From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1RhjVz-0007ho-Lz for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:09:32 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5485521C1FB; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 15:09:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9551321C29A for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 15:05:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhq2 with SMTP id hq2so9921830wib.40 for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:05:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:organization :x-mailer:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gkAmNl1wKo6xEiHskBgD7klwZoQBFyjlaDUsQCgYQPI=; b=MEDj2fgInoAWwMo4ZGpV8t2tzmABlQanHNGKR/HCjdDoS7VvQ6HJGQk1wlOKugsSUF RVKWGam2ETz1X47QHiXkANjElhmpJJZlbPNkwAIUOkeqHDZiTh9uVQuiwusHPY/9ICE7 AXsho2yPaKhBfBIsR4rbNsZV51mtsbpAjvXk4= Received: by 10.180.96.72 with SMTP id dq8mr106194520wib.10.1325516750839; Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:05:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rohan.example.com (196-215-2-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za. [196.215.2.107]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m13sm50950463wbh.0.2012.01.02.07.05.48 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 02 Jan 2012 07:05:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 17:05:44 +0200 From: Alan McKinnon To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] emerge --update behavior Message-ID: <20120102170544.1e1a5036@rohan.example.com> In-Reply-To: <4F01B62C.2050104@orlitzky.com> References: <4F00D521.1030702@orlitzky.com> <4F00DA52.1060504@gmail.com> <20120102115809.5259d3cf@rohan.example.com> <4F0184BB.5010307@gmail.com> <20120102125606.108b752b@rohan.example.com> <4F018FB8.1050001@gmail.com> <20120102133646.39d3583a@digimed.co.uk> <4F01B62C.2050104@orlitzky.com> Organization: Internet Solutions X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.8 (GTK+ 2.24.4; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archives-Salt: 34f66497-be47-4165-b70b-93eef7e46b8d X-Archives-Hash: 7c99deeedf8018cf9145498940fb2643 On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 08:50:36 -0500 Michael Orlitzky wrote: > On 01/02/2012 08:36 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote: > > On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 05:06:32 -0600, Dale wrote: > > > >> That's why I fixed the new way to be closer to what I am used to. > >> I added --oneshot to my make.conf. When I really need to add > >> something to world, I just use --select y -nav. To me, that is a > >> lot of extra steps to be "consistent". > > > > You are trying to be "consistent" with your memory of how things > > used to work (which is flawed, oneshot has been around a lot longer > > than you think). Zac is looking for self-consistency. > > > > Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where there is no > > overriding argument in favour of one way or the other, prejudice > > and inertia play more of a part than logic for most people. > > Sure there is: adding a package to the world file can screw up your > system if it's unintentional. > > *Not* adding the package to world when you do an update is *not* > harmful, because, > > * Nobody would use --update to install a new package > * Depclean can show you that you made a mistake > There's a deeper more fundamental assumption at work here, and it's the targeted userbase. Devs assume Gentoo users use Gentoo because the user wants control and tells the computer what to do. By and large that's how it works (except for catastrophic or unrecoverable errors like unmerging python or portage). So when the user tells portage to emerge (not merge) something it goes in world as obviously that's what the user wanted. Presumably the user knows what they are doing and can deal with both pieces. If the user would rather have software hold his hand, that user is better served by Windows or Ubuntu or any number of user-centric distros, but probably not by Gentoo. This isn't elitist, it's just the way things are. Portage's job is to listen to *you*, not to to tell you what you want. The automation portage provides is just the logical conclusion of what should happen in future after you emerged something. -- Alan McKinnnon alan.mckinnon@gmail.com