[gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[Willie Wong]

Hi list, 

I've not been keeping up with the developments in the Java world, and
now am getting a bit confused. 

Currently my computer is using the icedtea jdk, in fact, I am running
icedtea-bin-1.10.4. Today, portage wants to 

[ebuild     U  ] dev-java/icedtea-bin-6.1.10.4 [1.10.4]
[ebuild  N     ] sys-apps/attr-2.4.46-r1  USE="nls -static-libs"
[ebuild  NS    ] virtual/jre-1.7.0 [1.6.0]
[ebuild  N     ] dev-java/icedtea-7.2.0-r1  USE="nsplugin -debug -doc -examples -jamvm -javascript -pulseaudio -systemtap -webstart -zero"
[ebuild  NS    ] virtual/jdk-1.7.0 [1.6.0]
[ebuild  N     ] dev-java/icedtea-web-1.1.3-r7  USE="nsplugin -build -doc"


And apparently I have many different choices of icedtea:

*  dev-java/icedtea
      Latest version available: 7.2.0-r1
      Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
      Size of files: 65,904 kB
      Homepage:      http://icedtea.classpath.org
      Description:   A harness to build OpenJDK using Free Software build tools and dependencies
      License:       Apache-1.1 Apache-2.0 GPL-1 GPL-2 GPL-2-with-linking-exception LGPL-2 MPL-1.0 MPL-1.1 public-domain W3C

*  dev-java/icedtea-bin
      Latest version available: 6.1.10.4
      Latest version installed: 1.10.4
      Size of files: 36,173 kB
      Homepage:      http://icedtea.classpath.org
      Description:   A Gentoo-made binary build of the Icedtea6 JDK
      License:       GPL-2-with-linking-exception

*  dev-java/icedtea-web
      Latest version available: 1.1.3-r7
      Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
      Size of files: 791 kB
      Homepage:      http://icedtea.classpath.org
      Description:   FOSS Java browser plugin and Web Start implementation
      License:       GPL-2 GPL-2-with-linking-exception LGPL-2

I figure that icedtea-bin is the binary version of icedtea, but 

 (i) What is icedtea-web?
 (ii) Why the version jump from 1.10.4 to 6.1.10.4?
 (iii) Why is the -bin one major version behind icedtee?
 (iv) Do I really need to have so many different java things on my computer?

Thanks, 

W

-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:02:35 -0500
Willie Wong <wwong@math.princeton.edu> wrote:

> Hi list, 
> 
> I've not been keeping up with the developments in the Java world, and
> now am getting a bit confused. 
> 
> Currently my computer is using the icedtea jdk, in fact, I am running
> icedtea-bin-1.10.4. Today, portage wants to 
> 
> [ebuild     U  ] dev-java/icedtea-bin-6.1.10.4 [1.10.4]
> [ebuild  N     ] sys-apps/attr-2.4.46-r1  USE="nls -static-libs"
> [ebuild  NS    ] virtual/jre-1.7.0 [1.6.0]
> [ebuild  N     ] dev-java/icedtea-7.2.0-r1  USE="nsplugin -debug -doc
> -examples -jamvm -javascript -pulseaudio -systemtap -webstart
> -zero" [ebuild  NS    ] virtual/jdk-1.7.0 [1.6.0] [ebuild  N     ]
> dev-java/icedtea-web-1.1.3-r7  USE="nsplugin -build -doc"
> 
> 
> And apparently I have many different choices of icedtea:
> 
> *  dev-java/icedtea
>       Latest version available: 7.2.0-r1
>       Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
>       Size of files: 65,904 kB
>       Homepage:      http://icedtea.classpath.org
>       Description:   A harness to build OpenJDK using Free Software
> build tools and dependencies License:       Apache-1.1 Apache-2.0
> GPL-1 GPL-2 GPL-2-with-linking-exception LGPL-2 MPL-1.0 MPL-1.1
> public-domain W3C
> 
> *  dev-java/icedtea-bin
>       Latest version available: 6.1.10.4
>       Latest version installed: 1.10.4
>       Size of files: 36,173 kB
>       Homepage:      http://icedtea.classpath.org
>       Description:   A Gentoo-made binary build of the Icedtea6 JDK
>       License:       GPL-2-with-linking-exception
> 
> *  dev-java/icedtea-web
>       Latest version available: 1.1.3-r7
>       Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
>       Size of files: 791 kB
>       Homepage:      http://icedtea.classpath.org
>       Description:   FOSS Java browser plugin and Web Start
> implementation License:       GPL-2 GPL-2-with-linking-exception
> LGPL-2
> 
> I figure that icedtea-bin is the binary version of icedtea, but 
> 
>  (i) What is icedtea-web?

If you had actually clicked on the homepage link in the emerge -s
output you posted, you would have seen in the very first bullet point
right at the start of the page that icedtea-web is mostly Java Web Start

>  (ii) Why the version jump from 1.10.4 to 6.1.10.4?

Look carefully. It's not a version jump, just the addition of a 6.
prefix. It's to bring the -bin package version into line with the
source code version

>  (iii) Why is the -bin one major version behind icedtee?

No idea. You should ask the builder of the bin packages. The likely
reason is that he hasn't gotten around to building it yet
 
>  (iv) Do I really need to have so many different java things on my
> computer?

Do you need to have so many different browsers on your computer?
How about editors? Or for that matter why do you have so many coding
languages available? How about openoffice?

It's not "so many", that's a ridiculous assertion. First you have
a choice between iced-tea built from source or a bin package. Firefox
and OOo do the same. Then there's icedtea-web which is a whole
different package altogether, implementing Java Web Start (which is not
the java language, the sdk or a jvm).

So, if you want Java as implemented by iced-tea, pick between source
and -bin. If you want JWS, then emerge that too.

Did you even attempt to google this and find answers yourself?



-- 
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[Florian Philipp]

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Am 10.11.2011 22:01, schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:02:35 -0500
> Willie Wong <wwong@math.princeton.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Hi list, 
>>
>> I've not been keeping up with the developments in the Java world, and
>> now am getting a bit confused. 
>>
>> Currently my computer is using the icedtea jdk, in fact, I am running
>> icedtea-bin-1.10.4. Today, portage wants to 
>>
>> [ebuild     U  ] dev-java/icedtea-bin-6.1.10.4 [1.10.4]
>> [ebuild  N     ] sys-apps/attr-2.4.46-r1  USE="nls -static-libs"
>> [ebuild  NS    ] virtual/jre-1.7.0 [1.6.0]
>> [ebuild  N     ] dev-java/icedtea-7.2.0-r1  USE="nsplugin -debug -doc
>> -examples -jamvm -javascript -pulseaudio -systemtap -webstart
>> -zero" [ebuild  NS    ] virtual/jdk-1.7.0 [1.6.0] [ebuild  N     ]
>> dev-java/icedtea-web-1.1.3-r7  USE="nsplugin -build -doc"
>>
[...]
>>
>> I figure that icedtea-bin is the binary version of icedtea, but 
>>
>>  (i) What is icedtea-web?
> 
> If you had actually clicked on the homepage link in the emerge -s
> output you posted, you would have seen in the very first bullet point
> right at the start of the page that icedtea-web is mostly Java Web Start
> 
>>  (ii) Why the version jump from 1.10.4 to 6.1.10.4?
> 
> Look carefully. It's not a version jump, just the addition of a 6.
> prefix. It's to bring the -bin package version into line with the
> source code version
> 
>>  (iii) Why is the -bin one major version behind icedtee?
> 
> No idea. You should ask the builder of the bin packages. The likely
> reason is that he hasn't gotten around to building it yet
>  

Or maybe the build system is stable enough for general use. If someone
can share some experience with the source build, I'd like to hear about it.

>>  (iv) Do I really need to have so many different java things on my
>> computer?
> 
> Do you need to have so many different browsers on your computer?
> How about editors? Or for that matter why do you have so many coding
> languages available? How about openoffice?
> 
> It's not "so many", that's a ridiculous assertion. First you have
> a choice between iced-tea built from source or a bin package. Firefox
> and OOo do the same. Then there's icedtea-web which is a whole
> different package altogether, implementing Java Web Start (which is not
> the java language, the sdk or a jvm).
> 
> So, if you want Java as implemented by iced-tea, pick between source
> and -bin. If you want JWS, then emerge that too.
> 
> Did you even attempt to google this and find answers yourself?
> 

Well, while Willie picks himself up after being slammed like this (Had
bad day, Alan?), I might add that the only reason why portage wants to
emerge icedtea and icedtea-bin is that apparently virtual/jre:1.7 has
been keyworded. On a stable system, this should not happen. At least for
me, it still reads
KEYWORDS="~amd64 ~x86"

Regards,
Florian Philipp


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Re: [gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[Florian Philipp]

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Am 11.11.2011 00:00, schrieb Florian Philipp:
> Am 10.11.2011 22:01, schrieb Alan McKinnon:
>> On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:02:35 -0500
>> Willie Wong <wwong@math.princeton.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi list, 
>>>
>>> I've not been keeping up with the developments in the Java world, and
>>> now am getting a bit confused. 
>>>
>>> Currently my computer is using the icedtea jdk, in fact, I am running
>>> icedtea-bin-1.10.4. Today, portage wants to 
>>>
>>> [ebuild     U  ] dev-java/icedtea-bin-6.1.10.4 [1.10.4]
>>> [ebuild  N     ] sys-apps/attr-2.4.46-r1  USE="nls -static-libs"
>>> [ebuild  NS    ] virtual/jre-1.7.0 [1.6.0]
>>> [ebuild  N     ] dev-java/icedtea-7.2.0-r1  USE="nsplugin -debug -doc
>>> -examples -jamvm -javascript -pulseaudio -systemtap -webstart
>>> -zero" [ebuild  NS    ] virtual/jdk-1.7.0 [1.6.0] [ebuild  N     ]
>>> dev-java/icedtea-web-1.1.3-r7  USE="nsplugin -build -doc"
>>>
> [...]
>>>
>>> I figure that icedtea-bin is the binary version of icedtea, but 
>>>
>>>  (i) What is icedtea-web?
>>
>> If you had actually clicked on the homepage link in the emerge -s
>> output you posted, you would have seen in the very first bullet point
>> right at the start of the page that icedtea-web is mostly Java Web Start
>>
>>>  (ii) Why the version jump from 1.10.4 to 6.1.10.4?
>>
>> Look carefully. It's not a version jump, just the addition of a 6.
>> prefix. It's to bring the -bin package version into line with the
>> source code version
>>
>>>  (iii) Why is the -bin one major version behind icedtee?
>>
>> No idea. You should ask the builder of the bin packages. The likely
>> reason is that he hasn't gotten around to building it yet
>>  
> 
> Or maybe the build system is stable enough for general use. If someone
> can share some experience with the source build, I'd like to hear about it.
> 

The build system of the source build, of course.



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Re: [gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[Andrea Conti]

>> Or maybe the build system is stable enough for general use. If someone
>> can share some experience with the source build, I'd like to hear about it.
>>
> 
> The build system of the source build, of course.

Well, it works, and my impression is that it's a bit faster than
icedtea-6 (the build system, I mean). Unless you've got time to spare,
though, I wouldn't recommend building from source on anything else than
a recent machine.

Then there's the usual catch that you need to have a jdk installed in
order to build icedtea -- so the first time you cannot use the source
ebuild.

andrea

Re: [gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[Willie Wong]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:00:51AM +0100, Florian Philipp wrote:
> Well, while Willie picks himself up after being slammed like this (Had
> bad day, Alan?), I might add that the only reason why portage wants to
> emerge icedtea and icedtea-bin is that apparently virtual/jre:1.7 has
> been keyworded. On a stable system, this should not happen. At least for
> me, it still reads
> KEYWORDS="~amd64 ~x86"
> 
And the only thing that satisfies virtual/j{dk,re}:1.7 right now is the
oracle-jdk binaries and icedtea-7...

The list of RDEPENDS for jdk and jre 1.7 is surprisingly short
compared to that of the 1.6 version. I guess I'll just ignore that
update for now and wait for the -bin version [1]

[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=388917

Thanks, Florian, for hinting me to the right direction, 

W

-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[Willie Wong]

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 11:01:56PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >  (i) What is icedtea-web?
> 
> If you had actually clicked on the homepage link in the emerge -s
> output you posted, you would have seen in the very first bullet point
> right at the start of the page that icedtea-web is mostly Java Web Start

The problem is: that doesn't help me at all. What the heck is Web
Start? The corporate-lese at 
 http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/tech/index-jsp-136112.html
doesn't really tell me why or whether I need it. 

> >  (iv) Do I really need to have so many different java things on my
> > computer?
> 
> Do you need to have so many different browsers on your computer?
> How about editors? Or for that matter why do you have so many coding
> languages available? How about openoffice?
> 
> It's not "so many", that's a ridiculous assertion. First you have
> a choice between iced-tea built from source or a bin package. Firefox
> and OOo do the same. Then there's icedtea-web which is a whole
> different package altogether, implementing Java Web Start (which is not
> the java language, the sdk or a jvm).
> 
> So, if you want Java as implemented by iced-tea, pick between source
> and -bin. If you want JWS, then emerge that too.
> 
> Did you even attempt to google this and find answers yourself?

Did you read my question? The problem is not that so many JDKs are
available. The problem is "why does portage want to install them all"?
(Scroll up to the top of my message and see the emerge --update output
which wants to SLOT all three of icedtea, icedtea-bin, icedtea-web.)

So cut the snark, Alan. To spell out the question for you more
clearly:

Why does portage want to install ALL three kinds of icedteas,
when all I really need is a JRE? Is there some subtle differences
between the three such that I must have all three available? Is the
6->7 major version update one which they significantly changed the API
so things start breaking left and right? 

<rant>
I have two GCCs on my computer because some legacy code won't build
with GCC4. I have both perl and python for the obvious reasons. I've
long exorcised Emacs because I never use it and prefer Vim. So I do
know a thing or two about this "choice" business in FOSS. What I don't
know (as I admitted so much in the first sentence of my original post)
is Java. I don't code in it. I don't (to the best of my knowledge)
have any packages installed via portage that has code written in Java.
All I need is a JRE to look at some applets on the internet and run a
couple pre-compiled Java applications on my desktop. It may be that I 
somehow acquired a need for a JDK and I forgot, I don't know, but why
is it that portage wants to installed two JDKS and on top of that some
web-based JRE at the same time? 
</rant>

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[Fredric Johansson]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Willie Wong <wwong@math.princeton.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 11:01:56PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> >  (i) What is icedtea-web?
>>
>> If you had actually clicked on the homepage link in the emerge -s
>> output you posted, you would have seen in the very first bullet point
>> right at the start of the page that icedtea-web is mostly Java Web Start
>
> The problem is: that doesn't help me at all. What the heck is Web
> Start? The corporate-lese at
>  http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/tech/index-jsp-136112.html
> doesn't really tell me why or whether I need it.
>
...snip...
> Did you read my question? The problem is not that so many JDKs are
> available. The problem is "why does portage want to install them all"?
> (Scroll up to the top of my message and see the emerge --update output
> which wants to SLOT all three of icedtea, icedtea-bin, icedtea-web.)
>
> So cut the snark, Alan. To spell out the question for you more
> clearly:

I can't say he had the friendliest reply but he had a point, if you
read the eix output it says that icedtea-web apparently is a browser
plugin

>
> Why does portage want to install ALL three kinds of icedteas,
> when all I really need is a JRE? Is there some subtle differences
> between the three such that I must have all three available? Is the
> 6->7 major version update one which they significantly changed the API
> so things start breaking left and right?

using emerge with the  '-t' option can be very helpful in these case

//Fredric

Re: [gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[Florian Philipp]

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Am 11.11.2011 11:16, schrieb Willie Wong:
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 11:01:56PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>>  (i) What is icedtea-web?
>>
>> If you had actually clicked on the homepage link in the emerge -s
>> output you posted, you would have seen in the very first bullet point
>> right at the start of the page that icedtea-web is mostly Java Web Start
> 
> The problem is: that doesn't help me at all. What the heck is Web
> Start? The corporate-lese at 
>  http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/tech/index-jsp-136112.html
> doesn't really tell me why or whether I need it. 
> 

It is the applet launcher you mentioned further down in your email. It
also allows starting standalone applications straight from the web.
There is a difference between these two capabilities but I think they
are now served by the same plugin.

>>>  (iv) Do I really need to have so many different java things on my
>>> computer?
>>
[...]
>> So, if you want Java as implemented by iced-tea, pick between source
>> and -bin. If you want JWS, then emerge that too.
>>
>> Did you even attempt to google this and find answers yourself?
> 
> Did you read my question? The problem is not that so many JDKs are
> available. The problem is "why does portage want to install them all"?
> (Scroll up to the top of my message and see the emerge --update output
> which wants to SLOT all three of icedtea, icedtea-bin, icedtea-web.)
> 
> So cut the snark, Alan. To spell out the question for you more
> clearly:
> 
> Why does portage want to install ALL three kinds of icedteas,
> when all I really need is a JRE? Is there some subtle differences
> between the three such that I must have all three available? Is the
> 6->7 major version update one which they significantly changed the API
> so things start breaking left and right? 
> 

Yes, there are new features and APIs available with java 1.7 but I doubt
any applications in the stable portage tree already use these. Otherwise
it should be backwards compatible.

Since 1.7 is pretty new I guess there are still many packages explicitly
requiring virtual/jdk:6 just because the devs haven't yet tested the
transition. On the other hand, some packages will just require
virtual/jdk and therefore trigger portage to install the newer slot.

> <rant>
[...]
> What I don't
> know (as I admitted so much in the first sentence of my original post)
> is Java. I don't code in it. I don't (to the best of my knowledge)
> have any packages installed via portage that has code written in Java.
> All I need is a JRE to look at some applets on the internet and run a
> couple pre-compiled Java applications on my desktop. It may be that I 
> somehow acquired a need for a JDK and I forgot, I don't know, but why
> is it that portage wants to installed two JDKS and on top of that some
> web-based JRE at the same time? 
> </rant>
> 
> W

To find out why portage wants the JDK, run `emerge -pv --depclean
virtual/jdk`. Repeat until you find @world or something looking familiar.

I bet you have LibreOffice installed with USE="java". There is an old
thread from earlier this year which describes what functionality you
loose when you deactivate that flag. All things considered, though, I
think it will be faster to install a JDK than to re-emerge LibreOffice
with USE="-java".

Regards,
Florian Philipp


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Re: [gentoo-user] java java everywhere

[Willie Wong]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 08:07:43PM +0100, Florian Philipp wrote:
> To find out why portage wants the JDK, run `emerge -pv --depclean
> virtual/jdk`. Repeat until you find @world or something looking familiar.
> 
> I bet you have LibreOffice installed with USE="java". There is an old
> thread from earlier this year which describes what functionality you
> loose when you deactivate that flag. All things considered, though, I
> think it will be faster to install a JDK than to re-emerge LibreOffice
> with USE="-java".
> 
Heh, you guess wrong :p

I actually just have virtual/jdk in world (I can't remember why I
didn't use virtual/jre instead) because of some binaries-only,
non-portage stuff I run. 

What caught me off-guard was the fact that the upgrade did not offer
the -bin option. (Which, as I mentioned in a different branch of this
thread, you helped me figure out "why".)

Thank you again for all the help, 

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton