[gentoo-user] s6 et al

[gentoo-user] s6 et al

[Bruce Hill]

Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:

http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] s6 et al

[William Hubbs]

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On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:04:24AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote:
> Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:
> 
> http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html

Yes, I have been looking at this for a few days, and some of the other
members of the OpenRC team are interested in it as well.

I am waiting for a bug to be fixed before I can put execline and s6 in
the tree [1].

William

[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=486744


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Re: [gentoo-user] s6 et al

[Bruce Hill]

On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 09:44:35AM -0500, William Hubbs wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:04:24AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote:
> > Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:
> > 
> > http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html
> 
> Yes, I have been looking at this for a few days, and some of the other
> members of the OpenRC team are interested in it as well.
> 
> I am waiting for a bug to be fixed before I can put execline and s6 in
> the tree [1].
> 
> William
> 
> [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=486744

Found that bug report earlier and CCed myself. Will track the progress, maybe
use it on a test box I plan to build soon.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

[gentoo-user] Re: s6 et al

[James]

William Hubbs <williamh <at> gentoo.org> writes:


> On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:04:24AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote:
> > Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:
> > 
> > http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html

> Yes, I have been looking at this for a few days, and some of the other
> members of the OpenRC team are interested in it as well.

I'm not too sure about the kernel sources:
"is provided by Gandi and cannot be modified"

My experiences with embedded *nix is that the kernel sources
are tinkered with, almost constantly to infinity......

You'd be wise to post to the gentoo-embedded group, where
those learking in the shadows (memory crevaces) have
lots of experiences with a multitude of embedded ventures.

Most embedded ventures end up on the waste heap; they made
critical decision that leave the effort..........borked.
I'd research into the coding+user community, as being 
naked and alone on an embedded vetnure, does give rise to
abandonment.   

Another consideration is the processor architecture(s) that 
the codebase runs on. Most embedded and high end processor
efforts are looking at LOW POWER architectures, as the thrust
of all future efforts. This means on ARM or ARM+x86 or such.


That said, the project does look attractive.

caveat emptor.
hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: s6 et al

[Alan McKinnon]

On 03/10/2013 14:55, James wrote:
> William Hubbs <williamh <at> gentoo.org> writes:
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:04:24AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote:
>>> Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:
>>>
>>> http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html
> 
>> Yes, I have been looking at this for a few days, and some of the other
>> members of the OpenRC team are interested in it as well.
> 
> I'm not too sure about the kernel sources:
> "is provided by Gandi and cannot be modified"

That's a GPL violation right there.

The developer absolutely totally cannot do that. He/she may refuse to
provide support if the kernel image is not what is shipped, but by using
Linux they have already bound themselves to an agreement that the
sources must be provided and be modifiable. And, they have to host the
sources on their own network or provide them on demand



> 
> My experiences with embedded *nix is that the kernel sources
> are tinkered with, almost constantly to infinity......
> 
> You'd be wise to post to the gentoo-embedded group, where
> those learking in the shadows (memory crevaces) have
> lots of experiences with a multitude of embedded ventures.
> 
> Most embedded ventures end up on the waste heap; they made
> critical decision that leave the effort..........borked.
> I'd research into the coding+user community, as being 
> naked and alone on an embedded vetnure, does give rise to
> abandonment.   
> 
> Another consideration is the processor architecture(s) that 
> the codebase runs on. Most embedded and high end processor
> efforts are looking at LOW POWER architectures, as the thrust
> of all future efforts. This means on ARM or ARM+x86 or such.
> 
> 
> That said, the project does look attractive.
> 
> caveat emptor.
> hth,
> James
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: s6 et al

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/03/2013 08:57 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>
>> I'm not too sure about the kernel sources:
>> "is provided by Gandi and cannot be modified"
> 
> That's a GPL violation right there.
> 
> The developer absolutely totally cannot do that. He/she may refuse to
> provide support if the kernel image is not what is shipped, but by using
> Linux they have already bound themselves to an agreement that the
> sources must be provided and be modifiable. And, they have to host the
> sources on their own network or provide them on demand
> 

Don't worry, it's a misquote. The real one is,

  The kernel is provided by Gandi and cannot be modified

So you can't modify the running kernel on their VPS. Which is to say,
you probably /can/ but the thing will never boot again.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: s6 et al

[Dragostin Yanev]

On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:57:38 +0200
Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 03/10/2013 14:55, James wrote:
> > William Hubbs <williamh <at> gentoo.org> writes:
> > 
> > 
> >> On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:04:24AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote:
> >>> Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:
> >>>
> >>> http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html
> > 
> >> Yes, I have been looking at this for a few days, and some of the
> >> other members of the OpenRC team are interested in it as well.
> > 
> > I'm not too sure about the kernel sources:
> > "is provided by Gandi and cannot be modified"
> 
> That's a GPL violation right there.

Hi,
I think you are misreading that sentence out of it's context.
The context as I read it states that the hosting server is a VPS leased
by Gandi and they don't have control over the kernel (openvz, lxc,
containers, etc..).


> 
> The developer absolutely totally cannot do that. He/she may refuse to
> provide support if the kernel image is not what is shipped, but by
> using Linux they have already bound themselves to an agreement that
> the sources must be provided and be modifiable. And, they have to
> host the sources on their own network or provide them on demand
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > My experiences with embedded *nix is that the kernel sources
> > are tinkered with, almost constantly to infinity......
> > 
> > You'd be wise to post to the gentoo-embedded group, where
> > those learking in the shadows (memory crevaces) have
> > lots of experiences with a multitude of embedded ventures.
> > 
> > Most embedded ventures end up on the waste heap; they made
> > critical decision that leave the effort..........borked.
> > I'd research into the coding+user community, as being 
> > naked and alone on an embedded vetnure, does give rise to
> > abandonment.   
> > 
> > Another consideration is the processor architecture(s) that 
> > the codebase runs on. Most embedded and high end processor
> > efforts are looking at LOW POWER architectures, as the thrust
> > of all future efforts. This means on ARM or ARM+x86 or such.
> > 
> > 
> > That said, the project does look attractive.
> > 
> > caveat emptor.
> > hth,
> > James
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: s6 et al

[Alan McKinnon]

On 03/10/2013 16:09, Dragostin Yanev wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:57:38 +0200
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 03/10/2013 14:55, James wrote:
>>> William Hubbs <williamh <at> gentoo.org> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:04:24AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote:
>>>>> Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html
>>>
>>>> Yes, I have been looking at this for a few days, and some of the
>>>> other members of the OpenRC team are interested in it as well.
>>>
>>> I'm not too sure about the kernel sources:
>>> "is provided by Gandi and cannot be modified"
>>
>> That's a GPL violation right there.
> 
> Hi,
> I think you are misreading that sentence out of it's context.
> The context as I read it states that the hosting server is a VPS leased
> by Gandi and they don't have control over the kernel (openvz, lxc,
> containers, etc..).


Michael cleared that up too

Running kernel != sources




-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] s6 et al

[William Hubbs]

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On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 09:52:36AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 09:44:35AM -0500, William Hubbs wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:04:24AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote:
> > > Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:
> > > 
> > > http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html
> > 
> > Yes, I have been looking at this for a few days, and some of the other
> > members of the OpenRC team are interested in it as well.
> > 
> > I am waiting for a bug to be fixed before I can put execline and s6 in
> > the tree [1].
> > 
> > William
> > 
> > [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=486744
> 
> Found that bug report earlier and CCed myself. Will track the progress, maybe
> use it on a test box I plan to build soon.

That bug report is now closed, and skalibs, execline and s6 are now in
the tree. If you emerge s6 you get all of them since s6 depends on them.

For everyone else who is following this thread: The web page originally
referred to is just discussing what his server is running. The more
interesting page is his software page:

http://www.skarnet.org/software/

William


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Re: [gentoo-user] s6 et al

[Pandu Poluan]

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On Oct 3, 2013 9:26 PM, "William Hubbs" <williamh@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 09:52:36AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 09:44:35AM -0500, William Hubbs wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:04:24AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote:
> > > > Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:
> > > >
> > > > http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html
> > >
> > > Yes, I have been looking at this for a few days, and some of the other
> > > members of the OpenRC team are interested in it as well.
> > >
> > > I am waiting for a bug to be fixed before I can put execline and s6 in
> > > the tree [1].
> > >
> > > William
> > >
> > > [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=486744
> >
> > Found that bug report earlier and CCed myself. Will track the progress,
maybe
> > use it on a test box I plan to build soon.
>
> That bug report is now closed, and skalibs, execline and s6 are now in
> the tree. If you emerge s6 you get all of them since s6 depends on them.
>
> For everyone else who is following this thread: The web page originally
> referred to is just discussing what his server is running. The more
> interesting page is his software page:
>
> http://www.skarnet.org/software/
>
> William
>

I chuckle at what s6's author wrote about systemd:

http://skarnet.org/software/s6/s6-svscan-not-1.html

Rgds,
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Re: [gentoo-user] s6 et al

[William Hubbs]

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On Thu, Oct 03, 2013 at 09:39:27PM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> 
> I chuckle at what s6's author wrote about systemd:
>
> http://skarnet.org/software/s6/s6-svscan-not-1.html
>

Yes, I saw that too.

I don't know anything about D-Bus, so I can't comment specifically about
it, but I tend to agree quite a bit with this guy's ideas about the init
system. process 1 should be kept simple, and in systemd, this is
definitely not the case.

William


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[gentoo-user] Re: s6 et al

[James]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:


> > I think you are misreading that sentence out of it's context.
> > The context as I read it states that the hosting server is a VPS leased
> > by Gandi and they don't have control over the kernel (openvz, lxc,
> > containers, etc..).

> Michael cleared that up too
> Running kernel != sources

Well, these minimalist--> embedded distros have finely tuned
kernels and that is a quintessential characteristic. If the upstream kernel
is availble in source form, with some docs, then why does the (mini) distro
just make provisions for kernel mods inhouse?

Danger will robinson, DANGER.....
Been there done that TOO MANY TIMES.

caveat emptor!
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: s6 et al

[William Hubbs]

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On Thu, Oct 03, 2013 at 03:32:40PM +0000, James wrote:
> Well, these minimalist--> embedded distros have finely tuned
> kernels and that is a quintessential characteristic. If the upstream kernel
> is availble in source form, with some docs, then why does the (mini) distro
> just make provisions for kernel mods inhouse?
> 
> Danger will robinson, DANGER.....
> Been there done that TOO MANY TIMES.

As I said in the other subthread, look at his software page; that is the
more interesting part of the site. The original link in this thread is
just describing the setup he is using, not the software he releases.

http://www.skarnet.org/software/

William

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Re: [gentoo-user] s6 et al

[Walter Dnes]

On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:04:24AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote
> Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:
> 
> http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html

  Out of sheer curiousity, what common software would break under
uclibc?  My first gues would be stuff like Schlockwave/Trash and Nvidia
binary blobs... i.e. any binary file that has been complied against
glibc, which we do not have the sources to re-compile.  Other than that,
it might be fun to build a "Gentoo lite" based on uclibc and busybox.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] s6 et al

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 04.10.2013 00:32, schrieb Walter Dnes:
> On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 12:04:24AM -0500, Bruce Hill wrote
>> Just stumbled across some very interesting software/ideas:
>>
>> http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html
>   Out of sheer curiousity, what common software would break under
> uclibc?  My first gues would be stuff like Schlockwave/Trash and Nvidia
> binary blobs... i.e. any binary file that has been complied against
> glibc, which we do not have the sources to re-compile.  Other than that,
> it might be fun to build a "Gentoo lite" based on uclibc and busybox.
>


https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Hardened_uClibc
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Hardened_uClibc/Lilblue