[gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Mick]

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Hi All,

I am considering my options for a new rig destined to last a few years and one 
of the Dell machines on offer has this Intel SRT fake-raid feature, which 
after some cursory googling, I am not entirely sure will work with Linux.

Have you any experience with this and perhaps know if a Linux driver is being 
developed?

As a side issue, I am not sure whether to fork out for an i7 Haswell, or go 
for good ol' AMD FX-8350 ...

Is the single thread i7 superiority going to trump AMDs 8 real cores for web 
development, image editing and browsing activities?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Alan McKinnon]

On 25/06/2013 21:10, Mick wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I am considering my options for a new rig destined to last a few years and one 
> of the Dell machines on offer has this Intel SRT fake-raid feature, which 
> after some cursory googling, I am not entirely sure will work with Linux.

bah, that fake-raid. Just discard it completely, it's a way for windows
uses who don't have lvm-awesomeness to have big drives and not have to
do anything to get it.

Just use lvm and/or software raid to do the job right. You will not
regret using the appropriate tool for the job like this.

> 
> Have you any experience with this and perhaps know if a Linux driver is being 
> developed?

See above. REAL hardware raid that out-performs Linux software tools is
very expensive. If you need that and have the budget, well then good.
Otherwise, that Dell stuff is motherboard bloat

> 
> As a side issue, I am not sure whether to fork out for an i7 Haswell, or go 
> for good ol' AMD FX-8350 ...
> 
> Is the single thread i7 superiority going to trump AMDs 8 real cores for web 
> development, image editing and browsing activities?

Your cell phone will cope with that work load just fine

Don't stress about it, your question is on the order of magnitude of
wondering if 5 horses or 4 camels are better for carrying one paper bag
of groceries home from the supermarket. The truth is, the basket in
front of granny's bicycle is perfectly adequate, and probably faster too


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Mick]

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On Tuesday 25 Jun 2013 21:59:20 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 25/06/2013 21:10, Mick wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > I am considering my options for a new rig destined to last a few years
> > and one of the Dell machines on offer has this Intel SRT fake-raid
> > feature, which after some cursory googling, I am not entirely sure will
> > work with Linux.
> 
> bah, that fake-raid. Just discard it completely, it's a way for windows
> uses who don't have lvm-awesomeness to have big drives and not have to
> do anything to get it.

I think it is used to RAID the SSD onto the hard drive, so that it can be 
replicated onto a new SSD if/when the original goes bad.


> Just use lvm and/or software raid to do the job right. You will not
> regret using the appropriate tool for the job like this.

OK, so dmraid and mdadm will do the same for Linux?

How do people mirror their SD onto the SATA, or what is the recommended way to 
safeguard the SSD installed OS?


> > As a side issue, I am not sure whether to fork out for an i7 Haswell, or
> > go for good ol' AMD FX-8350 ...
> > 
> > Is the single thread i7 superiority going to trump AMDs 8 real cores for
> > web development, image editing and browsing activities?
> 
> Your cell phone will cope with that work load just fine

Ha!  I'm still using an old Nokia feature phone and I mostly use it to make 
telephone calls!  O_O


> Don't stress about it, your question is on the order of magnitude of
> wondering if 5 horses or 4 camels are better for carrying one paper bag
> of groceries home from the supermarket. The truth is, the basket in
> front of granny's bicycle is perfectly adequate, and probably faster too

LOL!!

So, you're saying that other than at compile time I won't notice the 
difference?

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Alan McKinnon]

On 25/06/2013 23:44, Mick wrote:
> On Tuesday 25 Jun 2013 21:59:20 Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> On 25/06/2013 21:10, Mick wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I am considering my options for a new rig destined to last a few years
>>> and one of the Dell machines on offer has this Intel SRT fake-raid
>>> feature, which after some cursory googling, I am not entirely sure will
>>> work with Linux.
>>
>> bah, that fake-raid. Just discard it completely, it's a way for windows
>> uses who don't have lvm-awesomeness to have big drives and not have to
>> do anything to get it.
> 
> I think it is used to RAID the SSD onto the hard drive, so that it can be 
> replicated onto a new SSD if/when the original goes bad.

This is a laptop right?

That makes no sense - when you mirror RAID an SSD onto a spinning disk,
you get a combined drive the size of the spinning disk and the SSD
becomes a fashion accessory. Which is why Dell usually disable RAIDing
an SSD and regular disk in the purchase options

> 
> 
>> Just use lvm and/or software raid to do the job right. You will not
>> regret using the appropriate tool for the job like this.
> 
> OK, so dmraid and mdadm will do the same for Linux?

Yes

> 
> How do people mirror their SD onto the SATA, or what is the recommended way to 
> safeguard the SSD installed OS?

You copy it. You do not raid it. With two disks, just rsync over
whatever you need whenever you need to do it.

Unless that is, Dell's website is using the PR/Marketing definition of
what RAID is. By definition, no-one that ever reads this mailing list
can understand that definition

> 
> 
>>> As a side issue, I am not sure whether to fork out for an i7 Haswell, or
>>> go for good ol' AMD FX-8350 ...
>>>
>>> Is the single thread i7 superiority going to trump AMDs 8 real cores for
>>> web development, image editing and browsing activities?
>>
>> Your cell phone will cope with that work load just fine
> 
> Ha!  I'm still using an old Nokia feature phone and I mostly use it to make 
> telephone calls!  O_O
> 
> 
>> Don't stress about it, your question is on the order of magnitude of
>> wondering if 5 horses or 4 camels are better for carrying one paper bag
>> of groceries home from the supermarket. The truth is, the basket in
>> front of granny's bicycle is perfectly adequate, and probably faster too
> 
> LOL!!
> 
> So, you're saying that other than at compile time I won't notice the 
> difference?

You will notice the grunt those i7s can deliver when you start to do
this (sort of typical for mine...):

3 virtualbox vms running, 1 Windows for IE and Office
30 tabs open in firefox
emerge world going on set to -j32 -l8
30-odd konsole tabs open, often more than half tailing a log file at
 more than 200 lines a minute
the usual desktop apps (mail, skype, movie playing in one corner)

I sort of just keep loading it up till I run out of things to leave
open, and never notice the difference. This is an 8 core i7 with 16G RAM
and 128G SSD - complete total overkill for any rational usage, even a
busy devops sysadmin - but we get good prices on the company corporate
account

It all comes down to what you really *need* as opposed to how much
techie-bling you *want* :-)

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> You will notice the grunt those i7s can deliver when you start to do
> this (sort of typical for mine...): 3 virtualbox vms running, 1
> Windows for IE and Office 30 tabs open in firefox emerge world going
> on set to -j32 -l8 30-odd konsole tabs open, often more than half
> tailing a log file at more than 200 lines a minute the usual desktop
> apps (mail, skype, movie playing in one corner) I sort of just keep
> loading it up till I run out of things to leave open, and never notice
> the difference. This is an 8 core i7 with 16G RAM and 128G SSD -
> complete total overkill for any rational usage, even a busy devops
> sysadmin - but we get good prices on the company corporate account It
> all comes down to what you really *need* as opposed to how much
> techie-bling you *want* :-) 

I'll add this to Alan's reply which is good advice.  I have a 4 core AMD
CPU @3.2Ghz with 16Gbs of ram.  For normal stuff, most of it is sitting
idle.  About the only time I could use more than one core is during
compiling.  The way I do this when I build a rig, or helping someone
else buy a pre-built one, is to try to look at what you need and then
get the most bang for the buck that suites those needs.  If you need or
must have bleeding edge speed, you will have to pay for it.  If you
don't need bleeding edge, drop down a notch or two and speed the money
on a better video card, larger hard drive or just pocket the extra for
repairs/upgrades down the road. 

I never buy the latest greatest CPU, mobo or other hardware because I
rarely need that and by dropping down a notch or two, I can save a good
chunk of change.  Even with that, the system will do all I need and then
some.  I get about 8 years out of a build, generally. 

That said, when the price of those 8 core CPUs come down some more, I'll
be upgrading a bit.  ;-) 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[J. Roeleveld]

On Wed, June 26, 2013 01:29, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 25/06/2013 23:44, Mick wrote:
>> On Tuesday 25 Jun 2013 21:59:20 Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>
>
> Unless that is, Dell's website is using the PR/Marketing definition of
> what RAID is. By definition, no-one that ever reads this mailing list
> can understand that definition

Got a direct link to that definition? :)

>>> Don't stress about it, your question is on the order of magnitude of
>>> wondering if 5 horses or 4 camels are better for carrying one paper bag
>>> of groceries home from the supermarket. The truth is, the basket in
>>> front of granny's bicycle is perfectly adequate, and probably faster
>>> too
>>
>> LOL!!

Will need to remember this one.

>> So, you're saying that other than at compile time I won't notice the
>> difference?
>
> You will notice the grunt those i7s can deliver when you start to do
> this (sort of typical for mine...):
>
> 3 virtualbox vms running, 1 Windows for IE and Office
> 30 tabs open in firefox
> emerge world going on set to -j32 -l8
> 30-odd konsole tabs open, often more than half tailing a log file at
>  more than 200 lines a minute
> the usual desktop apps (mail, skype, movie playing in one corner)
>
> I sort of just keep loading it up till I run out of things to leave
> open, and never notice the difference. This is an 8 core i7 with 16G RAM
> and 128G SSD - complete total overkill for any rational usage, even a
> busy devops sysadmin - but we get good prices on the company corporate
> account

Can you give me the full speclist of your machine with the part-numbers?
I am checking if a new machine will fit my budget and your workload looks
similar to mine :)

> It all comes down to what you really *need* as opposed to how much
> techie-bling you *want* :-)

The *need* versus *want* is always important to keep in mind.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Alan McKinnon]

On 26/06/2013 08:32, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>> I sort of just keep loading it up till I run out of things to leave
>> > open, and never notice the difference. This is an 8 core i7 with 16G RAM
>> > and 128G SSD - complete total overkill for any rational usage, even a
>> > busy devops sysadmin - but we get good prices on the company corporate
>> > account
> Can you give me the full speclist of your machine with the part-numbers?
> I am checking if a new machine will fit my budget and your workload looks
> similar to mine :)

It's a Dell Precision M4600, and you find it in the Workstation section
on Dell's website. It's since been superceded by the M4700 which is
really just a point upgrade.

CPU:
processor       : 0
vendor_id       : GenuineIntel
cpu family      : 6
model           : 42
model name      : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2720QM CPU @ 2.20GHz

cpu prices vary hugely so I picked a mid-range i7 and used the saving to
get 16G ram and maxed out the storage.
ATI display to get away from nVidia, I think that was a mistake and next
time will be going back to nVidia whose power management actually works.
There was some uber-fancy active display on offer too, but I don't need that

Battery life is shocking :-), make sure you get 9-cell high capacity
batteries, my standard 6 cell has *<60 minutes* life. The wife has one
too and her's lasts about 100 minutes using Windows

Cost was ZAR 20k, I don't know if that means anything to you, it's hard
to relate ZA prices with price of living in EU

> 
>> > It all comes down to what you really *need* as opposed to how much
>> > techie-bling you *want* :-)
> The *need* versus *want* is always important to keep in mind.

My employer is generous with laptop allowance and long ago stopped
trying to tell those two apart :-)

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[J. Roeleveld]

On Wed, June 26, 2013 10:17, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 26/06/2013 08:32, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>>> I sort of just keep loading it up till I run out of things to leave
>>> > open, and never notice the difference. This is an 8 core i7 with 16G
>>> RAM
>>> > and 128G SSD - complete total overkill for any rational usage, even a
>>> > busy devops sysadmin - but we get good prices on the company
>>> corporate
>>> > account
>> Can you give me the full speclist of your machine with the part-numbers?
>> I am checking if a new machine will fit my budget and your workload
>> looks
>> similar to mine :)
>
> It's a Dell Precision M4600, and you find it in the Workstation section
> on Dell's website. It's since been superceded by the M4700 which is
> really just a point upgrade.
>
> CPU:
> processor       : 0
> vendor_id       : GenuineIntel
> cpu family      : 6
> model           : 42
> model name      : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2720QM CPU @ 2.20GHz
>
> cpu prices vary hugely so I picked a mid-range i7 and used the saving to
> get 16G ram and maxed out the storage.
> ATI display to get away from nVidia, I think that was a mistake and next
> time will be going back to nVidia whose power management actually works.
> There was some uber-fancy active display on offer too, but I don't need
> that
>
> Battery life is shocking :-), make sure you get 9-cell high capacity
> batteries, my standard 6 cell has *<60 minutes* life. The wife has one
> too and her's lasts about 100 minutes using Windows

I tend to use a desktop at home and the only personal "laptop" is an Asus
EEE901 (with 16GB SSD)
Other laptops in the house are provided by my employer and customers.

> Cost was ZAR 20k, I don't know if that means anything to you, it's hard
> to relate ZA prices with price of living in EU

20k Rand = 1.5k Euro. Sounds about right for a performing laptop.

The price of living in EU depends a lot on which country you live in.
Problem is, the wages don't always match the cost properly.

>>> > It all comes down to what you really *need* as opposed to how much
>>> > techie-bling you *want* :-)
>> The *need* versus *want* is always important to keep in mind.
>
> My employer is generous with laptop allowance and long ago stopped
> trying to tell those two apart :-)

That sounds familiar for larger corporations in S.A. :)

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Alan McKinnon]

On 26/06/2013 10:39, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>> Cost was ZAR 20k, I don't know if that means anything to you, it's hard
>> > to relate ZA prices with price of living in EU
> 20k Rand = 1.5k Euro. Sounds about right for a performing laptop.
> 
> The price of living in EU depends a lot on which country you live in.
> Problem is, the wages don't always match the cost properly.
> 


R20k is about the monthly wage in Joburg for a young developer with good
education, 3 years experience, good attitude, mid-level skills and a
portfolio with nice stuff in it

Or, about the price 3 top-line iPads

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[J. Roeleveld]

On Wed, June 26, 2013 10:53, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 26/06/2013 10:39, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>>> Cost was ZAR 20k, I don't know if that means anything to you, it's hard
>>> > to relate ZA prices with price of living in EU
>> 20k Rand = 1.5k Euro. Sounds about right for a performing laptop.
>>
>> The price of living in EU depends a lot on which country you live in.
>> Problem is, the wages don't always match the cost properly.
>>
>
>
> R20k is about the monthly wage in Joburg for a young developer with good
> education, 3 years experience, good attitude, mid-level skills and a
> portfolio with nice stuff in it

Is that before or after the government came round to take the part they
feel they are entitled to?

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Alan McKinnon]

On 26/06/2013 11:13, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Wed, June 26, 2013 10:53, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> On 26/06/2013 10:39, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>>>> Cost was ZAR 20k, I don't know if that means anything to you, it's hard
>>>>> to relate ZA prices with price of living in EU
>>> 20k Rand = 1.5k Euro. Sounds about right for a performing laptop.
>>>
>>> The price of living in EU depends a lot on which country you live in.
>>> Problem is, the wages don't always match the cost properly.
>>>
>>
>>
>> R20k is about the monthly wage in Joburg for a young developer with good
>> education, 3 years experience, good attitude, mid-level skills and a
>> portfolio with nice stuff in it
> 
> Is that before or after the government came round to take the part they
> feel they are entitled to?


Before.

Once the Receiver of Revenge is done with you, the balance is just about
enough to cover one loaf of bread


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[J. Roeleveld]

On Wed, June 26, 2013 11:21, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 26/06/2013 11:13, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>> On Wed, June 26, 2013 10:53, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>> On 26/06/2013 10:39, J. Roeleveld wrote:
>>>>> Cost was ZAR 20k, I don't know if that means anything to you, it's
>>>>> hard
>>>>>> to relate ZA prices with price of living in EU
>>>> 20k Rand = 1.5k Euro. Sounds about right for a performing laptop.
>>>>
>>>> The price of living in EU depends a lot on which country you live in.
>>>> Problem is, the wages don't always match the cost properly.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> R20k is about the monthly wage in Joburg for a young developer with
>>> good
>>> education, 3 years experience, good attitude, mid-level skills and a
>>> portfolio with nice stuff in it
>>
>> Is that before or after the government came round to take the part they
>> feel they are entitled to?
>
>
> Before.
>
> Once the Receiver of Revenge is done with you, the balance is just about
> enough to cover one loaf of bread

Better invest in a bow and couple of arrows then... I believe there is
plenty of wildlife around that could feed a family for a while ;)

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Mick]

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On Wednesday 26 Jun 2013 09:17:37 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 26/06/2013 08:32, J. Roeleveld wrote:

> > Can you give me the full speclist of your machine with the part-numbers?
> > I am checking if a new machine will fit my budget and your workload looks
> > similar to mine :)
> 
> It's a Dell Precision M4600, and you find it in the Workstation section
> on Dell's website. It's since been superceded by the M4700 which is
> really just a point upgrade.
> 
> CPU:
> processor       : 0
> vendor_id       : GenuineIntel
> cpu family      : 6
> model           : 42
> model name      : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2720QM CPU @ 2.20GHz

I am using the 1st generation of the same CPU on I guess an older dell studio 
XPS:

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU       Q 720  @ 1.60GHz

> cpu prices vary hugely so I picked a mid-range i7 and used the saving to
> get 16G ram and maxed out the storage.
> ATI display to get away from nVidia, I think that was a mistake and next
> time will be going back to nVidia whose power management actually works.
> There was some uber-fancy active display on offer too, but I don't need
> that

Have you tried to change the default power setting for your video card?

I have this card:

           *-display
                description: VGA compatible controller
                product: RV730/M96-XT [Mobility Radeon HD 4670]
                vendor: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI
                physical id: 0
                bus info: pci@0000:02:00.0
                version: 00
                width: 32 bits
                clock: 33MHz
                capabilities: pm pciexpress msi vga_controller bus_master 
cap_list rom
                configuration: driver=radeon latency=0
                resources: irq:45 memory:d0000000-dfffffff 
ioport:2000(size=256) memory:cfef0000-cfefffff memory:cfe00000-cfe1ffff

and have this little file auto-switching my video cards fan from running non-
stop:

cat /etc/local.d/set_radeon_power_profile.start 
echo auto > /sys/class/drm/card0/device/power_profile

Apparently, the binary fglrx driver manages power switching more effectively, 
but with the radeon driver you'll need to switch it yourself.  I can't recall 
what I might have had to enable in the kernel, but if you can't get it going 
let me know and I'll poke around my .config.


> Battery life is shocking :-), make sure you get 9-cell high capacity
> batteries, my standard 6 cell has *<60 minutes* life. The wife has one
> too and her's lasts about 100 minutes using Windows

I have the 9-cell battery and it lasts > than 60  minutes while playing video, 
browsing, emailing, opening and closing spreadsheets, etc. despite being 
almost 4 years old.  Since I've set it to auto for video card power management 
the battery last longer.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Alan McKinnon]

On 26/06/2013 16:28, Mick wrote:
> I have this card:
> 
>            *-display
>                 description: VGA compatible controller
>                 product: RV730/M96-XT [Mobility Radeon HD 4670]
>                 vendor: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI
>                 physical id: 0
>                 bus info: pci@0000:02:00.0
>                 version: 00
>                 width: 32 bits
>                 clock: 33MHz
>                 capabilities: pm pciexpress msi vga_controller bus_master 
> cap_list rom
>                 configuration: driver=radeon latency=0
>                 resources: irq:45 memory:d0000000-dfffffff 
> ioport:2000(size=256) memory:cfef0000-cfefffff memory:cfe00000-cfe1ffff
> 
> and have this little file auto-switching my video cards fan from running non-
> stop:
> 
> cat /etc/local.d/set_radeon_power_profile.start 
> echo auto > /sys/class/drm/card0/device/power_profile


I did try that once, and somehow it went horribly wrong - the machine
became *very* unresponsive to keyboard and mouse, as if it was applying
huge amounts of CPU throttling (not freq scaling)

So I gave up. I never use this machine as a classic laptop anyway, to me
it's a desk workstation that I can suspend and carry home in a  backpack
with ease, so it's always plugged into power to use :-)

I only ever need the battery for maximum 20 minutes in review meetings
every two weeks, so I just kinda learned to live with it....

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Mick]

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On Thursday 27 Jun 2013 09:19:02 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 26/06/2013 16:28, Mick wrote:

> > cat /etc/local.d/set_radeon_power_profile.start 
> > echo auto > /sys/class/drm/card0/device/power_profile
> 
> I did try that once, and somehow it went horribly wrong - the machine
> became *very* unresponsive to keyboard and mouse, as if it was applying
> huge amounts of CPU throttling (not freq scaling)

Hmm ... interesting.  I do not get any such problems.  I have set up 
/sys/class/drm/card0/device/power_method to 'profile' and power_profile to 
'auto' as shown above and the fan behaviour is comparable to MSWindows.  Are 
you sure you did not try 'low' instead of 'auto'?

Perhaps leaving power_profile at default and using 'dynpm' at power_method may 
work better?  Have a look here:

  https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ATI

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Alan McKinnon]

On 27/06/2013 12:00, Mick wrote:
> On Thursday 27 Jun 2013 09:19:02 Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> On 26/06/2013 16:28, Mick wrote:
> 
>>> cat /etc/local.d/set_radeon_power_profile.start 
>>> echo auto > /sys/class/drm/card0/device/power_profile
>>
>> I did try that once, and somehow it went horribly wrong - the machine
>> became *very* unresponsive to keyboard and mouse, as if it was applying
>> huge amounts of CPU throttling (not freq scaling)
> 
> Hmm ... interesting.  I do not get any such problems.  I have set up 
> /sys/class/drm/card0/device/power_method to 'profile' and power_profile to 
> 'auto' as shown above and the fan behaviour is comparable to MSWindows.  Are 
> you sure you did not try 'low' instead of 'auto'?
> 
> Perhaps leaving power_profile at default and using 'dynpm' at power_method may 
> work better?  Have a look here:
> 
>   https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ATI
> 


I'll give that a try.

I may have just had bad luck back when or even done it wrong. I don't
*really* need this to work, I only brought it up because the OCD
engineer in me freaks out with optimizations I find I can't use. And
also because many other folk do need maximum battery life


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[pk]

On 2013-06-26 10:17, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> ATI display to get away from nVidia, I think that was a mistake and next
> time will be going back to nVidia whose power management actually works.

Just a small note:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM5NjE

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Mick]

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On Wednesday 26 Jun 2013 00:29:04 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 25/06/2013 23:44, Mick wrote:
> > On Tuesday 25 Jun 2013 21:59:20 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> On 25/06/2013 21:10, Mick wrote:

> > I think it is used to RAID the SSD onto the hard drive, so that it can be
> > replicated onto a new SSD if/when the original goes bad.
> 
> This is a laptop right?

No, I am hunting for a replacement desktop.


> > How do people mirror their SD onto the SATA, or what is the recommended
> > way to safeguard the SSD installed OS?
> 
> You copy it. You do not raid it. With two disks, just rsync over
> whatever you need whenever you need to do it.

Do you automate this, or just do it after the system has been updated/changed?



> You will notice the grunt those i7s can deliver when you start to do
> this (sort of typical for mine...):
> 
> 3 virtualbox vms running, 1 Windows for IE and Office
> 30 tabs open in firefox
> emerge world going on set to -j32 -l8
> 30-odd konsole tabs open, often more than half tailing a log file at
>  more than 200 lines a minute
> the usual desktop apps (mail, skype, movie playing in one corner)

  O_O

You are right, I will *never* notice the difference between the two CPUs ...



> I sort of just keep loading it up till I run out of things to leave
> open, and never notice the difference. This is an 8 core i7 with 16G RAM

I guess you mean 4 core + hyperthreading?


> and 128G SSD - complete total overkill for any rational usage, even a
> busy devops sysadmin - but we get good prices on the company corporate
> account
> 
> It all comes down to what you really *need* as opposed to how much
> techie-bling you *want* :-)

I also need to find out what my other half needs and of course I can't ignore 
what she wants, or I won't hear the end of it!  :p

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[William Kenworthy]

On 26/06/13 04:59, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 25/06/2013 21:10, Mick wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I am considering my options for a new rig destined to last a few years and one 
>> of the Dell machines on offer has this Intel SRT fake-raid feature, which 
>> after some cursory googling, I am not entirely sure will work with Linux.
> 

It will probably work quite well ... easy to set up, use and is reliable
... until the motherboard fails and you find that ALL your data is now
inaccessible until you buy a compatible motherboard ... which may not
exist! - been there, done that, never again :)  From memory there was no
linux driver needed (it was all done in the chipset).

Use soft raid, its performance is at least as good (there was a report
saying it was usually better, even against some lower end dedicated raid
cards which were resource constrained), and its portable.

Thats not to say "dont use the box" - the disk interfaces are usually
very good performers in standard mode so just dont use the raid mode.

BillK

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Mick]

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On Tuesday 25 Jun 2013 23:13:24 William Kenworthy wrote:
> On 26/06/13 04:59, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On 25/06/2013 21:10, Mick wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >> 
> >> I am considering my options for a new rig destined to last a few years
> >> and one of the Dell machines on offer has this Intel SRT fake-raid
> >> feature, which after some cursory googling, I am not entirely sure will
> >> work with Linux.
> 
> It will probably work quite well ... easy to set up, use and is reliable
> ... until the motherboard fails and you find that ALL your data is now
> inaccessible until you buy a compatible motherboard ... which may not
> exist! - been there, done that, never again :)  From memory there was no
> linux driver needed (it was all done in the chipset).

Ha!  In my enthusiasm I forgot the basics!  I am thinking though that SSD 
caching will only ever work in MSWindows with the dedicated Intel driver, not 
in Linux (at least not until someone writes a driver for it).

I was going to overcome this eventuality by installing Gentoo on the SSD and 
mirroring it on the HD somehow - not sure how at this moment.


> Use soft raid, its performance is at least as good (there was a report
> saying it was usually better, even against some lower end dedicated raid
> cards which were resource constrained), and its portable.
> 
> Thats not to say "dont use the box" - the disk interfaces are usually
> very good performers in standard mode so just dont use the raid mode.

I don't really need RAID, but want to safeguard my SSD installed OS, ideally 
automatically so.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Alan McKinnon]

On 26/06/2013 00:24, Mick wrote:
>> Use soft raid, its performance is at least as good (there was a report
>> > saying it was usually better, even against some lower end dedicated raid
>> > cards which were resource constrained), and its portable.
>> > 
>> > Thats not to say "dont use the box" - the disk interfaces are usually
>> > very good performers in standard mode so just dont use the raid mode.
>
> I don't really need RAID, but want to safeguard my SSD installed OS, ideally 
> automatically so.

Why? With an i7 and SSD you can recreate it from scratch in 90 minutes
and all you need is to mirror /etc/portage somewhere

What you want to protect is your *data* and that you will probably have
on the spinning disk

Perhaps it would be beneficial to define exactly what you want to
accomplish. This of course is hard to do, most folk stop at "copy this
stuff here to over there" and never think it through

do you want a regular raid-style mirror so that you can survive loss of
one disk?
do you want regular copies of $STUFF in case you have a blonde moment
and delete something?
Do you want restore snapshots in the style of Apple TimeMachine or
Windows's restore points?

These are mutually exclusive hence why you must define what you want to
achieve

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[J. Roeleveld]

On Wed, June 26, 2013 00:13, William Kenworthy wrote:
> On 26/06/13 04:59, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> On 25/06/2013 21:10, Mick wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I am considering my options for a new rig destined to last a few years
>>> and one
>>> of the Dell machines on offer has this Intel SRT fake-raid feature,
>>> which
>>> after some cursory googling, I am not entirely sure will work with
>>> Linux.
>>
>
> It will probably work quite well ... easy to set up, use and is reliable
> ... until the motherboard fails and you find that ALL your data is now
> inaccessible until you buy a compatible motherboard ... which may not
> exist! - been there, done that, never again :)  From memory there was no
> linux driver needed (it was all done in the chipset).

My experience with fake-raid was that a Linux-driver was needed. Maybe you
had it in the kernel?

> Use soft raid, its performance is at least as good (there was a report
> saying it was usually better, even against some lower end dedicated raid
> cards which were resource constrained), and its portable.

Linux softraid outperforms any fakeraid card. The reason for this is simple:
The drivers for softraid and the SATA/SAS/SCSI chipsets are still being
improved by the kernel developers.

The drivers for fakeraid are written on a friday afternoon and when they
reach the stage of "it works", development stops.

I've done some performance tests with fakeraid vs. linux softraid in the
past. The difference in speed was shocking.

> Thats not to say "dont use the box" - the disk interfaces are usually
> very good performers in standard mode so just dont use the raid mode.

Set it to "AHCI" mode for better performance on most new mainboards.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Stroller]

On 25 June 2013, at 20:10, Mick wrote:
> ...
> I am considering my options for a new rig destined to last a few years and one 
> of the Dell machines on offer has this Intel SRT fake-raid feature, which 
> after some cursory googling, I am not entirely sure will work with Linux.

Is it possible you could be thinking of a "hybrid" drive?

These combine a conventional spinning-platter hard-drive with a smaller SSD, and the windows drivers cache most frequently used files from the hard-drive on the SSD.

I *think* that these hybrid drives connect to the PC with a single SATA cable, and I believe that they appear to Linux as two separate drives - /dev/sda and /dev/sdb. You should be able to check this with the google.

Assuming my understanding is correct, you should be able to use these drives with Linux's SSD caching features - dm-cache or Bcache.

http://www.h-online.com/open/features/What-s-new-in-Linux-3-9-1845705.html

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM2ODM

HTH, 

Stroller. 

Re: [gentoo-user] Intel SRT + SSD + SATA

[Mick]

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On Wednesday 26 Jun 2013 01:17:05 Stroller wrote:
> On 25 June 2013, at 20:10, Mick wrote:
> > ...
> > I am considering my options for a new rig destined to last a few years
> > and one of the Dell machines on offer has this Intel SRT fake-raid
> > feature, which after some cursory googling, I am not entirely sure will
> > work with Linux.
> 
> Is it possible you could be thinking of a "hybrid" drive?
> 
> These combine a conventional spinning-platter hard-drive with a smaller
> SSD, and the windows drivers cache most frequently used files from the
> hard-drive on the SSD.

No, as I understand it Intel's SRT is not a hybrid drive - but functions 
similarly when using two seperate drives:  1 SSD for caching and any combo of 
conventional spinning drives.


> I *think* that these hybrid drives connect to the PC with a single SATA
> cable, and I believe that they appear to Linux as two separate drives -
> /dev/sda and /dev/sdb. You should be able to check this with the google.
> 
> Assuming my understanding is correct, you should be able to use these
> drives with Linux's SSD caching features - dm-cache or Bcache.
> 
> http://www.h-online.com/open/features/What-s-new-in-Linux-3-9-1845705.html
> 
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM2ODM


Thanks Stroller!  Good pointers.

Yes, it's made it in the kernel and indeed bcache is the linux equivalent to 
SRT.  Now, I'm not sure how it'll co-work with Intel's SRT, or if I should 
just switch it off and use bcache independently of the MoBo's SRT feature.

In which case, I might as well buy a machine that does not have all this 
unnecessary for me technology.  Hmmm ... some more thinking required.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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