[gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Grant]

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It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does anyone
think this won't happen?

- Grant

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Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Michael Mol]

On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does anyone
> think this won't happen?

It's looking promising. Not that I have a horse in the race, but I
very much like ARM's low power consumption. The way I see it, they're
only a short list of features away from obliterating x86:

* I'd like to see fast division.
I keep hearing about how this or that is slow because of ARM's lack of
strong division.

* I'd like to see a modern baseline of strong instructions.
x86 kept continually improving in a very fragmented way, but there
were, from time to time, baseline collections of feature sets you
could expect all processors to have. i386 represented one. i686
represented one. Currently, it's x86_64, which implies not only a
64-bit flattened address space and a departure from real mode, but
also a collection of SIMD instruction sets and other features
developed between the release of the Pentium Pro and AMD's Hammer
architecture.

ARM just feels...fragmented. And I don't have the impression I could
write my code assuming the availability of SIMD (presuming I use
things like OpenMP to expand my code to leverage it, rather than
writing processor-specific code. Though OpenCL could very well
alleviate that issue.)

* I'd like to see virtualization be a thing.

Productivity and efficiency on x86 *soared* with the
compartmentalization that came with hardware-assisted (and therefore
cheap! and fast!) virtualization. I haven't heard about the same on
ARM, although Citrix is working hard on porting Xen there. Paravirt
may well be the first common means of virtualization on ARM...

--
:wq

Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Florian Philipp]

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Am 09.12.2012 04:51, schrieb Michael Mol:
> On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does anyone
>> think this won't happen?
> 
> It's looking promising. Not that I have a horse in the race, but I
> very much like ARM's low power consumption. The way I see it, they're
> only a short list of features away from obliterating x86:
> 
> * I'd like to see fast division.
> I keep hearing about how this or that is slow because of ARM's lack of
> strong division.
> 
> * I'd like to see a modern baseline of strong instructions.
> x86 kept continually improving in a very fragmented way, but there
> were, from time to time, baseline collections of feature sets you
> could expect all processors to have. i386 represented one. i686
> represented one. Currently, it's x86_64, which implies not only a
> 64-bit flattened address space and a departure from real mode, but
> also a collection of SIMD instruction sets and other features
> developed between the release of the Pentium Pro and AMD's Hammer
> architecture.
> 
> ARM just feels...fragmented. And I don't have the impression I could
> write my code assuming the availability of SIMD (presuming I use
> things like OpenMP to expand my code to leverage it, rather than
> writing processor-specific code. Though OpenCL could very well
> alleviate that issue.)
> 

+1 with regard to fragmentation. What I especially despise is the lack
of a common boot infrastructure. If I'm not mistaken, it is still
impossible to make a kernel that boots on all (or at least a large
subset of all) ARM platforms [1].

And then, there is the simple fact that current ARMs lack the raw power
of an x86 and I guess if you scale them up to the point where they can
compete with x86s with regard to computing power per core, there is no
point in switching to ARM to begin with. Sure, you can parallelize and
make a large array of "wimpy" nodes, but you cannot fool Amdahl's law.
And even where you can parallelize nearly 100%, you risk high latency
[2, 3].

[1] https://lwn.net/Articles/496400/
[2] http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~jignesh/publ/nonwimpy.pdf
[3] http://research.google.com/pubs/archive/36448.pdf

Regards,
Florian Philipp


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Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Marc Joliet]

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Am Sun, 09 Dec 2012 20:24:58 +0100
schrieb Florian Philipp <lists@binarywings.net>:

> Am 09.12.2012 04:51, schrieb Michael Mol:
> > On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does anyone
> >> think this won't happen?
> > 
> > It's looking promising. Not that I have a horse in the race, but I
> > very much like ARM's low power consumption. The way I see it, they're
> > only a short list of features away from obliterating x86:
> > 
> > * I'd like to see fast division.
> > I keep hearing about how this or that is slow because of ARM's lack of
> > strong division.
> > 
> > * I'd like to see a modern baseline of strong instructions.
> > x86 kept continually improving in a very fragmented way, but there
> > were, from time to time, baseline collections of feature sets you
> > could expect all processors to have. i386 represented one. i686
> > represented one. Currently, it's x86_64, which implies not only a
> > 64-bit flattened address space and a departure from real mode, but
> > also a collection of SIMD instruction sets and other features
> > developed between the release of the Pentium Pro and AMD's Hammer
> > architecture.
> > 
> > ARM just feels...fragmented. And I don't have the impression I could
> > write my code assuming the availability of SIMD (presuming I use
> > things like OpenMP to expand my code to leverage it, rather than
> > writing processor-specific code. Though OpenCL could very well
> > alleviate that issue.)
> > 
> 
> +1 with regard to fragmentation. What I especially despise is the lack
> of a common boot infrastructure. If I'm not mistaken, it is still
> impossible to make a kernel that boots on all (or at least a large
> subset of all) ARM platforms [1].

> [1] https://lwn.net/Articles/496400/

I'm no embedded developer, but I read recently that the first batch of
multi-platform ARM support has been merged in Linux 3.7:

  http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Kernel-Log-Coming-in-3-7-Part-5-CPU-and-platform-code-1758293.html

-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup

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Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Dec 08, 2012 at 10:51:15PM -0500, Michael Mol wrote

> It's looking promising. Not that I have a horse in the race, but I
> very much like ARM's low power consumption.

  There's an article on Slashdot about Intel's relatively new 22 nm
SOC (System On Chip) design...
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/12/10/2346257/tsmc-and-global-foundries-plan-risky-process-jump-as-intel-unveils-22nm-soc

  It's not so much that Atom consumes more power than an ARM SOC, it's
that a multi-core Atom, plus a discrete GPU, plus various other discrete
components, consumes more power than an ARM SOC.  Move the discrete
components onto the chip (hence System On Chip), and power consumption
goes down.  Intel can still wring out a lot of efficiencies.  They
simply haven't had to in the past.

  That's totally separate from obvious stuff like fabbing only one core
on their low-power-chips.  A 2 or 4-core Atom on a smartphone/tablet is
the computing equivalant of one person commuting to work in
rush-hour-crawl traffic in a minivan or SUV powered by a V8 engine.  A
single-core chip would be equivalant to a 4-cylinder engine.  It'll do
the same easy job, but consume less energy in the process.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Dec 08, 2012 at 10:51:15PM -0500, Michael Mol wrote

> It's looking promising. Not that I have a horse in the race, but
> I very much like ARM's low power consumption.

  An update to my earlier response. A slasdot article at
http://slashdot.org/topic/datacenter/intel-launches-centerton-to-take-on-arm/

> As expected, Intel launched its Atom S1200 System-on-a-Chip (SoC) Dec.
> 11. Intel hopes that the 6-watt architecture-developed under the
> codename "Centerton"-will allow it to push back against the emerging
> ARM microserver market.
> 
> The Atom S1200 is a dual-core 64-bit chip. It's been optimized
> for servers and the data center, with features including ECC,
> virtualization, and hyperthreading (the lattermost is capable of
> delivering four threads per chip). The eight lanes of PCI Express
> 2.0, along with a memory controller supporting up to 8 GBytes of
> DDR3 memory, help make the S1200 a true System-on-a-Chip.

  And the usual discussions/flamewrs are at...
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/12/12/1712200/intel-announces-atom-s1200-soc-for-high-density-servers

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[microcai]

2012/12/9 Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com>:
> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does anyone
> think this won't happen?

No， it won't.

>
> - Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 19:25:55 -0800
Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:

> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does
> anyone think this won't happen?
> 
> - Grant

Yes me.

ARM will take over where it makes sense and won't where it doesn't.

For desktops and laptops, x86 was used simply because there was nothing
else, so x86 is going to have to fight for it's survival in the
whole bottom and middle range there.

x86 has already lost the fight in the portable market (phones, tablets)
and truth be told never really got going there.

For everything else, I don't see ARM making much inroads. There's a hug
server market out there for things with computing grunt and the
software that drives them - x86 isn't going away in that market anytime
soon.

But this is an old, old, old argument. People predicted the demise of
mainframes for years when x86 started becoming a quite powerful cpu.
The current truth is that IBM sell more mainframes year on year, growth
is more than mere inflation can account for, and mainframes are just
getting stronger. So x86 didn't kill the mainframe, instead x86 played
a huge role in making both stronger. I see no reason to believe the
same story won't play out exactly the same all over again between x86
and ARM.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Grant]

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> > It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does
> > anyone think this won't happen?
> >
> > - Grant
>
> Yes me.
>
> ARM will take over where it makes sense and won't where it doesn't.
>
> For desktops and laptops, x86 was used simply because there was nothing
> else, so x86 is going to have to fight for it's survival in the
> whole bottom and middle range there.
>
> x86 has already lost the fight in the portable market (phones, tablets)
> and truth be told never really got going there.
>
> For everything else, I don't see ARM making much inroads. There's a hug
> server market out there for things with computing grunt and the
> software that drives them - x86 isn't going away in that market anytime
> soon.
>
> But this is an old, old, old argument. People predicted the demise of
> mainframes for years when x86 started becoming a quite powerful cpu.
> The current truth is that IBM sell more mainframes year on year, growth
> is more than mere inflation can account for, and mainframes are just
> getting stronger. So x86 didn't kill the mainframe, instead x86 played
> a huge role in making both stronger. I see no reason to believe the
> same story won't play out exactly the same all over again between x86
> and ARM.

This is really interesting.  "all over again" is exactly what I expect to
happen, but I didn't realize it happened as you say. A friend of mine was
really into SPARC in the 90's and complained loudly when x86 grabbed its
market share.  At least that was how I understood it.  I imagine the same
thing happening with ARM and x86, but maybe I'm jumping to conclusions?

- Grant

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Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 13:44:09 -0800
Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:

> > But this is an old, old, old argument. People predicted the demise
> > of> mainframes for years when x86 started becoming a quite powerful
> > of> cpu.> The current truth is that IBM sell more mainframes year
> > of> on year, growth> is more than mere inflation can account for,
> > of> and mainframes are just> getting stronger. So x86 didn't kill
> > of> the mainframe, instead x86 played> a huge role in making both
> > of> stronger. I see no reason to believe the> same story won't play
> > of> out exactly the same all over again between x86> and ARM.This
> > of> is really interesting.  "all over again" is exactly what I
> > of> expect to happen, but I didn't realize it happened as you say.
> > of> A friend of mine was really into SPARC in the 90's and
> > of> complained loudly when x86 grabbed its market share.  At least
> > of> that was how I understood it.  I imagine the same thing
> > of> happening with ARM and x86, but maybe I'm jumping to
> > of> conclusions?

x86 and SPARC is not the same thing as x86 and ARM.

SPARC was a RISC processor but in it's heyday was comparable to x86 in
terms of computing power. It had one sponsor (Sun) and one user (Sun)
and one OS (Solaris, or maybe it was called SunOS back then). x86 had
far greater mindshare in general plus it had the killer "feature" - the
bean counter was already using it in his desktop and knew SPARC and x86
were quite comparable in some significant ways. He also knew the price
difference....

It's a classic case of a smaller player trying to take on a bigger
player directly on it's own turf.

x86 vs ARM is not that game at all. ARM is an embedded processor that,
whilst it could replace x86 on low-end desktops, really shines in
embedded. It won't displace x86 (nor is it trying to), it will carve
out new niches for itself, almost exactly like x86 did when mainframes
and minis ruled.

Where ARM does replace x86, I reckon it will be because x86 was not
really a good solution there. For example, Atom vs ARM (that is a valid
comparison). I don't think Atom will last much longer - the form factor
that really used it - netbooks - is much better served by tablets. The
tablet trumps the netbook, and Atom dies when the netbook dies.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Grant]

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> > It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does
> > anyone think this won't happen?
> >
> > - Grant
>
> Yes me.
>
> ARM will take over where it makes sense and won't where it doesn't.
>
> For desktops and laptops, x86 was used simply because there was nothing
> else, so x86 is going to have to fight for it's survival in the
> whole bottom and middle range there.

And won't the manufacturers be more inclined to use a processor they can
manufacture themselves under license than buy one from Intel or AMD?  And
won't end users be more inclined to buy them since they'll be cheaper?

- Grant

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[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[James]

Grant <emailgrant <at> gmail.com> writes:

> 
> 
> > > It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long. 

> >> For desktops and laptops, x86 was used simply because there was nothing>
else, so x86 is going to have to fight for it's survival 


> And won't the manufacturers be more inclined to use a processor they can
manufacture themselves under license than buy one from Intel or AMD?

BINGO! Arm can be built via most any process or on top of a FPGA.
Arm Ltd licenses the processors for CHEAP!
Arm is the KING in the lowest heat produced per MIP/MOP/whatever,
except for a select few DSPs on certain solutions.
You can mix or match SIMD, MIMD or any other type of processor
onto the substrate of your choice and ARM LTD does not care.
Try that with TI, Intel, Freescale, Microchip, AMD or any other
big silicon processor design owners.

All sorts of Linux (embedded through distros) run on a wide variety
of Arm platforms. The biggest embedded OS vendor (Wind River) is
doing about 95% of their business on embedded Linux. Arm is KING
in the embedded world.

AMD has annouced their building next gen products on Arm with their
AMD buss technologies.

Arm is WAY FAR MORE FLEXIBLE than any other processor out their.

Will x86 Die? No, but the game is ARM. (Period) Over. EVERYBODY
is doing ARM. INTEL is a bunch of assholes in the the embedded
world. Been there (i960) done that and left Intel decades ago
as have most innovators.

Companies such as TI (OMAP-5) are busy rolling out Arm15 products.
The will not even sell the latest (hotest) Arm chips to anyone,
because they are building a myriad of new products, direct to 
consumer and companies...... (oh yea remember TI has a variety
of chips, processors, DSP, video and other technologies and 
ARM hybrids at TI (Omap-5) are the hotest new areas inside
of TI. TI is not alone in the ARM conquest.....

I could go on for millions of pages of dead wreakage in the ARM
wake, but that's pointless, it pretty much understood. You gonna
put an Intel chip into robotics that go to Mars? Don't think so.....


I look for Microsoft to purchase AMD and build their own boxes,
like Apple. Microsoft is the biggest looser in this ARM take all
world................... Folks will survive, but the future is
now and it is ARM. Crap you can run Ubuntu on ARM now:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM

;-)     

Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 15:23:28 -0800
Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.
> > > Does anyone think this won't happen?
> > >
> > > - Grant
> >
> > Yes me.
> >
> > ARM will take over where it makes sense and won't where it doesn't.
> >
> > For desktops and laptops, x86 was used simply because there was
> > nothing else, so x86 is going to have to fight for it's survival in
> > the whole bottom and middle range there.
> 
> And won't the manufacturers be more inclined to use a processor they
> can manufacture themselves under license than buy one from Intel or
> AMD?  And won't end users be more inclined to buy them since they'll
> be cheaper?

You have neglected to mention the single most important factor
of all:

inertia

Human groups are loathe to change things that already work good enough
for something that works better. Intel works good enough.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[James]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:


> You have neglected to mention the single most important factor
> of all:

> inertia

> Human groups are loathe to change things that already work good enough
> for something that works better. Intel works good enough.

Windows and Linux will be indistinguishable to the masses of users.
Everyone is cheap, so the price of Intel processors will plunge.
Arm, being  ethereal by nature, is far too fleet-footed for the
aged behemoth, known as Intel.....

The planet is CHEAP, and that has, shall and will dominate....

Not to mention there'll be a big party of technologists (competitors?)
just waiting to piss on Intel's corpse.....

James

Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant:
> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does anyone
> think this won't happen?

no

two reasons:

not enough power
does not run x86 software

the second one is a real deal breaker.
-- 
#163933

[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant:
>
>> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does anyone
>> think this won't happen?
>
> no
>
> two reasons:
>
> not enough power
> does not run x86 software
>
> the second one is a real deal breaker.

Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a
program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the
processor architecture.  Then you'd be able to build programs (or even
OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures!

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! TONY RANDALL!  Is YOUR
                                  at               life a PATIO of FUN??
                              gmail.com            

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Michael Mol]

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant:
>>
>>> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does anyone
>>> think this won't happen?
>>
>> no
>>
>> two reasons:
>>
>> not enough power
>> does not run x86 software
>>
>> the second one is a real deal breaker.
>
> Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a
> program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the
> processor architecture.  Then you'd be able to build programs (or even
> OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures!

You speak in jest, but this is now the case for most of the
applications people use...

Even for legacy binaries, the solution has trended towards sticking
the thing in a VM and accessing it over the network.

--
:wq

[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-12-10, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant:
>>>
>>>> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.  Does anyone
>>>> think this won't happen?
>>>
>>> no
>>>
>>> two reasons:
>>>
>>> not enough power
>>> does not run x86 software
>>>
>>> the second one is a real deal breaker.
>>
>> Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a
>> program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the
>> processor architecture.  Then you'd be able to build programs (or even
>> OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures!
>
> You speak in jest, but this is now the case for most of the
> applications people use...

For an increasingly large segment of the population, the the
"software" they use is

 1) A web browser to access stuff that runs on a server somewhere of
    inderminate architecture (GMail, Salesforce, Facebook, Youtube,
    miniclip, pinsta-whatever, etc.).

 2) A collection of smartphone/tablet apps, most of which aren't even
    available for x86.
    
-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! What GOOD is a
                                  at               CARDBOARD suitcase ANYWAY?
                              gmail.com            

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:06:36 +0000 (UTC)
Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> > Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant:
> >
> >> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.
> >> Does anyone think this won't happen?
> >
> > no
> >
> > two reasons:
> >
> > not enough power
> > does not run x86 software
> >
> > the second one is a real deal breaker.
> 
> Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a
> program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the
> processor architecture.  Then you'd be able to build programs (or even
> OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures!
> 

We can do that *already*

java
perl
python
dotnet
and any number of other languages compiled to bytecode. There's too
many to list.

Why have these languages not taken over the world seeing as they all a)
exist b) exist now c) run now d) do what it says on the box e) run
about as fast as C most of the time in places where it matters?

Because in theory they do what they do well.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is a difference between theory and practice


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2012-12-10, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:06:36 +0000 (UTC)
> Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant:
>> >
>> >> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.
>> >> Does anyone think this won't happen?
>> >
>> > no
>> >
>> > two reasons:
>> >
>> > not enough power
>> > does not run x86 software
>> >
>> > the second one is a real deal breaker.
>> 
>> Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a
>> program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the
>> processor architecture.  Then you'd be able to build programs (or even
>> OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures!
>
> We can do that *already*
>
> java
> perl
> python
> dotnet
> and any number of other languages compiled to bytecode. There's too
> many to list.

I know. :)  

And even if you stick with old-school compiled languages to C,
supporting multiple architectures isn't any more difficult than
supporting the plethora of x86-based motherboards and chipsets.

  * Apple transitioned from 68K to PPC to x86 without much problem,
    and they don't seem to have any problem getting software to run on
    ARM devices.

  * Linux is available for non x86 platforms. :)

Nobody has developed significant applications in assembly language for
decades, so I don't see why there's a requirement to "run x86
software"...

I use a couple of large, commerical Java apps under Linux and they
both work great.  OTOH, some of the smaller "free" Java apps I've
tried were pretty bad...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Gee, I feel kind of
                                  at               LIGHT in the head now,
                              gmail.com            knowing I can't make my
                                                   satellite dish PAYMENTS!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Montag, 10. Dezember 2012, 20:06:58 schrieb Grant Edwards:
> On 2012-12-10, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:06:36 +0000 (UTC)
> > 
> > Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>
> >> 
> >> wrote:
> >> > Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant:
> >> >> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.
> >> >> Does anyone think this won't happen?
> >> > 
> >> > no
> >> > 
> >> > two reasons:
> >> > 
> >> > not enough power
> >> > does not run x86 software
> >> > 
> >> > the second one is a real deal breaker.
> >> 
> >> Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can write a
> >> program using a source language that isn't tied directly to the
> >> processor architecture.  Then you'd be able to build programs (or even
> >> OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of CPU architectures!
> > 
> > We can do that *already*
> > 
> > java
> > perl
> > python
> > dotnet
> > and any number of other languages compiled to bytecode. There's too
> > many to list.
> 
> I know. :)
> 
> And even if you stick with old-school compiled languages to C,
> supporting multiple architectures isn't any more difficult than
> supporting the plethora of x86-based motherboards and chipsets.
> 
>   * Apple transitioned from 68K to PPC to x86 without much problem,
>     and they don't seem to have any problem getting software to run on
>     ARM devices.

apple had what? 1% market share back then?

Legacy apps running all around, doing heavy lifting.... no way to 'port' them. 
Just remember all those COBOL programmers who got reactivated back in 1999.

Or Itanium. One thing why it failed so hard: it didn't run x86 software well 
enough. If you have to go all new - why not POWER or UltraSparc instead?

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:06:58 +0000 (UTC)
Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2012-12-10, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:06:36 +0000 (UTC)
> > Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2012-12-10, Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Am Samstag, 8. Dezember 2012, 19:25:55 schrieb Grant:
> >> >
> >> >> It seems like ARM processors will destroy x86 before too long.
> >> >> Does anyone think this won't happen?
> >> >
> >> > no
> >> >
> >> > two reasons:
> >> >
> >> > not enough power
> >> > does not run x86 software
> >> >
> >> > the second one is a real deal breaker.
> >> 
> >> Only until somebody invents some sort of scheme where you can
> >> write a program using a source language that isn't tied directly
> >> to the processor architecture.  Then you'd be able to build
> >> programs (or even OS kernels) so that they'd run on a variety of
> >> CPU architectures!
> >
> > We can do that *already*
> >
> > java
> > perl
> > python
> > dotnet
> > and any number of other languages compiled to bytecode. There's too
> > many to list.
> 
> I know. :)  
> 
> And even if you stick with old-school compiled languages to C,
> supporting multiple architectures isn't any more difficult than
> supporting the plethora of x86-based motherboards and chipsets.
> 
>   * Apple transitioned from 68K to PPC to x86 without much problem,
>     and they don't seem to have any problem getting software to run on
>     ARM devices.

Apple tightly controls the entire computer end-to-end and they know
*exactly* what is already on the user's machine:

How many kinds of video cards: 1
How many kinds of screens: 1
How many drive types: 1
How many optical drive types: 1
How many boot methods: 1
I could go on, but you get the point. The larger part of the variable
factors simply don't exist for Apple to the same degree faced by
Windows and Linux. This makes a migration several orders of
magnitude easier for Apple.

> 
>   * Linux is available for non x86 platforms. :)

Only by a monumental crowd-source effort never before witnessed in the
history of engineering.

When Apple migrate CPUs (they have now done it three times), they tweak
a few compile settings, write a few new drivers for new hardware, and
run make. A surprisingly large chunk of the code base builds fine. A
relatively small team takes care of the rest.

The same action on Linux takes somewhat longer, and considerably more
effort while the vast army of suckers^Wvolunteers and concentrate on
their little bit while waiting for the reverse-engineering lads to
finish doing their thing.


> 
> Nobody has developed significant applications in assembly language for
> decades, so I don't see why there's a requirement to "run x86
> software"...

I don't get your point.

Are you talking about code finely-hand-tuned to run on a specific cpu?

The kinds of software the average user really wants to run are very
much tied to the hardware:

kernel 
drivers
boot code
media players
codecs

It's true we don't hand tune each app to the cpu anymore, we hand tune
the compiler to the cpu.

> I use a couple of large, commerical Java apps under Linux and they
> both work great.  OTOH, some of the smaller "free" Java apps I've
> tried were pretty bad...

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Code quality varies, this is always
true.

The best quality proprietary code I've experienced was from Sybase.
The worst quality proprieatry code I've experienced was from Oracle.
This doesn't prove anything except that maybe when you bedazzle bean
counters you can get away with anything...

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Grant]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 692 bytes --]

> >   * Linux is available for non x86 platforms. :)
>
> Only by a monumental crowd-source effort never before witnessed in the
> history of engineering.

I'm spoiled then.  Gentoo's ARM support is so complete and easy to use, I
didn't realize it was a big deal.  BTW, I haven't counted but it seems like
about 95% of the stuff in portage has an arm keyword.  I wanted to use
inetd (netkit-base) on ARM and it didn't have an arm keyword, but it worked
anyway.

> When Apple migrate CPUs (they have now done it three times), they tweak

It's starting to look like four (ARM this time):

http://www.valuewalk.com/2012/12/implications-of-apple-inc-aapl-intel-corporation-intc-break-up/

- Grant

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 958 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:10:12 -0800
Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:


> > When Apple migrate CPUs (they have now done it three times), they
> > tweak
> 
> It's starting to look like four (ARM this time):
> 
> http://www.valuewalk.com/2012/12/implications-of-apple-inc-aapl-intel-corporation-intc-break-up/

I must be missing one:

68k -> POWER
POWER -> Intel
Intel -> ARM

I count the dev work to get iPhones and tablets working as a
full migration as there is considerable overlap (even after ripping
much stuff out that doesn't apply to phones and tablets).

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Grant]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 400 bytes --]

> > > When Apple migrate CPUs (they have now done it three times), they
> > > tweak
> >
> > It's starting to look like four (ARM this time):
> >
> >
http://www.valuewalk.com/2012/12/implications-of-apple-inc-aapl-intel-corporation-intc-break-up/
>
> I must be missing one:
>
> 68k -> POWER
> POWER -> Intel
> Intel -> ARM

Can't argue with that.  4 architectures, 3 migrations.  My mistake.

- Grant

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:33:26 -0800
Grant <emailgrant@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > When Apple migrate CPUs (they have now done it three times),
> > > > they tweak
> > >
> > > It's starting to look like four (ARM this time):
> > >
> > >
> http://www.valuewalk.com/2012/12/implications-of-apple-inc-aapl-intel-corporation-intc-break-up/
> >
> > I must be missing one:
> >
> > 68k -> POWER
> > POWER -> Intel
> > Intel -> ARM
> 
> Can't argue with that.  4 architectures, 3 migrations.  My mistake.


I have to say it:

the 6502 doesn't count :-)



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[James]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:


> > > 68k -> POWER
> > > POWER -> Intel
> > > Intel -> ARM

Ah, you've made progress!

> the 6502 doesn't count 

Alan, one of the keenest reasons ARM is dominating
NOW, is that in the early 1990 one person, helped
many fledling embedded linux hacks get embedded
linux running on many different flavors of ARM
processors.

RUSSELL is KING, and imho is the predominant
reason today, a decade later, that ARM dominates
the embedded space. Just look at the vintage
embedded linux ports to hundreds of boards that
mostly impoverished little companies built
and ONE MAN stood in the gap for them all to
realize their dreams:

http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/

Intel and the rest wanted everyone to purchase expensive
dev board, licensed embedded RTOSes, and binaries
for most add on hardware. A prospect that precluded
the little companies from fair competition.

RUSSELL KING should be wealthy and on the Board
of directors for ARM ltd. for his unselfish
and heroic efforts! More than anyone else, he
made arm-linux a doable for thousands of companies
back when the embedded world did not think much
of linux nor embedded linux. (I know I hacked on a 
few of those old projects)....

Intel has nothing but a bunch of blood sucking
lawyers and assholes that think they are better
than the rest of us; and they shall fall!

From the Bible: "You reap what you sow"...
My most sincerest hope is that we take the embedded
gentoo efforts from the the embedded gentoo handbook,
and integrate them into the regular Gentoo handbook.
The distro that does this will be king of the distros!

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/

peace,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Bruce Hill]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:05:30PM +0000, James wrote:
> 
> Alan, one of the keenest reasons ARM is dominating
> NOW, is that in the early 1990 one person, helped
> many fledling embedded linux hacks get embedded
> linux running on many different flavors of ARM
> processors.
> 
> RUSSELL is KING, and imho is the predominant
> reason today, a decade later, that ARM dominates
> the embedded space. Just look at the vintage
> embedded linux ports to hundreds of boards that
> mostly impoverished little companies built
> and ONE MAN stood in the gap for them all to
> realize their dreams:
> 
> http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/
> 
> Intel and the rest wanted everyone to purchase expensive
> dev board, licensed embedded RTOSes, and binaries
> for most add on hardware. A prospect that precluded
> the little companies from fair competition.
> 
> RUSSELL KING should be wealthy and on the Board
> of directors for ARM ltd. for his unselfish
> and heroic efforts! More than anyone else, he
> made arm-linux a doable for thousands of companies
> back when the embedded world did not think much
> of linux nor embedded linux. (I know I hacked on a 
> few of those old projects)....
> 
> Intel has nothing but a bunch of blood sucking
> lawyers and assholes that think they are better
> than the rest of us; and they shall fall!
> 
> >From the Bible: "You reap what you sow"...
> My most sincerest hope is that we take the embedded
> gentoo efforts from the the embedded gentoo handbook,
> and integrate them into the regular Gentoo handbook.
> The distro that does this will be king of the distros!
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/
> 
> peace,
> James

ack for Russell King

Wish my Samsung Galaxy S could have it's piece of crap Android system replaced
by arm-linux -- if not it will drive me back to an iPhone.

Well, idk James, but his passion is great to read!
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

[gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[James]

Bruce Hill <daddy <at> happypenguincomputers.com> writes:


> Wish my Samsung Galaxy S could have it's piece of crap Android system replaced
> by arm-linux -- if not it will drive me back to an iPhone.

Your problem defined:

http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/05/03/yep-its-pretty-likely-the-galaxy-s-iii-wont-have-a-quad-core-processor-in-the-us/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exynos_(system_on_chip)

Dev board:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/26/samsung-launches-arndale-community-board/

Now go find  embedded (gentoo?) Linux developers that have or are working
on a port to the Arm15.

On this page:
http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/

Look at entry: 3825

 All you really got to do is buy a dev board and give it to either 
Armin76 or Vapier; they'll get embedded gentoo on that puppy and 
figure out how to hack your Galaxy S-III. It's on my todo list.

http://armin762.wordpress.com/
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/

gentoo.embedded is your friend!

Good hunting. post back and I'll get a dev board too!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Bruce Hill]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:55:53PM +0000, James wrote:
> Bruce Hill <daddy <at> happypenguincomputers.com> writes:
> 
> 
> > Wish my Samsung Galaxy S could have it's piece of crap Android system replaced
> > by arm-linux -- if not it will drive me back to an iPhone.
> 
> Your problem defined:
> 
> http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/05/03/yep-its-pretty-likely-the-galaxy-s-iii-wont-have-a-quad-core-processor-in-the-us/
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exynos_(system_on_chip)
> 
> Dev board:
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/26/samsung-launches-arndale-community-board/
> 
> Now go find  embedded (gentoo?) Linux developers that have or are working
> on a port to the Arm15.
> 
> On this page:
> http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/
> 
> Look at entry: 3825
> 
>  All you really got to do is buy a dev board and give it to either 
> Armin76 or Vapier; they'll get embedded gentoo on that puppy and 
> figure out how to hack your Galaxy S-III. It's on my todo list.
> 
> http://armin762.wordpress.com/
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/
> 
> gentoo.embedded is your friend!
> 
> Good hunting. post back and I'll get a dev board too!

Too busy with RL atm, but afaict that doesn't apply to my Samsung Galaxy S.

Notice, just S ... nothing afterwards.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:26:02 -0600
Bruce Hill <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:05:30PM +0000, James wrote:
> > 
> > Alan, one of the keenest reasons ARM is dominating
> > NOW, is that in the early 1990 one person, helped
> > many fledling embedded linux hacks get embedded
> > linux running on many different flavors of ARM
> > processors.
> > 
> > RUSSELL is KING, and imho is the predominant
> > reason today, a decade later, that ARM dominates
> > the embedded space. Just look at the vintage
> > embedded linux ports to hundreds of boards that
> > mostly impoverished little companies built
> > and ONE MAN stood in the gap for them all to
> > realize their dreams:
> > 
> > http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/
> > 
> > Intel and the rest wanted everyone to purchase expensive
> > dev board, licensed embedded RTOSes, and binaries
> > for most add on hardware. A prospect that precluded
> > the little companies from fair competition.
> > 
> > RUSSELL KING should be wealthy and on the Board
> > of directors for ARM ltd. for his unselfish
> > and heroic efforts! More than anyone else, he
> > made arm-linux a doable for thousands of companies
> > back when the embedded world did not think much
> > of linux nor embedded linux. (I know I hacked on a 
> > few of those old projects)....
> > 
> > Intel has nothing but a bunch of blood sucking
> > lawyers and assholes that think they are better
> > than the rest of us; and they shall fall!
> > 
> > >From the Bible: "You reap what you sow"...
> > My most sincerest hope is that we take the embedded
> > gentoo efforts from the the embedded gentoo handbook,
> > and integrate them into the regular Gentoo handbook.
> > The distro that does this will be king of the distros!
> > 
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/
> > 
> > peace,
> > James
> 
> ack for Russell King

+1 to that too.

I'd also like to tip my hat to ARM itself - their licensing conditions
to build cores seems very reasonable and a good deal for a
manufacturer, all bases covered.

It's nice to see a chip designer not falling into the intel trap of
trying to rape every customer for every last cent they have!



> 
> Wish my Samsung Galaxy S could have it's piece of crap Android system
> replaced by arm-linux -- if not it will drive me back to an iPhone.
> 
> Well, idk James, but his passion is great to read!



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Pandu Poluan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2768 bytes --]

On Dec 13, 2012 12:10 PM, "Alan McKinnon" <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:26:02 -0600
> Bruce Hill <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:05:30PM +0000, James wrote:
> > >
> > > Alan, one of the keenest reasons ARM is dominating
> > > NOW, is that in the early 1990 one person, helped
> > > many fledling embedded linux hacks get embedded
> > > linux running on many different flavors of ARM
> > > processors.
> > >
> > > RUSSELL is KING, and imho is the predominant
> > > reason today, a decade later, that ARM dominates
> > > the embedded space. Just look at the vintage
> > > embedded linux ports to hundreds of boards that
> > > mostly impoverished little companies built
> > > and ONE MAN stood in the gap for them all to
> > > realize their dreams:
> > >
> > > http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/developer/machines/
> > >
> > > Intel and the rest wanted everyone to purchase expensive
> > > dev board, licensed embedded RTOSes, and binaries
> > > for most add on hardware. A prospect that precluded
> > > the little companies from fair competition.
> > >
> > > RUSSELL KING should be wealthy and on the Board
> > > of directors for ARM ltd. for his unselfish
> > > and heroic efforts! More than anyone else, he
> > > made arm-linux a doable for thousands of companies
> > > back when the embedded world did not think much
> > > of linux nor embedded linux. (I know I hacked on a
> > > few of those old projects)....
> > >
> > > Intel has nothing but a bunch of blood sucking
> > > lawyers and assholes that think they are better
> > > than the rest of us; and they shall fall!
> > >
> > > >From the Bible: "You reap what you sow"...
> > > My most sincerest hope is that we take the embedded
> > > gentoo efforts from the the embedded gentoo handbook,
> > > and integrate them into the regular Gentoo handbook.
> > > The distro that does this will be king of the distros!
> > >
> > > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/
> > >
> > > peace,
> > > James
> >
> > ack for Russell King
>
> +1 to that too.
>
> I'd also like to tip my hat to ARM itself - their licensing conditions
> to build cores seems very reasonable and a good deal for a
> manufacturer, all bases covered.
>
> It's nice to see a chip designer not falling into the intel trap of
> trying to rape every customer for every last cent they have!
>

Don't get me started on that...

I hate them for 'selectively' making CPU Features available. In my previous
company, we more than once have to send back newly-purchased PCs because
apparently the model we ordered had an 'upgrade', yet the *newer* CPU
doesn't support VT-x.

Such thing never happen with AMD Desktop CPUs.

That's why my next home rig will be AMD-based.

Rgds,
--

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3898 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Bruce Hill]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 01:06:23PM +0700, Pandu Poluan wrote:
> On Dec 13, 2012 12:10 PM, "Alan McKinnon" <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > It's nice to see a chip designer not falling into the intel trap of
> > trying to rape every customer for every last cent they have!
> >
> 
> Don't get me started on that...
> 
> I hate them for 'selectively' making CPU Features available. In my previous
> company, we more than once have to send back newly-purchased PCs because
> apparently the model we ordered had an 'upgrade', yet the *newer* CPU
> doesn't support VT-x.
> 
> Such thing never happen with AMD Desktop CPUs.
> 
> That's why my next home rig will be AMD-based.

The first PC I built was in 1984, and no longer remember which CPU was used.
Since the mid 90s I've only bought one Intel CPU (2002), and that because I'd
been living in China only a month, couldn't speak the language, and the guy
helping me who spoke a little Engrish reported the salesman said "AMD quit
making CPUs". Being sorely in need of a server, I just bought it.

Happy Penguin Computers doesn't buy anything from Intel ... period.

As my daughter says, "Daddy, don't compromise your convictions!"
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers               >')
126 Fenco Drive                       ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801                       ^^
support@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Walter Dnes]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:05:30PM +0000, James wrote

> My most sincerest hope is that we take the embedded
> gentoo efforts from the the embedded gentoo handbook,
> and integrate them into the regular Gentoo handbook.
> The distro that does this will be king of the distros!
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/

  Problems with using embedded kernels as a base...

* they use uclibc, which has some APIs that differ from glibc.  This
  could break Flash, proprietary video driver binary blobs, and who
  knows what else.

* they generally use busybox symlinks in place of most core utils.  The
  busybox versions don't always exactly match the standalone versions.
  You would have to tweak quite a few scripts to fix that.

  Alpine Linux is based on uclibc and busybox (including mdev).  From
http://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux:Overview

> Note: As the About page says, Alpine is "designed for x86 Routers,
> Firewalls, VPNs, VoIP and servers." But it's a perfectly workable
> desktop system, too. The shortcomings just have to do with the small
> community, and that sometimes you may need to get your hands dirty
> modifying scripts written with more mainstream desktop distros in
> mind.  So you probably won't want to use Alpine if you're a newcomer
> to Linux.  If you're already comfortable with another distro, though,
> especially a power-user, less-hand-holding distro like ArchLinux or
> Gentoo, you should do fine.

  It would be interesting to see a "micro" port of Gentoo.  But you can
forget about bringing over KDE-OS, GNOME-OS, or CHROME-OS.  If/when
gnash is finally ready, or HTML replaces Flash, I could see Gentoo
running with ICEWM or a lightweight desktop like XFCE or LXDE.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Grant]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1115 bytes --]

>   Problems with using embedded kernels as a base...
>
> * they use uclibc, which has some APIs that differ from glibc.  This
>   could break Flash, proprietary video driver binary blobs, and who
>   knows what else.
>
> * they generally use busybox symlinks in place of most core utils.  The
>   busybox versions don't always exactly match the standalone versions.
>   You would have to tweak quite a few scripts to fix that.

When you say embedded kernels you may mean something I'm not familiar with,
but I use a patched vanilla kernel with Gentoo on the Beaglebone and it
works great.  No uclibc and no busybox.

>   It would be interesting to see a "micro" port of Gentoo.  But you can
> forget about bringing over KDE-OS, GNOME-OS, or CHROME-OS.  If/when
> gnash is finally ready, or HTML replaces Flash, I could see Gentoo
> running with ICEWM or a lightweight desktop like XFCE or LXDE.

I don't think that's right.  I have a Pandaboard ES with a dual-core 1.2Ghz
CPU and 1GB RAM and I bet it would run Gnome just fine.  Again, maybe
you're referring to something here that I'm not familiar with.

- Grant

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Kevin Chadwick]

> I don't think that's right.  I have a Pandaboard ES with a dual-core 1.2Ghz
> CPU and 1GB RAM and I bet it would run Gnome just fine.  Again, maybe
> you're referring to something here that I'm not familiar with.

I think the key word was micro, but is that off topic (ignoring
subject)?

Many (such as lennart and some kernel devs such as GKH even) seem to
think embedded applies only to the mobile world when in fact mobile is
a small fraction of it.

Even below Uclinux type systems, there is nuttx linux or rowebots for
example which is in a similar position to what mobile was in the generic
kernel. 

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
_______________________________________________________________________

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Walter Dnes]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 05:00:09PM -0800, Grant wrote

> When you say embedded kernels you may mean something I'm not familiar
> with, but I use a patched vanilla kernel with Gentoo on the Beaglebone
> and it works great.  No uclibc and no busybox.

  I'm thinking more along the lines of ADSL router/modems, e.g. the
Linksys WRT54G series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linksys_WRT54G_series
with Broadcom CPUs.  DD-WRT is a basic linux that is configured to act
as a firewall/router/etc.  See http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Mittwoch, 12. Dezember 2012, 19:33:58 schrieb Walter Dnes:

>   It would be interesting to see a "micro" port of Gentoo.  But you can
> forget about bringing over KDE-OS, GNOME-OS, or CHROME-OS.  If/when
> gnash is finally ready, or HTML replaces Flash, I could see Gentoo
> running with ICEWM or a lightweight desktop like XFCE or LXDE.

SLAX is using KDE4 - and uses 200mb.

KDE is flexible. If you have lots of memory, it does use lots of memory. If you 
don't it doesn't. So don't group it together with 'lets force mono unto our 
users - for a notes application' gnome or 'you can always add another 4gig' 
chrome.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: {OT} Will ARM take over the world?

[Walter Dnes]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 07:29:21PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote

> SLAX is using KDE4 - and uses 200mb.
> 
> KDE is flexible. If you have lots of memory, it does use lots of
> memory. If you don't it doesn't. So don't group it together with
> 'lets force mono unto our users - for a notes application' gnome or
> 'you can always add another 4gig' chrome.

  What about 'lets force dbus/libmpeg2/qt-webkit/phonon and a relational
database on our users - for a pdf viewer'?

  I have a stripped-down no-nonsense install on all my machines with the
USE variable beginning with "-*", and only necessary stuff being added.
When xpdf was deprecated, one of the suggested alternatives was
"okular".  It requires qt3support, which in turn requires the
"accessibility" USE flag.  And qt-gui is required which requires the
"dbus" flag.  And oh yeah, I'd have to unmask dbus.

And dee first dependancy requires dee second dependancy
And dee second dependancy requires dee third dependancy
And dee third dependancy requires dee fourth dependancy
etc, etc, etc

  After unmasking dbus and adding a bunch of USE flags, I finally got
rid of the emerge error messages...

USE="accessibility dbus glib qt3support sqlite gstreamer" emerge -p okular

Total: 59 packages (59 new), Size of downloads: 347,087 kB

  A stinking pdf viewer requires, amongst other things...
libmpeg2  dbus  desktop-file-utils  strigi  xdg-utils  qt-webkit  phonon

and *A RELATIONAL DATABASE* (Hello!?!?), of which the lightest available
is sqlite.  Don't waste your time trying to convince me that KDE is
lightweight.  I run ICEWM.  See my sig...

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications