[gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[Walter Dnes]

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html

========================================================================
Well, we intent to continue to make it possible to run udevd outside of
systemd. But that's about it. We will not polish that, or add new
features to that or anything.

OTOH we do polish behaviour of udev when used *within* systemd however,
and that's our primary focus.

And what we will certainly not do is compromise the uniform integration
into systemd for some cosmetic improvements for non-systemd systems.

(Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you
haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop
that support entirely.)

Lennart

--
Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc.
========================================================================

  Plan B... toot... (blowing my own horn)
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev/Automount_USB

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[Alan McKinnon]

On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 05:52:11 -0400
"Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:

> 
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html


So, what is it going to take to convince Lennart that, contrary to what
he thinks, he actually isn't the only human on the planet?

I'd like to hear GregKH's take on this


> 
> ========================================================================
> Well, we intent to continue to make it possible to run udevd outside
> of systemd. But that's about it. We will not polish that, or add new
> features to that or anything.
> 
> OTOH we do polish behaviour of udev when used *within* systemd
> however, and that's our primary focus.
> 
> And what we will certainly not do is compromise the uniform
> integration into systemd for some cosmetic improvements for
> non-systemd systems.
> 
> (Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case
> you haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we
> can drop that support entirely.)
> 
> Lennart
> 
> --
> Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc.
> ========================================================================
> 
>   Plan B... toot... (blowing my own horn)
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev/Automount_USB
> 



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[Jorge Almeida]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 05:52:11 -0400
> "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html
>
>
> So, what is it going to take to convince Lennart that, contrary to what
> he thinks, he actually isn't the only human on the planet?
>

Take off all his mirrors? Cruel and unusual punishment, I know...

Jorge Almeida

Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[Jorge Almeida]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
>
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html
>
> (Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you
> haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop
> that support entirely.)
>
> Lennart
>

I would love to see the day when I could have a udev-free system, and leave
UDEV/Poetterix to the lennartings...

>   Plan B... toot... (blowing my own horn)
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev

Walter,

I'm confused about the xorg stuff in the WiKi. It mentions the evdev driver as
critical, but at the Notes at the bottom you say "evdev need udev to be
built". Can you clarify this?

Thanks

Jorge Almeida

Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[William Kenworthy]

Hi Walter, can you expand on the LVM2 problem you mention on the MDEV
page and/or a link if there is one on the status?

I am building a new desktop (finally building as 64bit!) which will need
lvm2 and after trying gnome3 for a couple of months on my existing
machines, I have decided that its too unstable, too much of a resource
hog and such a major productivity killer so its time to abandon ship.
If I have to swim, I would like to use the opportunity to drop udev so I
can avoid that train wreck as well.

BillK



On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 05:52 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote:
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html
> 
> ========================================================================
> Well, we intent to continue to make it possible to run udevd outside of
> systemd. But that's about it. We will not polish that, or add new
> features to that or anything.
> 
> OTOH we do polish behaviour of udev when used *within* systemd however,
> and that's our primary focus.
> 
> And what we will certainly not do is compromise the uniform integration
> into systemd for some cosmetic improvements for non-systemd systems.
> 
> (Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you
> haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop
> that support entirely.)
> 
> Lennart
> 
> --
> Lennart Poettering - Red Hat, Inc.
> ========================================================================
> 
>   Plan B... toot... (blowing my own horn)
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev/Automount_USB
> 

Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[Alan Mackenzie]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 11:30:51AM +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:

> > http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html

> > (Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you
> > haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop
> > that support entirely.)

> > Lennart


> I would love to see the day when I could have a udev-free system, and leave
> UDEV/Poetterix to the lennartings...

> >   Plan B... toot... (blowing my own horn)
> > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev

> Walter,

> I'm confused about the xorg stuff in the WiKi. It mentions the evdev driver as
> critical, but at the Notes at the bottom you say "evdev need udev to be
> built". Can you clarify this?

For some X11 configs (notably mine) it was necessary explicitly to
configure evdev in xorg.conf.  This used to work with, e.g., Gnome2.  At
a later stage, evdev suddenly required the udev USE flag to build.  :-(
This was taken account of in part of the web page, but not in the xorg
description (which is now wrong).

The change to evdev prompted me to stop using an mdev system, since I
anticipated not having enough time to keep it working.  (New job, and
such like).  The way certain developers are trying to force the world and
his dog to use a rigid Red Hat specified configuration, I might be
changing my time priorities.

> Thanks

> Jorge Almeida

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[Jorge Almeida]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 11:30:51AM +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote:
>
>> I'm confused about the xorg stuff in the WiKi. It mentions the evdev driver as
>> critical, but at the Notes at the bottom you say "evdev need udev to be
>> built". Can you clarify this?
>
> For some X11 configs (notably mine) it was necessary explicitly to
> configure evdev in xorg.conf.  This used to work with, e.g., Gnome2.  At
> a later stage, evdev suddenly required the udev USE flag to build.  :-(
> This was taken account of in part of the web page, but not in the xorg
> description (which is now wrong).

I feared so. I read somewhere this is because xorg now asks udev about the
availability of evdev (writing from memory, can't find the reference). It
seems to me an artifice to force usage of udev. Are these people all in league
with each other?

>
> The change to evdev prompted me to stop using an mdev system, since I
> anticipated not having enough time to keep it working.  (New job, and
> such like).  The way certain developers are trying to force the world and
> his dog to use a rigid Red Hat specified configuration, I might be
> changing my time priorities.
>
Is it possible at all to drop udev and still use xorg? Are the old (i.e.,
pre-evdev) drivers still usable? Even if they are, I bet all future
developments will go the same way: force uniformity and submission.

Jorge Almeida

Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[Sebastian Beßler]

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On 08/12/12 15:04, Jorge Almeida wrote:

> Is it possible at all to drop udev and still use xorg? Are the old (i.e.,
> pre-evdev) drivers still usable? Even if they are, I bet all future
> developments will go the same way: force uniformity and submission.

The old kbd and mouse drivers for X still work without problem here.
Just set INPUT_DEVICES="keyboard mouse" in /etc/make.conf and rebuild
x11-base/xorg-drivers to get them.

Then you can configure them as ever in your xorg.conf.

Greetings
Sebastian Beßler


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Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[Walter Dnes]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 11:30:51AM +0100, Jorge Almeida wrote

> Walter,
> 
> I'm confused about the xorg stuff in the WiKi. It mentions the
> evdev driver as critical, but at the Notes at the bottom you say
> "evdev need udev to be built". Can you clarify this?

  I'll have to edit the wiki.  The statement was probably correct when
originally posted, but recent builds of xf86-input-evdev require
>=x11-base/xorg-server-1.10 built with the udev flag.  *SOME* xorg input
device drivers require xf86-input-evdev and therefore udev.  I'm running
a few machines fine without evdev/udev, and xorg.conf for that matter,
under ICEWM.  xf86-input-evdev may also be required by fancy "desktop
environments".  Window managers like blackbox, fluxbox, FVWM, ICEWM, etc
can be dressed up to look rather fancy, and use a lot less resources
than GNOME/KDE/UNITY.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Re: [gentoo-user] Straight from the horse's mouth

[Walter Dnes]

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 07:26:15PM +0800, William Kenworthy wrote
> Hi Walter, can you expand on the LVM2 problem you mention on the MDEV
> page and/or a link if there is one on the status?
> 
> I am building a new desktop (finally building as 64bit!) which will need
> lvm2 and after trying gnome3 for a couple of months on my existing
> machines, I have decided that its too unstable, too much of a resource
> hog and such a major productivity killer so its time to abandon ship.

  I personally use ICEWM.  It does the job, and I get an autohiding
launchbar along the bottom.  Thinking about this has inspired me to
change my sig.  See below.

> If I have to swim, I would like to use the opportunity to drop udev so I
> can avoid that train wreck as well.

  I've never used lvm so I'm the last person to ask.  See
http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/Unionfs-linuxrc which mentions lvm2 under
mdev

  Alpine Linux is a server-oriented distro that uses mdev instead of
udev.  If anybody has gotten stuff running under mdev, it's them.  See
http://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Setting_up_a_software_raid1_array for
some hints.  The article looks a bit old, so I don't know if it'll work
for you now.

  If you get it running, please let me know, and/or update the wiki.
I'm going on a little trip later this month, after I get back, I might
just set up a dedicated test machine with all sorts of stuff like lvm2
on it.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications