From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D538138BF3 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 17:07:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 88269E0CC4; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 17:06:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lb0-f174.google.com (mail-lb0-f174.google.com [209.85.217.174]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D69EE0CBA for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 17:06:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lb0-f174.google.com with SMTP id l4so12340653lbv.5 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 09:06:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type; bh=uwVVjBoUXFBucaEVPBWzoeFqAlXDvOSt2/Bz+F01a8A=; b=JuQjMLyCIfzpXdOUs/kD9i8HYz0xSAXzVGA6r0f/YPHpB273T8Yy+Rl0d1riNH2XZd Qrq8tKE0Sugfj+m2ToR1AuEeAb+/tm+FqwjtIjY89whU6LZC456sgUBLeMAWFMEQYS+w sjuZJGbNvMQU1L4tZLRAxo7TANQ541Zn2bEKMHXPX0/GbyCXsOKPV6ljC6UtF2Y3n7PS AG6c7xeUq0/OattK5YmqpWjrmqSCW+dYpaf/96OZJvM14fk34jP3TJ8qbFl//XJZfeGP vigbktE5bqvBLfGWr7YHgc1M6ma0xQ0WPgpbvBNqNLAsbpuRxQN1Xccu/hwhB/75i7Ro s3Lg== X-Received: by 10.152.22.102 with SMTP id c6mr22802065laf.27.1392743211581; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 09:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([85.143.114.129]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id k1sm24306449lbc.5.2014.02.18.09.06.49 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Feb 2014 09:06:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 21:06:33 +0400 From: Andrew Savchenko To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Cc: Canek =?UTF-8?B?UGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie Message-Id: <20140218210633.d25f4bb88b3891f7c0ed11c6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <52FF9D58.3000608@libertytrek.org> <201402152023.10543.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <5300DD51.5060207@libertytrek.org> <53010A8E.2050909@googlemail.com> <53012691.6040503@googlemail.com> <20140217215255.5766cb026df2f0b8002f8702@gmail.com> <5302c048.462f0e0a.3d3e.5888@mx.google.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.3.0 (GTK+ 2.24.18; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA512"; boundary="Signature=_Tue__18_Feb_2014_21_06_33_+0400_yKC47GyXbqtxPhU6" X-Archives-Salt: 70117edf-7b44-48ae-95f2-72aaef165966 X-Archives-Hash: b45c945f7c48396385b5f953be6d987a --Signature=_Tue__18_Feb_2014_21_06_33_+0400_yKC47GyXbqtxPhU6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 23:30:42 -0600 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: > On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Gevisz wrote: > [ snip ] > > How can you be sure if something is "large enough" if, as you say below, > > you do not care about probabilities? >=20 > By writing correct code? Real world code without mistakes and larger than "Hello, world!" exercises is not possible. Large systems must have error suppression and correction techniques, modular and replaceable design is one of them, KISS is another one. Systemd has none known to me. =20 > >> I don't care about probabilities; > > > > If you do not care (=3D do not now anything) about probabilities > > (and mathematics, in general), you just unable to understand > > that debugging a program with 200K lines of code take > > > > 200000!/(10000!)^20 > > > > more time than debugging of 20 different programs with 10K lines of > > code. You can try to calculate that number yourself but I quite sure > > that if the latter can take, say, 20 days, the former can take > > millions of years. > > > > It is all the probability! Or, to be more precise, combinatorics. >=20 > My PhD thesis (which I will defend in a few weeks) is in computer > science, specifically computational geometry and combinatorics. You're not the one here on the list with PhD (either defended or near its end). And argument "Listen to me! I'm PhD here!" looks miserable. Please stop this.=20 > >> I care about facts: FACT, I've been using systemd since 2010, > >> in several machines, and I haven't had a single segfault. > > > > Have you ever tried forex? If yes, you should have been warned > > that "no past performance guarantee the future one." >=20 > I never said that. I trust the quality of the code, measured by my own > judgment and bug reports, etc. Not past performance. >=20 > And even if a bug goes by, then what? The world will end? This depends on what bug at what component occurred. Just imagine pid 1 segfault on medical life support equipment. With systemd going into embedded this is not just pure speculation, though, of course medical stuff should have extra safeguards. But any FT or at least HA setup is a combination of multiple layers. I do not want to allow badly broken core component on mine setups even if its faults may be compensated by other means. Yet again, I respect ones right to use whatever one wants, but I ask to respect mine as well. That's why I propose a separate systemd profile for those willing to use it. > >> Sorry, but it's you who doesn't know the matter at hand: kdbus was > >> (and is) written by Greg Kroah-Hartman, Linus' right hand, and who > >> works for the Linux Foundation. > > > > Lol, he seems to start to use the arguments like "You even do not know > > my elder brother/acquaintance from the street nearby who can easily > > hit you down!" >=20 > If you don't think Greg's words have any weight in a Linux-related > technical discussion, then I'm afraid we will need to agree to > disagree on any technical subject. You know, common sense should always override person's prestige. History knows many examples. Sir Isaac Newton enforced corpuscular point of view on the light's nature. And while he was genius in other physical aspects, he was mistaken here. Albert Einstein was rejective to probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics and even proposed an entangled particles paradox as an example of its "flawed" nature. Though as we know these days such systems exist and are quite well used in numerous experiments. My point is simple: do not blindly adhere to someone's words, even if this person has high authority. Common sense must prevail. Period. Best regards, Andrew Savchenko --Signature=_Tue__18_Feb_2014_21_06_33_+0400_yKC47GyXbqtxPhU6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJTA5MoAAoJEFZZU7lTcnVsfWwQAKYG4ell65qAWWZ0IYbaU4U6 GCdmUzKDBxKFv9OsZGVKB3dmalu/nUCzKjmxKaedEwJgejl51vtNn2Y6Mze2KTAp 93CLrtsAkxG9TN83TLOp2rv5XVMExj3/eG7EMVz3k90SP+wIMmGjI2Nu2apuMe+l uFlZ8z/1QATAcL5rWcJ/0UioPQi5J/F9IKyDtqzKl/d/A614FSiYtJtSkuiBceeD YiLNZ0CH46bUvzi6z92Yrf6YdmqQ6+qpEopfjJsVNYwr9jP/KoGxG2G13a5Z5vaE ap4ItsJjR/Y/2LI3Sun+gUYfxAdX/TR9pKfT3GzeFOw7EBgHFgRhjabBBX7qe5/m i/SnMgOC1PFxM6m3SYAr3nDEY8XLbqVysFJ8BujJDJVbg09IhBQltHBgTSUVeW/1 EBguuw2QdTjYpRVXm4dTTbmZy03yZBEFWvbt5iPYUnGhNIW3kZb+Jie3NAAv5VP1 5v5WodTVYWjZ1ESChiHohgwfhvYc2GiQ8yral22vp2LzPbbRnh+bAUOL7BWoz3DX XjrAT+w2rA5EqwcY8SoG8ln2V23yS4SvU2IWkZABg3FPM8MhECQIOvNC39PeOLqM 18BWyf+geD8Z1BmNGCVbb6znpiB0w+ybdKtT7K+rc8/1jpWoypW53umamKLI6eiR S02iRsv96FHMYJudkcTM =HqHf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Tue__18_Feb_2014_21_06_33_+0400_yKC47GyXbqtxPhU6--