[gentoo-user] systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[gentoo-user] systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[Tanstaafl]

Hi all,

Ok, before I go and open up a bug requesting this...

I know there have to be a lot of people on this list who can answer 
this question...

Is making the use of systemd or not based on a selected Profile, as 
opposed to manually trying to do it via USE flags etc, a practical 
request, or not?

Meaning:

1. is it doable,

2. how hard (on a scale of 1/easy to 10/hard to impossible) would it
    be to do this, and

3. regardless of the difficulty in achieving it, how hard would it be
    (on a scale of 1 (easy) to 10 (hard to impossible)) to maintain in
    the long run?

I'm hoping that even if the answer to #2 above is 7+, if the answer to 
#3 is 'relatively easy' or better, then maybe it still stands a chance 
of getting done.

And incidentally, Canek, if I was a programmer, I'd be happy to 
volunteer to take it on, but alas I'm just a lowly user...

Thanks...

[gentoo-user] Re: systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[eroen]

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On Tue, 18 Feb 2014 11:24:05 -0500, Tanstaafl
<tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Ok, before I go and open up a bug requesting this...
> 
> I know there have to be a lot of people on this list who can answer 
> this question...
> 
> Is making the use of systemd or not based on a selected Profile, as 
> opposed to manually trying to do it via USE flags etc, a practical 
> request, or not?
> 

How is this different from the status quo? There are several systemd
profiles available that make use of the files
in /usr/portage/profiles/targets/systemd/ to make the proper package
settings for using systemd on gentoo. AFAIU, a user should only need to
switch the profile, install and configure systemd itself and configure
their bootloader to start using systemd.

-- 
eroen

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[Tanstaafl]

On 2014-02-18 11:39 AM, eroen <eroen@falcon.eroen.eu> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Feb 2014 11:24:05 -0500, Tanstaafl
> <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Ok, before I go and open up a bug requesting this...
>>
>> I know there have to be a lot of people on this list who can answer
>> this question...
>>
>> Is making the use of systemd or not based on a selected Profile, as
>> opposed to manually trying to do it via USE flags etc, a practical
>> request, or not?

> How is this different from the status quo? There are several systemd
> profiles available that make use of the files
> in /usr/portage/profiles/targets/systemd/ to make the proper package
> settings for using systemd on gentoo. AFAIU, a user should only need to
> switch the profile, install and configure systemd itself and configure
> their bootloader to start using systemd.

Interesting! I guess it's been a while since I looked at the available 
profiles, because I don't remember seeing those:

  # eselect profile list
Available profile symlink targets:
   [1]   default/linux/amd64/13.0 *
   [2]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/selinux
   [3]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop
   [4]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome
   [5]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome/systemd
   [6]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde
   [7]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde/systemd
   [8]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/developer
   [9]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/no-multilib
   [10]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/x32
   [11]  hardened/linux/amd64
   [12]  hardened/linux/amd64/selinux
   [13]  hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
   [14]  hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib/selinux
   [15]  hardened/linux/amd64/x32
   [16]  hardened/linux/uclibc/amd64

So, does this mean we will eventually have systemd choices for *all*? Ie:

  # eselect profile list
Available profile symlink targets:
   [1]   default/linux/amd64/13.0 *
   [1]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/systemd
   [2]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/selinux
   [1]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/selinux/systemd

etc?

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Ok, before I go and open up a bug requesting this...
>
> I know there have to be a lot of people on this list who can answer this
> question...
>
> Is making the use of systemd or not based on a selected Profile, as opposed
> to manually trying to do it via USE flags etc, a practical request, or not?
>
> Meaning:
>
> 1. is it doable,

Of course it is.

> 2. how hard (on a scale of 1/easy to 10/hard to impossible) would it
>    be to do this, and

Well, doing it I think it's easy.

> 3. regardless of the difficulty in achieving it, how hard would it be
>    (on a scale of 1 (easy) to 10 (hard to impossible)) to maintain in
>    the long run?

That's the pickle, isn't? Forget about how "hard" it is.

The problem, as I see it, is that this systemd profile is being pushed
by the people that *don't* want to use systemd, because they want it
restricted to a separated profile so their machines are not "tainted"
by systemd.

If it was the other way around (systemd users wanting a systemd
profile), there would be no problem, since they would happily do the
job. But as it is it makes no sense; if you want to maintain a systemd
profile, you need to *use* systemd to do the testing and supporting.
Are the people that don't want to use systemd, will use systemd to
test and support a profile so they don't need to use systemd? Really?

(And never mind that more and more packages in the stack will want to
use systemd's features, and some of them probably will not work, or
work with limited functionality, without said features. And a profile
is not going to change that.)

That being said, the GNOME team introduced a gnome/systemd profile
(and later the KDE team did the same). I've never saw the point in
doing that, but that's what they decided and is fine.

If the Gentoo developers that use and prefer systemd decide to create
a systemd profile, then it will (easily, I think) happen.

But it's the systemd users the ones you should convince to do it; not
anyone *not* using it or avoiding it.

> I'm hoping that even if the answer to #2 above is 7+, if the answer to #3 is
> 'relatively easy' or better, then maybe it still stands a chance of getting
> done.

The possibility exists, sure. You can talk to Michał and the other
members of the systemd project in Gentoo. If you convince them that it
is a good idea (and good for systemd, obviously), they will do it.

But anyone that wants to help this happen will need to use systemd to
support a systemd profile. That's simple logic.

> And incidentally, Canek, if I was a programmer, I'd be happy to volunteer to
> take it on, but alas I'm just a lowly user...

I would, but I don't think is worth it. It's not an unreasonable idea,
but I think it will make thinks muddy when someone chooses the "not
systemd" profile, and they will discover that anyhow they need systemd
to run a lot of things.

And, I repeat, usually when someone pushes for an X profile, it's
because they want to use X. In this case you are asking for an X
profile so you don't need to even see X; it makes no sense, since the
X profiles needs the people maintaining it to use X.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[Simon László]

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How to unsubscribe?
2014.02.18. 17:26 ezt írta ("Tanstaafl" <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org>):

> Hi all,
>
> Ok, before I go and open up a bug requesting this...
>
> I know there have to be a lot of people on this list who can answer this
> question...
>
> Is making the use of systemd or not based on a selected Profile, as
> opposed to manually trying to do it via USE flags etc, a practical request,
> or not?
>
> Meaning:
>
> 1. is it doable,
>
> 2. how hard (on a scale of 1/easy to 10/hard to impossible) would it
>    be to do this, and
>
> 3. regardless of the difficulty in achieving it, how hard would it be
>    (on a scale of 1 (easy) to 10 (hard to impossible)) to maintain in
>    the long run?
>
> I'm hoping that even if the answer to #2 above is 7+, if the answer to #3
> is 'relatively easy' or better, then maybe it still stands a chance of
> getting done.
>
> And incidentally, Canek, if I was a programmer, I'd be happy to volunteer
> to take it on, but alas I'm just a lowly user...
>
> Thanks...
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[Yohan Pereira]

Burst out laughing reading this mail after reading this thread and the
other systemd one.
 Anyways you'll find instructions here http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:39 PM, Simon László
<wingtsun.miskolc@gmail.com> wrote:
> How to unsubscribe?
>
> 2014.02.18. 17:26 ezt írta ("Tanstaafl" <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org>):
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Ok, before I go and open up a bug requesting this...
>>
>> I know there have to be a lot of people on this list who can answer this
>> question...
>>
>> Is making the use of systemd or not based on a selected Profile, as
>> opposed to manually trying to do it via USE flags etc, a practical request,
>> or not?
>>
>> Meaning:
>>
>> 1. is it doable,
>>
>> 2. how hard (on a scale of 1/easy to 10/hard to impossible) would it
>>    be to do this, and
>>
>> 3. regardless of the difficulty in achieving it, how hard would it be
>>    (on a scale of 1 (easy) to 10 (hard to impossible)) to maintain in
>>    the long run?
>>
>> I'm hoping that even if the answer to #2 above is 7+, if the answer to #3
>> is 'relatively easy' or better, then maybe it still stands a chance of
>> getting done.
>>
>> And incidentally, Canek, if I was a programmer, I'd be happy to volunteer
>> to take it on, but alas I'm just a lowly user...
>>
>> Thanks...
>>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[Nilesh Govindrajan]

On Tuesday 18 February 2014 10:46 PM, Yohan Pereira wrote:
> Burst out laughing reading this mail after reading this thread and the
> other systemd one.
>  Anyways you'll find instructions here http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml.
> 

Don't you like jokers? ;-)
No offense, but RTFM!

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[Nilesh Govindrajan]

On Tuesday 18 February 2014 09:54 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Ok, before I go and open up a bug requesting this...
> 
> I know there have to be a lot of people on this list who can answer this
> question...
> 
> Is making the use of systemd or not based on a selected Profile, as
> opposed to manually trying to do it via USE flags etc, a practical
> request, or not?
> 
> Meaning:
> 
> 1. is it doable,
> 

Yes.

> 2. how hard (on a scale of 1/easy to 10/hard to impossible) would it
>    be to do this, and
> 

Peanuts.

> 3. regardless of the difficulty in achieving it, how hard would it be
>    (on a scale of 1 (easy) to 10 (hard to impossible)) to maintain in
>    the long run?
> 

I don't think this is difficult. I've been using gnome/systemd since > 1
month & I have a Gentoo server which uses systemd as well.

> I'm hoping that even if the answer to #2 above is 7+, if the answer to
> #3 is 'relatively easy' or better, then maybe it still stands a chance
> of getting done.
> 
> And incidentally, Canek, if I was a programmer, I'd be happy to
> volunteer to take it on, but alas I'm just a lowly user...
> 
> Thanks...
> 

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[Andreas K. Huettel]

Am Dienstag 18 Februar 2014, 11:24:05 schrieb Tanstaafl:
> 
> Is making the use of systemd or not based on a selected Profile, as
> opposed to manually trying to do it via USE flags etc, a practical
> request, or not?
> 

Have a look at the files in profiles/targets/systemd/

http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/targets/systemd/

That's all that is different in the systemd subprofiles. Easy to do manually.

-- 
Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer
kde, council

Re: [gentoo-user] systemd as a Profile - practical or not?

[Alan McKinnon]

On 18/02/2014 18:24, Tanstaafl wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Ok, before I go and open up a bug requesting this...
> 
> I know there have to be a lot of people on this list who can answer this
> question...
> 
> Is making the use of systemd or not based on a selected Profile, as
> opposed to manually trying to do it via USE flags etc, a practical
> request, or not?
> 
> Meaning:
> 
> 1. is it doable,
> 
> 2. how hard (on a scale of 1/easy to 10/hard to impossible) would it
>    be to do this, and
> 
> 3. regardless of the difficulty in achieving it, how hard would it be
>    (on a scale of 1 (easy) to 10 (hard to impossible)) to maintain in
>    the long run?
> 
> I'm hoping that even if the answer to #2 above is 7+, if the answer to
> #3 is 'relatively easy' or better, then maybe it still stands a chance
> of getting done.
> 
> And incidentally, Canek, if I was a programmer, I'd be happy to
> volunteer to take it on, but alas I'm just a lowly user...

Didn't we discuss this very question a few months back? (it might have
been on -dev though)

I recall a distinct sticking point being the immediate doubling of
number of profiles - you'd need as many as there are no, doubled. 1 for
a systemd version, 1 for a non-systemd version

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com