[gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Alexander Puchmayr]

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Hi there,

I just burned all my pictures from my last vacation on a blueray-disk using 
k3b, and for no apparent reason it stoped at 99.8% and complained an error 
(I/O error). I checked the logs (see attached file), but could not find a hint. 
I compared each and every file on the disk with its original, but yould not find 
any problem.

dmesg shows this
26762.496981] warning: `growisofs' uses 32-bit capabilities (legacy support in 
use)
[27681.802889] ata5.00: exception Emask 0x0 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x0 action 0x6 
frozen
[27681.802903] sr 4:0:0:0: [sr0] CDB: 
[27681.802905] cdb[0]=0x28: 28 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 01 00
[27681.802929] ata5.00: cmd a0/01:00:00:00:08/00:00:00:00:00/a0 tag 0 dma 2048 
in
         res 40/00:03:00:00:00/00:00:00:00:00/a0 Emask 0x4 (timeout)
[27681.802934] ata5.00: status: { DRDY }
[27681.802942] ata5: hard resetting link
[27683.026713] ata5: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300)
[27683.033633] ata5.00: configured for UDMA/133
[27683.046777] ata5: EH complete

I tried with a second BD-Media, but got the same result.

Any ideas what could have gone wrong?

Best regards
	Alex

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Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Alexander Puchmayr <alexander.puchmayr@linznet.at> wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I just burned all my pictures from my last vacation on a blueray-disk using 
> k3b, and for no apparent reason it stoped at 99.8% and complained an error 
> (I/O error). I checked the logs (see attached file), but could not find a hint. 
> I compared each and every file on the disk with its original, but yould not find 
> any problem.
>
> dmesg shows this
> 26762.496981] warning: `growisofs' uses 32-bit capabilities (legacy support in 
> use)
> [27681.802889] ata5.00: exception Emask 0x0 SAct 0x0 SErr 0x0 action 0x6 
> frozen
> [27681.802903] sr 4:0:0:0: [sr0] CDB: 
> [27681.802905] cdb[0]=0x28: 28 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 01 00
> [27681.802929] ata5.00: cmd a0/01:00:00:00:08/00:00:00:00:00/a0 tag 0 dma 2048 
> in
>          res 40/00:03:00:00:00/00:00:00:00:00/a0 Emask 0x4 (timeout)
> [27681.802934] ata5.00: status: { DRDY }
> [27681.802942] ata5: hard resetting link
> [27683.026713] ata5: SATA link up 1.5 Gbps (SStatus 113 SControl 300)
> [27683.033633] ata5.00: configured for UDMA/133
> [27683.046777] ata5: EH complete
>
> I tried with a second BD-Media, but got the same result.
>
> Any ideas what could have gone wrong?

It is interesting that there is no error message in the output from your 
attachment.

k3b should usew cdrecord instead of growisofs in case that cdrecord is 
installed. Is cdrecord missing or why did k3b use growisofs?

Did you explicitely try cdrecord?

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Alexander Puchmayr]

On Samstag, 6. Juli 2013, 23:55:52 Joerg Schilling wrote:
[...]
> > 
> > Any ideas what could have gone wrong?
> 
> It is interesting that there is no error message in the output from your
> attachment.
> 
> k3b should usew cdrecord instead of growisofs in case that cdrecord is
> installed. Is cdrecord missing or why did k3b use growisofs?
> 
> Did you explicitely try cdrecord?
> 

Hi,

cdrecord is installed, I have no idea why k3b chose to use growisofs for 
creating the >10G isofs. 

I did not try cdrecord (How can I change which programs k3b uses?)

Alex

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Alexander Puchmayr <alexander.puchmayr@linznet.at> wrote:

> > k3b should usew cdrecord instead of growisofs in case that cdrecord is
> > installed. Is cdrecord missing or why did k3b use growisofs?
> > 
> > Did you explicitely try cdrecord?
> > 
>
> cdrecord is installed, I have no idea why k3b chose to use growisofs for 
> creating the >10G isofs. 
>
> I did not try cdrecord (How can I change which programs k3b uses?)

I don't use k3b, so I don't know. My information is from users of cdrtols and 
from discussions I had with the k3b people.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Paul Colquhoun]

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On Sun, 7 Jul 2013 14:06:36 Alexander Puchmayr wrote:
> On Samstag, 6. Juli 2013, 23:55:52 Joerg Schilling wrote:
> [...]
> 
> > > Any ideas what could have gone wrong?
> > 
> > It is interesting that there is no error message in the output from your
> > attachment.
> > 
> > k3b should usew cdrecord instead of growisofs in case that cdrecord is
> > installed. Is cdrecord missing or why did k3b use growisofs?
> > 
> > Did you explicitely try cdrecord?
> 
> Hi,
> 
> cdrecord is installed, I have no idea why k3b chose to use growisofs for
> creating the >10G isofs.
> 
> I did not try cdrecord (How can I change which programs k3b uses?)


"Settings" -> "Configure K3b" -> "Programs"


-- 
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC.     http://andor.dropbear.id.au/
  Asking for technical help in newsgroups?  Read this first:
     http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro


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Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Mick]

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On Monday 08 Jul 2013 07:53:14 Paul Colquhoun wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Jul 2013 14:06:36 Alexander Puchmayr wrote:
> > On Samstag, 6. Juli 2013, 23:55:52 Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > [...]
> > 
> > > > Any ideas what could have gone wrong?
> > > 
> > > It is interesting that there is no error message in the output from
> > > your attachment.
> > > 
> > > k3b should usew cdrecord instead of growisofs in case that cdrecord is
> > > installed. Is cdrecord missing or why did k3b use growisofs?
> > > 
> > > Did you explicitely try cdrecord?
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > cdrecord is installed, I have no idea why k3b chose to use growisofs for
> > creating the >10G isofs.
> > 
> > I did not try cdrecord (How can I change which programs k3b uses?)
> 
> "Settings" -> "Configure K3b" -> "Programs"

This just displays what's there.  I can't change any of the listed programs 
from this screen.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

paulcol@andor.dropbear.id.au wrote:
> > "Settings" -> "Configure K3b" -> "Programs"

michaelkintzios@gmail.com wrote:
> This just displays what's there.  I can't change any of the listed programs 
> from this screen.

So one should rather repair growisofs.
It is not a big deal.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Dale]

Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> paulcol@andor.dropbear.id.au wrote:
>>> "Settings" -> "Configure K3b" -> "Programs"
> michaelkintzios@gmail.com wrote:
>> This just displays what's there.  I can't change any of the listed programs 
>> from this screen.
> So one should rather repair growisofs.
> It is not a big deal.
>
>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>
>

I wonder if he can unmerge growisofs?  Or at least remove the file. 

Just a thought.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

rdalek1967@gmail.com wrote:
> I wonder if he can unmerge growisofs?  Or at least remove the file. 

In order to make it use cdrecord for DVD and BD ?

(Cough.)

growisofs is unsurpassed with DVD. I am a competitor of it
(by libburn) and believe to be able to judge its doings in
respect to the SCSI standards SPC-3 and MMC-5.

With BD it has one bug and two design decisions which i do not
agree with.
The bug is the one which i strongly believe is reported here.
We could know for sure if Alex would try the proposed fix.

The two decisions are formatting BD-R to Pseudo Overwrite capability,
and not offering writing without Defect Management to formatted BD.
Defect Management reduces write speed to at most half nominal
media speed. Pseudo Overwrite puts an extra layer of complexity
onto BD-R burning.

The bug is easily fixed, and the design decisions are features for
which the author has made his point in
  http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/Blu-ray/
I do not agree, but i cannot flatly reject his reasons, either.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Dale]

Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> rdalek1967@gmail.com wrote:
>> I wonder if he can unmerge growisofs?  Or at least remove the file. 
> In order to make it use cdrecord for DVD and BD ?
>
> (Cough.)
>
> growisofs is unsurpassed with DVD. I am a competitor of it
> (by libburn) and believe to be able to judge its doings in
> respect to the SCSI standards SPC-3 and MMC-5.
>
> With BD it has one bug and two design decisions which i do not
> agree with.
> The bug is the one which i strongly believe is reported here.
> We could know for sure if Alex would try the proposed fix.
>
> The two decisions are formatting BD-R to Pseudo Overwrite capability,
> and not offering writing without Defect Management to formatted BD.
> Defect Management reduces write speed to at most half nominal
> media speed. Pseudo Overwrite puts an extra layer of complexity
> onto BD-R burning.
>
> The bug is easily fixed, and the design decisions are features for
> which the author has made his point in
>   http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/Blu-ray/
> I do not agree, but i cannot flatly reject his reasons, either.
>
>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>
>


I thought it might be worth a mention as a temporary workaround.  If the
growisofs file is removed, k3b won't find it and can't use it.  Of
course, it may not work at all then either.  I'm not a k3b expert but do
use it sometimes. 

Maybe one of these ideas floating around will help the OP. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

rdalek1967@gmail.com wrote:
> Maybe one of these ideas floating around will help the OP. 

One big problem is the substantial price of BD-R experiments.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> rdalek1967@gmail.com wrote:
> > Maybe one of these ideas floating around will help the OP. 
>
> One big problem is the substantial price of BD-R experiments.

Well, I am not sure whether you noticed: the OP seems to have turned several 
BD-Rs into coasters already. I cannot speak for other people, but I did not
ruin a single BD using cdrecord.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wrote:
> > One big problem is the substantial price of BD-R experiments.

Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote:
> the OP seems to have turned several BD-Rs into coasters already.

The OP reports:
> > > I compared each and every file on the disk with its original,
> > > but yould not find any problem. 

This matches Andy Polyakov's diagnosis that the media are ok
afterwards.
The flawless readbility, the timepoint of failure, and the i/o error
reported by K3b, alltogether make me believe that it is the 5 year
old bug.

Of course, everybody has to decide by himself where to invest
test media.

My proposal is to fix and test growisofs.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
(Joerg and i know each other from many encounters in the past.
 We do not necessarily agree on technical questions. My apologies for
 getting off the original topic now.)

Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote:
> Many people reported problems even with writing DVDs using growisofs that
> went away after upgrading to cdrtools.

"With some fantasy you can see the weirdest things in the mist."
(Franquin via Gaston Lagaffe)

It is not impossible that a drive refuses on one way of burn
preparation while still working with a different one.
One might get lucky with the defaults of one burn program and
experience failure with those of the other burn program.
But normally a drive is on the edge of failure if it behaves
that way. The luck may turn quite quickly then.


Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote:
> Note that I already mentioned that growisofs is a layzy written program

I would compare its style rather to BASIC than to assembler. :))
But that does not influence its SCSI standards compliance.


Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote:
> has many places where is returns the unly slightly modified result of a SCSI
> mode sense operation while running a SCSI mode select operation. As it only
> slightly modifies the received data instead of constructing SCSI standard 
> compliant data, these mode select operations do not always have the desired
> effect.

How else should one learn the current settings in order _not_
to change those which are non-changeable ?

In the source files of growisofs i can spot only one occasion
of MODE SELECT. This is in transport.hxx where Andy composes
a mode page 05 for DVD-R[W].

I read in SPC-3 6.9.3 that the drive shall throw error if one
attempts to change a non-changeable value. But not that the drive
is allowed to return values which may cause error if sent back
to the drive.

So if the code of transport.hxx is wrong, then not because it
would send back values which it got from the drive, but because
it does not inquire by PC=01b whether its self-constructed values
are allowed to be changed.
(I don't do this either. It is worth consideration, though.)


Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote:
> This kind of problems is independent from the media type

Mode page 05 is only appropriate for CD and DVD-R[W].
(MMC-5 7.5.2, 7.5.3)
So this problem is highly dependent on the media type.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> My proposal is to fix and test growisofs.

Well, growisofs is unmaintained since 5 years. The question is whether such a 
change would be suffucuent or whether there are many more problem (see the mode 
select problem I mentioned).

> Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote:
> > has many places where is returns the unly slightly modified result of a SCSI
> > mode sense operation while running a SCSI mode select operation. As it only
> > slightly modifies the received data instead of constructing SCSI standard 
> > compliant data, these mode select operations do not always have the desired
> > effect.
>
> How else should one learn the current settings in order _not_
> to change those which are non-changeable ?

I recommend you to read the SCSI standard and to have a look at what growisofs 
actually does. I know that the code is hard to read, so it is easy to overlook 
the problems...

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Alexander Puchmayr]

On Mittwoch, 10. Juli 2013, 10:36:08 Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > rdalek1967@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Maybe one of these ideas floating around will help the OP.
> > 
> > One big problem is the substantial price of BD-R experiments.
> 
> Well, I am not sure whether you noticed: the OP seems to have turned several
> BD-Rs into coasters already. I cannot speak for other people, but I did not
> ruin a single BD using cdrecord.
> 
> Jörg

Actually, the burnt BDs where readable and contained the expected content. 
Maybe the problem is when closing the session or writing some kind of lead-
out, or the like. However, I can mount them and read them.

Alex

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

> maybe the problem is when closing the session or writing some kind of lead-
> out, or the like.

The problem is that the CLOSE TRACK/SESSION command is appropriate
for the end of burning BD-R, only if it is unformatted or if it is
formatted to SRM without Pseudo Overwrite.

As soon as it is formatted to Pseudo Overwrite, the command is
inappropriate, which the burner indicates by the ILLEGAL REQUEST
error code (which one would see if K3b would not swallow it).

The bug of growisofs is that it formats the BD-R to Pseudo Overwrite
but omits to memorize this new state.
If the BD-R is already formatted to Pseudo Overwrite when growisofs
inspects it, then its state gets memorized and the inappropriate
SCSI command is not issued.

My patch proposal just sets the memorizing Pseudo Overwrite flag
after the medium has been formatted. So growisofs treats it the
same as if it had already been formatted when growisofs first
inspected it.
This avoids the error.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> I thought it might be worth a mention as a temporary workaround.  If the
> growisofs file is removed, k3b won't find it and can't use it.  Of
> course, it may not work at all then either.  I'm not a k3b expert but do
> use it sometimes. 
>
> Maybe one of these ideas floating around will help the OP. 

This and installing a recent version of the cdrtools should help the OP ;-)

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> rdalek1967@gmail.com wrote:
> > I wonder if he can unmerge growisofs?  Or at least remove the file. 
>
> In order to make it use cdrecord for DVD and BD ?
>
> (Cough.)
>
> growisofs is unsurpassed with DVD. I am a competitor of it

It seems that you are not correclty informed.

Many people reported problems even with writing DVDs using growisofs that went 
away after upgrading to cdrtools.

Note that I already mentioned that growisofs is a layzy written program that 
has many places where is returns the unly slightly modified result of a SCSI 
mode sense operation while running a SCSI mode select operation. As it only
slightly modifies the received data instead of constructing SCSI standard 
compliant data, these mode select operations do not always have the desired
effect.

This kind of problems is independent from the media type and as a result, 
growisofs of course also fails with DVDs for some users.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I wonder if he can unmerge growisofs?  Or at least remove the file. 
>
> Just a thought.

If growisofs is not available and if cdrecord at the same time is available,
k3b should (if everything works correctly) select cdrecord.

This may be a way to go.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Alexander Puchmayr]

On Mittwoch, 10. Juli 2013, 01:26:18 Dale wrote:
> Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > paulcol@andor.dropbear.id.au wrote:
> >>> "Settings" -> "Configure K3b" -> "Programs"
> > 
> > michaelkintzios@gmail.com wrote:
> >> This just displays what's there.  I can't change any of the listed
> >> programs
> >> from this screen.
> > 
> > So one should rather repair growisofs.
> > It is not a big deal.
> > 
> > 
> > Have a nice day :)
> > 
> > Thomas
> 
> I wonder if he can unmerge growisofs?  Or at least remove the file.
> 

I just made a simple test by renaming growisofs and then attemting to create a 
BD-RE disk (Re-recordables are nice, sine non-RW media don't grow in my garden 
;-)

Result: k3b complained that it cannot find growisofs and that it won't be 
possible to create DVDs. I tried to create a BD, so I continued, selected 
approximately 17GB of my foto-disk, and tried to write them. Immediately, 
k3b's write-disk dialog showed that mkisofs cannot find growisofs and then 
"mkisofs has crashed".

It was worth a try, but it didn't work.

Alex

PS: 
app-cdr/cdrtools-3.00
app-cdr/dvd+rw-tools-7.1-r1

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

> attemting to create a 
> BD-RE disk (Re-recordables are nice, sine non-RW media don't grow in my
> garden ;-)

Yeah. A BD-R tree would be a fine thing.

Note that growisofs on BD-RE would not show the bug at the end.
It happens only with BD-R which you submit in blank state.

If you treat your BD-R with dvd+rw-format before using them,
the bug should not show up.

If you can talk K3b into using growisofs option
  -use-the-force-luke=spare:none
then it will not format the blank BD-R, work with full nominal
speed, and should not show the bug. (There will be no Defect
Management. So there will be no checkreading and no replacement
of bad blocks.)

---------------------------------------------------------------

I wrote a mail to media-optical@gentoo.org, proposing the patch
for growisofs.
Regrettably there was no reaction yet.

Maybe if enough Gentoo users complain ...


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Mick]

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On Saturday 13 Jul 2013 11:08:07 Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > attemting to create a
> > BD-RE disk (Re-recordables are nice, sine non-RW media don't grow in my
> > garden ;-)
> 
> Yeah. A BD-R tree would be a fine thing.
> 
> Note that growisofs on BD-RE would not show the bug at the end.
> It happens only with BD-R which you submit in blank state.
> 
> If you treat your BD-R with dvd+rw-format before using them,
> the bug should not show up.
> 
> If you can talk K3b into using growisofs option
>   -use-the-force-luke=spare:none
> then it will not format the blank BD-R, work with full nominal
> speed, and should not show the bug. (There will be no Defect
> Management. So there will be no checkreading and no replacement
> of bad blocks.)
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I wrote a mail to media-optical@gentoo.org, proposing the patch
> for growisofs.
> Regrettably there was no reaction yet.
> 
> Maybe if enough Gentoo users complain ...


Hi Thomas, this problem can either be fixed by patching growisofs as you 
suggest, or by changing k3b to use cdrtools in preference to growisofs - not 
sure if this can be done with a USE flag.  The latter seems more reliable to 
me, because Joerg keeps his code up to date, but I don't know enough to make a 
case for either option.

Either way, perhaps the OP should file a quick bug report at 
https://bugs.gentoo.org/ and mention both options as a request.  Then the rest 
of us can chime in to encourage the devs to progress this.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 490 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

michaelkintzios@gmail.com:
> Hi Thomas, this problem can either be fixed by patching growisofs as you 
> suggest, or by changing k3b to use cdrtools in preference to growisofs

Joerg will heavily object, but my sincere opinion as
technical expert on this field is that growisofs is
the better choice.

I mentioned in this thread what i dislike about it.
Joerg added the fact that it is unmaintained since 5 years.

But aside from that, i cannot point to any reason why
growisofs is an inferior burn backend compared with my
own software which i try hard to make as good as possible.


> Joerg keeps his code up to date

Yep. Joerg and i seem to be the only active developers on
this field.

But there has nothing new happened with optical media since
Andy left the playground. If not for this BD-R bug, nobody
would care that growisofs is unmaintained.
Currently i have the impression that in most distros the
whole topic of optical media and their filesystems is
unmaintained or at least under-maintained.


cdrecord on DVD and BD suffers from Joerg's peculiar way to
read the specs (and to not disclose which paragraphs exactly,
when his understanding is brought into question).
His and my understanding of MMC seem fundamentally incompatible.

Obviously Andy Polykov read the same specs as i, when he
created dvd+rw-tools.

If people need technical support about growisofs, then i am
ready to help. I am subscribed to cdwrite@other.debian.org
which is the official place to submit bug reports and requests
for dvd+rw-tools.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Bruce Hill]

On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:08:07PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > attemting to create a 
> > BD-RE disk (Re-recordables are nice, sine non-RW media don't grow in my
> > garden ;-)
> 
> Yeah. A BD-R tree would be a fine thing.
> 
> Note that growisofs on BD-RE would not show the bug at the end.
> It happens only with BD-R which you submit in blank state.
> 
> If you treat your BD-R with dvd+rw-format before using them,
> the bug should not show up.
> 
> If you can talk K3b into using growisofs option
>   -use-the-force-luke=spare:none
> then it will not format the blank BD-R, work with full nominal
> speed, and should not show the bug. (There will be no Defect
> Management. So there will be no checkreading and no replacement
> of bad blocks.)
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I wrote a mail to media-optical@gentoo.org, proposing the patch
> for growisofs.
> Regrettably there was no reaction yet.
> 
> Maybe if enough Gentoo users complain ...
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
 
The proper place to submit a patch in Gentoo is bugs.gentoo.org

Thanks for your efforts, Thomas.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.                                                                                                                                                          
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?                                                                                                                                                                                        
A: Top-posting.                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

> The proper place to submit a patch in Gentoo is bugs.gentoo.org

I encounter obstacles like having no account and running no Gentoo.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Bruce Hill]

On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 03:38:28PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > The proper place to submit a patch in Gentoo is bugs.gentoo.org
> 
> I encounter obstacles like having no account and running no Gentoo.

An account is required, running Gentoo is not.

Maybe you can convince someone who is interested in K3B to do this for you. I
personally don't let anything beginning with a K on any computer that I own,
build, or service. And also, I use these tools in CLI, without any frontend to
muck things up.

Just letting you know that Gentoo is a community distro, and the $PATH for
submitting patches to get attention is bugs.gentoo.org.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.                                                                                                                                                          
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?                                                                                                                                                                                        
A: Top-posting.                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

> An account is required, running Gentoo is not.

I understood it was for users who encounter bugs in Gentoo.
That would be Alex, the OP.

As i stressed too much already, the growisofs bug should be
fixed in any case.

If it is possible to let K3b use cdrecord for DVD and BD,
then i would apply for enabling my program cdrskin, too.
(Actually i think it would be easier to emulate growisofs
 capabilities by cdrskin than by cdrecord.)


> I personally don't let anything beginning with a K on any computer
> that I own

I am still on fvwm2. :))


> And also, I use these tools in CLI, without any frontend
> to muck things up.

A potential user of my xorriso, then.
("xo" stands for X/Open, not for X Window System)


> Just letting you know that Gentoo is a community distro,

They all are. I try to be a good upstream for them.

My apologies for insisting heavily.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Bruce Hill]

On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 07:03:15PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > An account is required, running Gentoo is not.
> 
> I understood it was for users who encounter bugs in Gentoo.
> That would be Alex, the OP.

My reply was to you, Thomas, rather than the OP, because you wrote:

"I wrote a mail to media-optical@gentoo.org, proposing the patch                                                                                                                                                                
for growisofs.                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

Regrettably there was no reaction yet.                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Maybe if enough Gentoo users complain ... "

Therefore, I was letting _you_ know that the proper place to submit a patch to
a Gentoo pkg is BGO.

However, your patch is for growisofs, which in Gentoo comes from
app-cdr/dvd+rw-tools, so the proper place for such patch would be
<cdwrite@other.debian.org> per http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ --

"As of May 2003 I've decided to advise users to turn to
<cdwrite@other.debian.org> on support matters. It's an open list, meaning that
you don't have to be subscribed to post a problem report.

Generally speaking, most of my patches have gotten proper
review/recognition/inclusion/rejection when sent to the proper source."

IIRC you mentioned in another email being subscribed to that list.

Just curious...if you don't use Gentoo, why do you subscribe to gentoo-user
list?

Cheers,
Bruce
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.                                                                                                                                                          
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?                                                                                                                                                                                        
A: Top-posting.                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

> However, your patch is for growisofs, which in Gentoo comes from
> app-cdr/dvd+rw-tools, so the proper place for such patch would be
> <cdwrite@other.debian.org> per http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ --

On that list there was support by Andy Polykov until shortly
after the bug in question was reported. A fixed release was
promised but did not emerge. See
  http://lists.debian.org/cdwrite/2008/07/msg00092.html


> IIRC you mentioned in another email being subscribed to that list.

Yep. Until 2007 as user of growisofs. For a short while as
friendly competitor. Now as its sentinel, so nobody has reason
to regret having tried burning DVD on Linux.


> Just curious...if you don't use Gentoo, why do you subscribe to
> gentoo-user list?

The topic came up from a side note on cdrkit's mailing list.
The Fedora maintainer of growisofs asked whether i know more
about the problem. I pointed to above post by Andy, re-read it
and recognized that he left a treasure map to find the bug.

After getting confirmation that the proposed fix works, i googled
for similar bug reports in various distros.

An archive of the gentoo-user list was among the found sites.
My first mail to the list did not show up. So i subscribed a day
later and sent it again.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Bruce Hill]

On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 08:15:23PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > However, your patch is for growisofs, which in Gentoo comes from
> > app-cdr/dvd+rw-tools, so the proper place for such patch would be
> > <cdwrite@other.debian.org> per http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ --
> 
> On that list there was support by Andy Polykov until shortly
> after the bug in question was reported. A fixed release was
> promised but did not emerge. See
>   http://lists.debian.org/cdwrite/2008/07/msg00092.html
> 
> 
> > IIRC you mentioned in another email being subscribed to that list.
> 
> Yep. Until 2007 as user of growisofs. For a short while as
> friendly competitor. Now as its sentinel, so nobody has reason
> to regret having tried burning DVD on Linux.
> 
> 
> > Just curious...if you don't use Gentoo, why do you subscribe to
> > gentoo-user list?
> 
> The topic came up from a side note on cdrkit's mailing list.
> The Fedora maintainer of growisofs asked whether i know more
> about the problem. I pointed to above post by Andy, re-read it
> and recognized that he left a treasure map to find the bug.
> 
> After getting confirmation that the proposed fix works, i googled
> for similar bug reports in various distros.
> 
> An archive of the gentoo-user list was among the found sites.
> My first mail to the list did not show up. So i subscribed a day
> later and sent it again.

Okay, then, is your patch necessary when using this command:
growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/sr0=image.iso

with a DVD? Or is this only applicable to BR? Because I don't own any BluRay
discs, or players.

If it's applicable to DVD, since I use the above command, you could send me
the patch and I'd apply it to app-cdr/dvd+rw-tools-7.1-r1 in Gentoo and give
it a test drive.

I do remember that in the past I've experienced a similar error where it
appeared to me that growisofs seemed not to close media, but the data on the
DVD was fine, so I didn't pursue it.

Cheers,
Bruce
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.                                                                                                                                                          
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?                                                                                                                                                                                        
A: Top-posting.                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

> Okay, then, is your patch necessary when using this command:
> growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/sr0=image.iso
> with a DVD?

No. I do not know about any growisofs flaws with DVD.

(Besides its -use-the-force-luke magic which is reserved
 for those who read growisofs.c additionally to its man page.)


> Because I don't own any BluRay discs, or players.

The bug fix has an effect only if you submit a blank BD-R.
It is necessary if one cannot live with growisofs reporting error
and returning a non-zero exit value.

There are rumors that the inappropriate command spoils the burn.
But this is not very plausible because the Pseudo Overwrite
burn is already done when the error happens.


> I do remember that in the past I've experienced a similar error where it
> appeared to me that growisofs seemed not to close media, but the data on the
> DVD was fine, so I didn't pursue it.

That must have been something else.

Closing the medium should indeed happen with -dvd-compat.
But of course one cannot close DVD+RW, formatted DVD-RW, DVD-RAM,
or BD-RE ... and obviously not Pseudo Overwrite BD-R.

dvd+rw-mediainfo would have told what's up with the medium
after the burn. (It helps to have a copy of MMC specs at hand
when reading its output.)


My offer holds: I am willing to investigate any burn problems.
Be it with my own software or the one of others.
(I must restrict my offer insofar that i will not waste lots
 of expensive one-time media for mistakes which i did not make
 myself.)

A typical first experiment will be to use my own software
with the problematic combination of burner and medium.
This shall not mean that in the end i will urge people to
switch to my stuff. The goal will be to find out what's
wrong with the user's situation and how to possibly fix it.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > Okay, then, is your patch necessary when using this command:
> > growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/sr0=image.iso
> > with a DVD?
>
> No. I do not know about any growisofs flaws with DVD.

As mentioned before: growisofs does not correctly follow the SCSI standard
and as a result, it does not work with all drives. In addition, growisofs does 
not know about firmware bugs and this also causes problems with some drives.

It's source is compiled using the C++ compiler, but inside it looks like 
assembly. If the original author does no longer support it, more than small 
changes are not worth being done.

I would be interested if anyone misses specific features from growisofs in 
cdrecord. 

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > However, your patch is for growisofs, which in Gentoo comes from
> > app-cdr/dvd+rw-tools, so the proper place for such patch would be
> > <cdwrite@other.debian.org> per http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ --
>
> On that list there was support by Andy Polykov until shortly
> after the bug in question was reported. A fixed release was
> promised but did not emerge. See
>   http://lists.debian.org/cdwrite/2008/07/msg00092.html

The mailing list at cdwrite@other.debian.org delivers aprox 20x more spam than 
useful content. Since Debian attacked cdrtools, people lost interest in 
discussing things on that list and the useful messages on that list are now
negligible.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > An account is required, running Gentoo is not.
>
> I understood it was for users who encounter bugs in Gentoo.
> That would be Alex, the OP.
>
> As i stressed too much already, the growisofs bug should be
> fixed in any case.
>
> If it is possible to let K3b use cdrecord for DVD and BD,
> then i would apply for enabling my program cdrskin, too.
> (Actually i think it would be easier to emulate growisofs
>  capabilities by cdrskin than by cdrecord.)

k3b does not need the CLI interface from growisofs and happily works with the 
CLI from cdrecord.


Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Alexander Puchmayr <alexander.puchmayr@linznet.at> wrote:

> I just made a simple test by renaming growisofs and then attemting to create a 
> BD-RE disk (Re-recordables are nice, sine non-RW media don't grow in my garden 
> ;-)
>
> Result: k3b complained that it cannot find growisofs and that it won't be 
> possible to create DVDs. I tried to create a BD, so I continued, selected 
> approximately 17GB of my foto-disk, and tried to write them. Immediately, 
> k3b's write-disk dialog showed that mkisofs cannot find growisofs and then 
> "mkisofs has crashed".
>
> It was worth a try, but it didn't work.
>
> Alex
>
> PS: 
> app-cdr/cdrtools-3.00
> app-cdr/dvd+rw-tools-7.1-r1

I positively know that an unmodified k3b looks for /op/schily/bin/cdrecord first.
This has been introduced a few years ago and I checked it at that time.


So how about fetching a recent cdrtools from:

	ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/cdrecord/alpha/

and call "make install"?

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > cdrecord is installed, I have no idea why k3b chose to use growisofs for
> > > creating the >10G isofs.
> > > 
> > > I did not try cdrecord (How can I change which programs k3b uses?)
> > 
> > "Settings" -> "Configure K3b" -> "Programs"
>
> This just displays what's there.  I can't change any of the listed programs 
> from this screen.

A few years ago, I have been told by the k3b people that k3b was modified to 
automatically prefer cdrecord in case it is present.

Maybe you should ask the k3b maintainer from Gentoo whether there was a Gentoo 
specific change...

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 911 bytes --]

On Wednesday 10 Jul 2013 08:57:07 Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > cdrecord is installed, I have no idea why k3b chose to use growisofs
> > > > for creating the >10G isofs.
> > > > 
> > > > I did not try cdrecord (How can I change which programs k3b uses?)
> > > 
> > > "Settings" -> "Configure K3b" -> "Programs"
> > 
> > This just displays what's there.  I can't change any of the listed
> > programs from this screen.
> 
> A few years ago, I have been told by the k3b people that k3b was modified
> to automatically prefer cdrecord in case it is present.
> 
> Maybe you should ask the k3b maintainer from Gentoo whether there was a
> Gentoo specific change...

Thanks Jörg, it may well do, but since I do not burn DVDs all that often I 
can't recall what the log showed last time.  I will keep in mind to check next 
time.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 490 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Paul Hartman]

On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Alexander Puchmayr
<alexander.puchmayr@linznet.at> wrote:
> I just burned all my pictures from my last vacation on a blueray-disk using
> k3b, and for no apparent reason it stoped at 99.8% and complained an error
> (I/O error). I checked the logs (see attached file), but could not find a hint.
> I compared each and every file on the disk with its original, but yould not find
> any problem.

Maybe it is same as described in this bug:

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=255483

I don't use k3b but I know when I burn a 25GB disc image using
growisofs, I have to disable the spare sectors otherwise it won't fit
on the disc, and it burns all the way until the end where it fails,
rather than "knowing" ahead of time that it won't fit.

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Alexander Puchmayr]

On Sonntag, 7. Juli 2013, 17:19:30 Paul Hartman wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Alexander Puchmayr
> 
> <alexander.puchmayr@linznet.at> wrote:
> > I just burned all my pictures from my last vacation on a blueray-disk
> > using
> > k3b, and for no apparent reason it stoped at 99.8% and complained an error
> > (I/O error). I checked the logs (see attached file), but could not find a
> > hint. I compared each and every file on the disk with its original, but
> > yould not find any problem.
> 
> Maybe it is same as described in this bug:
> 
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=255483
> 
> I don't use k3b but I know when I burn a 25GB disc image using
> growisofs, I have to disable the spare sectors otherwise it won't fit
> on the disc, and it burns all the way until the end where it fails,
> rather than "knowing" ahead of time that it won't fit.
> 

Don't think so, since the media I've burnt were 10G and 22G large.

Alex

Re: [gentoo-user] k3b burning BD-Disk pretends to fail at 99.99%

[Joerg Schilling]

Alexander Puchmayr <alexander.puchmayr@linznet.at> wrote:

> > I don't use k3b but I know when I burn a 25GB disc image using
> > growisofs, I have to disable the spare sectors otherwise it won't fit
> > on the disc, and it burns all the way until the end where it fails,
> > rather than "knowing" ahead of time that it won't fit.
> > 
>
> Don't think so, since the media I've burnt were 10G and 22G large.

What growisofs definitely causes with formatting the media is to make it slow.

Growisofs is not a cleanly writen application. It frequently returns slightly 
modified mode data to the drive that was fetched before from the drive. The way 
this new data is created is in conflict with the SCSI standard. Some drives 
still accept the data others do not. In some cases, sending back identical data
will even switch the drive into unwanted behavior. A quick statement could be:
It was written in C++ but looks like assembly code.... Note that there was no 
update since 5 years and several people reported less problems when using 
cdrecord instead of growisofs.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js@cs.tu-berlin.de                (uni)  
       joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily