On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 05:59:39 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 09:37:03AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how
> > bad an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the
> > suggestion to use dd to copy one drive to another with a different
> > block size. While this may have worked for the person suggesting it,
> > it is a bad idea in general and refraining from stating that could
> > have resulted n problems for someone following that advice.
> 
> Might I suggest that it is more appropriate, and more likely to be
> received, if it is 'pointed out' with logic, technical explanation, and
> courtesy.

I didn't say otherwise. However, clarity is also important, if an idea is
considered poorly conceived, dangerous or simply stupid, there is nothing
wrong with stating that. Condemning the idea is not the same as condemning
the man, even though there is always an implication that someone
proposing a poor idea is in some way at fault, even if that fault is no
more than rushing to try to help without considering the possibilities.

> > Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of
> > discussion, and discussion is what this list is about.
> 
> Which can (and should) be done well without sarcasm and personal attack.

Agreed absolutely. There are times when a discussion moves beyond the
facts into personal territory, as happened in this thread. In such a
case you should consider the track record of the person making the
comments. Volker is known to to be somewhat abrupt, although there
doesn't appear to be any malice, Alan has a somewhat sarcastic streak.
When the comments come from an unknown poster (even one with no
recognisable name) they can provoke a stronger, less considered reaction,
precisely because there is no history.

> > On the topic of swearing, some consider it "bad language", as you do,
> > and I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression
> > (others seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending
> > that). There are times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to
> > a statement, especially when used rarely, but on a list like this
> > there is generally little or no need for it. However, not all users
> > of this list are native-English speakers and other cultures see use
> > of such language different - one only has to look at the comments
> > made on the podium of the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by
> > professional drivers who are paid not to offend.
> 
> God, whom you mention in your sig, has written His law on the heart of
> every one, so that "they are without excuse". Having visited 10
> countries, and lived in China for almost 9 years, my experience has
> been that even most heathen in remote villages understand propriety.

Maybe, but propriety is a feature of a culture and this list has users
from many cultures. There may even be some offended by your trying to
enforce your God's edicts n their behaviour.

This is a multicultural list, we should live and let live. If someone's
attitude or words offend you, you are free to ignore them, but they are
just as free to continue acting as they do. The Internet is
self-regulating and that applies to mailing lists too. This is primarily
a help forum, those with attitude may find that when they need help, they
have been killfiled by the very people that can help them.

> This person doing post-grad work in a Mexican universtiy well
> understands. But even if you doubt that, just reference his remark: "I
> hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention."
> Seems he didn't *really* mean that, and will continue to offend others.

I agree, although that is more to do with attitude than language, it's
like people who apologise before doing something wrong. What they are
really saying it "I know what I am about to do it wrong, but I'm going to
do it anyway". Not that I was at all bothered by the client that phoned
me again yesterday with "sorry to ring you no a Sunday, but..." followed
by a trivial question that could have waited until today, or even be put
in an email.

Please don't confuse choice of vocabulary with courtesy. I use what you
consider bad language at times, when it fulfils two criteria.

1) I feel it makes my statement more effective
2) I know it won't offend the person(s) I am speaking to

However, those are my values, I don't try to force them on others. People
who don't like the way I act are as free t ignore me as I them. Making a
big thing about it is ultimately pointless.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Your lack of organisation does not represent an
emergency in my world.