and unmaintainable because the software on > them becomes a load of bashed up crap which only a world's head lennart > can deal with? Well, you'll say that red hat tralala, but we've seen the > rise and fall of many giants e.g. Sun with their once 'technically > superior' Solaris and SPARCs, well one can name many I just don't have > time, also we seen MySQL bought by Oracle, and all. > Nothing is eternal, and it's (Again!) quite not always technical matters > that matters. >=20 > >> AFAICT, with systemd there's by far one "yes". The other answers are > >> dubious if just plain "no". > >>=20 > > From your point of view. > > =20 > >> I'd personally share Alan McKinnon's POV: there's no real reason to > >> switch to systemd since the present init systems serve pretty well and > >> the benefit, if any, isn't worth the adaptation threshold. > >=20 > > That's fine; you don't have to use systemd. But if (as an extreme and > > unlikely example), Gentoo decided to switch exclusively to systemd, > > then either someone willing and able would need to come out ant start > > maintaining the alternatives, or then you should do it. >=20 > At present, no. But the trend is clear. >=20 > > That's how free software works. >=20 > Actually, free software (one you don't pay for) works like any other > software you pay for. You probably wanted to say "that's how the OSS > model works" but it's getting less and less true. The OSS model in many > cases retains only its open source. Take MySQL, take KDE, take GNOME. > Who cares about users? We do what we deem feasible regardless if you > like it or not. Don't like it? C'mon, fork, it's free. C'mon, it's > technically superior. C'mon, who are you? An admin? A programmer? A > Bachelor/PhD? Ha, man, we're BILLIONAIRES. That says it. We GRANT you > our software AS IS. And its source. And its bugtrackers. We make > business by the fact that we have millions of free testers 'round the > world. We can afford that. If you can afford forking and maintaining, > c'mon man. >=20 > >> But why then is Linux drifting to systemd? The answer is simple: money. > >> Time is money. You have to support two init systems -> twice the time, > >> twice the money. Sooner or later, a sum of money will outweigh the > >> users' opinion. To be a realist, one has to admit that in near future > >> 90% of new distro versions will be systemd-based. Unless some green > >> soxx emerge and take over Red Hat... > >=20 > > I don't think neither time nor money had to do with Debian's (nor > > Arch's, nor OpenSuse's, nor Maegia's, nor Sabayon's) decision. >=20 > It's not in terms "think" or "don't think". It's a fact. >=20 > > It's just technically superior. But's that's just my opinion, and what > > I believe ;) >=20 > That's a good thing to believe in. It's hard to prove, hard to see, > impossible to test all cases. > Money is what you don't believe in. You either have it enough or not. >=20 > > So, amen? :D >=20 > Amen. :D >=20 > > Regards. I am not sure if people object to the Lennart-way of messing up Linux, unde= r=20 the blessings of RHL, or if they just don't like the immediate outcome. Essentially, in his arrogance Lennart only needs to code things the way *he= *=20 sees as useful or expedient to him and his pay masters. In doing so he thr= ows=20 the *nix way of developing software out of the window and creates a conveni= ent=20 for him monolith. Wherever he can't be bothered to do a neat and versatile= =20 job he makes his own arguably option-limiting decisions and thus we have=20 arrived to today's flavour of systemd-udev-pulseaudio-gnome and whatever el= se=20 he will try to weld in tomorrow. He found like minds in Sievers et al and= =20 money from RHL helped them get there. It ain't pretty and architecturally does not follow the *nix design=20 principles, but as Canek says, those who can code better should step up to = the=20 plate and redesign systemd as it should have been done from the start for t= he=20 benefit of Linux, without making the design compromises that Lennart has=20 decided suit him. I don't know if forking systemd is easy, but no one has = so=20 far decided to do so. Given the title of this thread I fear that those of us who can't code, will= =20 increasingly find our choices becoming limited, because more and more=20 functionality is hacked inextricably into systemd and friends. It's probab= ly=20 too early to call if Gentoo will remain one of the few options in Linux tha= t=20 do not use systemd, but decisions taken upstream (for example initrd for=20 separate /usr) are affecting some us already. =2D-=20 Regards, Mick --nextPart1435974.Oplj3CVuSV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAABAgAGBQJTCfkjAAoJELAdA+zwE4Ye2lkIAKZeU9waHPFZuhBOXdN3EZAs RlAc11MdD51vxXCCnoJ92xsIDU5aMuOwvqtcq2CvwJrFiDkOpvjAz4BRSO0DM7/K 4ewJ7SJojbsxsKSxusTLsJbP1dQPNYZeZPk+e7A0UNHYBaKPCRgd7s2Yl4j+Nkps E3rtBZjxLYLMpRUy8nWSnRfO4Jk/+Akm9N7DVTyHB/fc7pE8rhcUDZu9e38wpXzX 2+pfBHAE5Fer1k6mCwkfAWKbhLFhVPC7w5ftYJSJhl3KH4K9f78dW8Q0W8XgNWOo TQpq4dMmnIlD+TM+bLInpGEr8Hv/FUPAiAOF+KEbPYT5TCCVaBWjHVZkD3yfxEY= =jXY7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1435974.Oplj3CVuSV--