From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4FB3138BF3 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 17:53:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 42810E0AAE; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 17:53:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-la0-f45.google.com (mail-la0-f45.google.com [209.85.215.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6DD1E0A04 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 17:53:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-la0-f45.google.com with SMTP id b8so11596933lan.32 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:53:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type; bh=DrDSvr0BkCfUCBfP3TP8yfA1DucAPHWCfF09WgvB8Xk=; b=csG39CzvH8kwCgjSgmKdzSeoY/M2vrguRQWZH+0NYhPR2auUVxUiGgKaGMl5VF+9LC 1/ThOJYNwrm3vZqOCgBwgBf2xH3I/PzeHDvAO/4IciT4O2JWAN0QJ8yfPqI3Hfo+c5fp LnFSfhze2AwbhfoufZhLiRyyC19wO/mYC5wqYz5wpcWWN4LEoRFGvzAzOerjXgkue1Pn qDUc+A0+Aj6B5L6pewD63gYCFLQ+TkqIBmmjnwY+uvo20AmEv8IgkOJiwrPrQhHHBbnI h8umPnA2X3N/dr8Yodhuv1scCeCqPQLT8jqioAhMIsZFbalwYmV9Op+gWt0p4A1saOmx QjZg== X-Received: by 10.152.36.70 with SMTP id o6mr18147557laj.7.1392659607000; Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([198.46.152.80]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id bl3sm19806978lbd.7.2014.02.17.09.53.23 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 17 Feb 2014 09:53:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 21:52:55 +0400 From: Andrew Savchenko To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Cc: Canek =?UTF-8?B?UGVsw6FleiBWYWxkw6lz?= Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie Message-Id: <20140217215255.5766cb026df2f0b8002f8702@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <52FF84CE.2050301@libertytrek.org> <52FF9D58.3000608@libertytrek.org> <201402152023.10543.michaelkintzios@gmail.com> <5300DD51.5060207@libertytrek.org> <53010A8E.2050909@googlemail.com> <53012691.6040503@googlemail.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.3.0 (GTK+ 2.24.22; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA512"; boundary="Signature=_Mon__17_Feb_2014_21_52_55_+0400_qwaU/4HeBmH4ai6B" X-Archives-Salt: 91f4927f-8741-4a9b-83ec-1cc8febb61e8 X-Archives-Hash: a03bf385715c5ba6936cc5d0930bd60b --Signature=_Mon__17_Feb_2014_21_52_55_+0400_qwaU/4HeBmH4ai6B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 15:16:36 -0600 Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s wrote: > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann > wrote: > > Am 16.02.2014 21:08, schrieb Canek Pel=C3=A1ez Vald=C3=A9s: > >> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann > >> wrote: > >> [ snip ] > >>> or it is an idiotic decision. Because features means complexity. > >> Yeah, like the kernel. > >> > >>> Complexity means bugs. > >> Bugs get reported, bugs get fixes. Life goes on. >=20 > You didn't answered this, did you? Bugs are different. Bugs in the critical system components are critical to the whole system. If Libreoffice or browser segfaults, some data may be lost and inconvenience created, but the system will continue to run. If PID 1 segfaults =E2=80=94 everything is lost, you have a kernel panic. That's why critical components should be as simple and clean as possible. SysVinit code size is about 10 000 lines of code, OpenRC contains about 13 000 lines, systemd =E2=80=94 about 200 000 lines. Even assuming systemd code is as mature as sysvinit or openrc (though I doubt this) you can calculate probabilities of segfaults yourself easily. > >> All of them are different tools providing one capability to systemd as > >> a whole. So systemd is a collection of tools, where each one does one > >> thing, and it does it well. > >> > >> By your definition, systemd perfectly follows "the unix way". > >> > > > > no, it isn't. > > > > How are those binaries talk to each other? >=20 > dbus, which is about to be integrated into the kernel with kdbus. And this is a very, very bad idea. Looks like you don't know matter at all: to begin with kdbus protocol is NOT compatible dbus and special converter daemon will be needed to enable dbus to talk to kdbus. The whole kdbus technology is very questionable itself (and was forcefully pushed by RH devs), anyway it is possible to disable this stuff in kernel and guess what will be done on my systems. > > Looks broken. Broken by design. The worst form of broken. >=20 > By your opinion, not others. That is not just an opinion. There is a science and experience behind system's design. And all that science was ignored during systemd architecture process if there was any at all. =20 Best regards, Andrew Savchenko --Signature=_Mon__17_Feb_2014_21_52_55_+0400_qwaU/4HeBmH4ai6B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJTAkyQAAoJEFZZU7lTcnVs5joQAJRyDiCRZ8PxZp+qUTjZG/HQ oNdf6KnW/K974UDdCIXjpg8WHpKwYqyQNsZXQlKrT0Hqn69qwrf3bJHFteSmbMq+ C3iBHTLl1rAczgskf57leD/bQgOeUgIgKB7r2FOx9TXJ1WknOUKDaC/UzEJ6Vn91 3cl19RxsyDJnMTgh2+boza3sB3lu6UmVZ8HVVEMS/rIfIqtAKnKXZhHw/FWMAZpP VnJQFMGHTiv6tuzGNFXD26Mg8ZaKX9cQ6OB+7ZAwujHS1XhHycwIGSWJuscKtsc5 /a7gQhHdtJ9dtoPM8FDLc29ei8LQSMtk2FydzE/u6PnOiGOWQ5UK76fMWAG6jBBt ln9pql98+1KPLhhTorO+9HehFfB8nHhr40i7gBHqdbJP9LkqZndk9PWl6DTa8IM3 S7WC1JS52Eilq9pS9rqIcJR/PsEe9wKgyb33uOg0r4J7McnxwRZiQN0Znbp+AAXV 3her6PDwFHp5dCpWuWUnWZ/Y0C56VLMUixXmDxkCOJPPyOICZDtC8d/P3hyUuaeP KiXA9ztqSYZ8gFfzvFeDkMr6kQiaZzfn2UO85gXDC+4ZN9P+0icL9QjWi00FsTNf mSTcVB+n2pTBqSWtAzb0APCkjUy2x47osRm/SmqrTwnPQ7GNY0vXiNDMpaQ1DaVF 3xetf5CnnuqBFv8HChzT =FuNt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Mon__17_Feb_2014_21_52_55_+0400_qwaU/4HeBmH4ai6B--