From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291C6138E20 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:13:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D621EE0C39; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:13:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lb0-f169.google.com (mail-lb0-f169.google.com [209.85.217.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84B9EE0B3B for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:13:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lb0-f169.google.com with SMTP id q8so226591lbi.14 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 04:13:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type; bh=dKdwIM1V0Ivcd9MTg/AeEUGLtNyOeWu+YCTZ6NPPHQc=; b=s8yYOPCX61Adb9SabaIuwC+NvdTscFsaLkXtaDmli+SaE340IrN8mS3sYLdJPdvxeJ mtvSBGiygzokfOGQh4IYVQtkws9Ks3xNDOyt27DMGNKMUvUr+fNGTQ3ZO8Uqtg4Iu7a8 qZzgYrLdPs9URkrSI+PJqvSnVbbcg71nJfq644i7gZY1C7hTHwj+gEVQV6S3Ixht7i0/ 6h1/Rg8afPBypKQk+48/TbZQ+zlR2jxPP6eXFWxYjY7WUTQ8U+XA0wk5khVKyYEkNFcw eCshxyNNCsFbKdoA9+xFK4Rv0b4PNhFaDAMTlUT/KLxx5avwO7NaNhE6LBxh/tyrqDxw E+6Q== X-Received: by 10.112.66.168 with SMTP id g8mr276995lbt.91.1392812006543; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 04:13:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([198.46.152.80]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id rt7sm25772lbb.0.2014.02.19.04.13.23 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Feb 2014 04:13:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:13:05 +0400 From: Andrew Savchenko To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie Message-Id: <20140219161305.3699dd63681d12fcadd3cc47@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5304853F.60402@thegeezer.net> References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <5300DD51.5060207@libertytrek.org> <53010A8E.2050909@googlemail.com> <53012691.6040503@googlemail.com> <20140217215255.5766cb026df2f0b8002f8702@gmail.com> <5302c048.462f0e0a.3d3e.5888@mx.google.com> <20140218210633.d25f4bb88b3891f7c0ed11c6@gmail.com> <20140218220712.9ec8d2529ef49d743b3bc826@gmail.com> <5304576E.4000704@sporkbox.us> <530474ac.8723700a.7e72.4d4a@mx.google.com> <5304853F.60402@thegeezer.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.3.0 (GTK+ 2.24.22; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA512"; boundary="Signature=_Wed__19_Feb_2014_16_13_05_+0400_El9tC=NVh7I2UZ8o" X-Archives-Salt: f0dce4e4-5f52-450e-8da4-ed71a7d0b0b7 X-Archives-Hash: ce49ad815b0ef814e3d261efd5a76a51 --Signature=_Wed__19_Feb_2014_16_13_05_+0400_El9tC=NVh7I2UZ8o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 10:19:43 +0000 thegeezer wrote: [...] > >> For all this talk about technical details, > >> nobody seems to notice the marketing > > A few people including myself have noted it earlier. > > > >> that's going on and frankly it disgusts me. > > And me too. > > > > > I have to confess that it does feel very evangelistic the approach from > folks pushing systemd. perhaps it is just because for some it has been > four years of looking at new ways of doing things, whilst others are > just realising now how different it is. > I saw an interesting blog post [1] that basically tried to convince > directly gentoo devs. > it was interesting because of this comment: >=20 > > " > *Simon* > September 26, 2013 at 2:58 am > >=20 >=20 > Yes, I think you=E2=80=99re dead on, there. It=E2=80=99s not that Gnome d= epends on > systemd =E2=80=93 but it=E2=80=99s increasingly dependent on features tha= t are only > provided by systemd. The example of OpenRC not behaving according to > GDM=E2=80=99s assumptions is a perfect illustration of that. It=E2=80=99s= dependent not > on systemd, but on something that for practical purposes is > indistinguishable from systemd > " > It looks like systemd PR agents put it quite simple: my way or the highway. And it looks like Gentoo is the last major shelter for freedom we have. =20 > the difficulty is that without knowing what features are required but > assumed to be there it becomes very difficult to build something the has > the API that logind or others might be requiring. an update of gnome > might require a new feature that is hot off the presses, and until it > breaks an openrc-logind system no one is aware of that requirement. the > API does seem to be online [2], albeit updated 30days ago; i can't > comment if this is up to date enough or not. >=20 > I think the argument on the blog page is a bit disingenuous too - > essentially implying that if you want gnome then you must have logind, > and if you want logind you must supply the features supplied by systemd: > but to get a list of the features required is _your_ problem: go through > the gnome source code to find out. > these kinds of things are what folks are taking umbrage against.=20 >=20 > I'm also a little confused over the socket matrix feature. I think it's > very clever to be negotiating and buffering socket and mounts to > services that need them, but I haven't seen a good technical argument as > to why this is required. From my perspective i see it as xinet.d for > unix sockets and well, is anyone using xinet.d on a production server? =20 > Hopefuly someone can enlighten me? also what happens if the socket > arbitrator dies ? 1. We never use xinetd on either production systems or desktops/laptops. The only legitimate setup with xinetd I can recall is CVS server. Though the very CVS technology is obsolete this days (yes, I know portage tree is still using it and I'm looking forward for git migration). Socket activation feature is dubious at least. It looks like nobody from its developers cared to assume that services may start not as fast as they expect (e.g. network issues with cisco switches being too slow to answer dhcp which may take up to several minutes). That's why socket activation is extremely dangerous: it may cause services to fail _on_ start. Some may just crash and will be restarted (though not all services may be restarted after crash without manual interaction, e.g. some DB setups may fail badly), while other may loose some functionality and continue to work. Best regards, Andrew Savchenko --Signature=_Wed__19_Feb_2014_16_13_05_+0400_El9tC=NVh7I2UZ8o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJTBJ/gAAoJEFZZU7lTcnVsM7gQAIfZxfg7S0mzqyjYPyVju3Lh A/PZjZ26G6hzgNzRUf+OYv5SlXOxxbappxvg2ZQuMwHHBy56mLbNuo9A6uNTNINE euHzOqL4a+dtgaR6ugKwVCP6m99WO92/ZITLxl2i5DnW4MFJOciQlzUMNQz0ULsi zwEVLnIlQ/8zJIje23w/XX10QCB9KBrwoDG24GOePKukWc7BWROp3T+NR28RAbrP p5o0qE6YxOVs3usKQ1f6kDifslxPgV5WXkpovXga8Lf8mUyjNmDNBcLqARM3Akgk riIFmtIUpwDEW7Vqdh352uvzf8LbnAbdCwabZrf2DWO56xoymhIPz+WUcfKD/vlY hUxX9JBG6qCPbIuFtd8KzFF5GMo89vLFjDCOZIijj+MRBiwbO15NNc3iqH4bN8fE YQeJofqLQWtFnF/yi46Bjn4Ic6fVEy4VZOWVB/d1XOyVINMymS09pmco8FIaPKFE Jmdbn8xV4uuo2Ghw/cJ0wCreRquLjHrnx7KFrDwhZiXX9oiXX45zBsciTd20GtDI 0aRdyQHQ63FOxu6CUaEyG5PRazWmJV4IG42Jm8j0GFBk4r2KzQrwzeXQn2A3sUKk 9w/mNMUOYxguzrRVmZrZvGmr5NpyR4Ob4+7igI/UJ8A/PBemZPViAgs7gkVWfz/0 d3T7+sWl1rNQdXrtWGQe =6Mgp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Wed__19_Feb_2014_16_13_05_+0400_El9tC=NVh7I2UZ8o--