From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2013 12:07:44 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20130929120743.GC3161@acm.acm> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20130928233750.55b2683a@digimed.co.uk>
Hello, Neil.
On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 11:37:50PM +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 21:09:38 +0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > > It's evolution. Linux has for years been moving in this direction,
> > > now it has reached the point where the Gentoo devs can no longer
> > > devote the increasing time needed to support what has now become an
> > > edge case.
> > That's precisely the sort of patronising comment I was complaining of in
> > my previous paragraph.
> In what way is it patronising?
It talks down to people. It insinuates that the readers don't have the
wherewithal to appreciate that they have been deliberately hurt by
_somebody_ rather than something "just happening"; that the idea of an
abstraction "moving" is any sort of justification for anything.
> > It isn't "evolution". It has been a decision of somebody to move it.
> > Who?
> It hasn't been a single decision.
Somebody, somewhere was the first person to decide to put early boot
software into /usr. Others may have followed him, sooner or later, but
there was a single person (or perhaps a conspiracy) that did this first.
Who? There was no public discussion of this momentous change, not that
I'm aware of. Why?
> > > > No, this breaking of separate /usr was done by some specific
> > > > project, some specific person, even, in a supreme display of
> > > > incompetence, malice, or arrogance. How come this project and
> > > > this person have managed to maintain such a low profile? There
> > > > seems to have been some sort of conspiracy to do this breakage in
> > > > secret, each member of the coven pushing the plot until the
> > > > damage was irrevocable. Who was it?
> > > So which was it, one specific person or a coven of conspirators?
> > > This is open source, secret conspiracies don't really work well. If
> > > this really was such a bad move, do you really think the likes of
> > > Greg K-H would not have stepped in? Or is he a conspirator too?
> > I know not how many people were involved. Don't you think it
> > noteworthy that we on this group first learnt of the change when it
> > had already happened? I have no idea whether people like GK-H would
> > have been aware of it either.
> I think that is entirely the right time to learn of it. If you want to
> know about the devs' discussions before reaching the decision, you
> should read gentoo-dev. Until then it was a dev issue, now it is being
> implemented it is a user issue.
Please be aware the change I was talking about was the decision to break
separate /usr, not the Gentoo devs' reaction to this breakage. Why did
we only become aware of the decision to break separate /usr after it was
too late to do anything about it? How could such a thing happen, if not
through conspiracy?
> > It [creating an initramfs] may or may not be demanding for any
> > particular administrator. It is undoubtedly tedious and time
> > consuming.
> I disagree, but then I have actually tried doing it.
I tried, and gave up after a couple of hours. It was a challenge, but
I've grown out of being fascinated by challenges for their own sake.
Then I installed dracut, only to find it won't work on my system. I
haven't tried genkernel. In the end, with regrets, I took /usr out of my
LVM area and put it into a new partition which became the root partition.
> This whole discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a senior
> SUSE engineer earlier this year, someone of a similar age to myself.
> His comment was along the lines of "I remember when Linux users wanted
> the latest bleeding edge, now they complain every time something
> changes".
The particular change is not progress, it's not a new feature, it's not
something useful for users. It's pure breakage for no good reason. If
this is what "bleeding edge" now means, no surprise that people complain
about it.
> --
> Neil Bothwick
> A journey of a thousand miles begins with a cash advance from Mom.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-09-29 12:09 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 262+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-09-27 22:21 [gentoo-user] separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01 Bruce Hill
2013-09-27 22:33 ` Dale
2013-09-27 22:39 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-27 22:57 ` Dale
2013-09-27 23:10 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-27 23:47 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 0:39 ` David W Noon
2013-09-28 8:30 ` Mick
2013-09-28 8:42 ` Dale
2013-09-28 12:30 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-28 12:49 ` David W Noon
2013-09-28 12:54 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-29 14:20 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 14:57 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-29 17:24 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 17:41 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2013-09-29 18:02 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-29 18:29 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-28 11:32 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-28 13:15 ` Michael Hampicke
2013-09-28 15:06 ` Dale
2013-09-28 16:54 ` Mick
2013-09-28 17:49 ` Michael Hampicke
2013-09-28 18:18 ` Dale
2013-09-28 22:46 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 14:49 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 15:24 ` Dale
2013-09-29 17:37 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 18:25 ` Dale
2013-09-29 18:45 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 21:23 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-29 21:32 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 21:33 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 23:05 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 21:35 ` Dale
2013-09-29 22:58 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 23:27 ` Dale
2013-09-30 17:10 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 17:25 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-30 17:42 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 19:10 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 20:47 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-01 3:36 ` Bruce Hill
2013-10-01 7:37 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-30 20:48 ` Dale
2013-09-30 21:04 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-10-01 1:43 ` Dale
2013-09-29 23:19 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 23:34 ` Dale
2013-09-30 8:09 ` Joost Roeleveld
2013-09-29 18:45 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-30 16:38 ` Dan Johansson
2013-09-30 18:09 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-09-30 20:08 ` Dan Johansson
2013-09-30 20:50 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 15:41 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2013-09-29 20:17 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 14:30 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-28 14:04 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-28 18:11 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-28 19:50 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 22:51 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 14:55 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 17:55 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 20:28 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 23:31 ` Daniel Campbell
2013-09-29 23:57 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-30 10:01 ` Hinnerk van Bruinehsen
2013-09-30 10:22 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 23:28 ` [gentoo-user] " Jonathan Callen
2013-09-30 9:31 ` [gentoo-user] " Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 10:27 ` Daniel Campbell
2013-09-30 10:28 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-28 0:32 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-28 16:01 ` William Hubbs
2013-09-28 17:31 ` Dale
2013-09-28 19:53 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 22:15 ` Dale
2013-09-28 22:46 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 23:09 ` Dale
2013-09-29 5:29 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-29 8:25 ` Mick
2013-09-29 8:28 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 10:55 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 11:03 ` Greg Woodbury
2013-09-29 11:58 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 15:12 ` Flexibility and robustness in the Linux organisim (was: [gentoo-user] separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01) Greg Woodbury
2013-09-29 15:22 ` Alon Bar-Lev
2013-09-29 16:03 ` [gentoo-user] Re: Flexibility and robustness in the Linux organisim Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 16:33 ` Dale
2013-09-29 19:42 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 21:41 ` Dale
2013-09-29 22:04 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 6:31 ` pk
2013-09-30 7:32 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 19:40 ` pk
2013-09-30 21:05 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-30 22:37 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-11 8:16 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-10-11 8:44 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-11 14:44 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-10-01 19:22 ` [gentoo-user] " Mark David Dumlao
2013-10-01 19:28 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-10-11 7:54 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-10-11 7:50 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-11 11:22 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-09-29 16:41 ` [gentoo-user] " Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)
2013-09-29 22:47 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 23:21 ` Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)
2013-10-01 5:11 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-10-01 5:14 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-10-01 16:35 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-10-11 8:28 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-10-11 15:50 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 17:54 ` [gentoo-user] " Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 19:30 ` [gentoo-user] separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01 Alan McKinnon
2013-10-08 0:03 ` [gentoo-user] " walt
2013-10-08 18:11 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-10-09 4:16 ` William Hubbs
2013-10-10 0:24 ` walt
2013-10-10 14:46 ` William Hubbs
2013-10-10 15:29 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-10-11 6:59 ` Nicolas Sebrecht
2013-09-29 18:46 ` [gentoo-user] " Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 16:58 ` the
2013-09-29 19:16 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 2:23 ` [gentoo-user] " »Q«
2013-09-29 18:41 ` [gentoo-user] " Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 21:48 ` Dale
2013-09-29 23:12 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 17:43 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 18:53 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 19:54 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 20:20 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-09-29 22:00 ` Dale
2013-09-29 22:31 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-09-29 23:08 ` Dale
2013-09-30 7:35 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 9:27 ` Dale
2013-09-29 23:40 ` Daniel Campbell
2013-09-30 7:39 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-28 19:04 ` Alan Mackenzie
2013-09-28 20:17 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 21:09 ` Alan Mackenzie
2013-09-28 22:37 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 4:48 ` Greg Woodbury
2013-09-29 5:08 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-29 8:43 ` Dale
2013-09-29 12:07 ` Alan Mackenzie [this message]
2013-09-29 16:10 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 22:06 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-29 23:00 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 4:14 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-30 4:21 ` Mark David Dumlao
2013-09-30 4:36 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2013-09-30 9:25 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-30 8:01 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 10:32 ` Joost Roeleveld
2013-09-30 10:41 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 8:19 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 23:24 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 17:55 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 18:30 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-28 22:24 ` Dale
2013-09-29 17:58 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 18:21 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2013-09-29 18:32 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 19:11 ` William Hubbs
2013-09-29 19:34 ` Canek Peláez Valdés
2013-09-29 19:41 ` Alon Bar-Lev
2013-09-29 23:02 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 23:52 ` Greg Woodbury
2013-09-30 0:02 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-11 8:36 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-10-11 8:42 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-11 11:27 ` [gentoo-user] " Steven J. Long
2013-10-11 11:55 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-11 13:11 ` Peter Humphrey
2013-10-11 13:58 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-12 2:21 ` [gentoo-user] " walt
2013-10-12 5:06 ` Daniel Campbell
2013-10-12 8:11 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 14:53 ` [gentoo-user] " Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 15:39 ` Dale
2013-09-30 4:55 ` [gentoo-user] " »Q«
2013-09-30 9:24 ` Dale
2013-09-29 18:36 ` [gentoo-user] " Neil Bothwick
2013-09-30 10:16 ` Joost Roeleveld
2013-09-30 10:24 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-30 10:35 ` Joost Roeleveld
2013-09-29 17:59 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 20:09 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 20:35 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-30 10:20 ` Joost Roeleveld
2013-09-28 20:43 ` [gentoo-user] " Nikos Chantziaras
2013-09-28 20:58 ` Alon Bar-Lev
2013-09-28 22:36 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-28 23:23 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-28 23:31 ` pk
2013-09-29 0:01 ` Dale
2013-09-29 0:10 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 0:33 ` pk
2013-09-29 4:05 ` Bruce Hill
2013-09-29 10:59 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 15:24 ` pk
2013-09-29 16:11 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 16:36 ` Dale
2013-09-29 17:05 ` pk
2013-09-29 0:08 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 10:59 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-29 6:06 ` Walter Dnes
2013-09-29 9:30 ` pk
2013-09-29 10:21 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-09-29 17:55 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 18:55 ` William Hubbs
2013-09-29 19:09 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-09 13:39 ` gottlieb
2013-09-29 20:39 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 20:51 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 21:15 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-29 22:53 ` Tanstaafl
2013-09-29 23:09 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 9:00 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 17:25 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-09-30 19:14 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-09-30 22:05 ` Mick
2013-09-30 22:39 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-01 12:35 ` PORTDIR default - changing PORTDIR variable - WAS " Tanstaafl
2013-10-01 12:46 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-01 13:52 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-01 14:11 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-01 14:57 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-01 14:17 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-01 13:13 ` Dragostin Yanev
2013-10-01 14:14 ` Michael Orlitzky
2013-10-01 18:15 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-01 18:48 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-01 21:24 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-01 22:51 ` Greg Turner
2013-10-01 23:41 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 12:23 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-02 15:31 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 18:24 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-02 20:21 ` Tanstaafl
2013-12-04 15:05 ` [gentoo-user] Re: PORTDIR default - changing PORTDIR variable Tanstaafl
2013-12-04 21:43 ` Tanstaafl
2013-12-04 22:44 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-12-05 11:47 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-03 5:48 ` PORTDIR default - changing PORTDIR variable - WAS Re: [gentoo-user] Re: separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01 joost
2013-10-03 8:11 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 12:04 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-02 12:12 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-02 12:29 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-02 12:28 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-02 12:53 ` Tanstaafl
2013-10-02 15:47 ` Alan McKinnon
2013-10-02 16:39 ` Neil Bothwick
2013-10-03 9:00 ` Yuri K. Shatroff
2013-10-03 12:09 ` Volker Armin Hemmann
2013-10-02 8:03 ` [gentoo-user] Re: PORTDIR default - changing PORTDIR variable Thanasis
2013-09-30 0:28 ` [gentoo-user] Re: separate / and /usr to require initramfs 2013-11-01 Daniel Campbell
[not found] <lWOHU-5Kr-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lWORA-5Tq-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lWORA-5Tq-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lWPaW-6bL-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lWQJH-8d1-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lX5fI-13Z-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lXtBo-6G5-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lXvDc-IX-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <lXvWy-11o-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
2013-10-06 22:02 ` [gentoo-user] " Gregory Shearman
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