Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie

[Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gmail.com>]

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On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 19:09:40 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> > How Integrated? The TCP/IP stack *is* integrated. But it is *protocol*
> > integration, *standards* integration not *software* integration. You do want
> > tight integration where it just can't work otherwise, but the design of Unix
> > provides (well, again repeating this), and almost any robust design should
> > provide, the ignorance of one abstraction level about another. Why HAL? Why
> > udev? Why drivers as modules? Why not just go and integrate all stuff into
> > the kernel, well (again!) like MS do, and don't please say I compare wrong
> > things just because MS is not OSS.
> 
> You make a wrong comparison, because MS is not free (libre) software.
> With Linux, and systemd, and OpenRC, and HAL, and devfs, and sysv, we
> have been able to try new technologies (and see that some of them
> fail, like HAL [yuck!]), because we have the source.

But the comparison is quite right. When one have to deal with software
lock-in, this means that one have to fork a huge stack of software
which is theoretically doable (because software is free), but is
impractical unless one owns a corporation with large number of full
time paid developers. The same way one in theory can change everything
in MS by changing assembler code of their software. Well, this will
require some time, but asm is nothing more than low-level programming
language, thus formally one have "the sources".

The key feature here is deliberate and malicious lock-in: as long as
software enforces one, it is non-free in practical terms.

> As you said, you can replace the whole of Linux if you so desire (and
> have the technical ability).
> 
> You will never be able to do that with any MS software, and so the
> comparison makes no sense.

Hey, but people are already doing this! Google for ReactOS or Wine.

> The thing (and that's also my point), apparently *most* of the people
> willing and able to create cool software have decided that systemd is
> the way to go. And, even if you want to attribute that to a simple
> monetary issue, most of them do it *happily* because many things are
> just easier to do with systemd.

Most people should never care what init system is in charge while
writing end-user software. If software (e.g. some daemon) depends on
specific init system, it is broken by design.
 
> > They'll be able to
> > stuff everything into it, making effectively a thing in itself which will
> > dictate you where to go and what to do, just because you're not technically
> > competent enough to deal with it -- hence more support calls and more $ etc
> > etc.
> 
> Oh, but nobody will be able to do that to me. I know how to write
> code. I'm willing (and I believe able) to write and/or modify software
> if I don't like how it does things. I've done it before; I could do it
> again.

Even if you have superior and outstanding programming skills I doubt
you have time and resources to rewrite the whole software stack (e.g.
systemd and everything depending on it) yourself.

> >> If *someone*, *willing* AND *able* steps up to do ALL that work, MAYBE
> >> it would happen.
> >>
> >> But don't complain if no one does, and it doesn't.
> >
> >
> > That's your point -- and mine. We aren't complaining -- we want to prevent
> > this.
> 
> Prevent what? People writing new software that offers cool features,
> and therefore distros are using them?

Prevent loosing our freedom in practical sense: while the software
will be still free in FSF license terms, it will be so locked onto
itself that it will be eventually impossible for anyone besides large
corporations to replace it. Thus in the end we'll be dictated what to
do and how to do.

> > The forward-looking people must unite, it may sound ridiculous,
> > against systemd
> 
> You cannot stop people for writing new cool stuff, nor distros for
> wanting to using them. You CAN write your own cool stuff, and
> convincing people that is better than the alternative.

And you can't force people to use your cool stuff because you're
assuming it is cool. That's called freedom, freedom of choice. That
is what I love Gentoo for. That's why I support systemd
profile propose. That's why I will do my best to protect this freedom
in our community.

> > You know what it is: everything's free but nothing to choose from. We had it
> > before, it's called communism. Maybe it is not that bad but we don't want it
> > anymore.
> 
> (Really? A cold war reference?)

Yes, we have a software^Wcorporation war right upon us.
 
Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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