From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF721138BF3 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 11:35:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DACCE0C26; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 11:35:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lb0-f179.google.com (mail-lb0-f179.google.com [209.85.217.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1ED0FE0C08 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 11:35:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lb0-f179.google.com with SMTP id l4so12285527lbv.10 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 03:35:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type; bh=PAF/gZzL4PgNvsS6/vy/AeE/wC8sMwCvWeOt8ZH2V8c=; b=Y0bVjPFY1c1gW8FL31S5uJiV4daurLiLRmYeHw80//2JfGMdf7VfHIptJEEOIrOizS /1XMAzznEHUPvKZj19CkXjw6q1FsYa+SFVQubaCymA0ujzCFx4KQXpM8FfODPbURwnQA 2iiscahU9ci0Za/0yRHrRj8R53CJFNWiIImR8EGyI+T3Y7i6/bvE0XidGFI4tMIEP6kX cmp+CFd+FJk/RTtZXgsVPFtAr71IAHvVDc7lzRcvQXpE3zIQX3P6yM7ok9Baw233xN9Y 2jWc1/vVqmCoJZH1hiDWkWVFyrmdBN/dfPQLVcx/WeRNFfIAVZyy9+eYlqByBqbEEH6y +oDQ== X-Received: by 10.152.120.37 with SMTP id kz5mr21659527lab.30.1392723337422; Tue, 18 Feb 2014 03:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([198.46.152.80]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ri4sm23282227lbb.6.2014.02.18.03.35.34 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Feb 2014 03:35:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 15:35:19 +0400 From: Andrew Savchenko To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie Message-Id: <20140218153519.ac92e6f3bafdc75519e9f0d2@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <53010ADB.2070708@yandex.ru> <201402161926.17796.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <5301FDF0.6000408@libertytrek.org> <530254DA.4070306@yandex.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.3.0 (GTK+ 2.24.22; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA512"; boundary="Signature=_Tue__18_Feb_2014_15_35_19_+0400_o4YF0ebmNvM2gBn5" X-Archives-Salt: 5eb21616-4a75-4c6d-9ddc-9f19a4228e86 X-Archives-Hash: 2cfc1a1cb7e9579cb3ef7a6c27706a19 --Signature=_Tue__18_Feb_2014_15_35_19_+0400_o4YF0ebmNvM2gBn5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 19:09:40 -0600 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: > > How Integrated? The TCP/IP stack *is* integrated. But it is *protocol* > > integration, *standards* integration not *software* integration. You do= want > > tight integration where it just can't work otherwise, but the design of= Unix > > provides (well, again repeating this), and almost any robust design sho= uld > > provide, the ignorance of one abstraction level about another. Why HAL?= Why > > udev? Why drivers as modules? Why not just go and integrate all stuff i= nto > > the kernel, well (again!) like MS do, and don't please say I compare wr= ong > > things just because MS is not OSS. >=20 > You make a wrong comparison, because MS is not free (libre) software. > With Linux, and systemd, and OpenRC, and HAL, and devfs, and sysv, we > have been able to try new technologies (and see that some of them > fail, like HAL [yuck!]), because we have the source. But the comparison is quite right. When one have to deal with software lock-in, this means that one have to fork a huge stack of software which is theoretically doable (because software is free), but is impractical unless one owns a corporation with large number of full time paid developers. The same way one in theory can change everything in MS by changing assembler code of their software. Well, this will require some time, but asm is nothing more than low-level programming language, thus formally one have "the sources". The key feature here is deliberate and malicious lock-in: as long as software enforces one, it is non-free in practical terms. > As you said, you can replace the whole of Linux if you so desire (and > have the technical ability). >=20 > You will never be able to do that with any MS software, and so the > comparison makes no sense. Hey, but people are already doing this! Google for ReactOS or Wine. > The thing (and that's also my point), apparently *most* of the people > willing and able to create cool software have decided that systemd is > the way to go. And, even if you want to attribute that to a simple > monetary issue, most of them do it *happily* because many things are > just easier to do with systemd. Most people should never care what init system is in charge while writing end-user software. If software (e.g. some daemon) depends on specific init system, it is broken by design. =20 > > They'll be able to > > stuff everything into it, making effectively a thing in itself which wi= ll > > dictate you where to go and what to do, just because you're not technic= ally > > competent enough to deal with it -- hence more support calls and more $= etc > > etc. >=20 > Oh, but nobody will be able to do that to me. I know how to write > code. I'm willing (and I believe able) to write and/or modify software > if I don't like how it does things. I've done it before; I could do it > again. Even if you have superior and outstanding programming skills I doubt you have time and resources to rewrite the whole software stack (e.g. systemd and everything depending on it) yourself. > >> If *someone*, *willing* AND *able* steps up to do ALL that work, MAYBE > >> it would happen. > >> > >> But don't complain if no one does, and it doesn't. > > > > > > That's your point -- and mine. We aren't complaining -- we want to prev= ent > > this. >=20 > Prevent what? People writing new software that offers cool features, > and therefore distros are using them? Prevent loosing our freedom in practical sense: while the software will be still free in FSF license terms, it will be so locked onto itself that it will be eventually impossible for anyone besides large corporations to replace it. Thus in the end we'll be dictated what to do and how to do. > > The forward-looking people must unite, it may sound ridiculous, > > against systemd >=20 > You cannot stop people for writing new cool stuff, nor distros for > wanting to using them. You CAN write your own cool stuff, and > convincing people that is better than the alternative. And you can't force people to use your cool stuff because you're assuming it is cool. That's called freedom, freedom of choice. That is what I love Gentoo for. That's why I support systemd profile propose. That's why I will do my best to protect this freedom in our community. > > You know what it is: everything's free but nothing to choose from. We h= ad it > > before, it's called communism. Maybe it is not that bad but we don't wa= nt it > > anymore. >=20 > (Really? A cold war reference?) Yes, we have a software^Wcorporation war right upon us. =20 Best regards, Andrew Savchenko --Signature=_Tue__18_Feb_2014_15_35_19_+0400_o4YF0ebmNvM2gBn5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQIbBAEBCgAGBQJTA0WDAAoJEFZZU7lTcnVsmb8P+NWMnVpyXx8iQmNcfhHilxt/ ev9+7a3XwODgYfFFQeTF3tRjrnxdmGyw7Pj68/PcfuVg0LiGCL/Vl5D2sVokHsje 27hSCScPphhTcGOjFKGa1OvRJ2XqkFABQSFSG/nthwmoKJ6imsRufn1Icd/tySqG 3dG4WsYCw8XnkJji3Lyw0tEg/NFI87/TZ5FPWl2DClsfFi6LN5oPMfjdFaUf4IkZ LqlUtOCRnjgDlfOA6or8gYFMUW5pGAegoo8pBV3VV1OMVEusEmGPqdYB0aRZCFcq nTWiGhDFC0vBUXoHy2U9eiwMUDlaW0A6BcCyc6GA2TWITEMg2m5JaDjAgRj7/Fu6 +rc/bOOF1xEo+xWmWLCVSeqMmALyREB3jsrwBFo6GW/LJBIDs+1WKXTHqEe/glum A9kJCCpnQbuVPyZHEFrnVy5aZNr3USV1RyZvJGF2ZLwkGcBeXtCMN3owOMv09eeJ i1ftRrDp4l2MUre29USIWC9cYwENLetaQpDIlZPhBhaX4IyYsxrj7LOdN6Y1ennR 6Dpx4+IqElmuZ+Ki08ijI1v04O+a9DEL/dohwDjsYsC3NEFelhYuEHk3gcAj/aXs 1D+4Skuwt/5aEvWZ8wiNA1YiPkW2EJYO7EKNyNtpc42j2oeOeiWOwDYEjVGxFWWj +GjgtWa8OUy9p8Lc+y4= =mjvD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Tue__18_Feb_2014_15_35_19_+0400_o4YF0ebmNvM2gBn5--