From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1S7Zne-0002kr-4L for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:02:34 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28472E08FB; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:02:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A12CE07B5 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:01:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhr17 with SMTP id hr17so1424341wib.10 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:01:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:organization :x-mailer:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vDHlYl5QxMdbtjWxDMolSqpGcSaXAXxgCAi8JMnGq5Q=; b=M8K80PpGbMU1ahgEYmEac4b7O5zzALCjnZAZZtb3RWXipcGLEpbg6O9pMzyEQTI7m5 aWMM351EtY0xBoEYNpYlJjr3QJKO2QAwgr3tK1caM3Sd7dsVIBITMT4lCLT0sUj0XrQI iw/pEmDuoFTePk6M4y8g+BW3nARjK9cjfMQ/Vcl+rE706vsjUseYGD0Za2027xflU1uz ddjgYNVAwGq/PduBU8Slbq03daJ+m4n4XUmNzE5wtGSbl8ARYMNrDPXf3IQunEqAeKD2 qrNIFjoS2aYfGVnfwDVJfQYvXWvzhjJGQXLpiZ07fFGk8x3wBGye5F8Biiif4UsA6hA5 J0LA== Received: by 10.180.83.72 with SMTP id o8mr539200wiy.5.1331676079372; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khamul.example.com (196-215-69-205.dynamic.isadsl.co.za. [196.215.69.205]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k7sm7817620wia.5.2012.03.13.15.01.08 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 00:00:23 +0200 From: Alan McKinnon To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Beta test Gentoo with mdev instead of udev; version 5 - failure :-( Message-ID: <20120314000023.002a403c@khamul.example.com> In-Reply-To: <2037392466.632130.1331674505331.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> References: <20111115062115.GA3262@waltdnes.org> <20111121104724.GC7461@waltdnes.org> <20111201194544.GD4455@waltdnes.org> <20120217234045.GA25390@waltdnes.org> <20120311090912.GA23850@waltdnes.org> <20120312092432.GA2959@acm.acm> <20120313073306.GC23544@waltdnes.org> <20120313130534.GB3457@acm.acm> <20120313190052.GA2430@waltdnes.org> <20120313194727.GB2536@acm.acm> <1652548889.629847.1331672072496.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> <2037392466.632130.1331674505331.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> Organization: Internet Solutions X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.10; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: c558bd97-594d-4069-be26-5240b5773838 X-Archives-Hash: 77b9300c7daa3526f794966876f15a8c On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:35:05 -0400 (EDT) "Bruce Hill, Jr." wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On March 13, 2012 at 5:22 PM "Canek Pel=E1ez Vald=E9s" > wrote: >=20 > > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Bruce Hill, Jr. > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On March 13, 2012 at 4:27 PM "Canek Pel=E1ez Vald=E9s" > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> "Fringe" programs will not require udev, or it will be optional; > > >> but the moment a "fringe" program reaches critical mass to become > > >> "maistream", the probability of it needing udev (directly or > > >> indirectly) will increase. > > >> > > >> I'm willing to bet a beer on that prediction. > > >> > > >> Regards. > > >> -- > > >> Canek Pel=E1ez Vald=E9s > > > > > > > > > > > > It _sounds_ like your definition of a "fringe" program is one > > > that does > not > > > need udev; but when it becomes "mainstream" it will need udev. If > > > not, > you > > > write us the definition of a "fringe" program and a "mainstream" > program. > > > > > > Excuse me, but that's just incredibly _arrogant_! > > > > Relax man. That's why "fringe" is written QUOTE fringe UNQUOTE, and > > "mainstream" is written QUOTE mainstream UNQUOTE. If it makes you > > happy, replace "fringe" with "GNOME/KDE/XFCE/lvm2-not-related" and > > "mainstream" with "GNOME/KDE/XFCE/lvm2-related". That's using the > > very same definition that Walter (the guy behind the > > mdev-instead-of-udev effort) used just three mails below (or above, > > depending on your email client). > > > > Please chill, no need to get all worked out. > > > > And I maintain my prediction. > > > > Regards. > > -- > > Canek Pel=E1ez Vald=E9s >=20 >=20 > So, what qualifies for "the moment a "fringe" program reaches > critical mass to become "maistream", the probability of it needing > udev (directly or indirectly) will increase." I'll start the reply with a joke. I read a tongue-in-cheek post somewhere recently (maybe even here) that for a program to be considered successful at MIT it always gets to a point where it can send and receive mail. Any program that can't send and receive mail is obviously not yet good enough for real-world use. Very tongue-in-cheek. But it's true enough. Hell, the monitoring guys at work use SMTP as transport for several time-critical monitor probes (a delay of 5 minutes causes all hell to break loose...) Why SMTP you ask? Well, because it's there. Because it's ubiquitous. Because you can panelbeat it to make it work even when you shouldn't. Because corporate coders are lazy. Because corporate coders don't know any better. Because all of the above. I really doubt the majority of apps requiring udev actually require udev itself. Maybe they just need nodes, or only need a node manager. Most likely, the dev looked at the scene, listed his possibilities and saw... udev, and nothing else. Therefore it requires udev. Which is about as logical as requiring /usr/ if you think about it. Changing this will take a huge mindshift on the part of large developer communities (outside of udev) to consider other possibilities. This will take a while, much like wrestling market share away from Apache. > Again, quoting _your_ definition. >=20 > I gave you examples of programs which have reached critical mass, > which don't require udev. > And, I'm not attaching your character, for I know you not ... just > attacking your FUD! I'm in the "let's not emulate Microsoft with udev" camp myself, but I also see the bigger picture. It's not only that udev is pushing it's agenda on the rest of the stack, one must also consider that the rest of the stack is doing things that require udev to react, and one of the fallout cases is separate /usr needing initramfs. I personally don't like it but I think I understand the ecosystem that produced it. --=20 Alan McKinnnon alan.mckinnon@gmail.com