Re: [gentoo-user] OT: website design

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 03:00:01AM +0200, Stroller wrote:
> 
> On 3 June 2011, at 08:44, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > ...
> > So it's like that Java-based gmail client for smartphones? The one that can 
> > only top posts and gives the user no way to do it otherwise.
> 
> I thought *every* mail client for smart phones did that, these days, and that we on this list had gone from being a bunch of intolerant geek assholes (genuinely not looking at anyone specific here) who could not accept top-posting under any circumstances to permitting it from those devices.
> 

Where's the fun in that?

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: website design

[Dale]

Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 03:00:01AM +0200, Stroller wrote:
>    
>> On 3 June 2011, at 08:44, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>      
>>> ...
>>> So it's like that Java-based gmail client for smartphones? The one that can
>>> only top posts and gives the user no way to do it otherwise.
>>>        
>> I thought *every* mail client for smart phones did that, these days, and that we on this list had gone from being a bunch of intolerant geek assholes (genuinely not looking at anyone specific here) who could not accept top-posting under any circumstances to permitting it from those devices.
>>
>>      
> Where's the fun in that?
>    

What I would like to know is why some threads get broken up?  My mail 
client here follows these conversations as threads.  For some reason, 
recently the threads are getting broken as if someone started a fresh one.

I'm sure this is not intentional and may not be avoidable but it makes 
it difficult to follow the conversation.

Is the same happening for others or is it just picking on me?

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: website design

[Stroller]

On 4 June 2011, at 02:33, Dale wrote:
> …
> What I would like to know is why some threads get broken up?  My mail client here follows these conversations as threads.  For some reason, recently the threads are getting broken as if someone started a fresh one.
> 
> I'm sure this is not intentional and may not be avoidable but it makes it difficult to follow the conversation.
> 
> Is the same happening for others or is it just picking on me?

Blimey!

I'm so glad you mentioned it.

Having recently moved to a new mail client (major version) I assumed it was just me that was experiencing this problem.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

Stroller wrote:
> On 4 June 2011, at 02:33, Dale wrote:
>    
>> …
>> What I would like to know is why some threads get broken up?  My mail client here follows these conversations as threads.  For some reason, recently the threads are getting broken as if someone started a fresh one.
>>
>> I'm sure this is not intentional and may not be avoidable but it makes it difficult to follow the conversation.
>>
>> Is the same happening for others or is it just picking on me?
>>      
> Blimey!
>
> I'm so glad you mentioned it.
>
> Having recently moved to a new mail client (major version) I assumed it was just me that was experiencing this problem.
>
> Stroller.
>
>    

Nope, it's not just you.  I suspect it is some mobile phone or something 
that is doing it and that the user(s) don't even know it is happening.  
I just know it makes things hard to follow.  Sort of like top posters.  
They can't change it but it is still annoying as heck.  ;-)

The thread "Cleaning redundant configuration files" is the worst.  I 
just went back and looked.  David W Noon is usually where it starts.  
David, what you got going on there my friend?  You using a mobile device 
or something?  ;-)  Just curious.

Now watch him not read this message.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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On Saturday 04 Jun 2011 04:27:03 Dale wrote:
> Stroller wrote:
> > On 4 June 2011, at 02:33, Dale wrote:
> >> …
> >> What I would like to know is why some threads get broken up?  My mail
> >> client here follows these conversations as threads.  For some reason,
> >> recently the threads are getting broken as if someone started a fresh
> >> one.
> >> 
> >> I'm sure this is not intentional and may not be avoidable but it makes
> >> it difficult to follow the conversation.
> >> 
> >> Is the same happening for others or is it just picking on me?
> > 
> > Blimey!
> > 
> > I'm so glad you mentioned it.
> > 
> > Having recently moved to a new mail client (major version) I assumed it
> > was just me that was experiencing this problem.
> > 
> > Stroller.
> 
> Nope, it's not just you.  I suspect it is some mobile phone or something
> that is doing it and that the user(s) don't even know it is happening.
> I just know it makes things hard to follow.  Sort of like top posters.
> They can't change it but it is still annoying as heck.  ;-)
> 
> The thread "Cleaning redundant configuration files" is the worst.  I
> just went back and looked.  David W Noon is usually where it starts.
> David, what you got going on there my friend?  You using a mobile device
> or something?  ;-)  Just curious.
> 
> Now watch him not read this message.  lol
> 
> Dale
> 
> :-)  :-)

Are you sure it is DW Noon?  His mail client seems legit:

  X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.8 (GTK+ 2.22.1; i686-pc-linux-gnu)

PS. I haven't noticed the broken threads you mention here (using Kmail).  Can 
you please point me to a thread/message where the break occurs?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 10:35 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Mick did opine 
thusly:

> On Saturday 04 Jun 2011 04:27:03 Dale wrote:
> > Stroller wrote:
> > > On 4 June 2011, at 02:33, Dale wrote:
> > >> …
> > >> What I would like to know is why some threads get broken up?  My mail
> > >> client here follows these conversations as threads.  For some reason,
> > >> recently the threads are getting broken as if someone started a fresh
> > >> one.
> > >> 
> > >> I'm sure this is not intentional and may not be avoidable but it makes
> > >> it difficult to follow the conversation.
> > >> 
> > >> Is the same happening for others or is it just picking on me?
> > > 
> > > Blimey!
> > > 
> > > I'm so glad you mentioned it.
> > > 
> > > Having recently moved to a new mail client (major version) I assumed it
> > > was just me that was experiencing this problem.
> > > 
> > > Stroller.
> > 
> > Nope, it's not just you.  I suspect it is some mobile phone or something
> > that is doing it and that the user(s) don't even know it is happening.
> > I just know it makes things hard to follow.  Sort of like top posters.
> > They can't change it but it is still annoying as heck.  ;-)
> > 
> > The thread "Cleaning redundant configuration files" is the worst.  I
> > just went back and looked.  David W Noon is usually where it starts.
> > David, what you got going on there my friend?  You using a mobile device
> > or something?  ;-)  Just curious.
> > 
> > Now watch him not read this message.  lol
> > 
> > Dale
> > 
> > :-)  :-)
> 
> Are you sure it is DW Noon?  His mail client seems legit:
> 
>   X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.8 (GTK+ 2.22.1; i686-pc-linux-gnu)
> 
> PS. I haven't noticed the broken threads you mention here (using Kmail). 
> Can you please point me to a thread/message where the break occurs?

Latest kmail seems to be trying to be clever with displaying mails. Try this:

View -> Message List -> Aggregation and set it to Current Activity, Threaded

most of the broken threads will seem to be broken by Indi. Now change it to 
Standard Mailing List and threading mostly goes back to being normal.

I don't think the broken threads are anyone's mailer, I think it's kmail doing 
Aggregation based on today/not today first. Check the description notes in 
View -> Message List -> Aggregation -> Configure...


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Marc Joliet]

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Am Sat, 4 Jun 2011 09:35:32 +0100
schrieb Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com>:

> On Saturday 04 Jun 2011 04:27:03 Dale wrote:
> > Stroller wrote:
> > > On 4 June 2011, at 02:33, Dale wrote:
> > >> …
[...]
> 
> Are you sure it is DW Noon?  His mail client seems legit:
> 
>   X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.8 (GTK+ 2.22.1; i686-pc-linux-gnu)
> 
> PS. I haven't noticed the broken threads you mention here (using Kmail).  Can 
> you please point me to a thread/message where the break occurs?

I noticed it with DW Noon, too, although it also happened with Indi. I'm
using Claws-Mail myself.

-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup

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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 04.06.2011 12:37, schrieb Marc Joliet:

> I noticed it with DW Noon, too, although it also happened with Indi. I'm
> using Claws-Mail myself.

I have Thunderbird and see this breakings too, it is really annoing.

Greetings

Sebastian


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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> Am 04.06.2011 12:37, schrieb Marc Joliet:
>
>    
>> I noticed it with DW Noon, too, although it also happened with Indi. I'm
>> using Claws-Mail myself.
>>      
> I have Thunderbird and see this breakings too, it is really annoing.
>
> Greetings
>
> Sebastian
>
>    

I'm using Seamonkey for my email.  It does appear that it happens with 
Indi to tho.

This thread is now broken up into a few discussions as well.  No clue 
what order things are supposed to be in so just replying as I get to 
them.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:05:24AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> 
> I'm using Seamonkey for my email.  It does appear that it happens with 
> Indi to tho.
> 
> This thread is now broken up into a few discussions as well.  No clue 
> what order things are supposed to be in so just replying as I get to 
> them.  lol
> 
> 

Hopefully this one is better, as it's a reply to the email rather than 
to the mail2news gateway.

Sorry for any inconvenience, and maybe that issue should be in a FAQ 
on the usenet group and mentioned in the list page now that we know?
:)

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:05:24AM -0500, Dale wrote:
>    
>> I'm using Seamonkey for my email.  It does appear that it happens with
>> Indi to tho.
>>
>> This thread is now broken up into a few discussions as well.  No clue
>> what order things are supposed to be in so just replying as I get to
>> them.  lol
>>
>>
>>      
> Hopefully this one is better, as it's a reply to the email rather than
> to the mail2news gateway.
>
> Sorry for any inconvenience, and maybe that issue should be in a FAQ
> on the usenet group and mentioned in the list page now that we know?
> :)
>
>    

That one was inline with the rest.  Yeppie !!

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:22:57AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> Indi wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:05:24AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> >    
> >> I'm using Seamonkey for my email.  It does appear that it happens with
> >> Indi to tho.
> >>
> >> This thread is now broken up into a few discussions as well.  No clue
> >> what order things are supposed to be in so just replying as I get to
> >> them.  lol
> >>
> >>
> >>      
> > Hopefully this one is better, as it's a reply to the email rather than
> > to the mail2news gateway.
> >
> > Sorry for any inconvenience, and maybe that issue should be in a FAQ
> > on the usenet group and mentioned in the list page now that we know?
> > :)
> >
> >    
> 
> That one was inline with the rest.  Yeppie !!
> 

Thanks for the confirmation, and for mentioning it in the first place.
I couldn't tell of course, because they all looked fine on usenet and 
there was no local email to compare the view.

It's a bit embarrassing to be "the threadbreaker", but at least it wasn't 
my fault. :P

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:22:57AM -0500, Dale wrote:
>    
>>
>> That one was inline with the rest.  Yeppie !!
>>
>>      
> Thanks for the confirmation, and for mentioning it in the first place.
> I couldn't tell of course, because they all looked fine on usenet and
> there was no local email to compare the view.
>
> It's a bit embarrassing to be "the threadbreaker", but at least it wasn't
> my fault. :P
>
>    

I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort of like top 
posting.  Some people have to top post because the device they are using 
won't let them reply any other way.

I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed somewhere 
to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using.  I 
just know this is going to happen again.

One reason I mentioned it was because I had recompiled Seamonkey and it 
started about that time.  I wanted to find out if it was a Seamonkey bug 
or what.  Now we know.

We are back to normal again.  :-)   Then again, I never was normal 
anyway.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> 
> I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort of like top 
> posting.  Some people have to top post because the device they are using 
> won't let them reply any other way.
> 
> I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed somewhere 
> to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using. 

As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference between
usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It actually
shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked around a
couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the email like 
"normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)

 
> I just know this is going to happen again.
> 

It always will, due to lack of completeness and/or accuracy in various 
MUAs' conformity to standards.  

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 17:20 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> > I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort of like top
> > posting.  Some people have to top post because the device they are using
> > won't let them reply any other way.
> > 
> > I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed somewhere
> > to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using.
> 
> As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference between
> usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It actually
> shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked around a
> couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the email like
> "normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)

FWIW,

If I set kmail to display just routine ordinary threaded mail there's a lot 
less thread breakage. It's not all gone, but it is considerably less.

Setting kmail to display threads based on "activity" - whatever the blazes 
that is - breaks things wholesale. I haven't managed to narrow it down at all 
so I have no idea what the algorithm is.

Looks like there's more to this than just usernet<->mail gateway brokenness

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:11:09PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:20 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> > > I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort of like top
> > > posting.  Some people have to top post because the device they are using
> > > won't let them reply any other way.
> > > 
> > > I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed somewhere
> > > to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using.
> > 
> > As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference between
> > usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It actually
> > shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked around a
> > couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the email like
> > "normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)
> 
> FWIW,
> 
> If I set kmail to display just routine ordinary threaded mail there's a lot 
> less thread breakage. It's not all gone, but it is considerably less.
> 
> Setting kmail to display threads based on "activity" - whatever the blazes 
> that is - breaks things wholesale. I haven't managed to narrow it down at all 
> so I have no idea what the algorithm is.
> 
> Looks like there's more to this than just usernet<->mail gateway brokenness
> 

I'd switch if *mutt* was breaking threading for other people, but I'm
pretty sure it isn't. Now kmail and the other pointy-clicky-html-loving
apps, *those* I don't trust...  Tried 'em, found 'em wanting. ;)

It would be good to hear from more people running different MUAs, 
but IMO mutt is the Gold Standard and is almost certaily doing what it's
supposed to do. 

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[kashani]

On 6/4/2011 11:43 AM, Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:11:09PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:20 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi did opine
>> thusly:
>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
>>>> I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort of like top
>>>> posting.  Some people have to top post because the device they are using
>>>> won't let them reply any other way.
>>>>
>>>> I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed somewhere
>>>> to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using.
>>>
>>> As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference between
>>> usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It actually
>>> shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked around a
>>> couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the email like
>>> "normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)
>>
>> FWIW,
>>
>> If I set kmail to display just routine ordinary threaded mail there's a lot
>> less thread breakage. It's not all gone, but it is considerably less.
>>
>> Setting kmail to display threads based on "activity" - whatever the blazes
>> that is - breaks things wholesale. I haven't managed to narrow it down at all
>> so I have no idea what the algorithm is.
>>
>> Looks like there's more to this than just usernet<->mail gateway brokenness
>>
>
> I'd switch if *mutt* was breaking threading for other people, but I'm
> pretty sure it isn't. Now kmail and the other pointy-clicky-html-loving
> apps, *those* I don't trust...  Tried 'em, found 'em wanting. ;)
>
> It would be good to hear from more people running different MUAs,
> but IMO mutt is the Gold Standard and is almost certaily doing what it's
> supposed to do.
>

Whatever you're using is breaking threading in Thunderbird and I can't 
think of anyone else lately I've had the problem with. Also mutt has 
broken threading in the past and even between different versions of 
itself... so calling it a gold standard may be an overstatement.

kashani

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:59:52AM -0700, kashani wrote:
> On 6/4/2011 11:43 AM, Indi wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:11:09PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:20 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi did opine
> >> thusly:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> >>>> I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort of like top
> >>>> posting.  Some people have to top post because the device they are using
> >>>> won't let them reply any other way.
> >>>>
> >>>> I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed somewhere
> >>>> to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using.
> >>>
> >>> As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference between
> >>> usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It actually
> >>> shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked around a
> >>> couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the email like
> >>> "normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)
> >>
> >> FWIW,
> >>
> >> If I set kmail to display just routine ordinary threaded mail there's a lot
> >> less thread breakage. It's not all gone, but it is considerably less.
> >>
> >> Setting kmail to display threads based on "activity" - whatever the blazes
> >> that is - breaks things wholesale. I haven't managed to narrow it down at all
> >> so I have no idea what the algorithm is.
> >>
> >> Looks like there's more to this than just usernet<->mail gateway brokenness
> >>
> >
> > I'd switch if *mutt* was breaking threading for other people, but I'm
> > pretty sure it isn't. Now kmail and the other pointy-clicky-html-loving
> > apps, *those* I don't trust...  Tried 'em, found 'em wanting. ;)
> >
> > It would be good to hear from more people running different MUAs,
> > but IMO mutt is the Gold Standard and is almost certaily doing what it's
> > supposed to do.
> >
> 
> Whatever you're using is breaking threading in Thunderbird and I can't 
> think of anyone else lately I've had the problem with. Also mutt has 
> broken threading in the past and even between different versions of 
> itself... so calling it a gold standard may be an overstatement.
> 

Thanks for reporting on Thunderbird.

When you say "mutt has broken threading in the past", can 
you please be more specific? AFAIK there have been no problems 
like that in a couple of years.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Saturday 04 June 2011 11:59:52 kashani wrote:
> On 6/4/2011 11:43 AM, Indi wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:11:09PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:20 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi
> >> did opine
> >> 
> >> thusly:
> >>> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> >>>> I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort of like
> >>>> top
> >>>> posting.  Some people have to top post because the device they are
> >>>> using won't let them reply any other way.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed
> >>>> somewhere
> >>>> to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using.
> >>> 
> >>> As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference between
> >>> usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It actually
> >>> shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked around a
> >>> couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the email like
> >>> "normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)
> >> 
> >> FWIW,
> >> 
> >> If I set kmail to display just routine ordinary threaded mail there's
> >> a lot less thread breakage. It's not all gone, but it is considerably
> >> less.
> >> 
> >> Setting kmail to display threads based on "activity" - whatever the
> >> blazes that is - breaks things wholesale. I haven't managed to narrow
> >> it down at all so I have no idea what the algorithm is.
> >> 
> >> Looks like there's more to this than just usernet<->mail gateway
> >> brokenness
> > 
> > I'd switch if *mutt* was breaking threading for other people, but I'm
> > pretty sure it isn't. Now kmail and the other pointy-clicky-html-loving
> > apps, *those* I don't trust...  Tried 'em, found 'em wanting. ;)
> > 
> > It would be good to hear from more people running different MUAs,
> > but IMO mutt is the Gold Standard and is almost certaily doing what it's
> > supposed to do.
> 
> Whatever you're using is breaking threading in Thunderbird and I can't
> think of anyone else lately I've had the problem with. Also mutt has
> broken threading in the past and even between different versions of
> itself... so calling it a gold standard may be an overstatement.

it is golden brown, runny and smelly. Some call it 'gold'.


-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:38:52PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Saturday 04 June 2011 11:59:52 kashani wrote:
> > On 6/4/2011 11:43 AM, Indi wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:11:09PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > >> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:20 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi
> > >> did opine
> > >> 
> > >> thusly:
> > >>> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> > >>>> I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort of like
> > >>>> top
> > >>>> posting.  Some people have to top post because the device they are
> > >>>> using won't let them reply any other way.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed
> > >>>> somewhere
> > >>>> to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using.
> > >>> 
> > >>> As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference between
> > >>> usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It actually
> > >>> shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked around a
> > >>> couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the email like
> > >>> "normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)
> > >> 
> > >> FWIW,
> > >> 
> > >> If I set kmail to display just routine ordinary threaded mail there's
> > >> a lot less thread breakage. It's not all gone, but it is considerably
> > >> less.
> > >> 
> > >> Setting kmail to display threads based on "activity" - whatever the
> > >> blazes that is - breaks things wholesale. I haven't managed to narrow
> > >> it down at all so I have no idea what the algorithm is.
> > >> 
> > >> Looks like there's more to this than just usernet<->mail gateway
> > >> brokenness
> > > 
> > > I'd switch if *mutt* was breaking threading for other people, but I'm
> > > pretty sure it isn't. Now kmail and the other pointy-clicky-html-loving
> > > apps, *those* I don't trust...  Tried 'em, found 'em wanting. ;)
> > > 
> > > It would be good to hear from more people running different MUAs,
> > > but IMO mutt is the Gold Standard and is almost certaily doing what it's
> > > supposed to do.
> > 
> > Whatever you're using is breaking threading in Thunderbird and I can't
> > think of anyone else lately I've had the problem with. Also mutt has
> > broken threading in the past and even between different versions of
> > itself... so calling it a gold standard may be an overstatement.
> 
> it is golden brown, runny and smelly. Some call it 'gold'.
> 

I hate the way you beat around the bush. Just tell us how you *really*
feel, dammit!

;)

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Saturday 04 June 2011 15:46:49 Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:38:52PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Saturday 04 June 2011 11:59:52 kashani wrote:
> > > On 6/4/2011 11:43 AM, Indi wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:11:09PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > >> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:20 on Saturday 04 June
> > > >> 2011, Indi
> > > >> did opine
> > > >> 
> > > >> thusly:
> > > >>> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> > > >>>> I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort
> > > >>>> of like
> > > >>>> top
> > > >>>> posting.  Some people have to top post because the device
> > > >>>> they are
> > > >>>> using won't let them reply any other way.
> > > >>>> 
> > > >>>> I just wonder if there is some setting that could be
> > > >>>> changed
> > > >>>> somewhere
> > > >>>> to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you
> > > >>>> were using.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference
> > > >>> between
> > > >>> usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It
> > > >>> actually
> > > >>> shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked
> > > >>> around a
> > > >>> couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the
> > > >>> email like
> > > >>> "normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)
> > > >> 
> > > >> FWIW,
> > > >> 
> > > >> If I set kmail to display just routine ordinary threaded mail
> > > >> there's a lot less thread breakage. It's not all gone, but it
> > > >> is considerably less.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Setting kmail to display threads based on "activity" -
> > > >> whatever the
> > > >> blazes that is - breaks things wholesale. I haven't managed to
> > > >> narrow it down at all so I have no idea what the algorithm
> > > >> is.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Looks like there's more to this than just usernet<->mail
> > > >> gateway
> > > >> brokenness
> > > > 
> > > > I'd switch if *mutt* was breaking threading for other people,
> > > > but I'm
> > > > pretty sure it isn't. Now kmail and the other
> > > > pointy-clicky-html-loving apps, *those* I don't trust...  Tried
> > > > 'em, found 'em wanting. ;)
> > > > 
> > > > It would be good to hear from more people running different
> > > > MUAs,
> > > > but IMO mutt is the Gold Standard and is almost certaily doing
> > > > what it's supposed to do.
> > > 
> > > Whatever you're using is breaking threading in Thunderbird and I
> > > can't
> > > think of anyone else lately I've had the problem with. Also mutt has
> > > broken threading in the past and even between different versions of
> > > itself... so calling it a gold standard may be an overstatement.
> > 
> > it is golden brown, runny and smelly. Some call it 'gold'.
> 
> I hate the way you beat around the bush. Just tell us how you *really*
> feel, dammit!
> 
> ;)

<diplomatic mode> I have a slightly adverse general opinion about the mail 
client called 'mutt'. I am not saying that this is the fault of its devs nor 
do I suggesst that there is anything wrong with its users. </diplomatic mode>

Pine is slightly less gruesome.. Old kmail rocked. It even did well with 
threads where the thread id was mangled - threading by subject was an option. 
Haven't looked into the options with the kmail beta I am using at the moment. 
I am glad that it is more or less stable.
-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 10:19:51PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> 
> <diplomatic mode> I have a slightly adverse general opinion about the mail 
> client called 'mutt'. I am not saying that this is the fault of its devs nor 
> do I suggesst that there is anything wrong with its users. </diplomatic mode>
> 
> Pine is slightly less gruesome.. Old kmail rocked. It even did well with 
> threads where the thread id was mangled - threading by subject was an option. 
> Haven't looked into the options with the kmail beta I am using at the moment. 
> I am glad that it is more or less stable.
>

Pine is nowhere near being an acceptable mutt replacement, it just 
isn't powerful or versatile enough.
It's been a few years, but I did test a *lot* of MUAs.
What the mutt devs say is true: all MUAs suck, but mutt sucks the least.
Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
at times when dealing with IMAP. It happens in mutt as well, but pretty
rarely and mutt can be killed and started fresh in an instant, unlike
many others.

My experiences with evolution, kmail, thunderbird, and opera were dreadful!
Sylpheed (claws-mail, or whatever they call it now) was pretty
acceptable, and I used that for quite awhile before switching to mutt.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:

> Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
> at times when dealing with IMAP.

I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time became
TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have improved since your
testing.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:44:30PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:
> 
> > Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
> > at times when dealing with IMAP.
> 
> I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time became
> TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have improved since your
> testing.
> 

That's good to know, thanks.
I'm unlikely to switch from mutt (due in part to so many macros and
customizations accumulated the last couple of years), but am always 
keeping an eye out for those I support.  

Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on 
thunderbird and see how they do with it...

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 1359 bytes --]

On Saturday 04 Jun 2011 22:59:32 Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:44:30PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> > Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:
> > > Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
> > > at times when dealing with IMAP.
> > 
> > I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time became
> > TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have improved since your
> > testing.
> 
> That's good to know, thanks.
> I'm unlikely to switch from mutt (due in part to so many macros and
> customizations accumulated the last couple of years), but am always
> keeping an eye out for those I support.
> 
> Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on
> thunderbird and see how they do with it...

When KDE4 came out I seriously thought of ditching KDE apps and Kmail is the 
one I use on a daily basis.  I looked at other alternatives for a while and 
ended up coming back to Kmail, despite the need to install KDE4.

Kmail version 1.13.7 is very stable for me and does more than what I need from 
a mail client.  More importantly, it does things the way I expect them to do 
it.  ;-)

I have looked at mutt some time ago, but then I would also need to install 
fetchmail and smtp and what not, instead of a single desktop application.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:42:40PM +0100, Mick wrote:
> 
> I have looked at mutt some time ago, but then I would also need to install 
> fetchmail and smtp and what not, instead of a single desktop application.
> 

Actually you can build mutt with the smtp, imap, and pop flags and
use mutt's built-in support. It's been working fine for ages, though
some "purists" sneer at breaking the "do one thing only and do it well" 
paradigm. I say unless they're running plan9 they've no right to sneer.
;)

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

[gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[walt]

On 06/04/2011 02:59 PM, Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:44:30PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
>> Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:
>>
>>> Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
>>> at times when dealing with IMAP.
>>
>> I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time became
>> TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have improved since your
>> testing.
>>
> 
> That's good to know, thanks.
> I'm unlikely to switch from mutt (due in part to so many macros and
> customizations accumulated the last couple of years), but am always 
> keeping an eye out for those I support.  
> 
> Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on 
> thunderbird and see how they do with it...

I've found evolution to be a perfectly fine email client -- but a disaster
as an nntp client.  Evolution insists on sending outgoing mail and fetching
incoming mail *and* fetching all the headers from every newsgroup I read,
all at the same time.  Fetching the news headers takes for fscking *ever*
(not unlike alpine) so I just stopped using evolution and alpine for news.

Thunderbird is my every-day news and email client and I don't switch because
it "just works" for me.

BTW, evolution claims to be a substitute for the MS Office "Outlook" suite,
so I'm assuming that whatever frustrations I have with evolution probably
originate with Outlook.  (But I can't support this claim with real evidence.)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 04:35:46PM -0700, walt wrote:
> 
> Thunderbird is my every-day news and email client and I don't switch because
> it "just works" for me.
> 

Oh that reminds me, one of the annoyances which seems to be common among 
GUI MUAs is they create a fixed set of IMAP "folders" which one is then 
stuck with whether or not they correspond to the IMAP structure
already established. Does t-bird still do that?

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 05.06.2011 11:29, schrieb Indi:

> Oh that reminds me, one of the annoyances which seems to be common among 
> GUI MUAs is they create a fixed set of IMAP "folders" which one is then 
> stuck with whether or not they correspond to the IMAP structure
> already established. Does t-bird still do that?

T-bird uses a set of preset folders, but all of them can be changed to
whatever needed.



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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Tanstaafl]

On 06/04/2011 02:59 PM, Indi wrote:
> Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on 
> thunderbird and see how they do with it...

I absolutely love Thunderbird, but with one caveat...

I love it because of its stability, how well it does IMAP, but most
importantly, how configurable it is, both through the use of extensions,
and manual edits to userChrome.css and user.js.

I absolutely *loathe* the default U interface configuration. It took me
about a week to figure out how to get 3.1 to where I liked it and the
way I had had 2.x configured for ages...

So, many people who may hate Thunderbird may just hate the default
config (like I did), and may not realize how easily it is customized, so
that they can have it 'their way'.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On 06/05/2011 11:51 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 06/04/2011 02:59 PM, Indi wrote:
>> Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on 
>> thunderbird and see how they do with it...
> I absolutely love Thunderbird, but with one caveat...
>
> I love it because of its stability, how well it does IMAP, but most
> importantly, how configurable it is, both through the use of extensions,
> and manual edits to userChrome.css and user.js.
>
> I absolutely *loathe* the default U interface configuration. It took me
> about a week to figure out how to get 3.1 to where I liked it and the
> way I had had 2.x configured for ages...
>
> So, many people who may hate Thunderbird may just hate the default
> config (like I did), and may not realize how easily it is customized, so
> that they can have it 'their way'.

I see what you mean about the default config, LOL.
Been trying to change the font sizes used for the message list and
folder pane, but no success yet. Makes it a bit hard to see things but
other than that it seems pretty nice once you remove the redundant
folders it creates by default. It's much more responsive than the last
version I tested,  a huge improvement in fact.

Just need to figure out what determines those list fonts -- it's in here
somewhere...
 
-- 
  caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 07:01:47AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2011-06-05 11:44 PM, Indi wrote:
> > I see what you mean about the default config, LOL.
> > Been trying to change the font sizes used for the message list and
> > folder pane, but no success yet. Makes it a bit hard to see things but
> > other than that it seems pretty nice once you remove the redundant
> > folders it creates by default. It's much more responsive than the last
> > version I tested,  a huge improvement in fact.
> > 
> > Just need to figure out what determines those list fonts -- it's in here
> > somewhere...
> 
> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=thunderbird+change+font+size+in+message+pane
> 
> Like I said, there isn't much you cannot change, but sometimes it takes
> a bit of searching... ;)
> 

Anyone can point to a google search, smartass. :) 
Of course, the search turns up nothing that works for tbird3.

Do you *really* imagine I'd post what I did without searching first?

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Tanstaafl]

On 2011-06-06 7:19 AM, Indi wrote:
> Anyone can point to a google search, smartass. :) 

I've been called worse... ;)

> Of course, the search turns up nothing that works for tbird3.

It doesn't state specifically, but the very first hit works fine for
3.1.10 for me...

> Do you *really* imagine I'd post what I did without searching first?

Well, since the first hack/hit works fine, yeah, that's what I thought...

As to your last - yes, I'm on Windows (as I stated before) - but nothing
says this hack only works on Windows...

You do realize that you cannot edit the userChrome.css file while
Thunderbird is running, right?

Close/kill Thunderbird, then add the following VERBATIM to your
userChrome.css file:

* {
font-size: 22px !important;
font-family: Arial !important;
}

Adjust the font size to what you want, then start thunderbird...

I'll be interested to learn if this DOESN'T work cross-platform, because
I though all userChrome.css and user.js hacks were supposed to be
cross-platform. Maybe your Window Manager is over-riding it somehow?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 08:13:31AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
> As to your last - yes, I'm on Windows (as I stated before) - but nothing
> says this hack only works on Windows...
>

It doesn't work in linux.
It was the first thing I tried.

***[Snip all the rest of the advice that doesn't work in linux]***

You know friend, you *really* shouldn't assume linux users will get 
the same results you're getting on windows. It's a little frustrating, 
especially when you tell people *they're* having PEBKAC errors and
being a bit smug and it turns out *you're* reporting your experiences 
with a whole other OS.

It's bad form, and some people will get angry with you over that sort of
thing. Not me though, I should have stuck to the old rule that "headers
help determine credibility". Had I paid attention to that, I'd have
looked into it better before wastig so much time. :)

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[kashani]

On 6/6/2011 5:36 AM, Indi wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 08:13:31AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
>>
>> As to your last - yes, I'm on Windows (as I stated before) - but nothing
>> says this hack only works on Windows...
>>
>
> It doesn't work in linux.
> It was the first thing I tried.
>
> ***[Snip all the rest of the advice that doesn't work in linux]***
>
> You know friend, you *really* shouldn't assume linux users will get
> the same results you're getting on windows. It's a little frustrating,
> especially when you tell people *they're* having PEBKAC errors and
> being a bit smug and it turns out *you're* reporting your experiences
> with a whole other OS.
>
> It's bad form, and some people will get angry with you over that sort of
> thing. Not me though, I should have stuck to the old rule that "headers
> help determine credibility". Had I paid attention to that, I'd have
> looked into it better before wastig so much time. :)
>

	I'd like to point out that the PEBCAK was on your end. Again. And next 
time rather than telling people how much they are or aren't assuming 
about your system try following the instruction exactly rather than 
spouting about differences in Windows, Linux, x86, x86_64, Thunderbird, 
mutt, the electrons on your computer, etc etc.

Sheesh.

kashani

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 09:42:01AM -0700, kashani wrote:
> 
> I'd like to point out that the PEBCAK was on your end. 
>

Sorry, no.
And you just used your one shot at trolling me.
Do it again and it's the bozo bin for you.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Bill Longman]

On 06/06/2011 09:52 AM, Indi wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 09:42:01AM -0700, kashani wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to point out that the PEBCAK was on your end. 
>>
> 
> Sorry, no.
> And you just used your one shot at trolling me.
> Do it again and it's the bozo bin for you.

Well, Indi, you are now right alongside "Singapore Citizen" in my filter
list....

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 10:16:12AM -0700, Bill Longman wrote:
> On 06/06/2011 09:52 AM, Indi wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 09:42:01AM -0700, kashani wrote:
> >>
> >> I'd like to point out that the PEBCAK was on your end. 
> >>
> > 
> > Sorry, no.
> > And you just used your one shot at trolling me.
> > Do it again and it's the bozo bin for you.
> 
> Well, Indi, you are now right alongside "Singapore Citizen" in my filter
> list....
> 

BFD. 

Wear your inability to read like a medal if you like.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 23:59 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:44:30PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> > Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:
> > > Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
> > > at times when dealing with IMAP.
> > 
> > I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time became
> > TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have improved since your
> > testing.
> 
> That's good to know, thanks.
> I'm unlikely to switch from mutt (due in part to so many macros and
> customizations accumulated the last couple of years), but am always
> keeping an eye out for those I support.
> 
> Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on
> thunderbird and see how they do with it...

Evolution just sucks, all the time. The only feature that sets is apart is the 
Exchange support, and it's precisely that which crashes is. We enabled 
POP/IMAP on Exchange and non-Outlook users use that.

Thunderbird - I itried this a while back when KMail-4.5.9999 pissed me off 
extremely. Capable enough except it does something weird with it's internal 
indexing - shows there's mail in folder, click the folder and it decides there 
isn't mail after all. S simple this, but a deal-breaking annoying one.

Mutt - my networks guys use this on a dedicated mail server just for them 
(networks guys really are special) and they have no issues at all. 2 of them 
are hard-core crazy and choose pine instead. The only problem with pine is 
finding who is supported and maintaining it lately (as repine)

Claws is fast, very fast. I didn't like the way it dealt with mail accounts 
and enable/disable them quickly and easily.

KMail was always the best of the lot for me. It read and composed mail, it had 
all the features of a pine/mutt and shows it in a GUI. No weird bling-bling 
(it *could* do HTML mail but you had to jump through a hoop first) and made 
sensible use of the extra screen space and all the information that could be 
shown. But in the last year, I don't know so much anymore. KDEPIM has a 
"corporate sponsor" which I take to mean "works like Outlook". It's two whole 
minor releases behind KDE and they don't have a incremental feature set they 
can release for the interim. And then there's that text-search aspect that 
kills Akonadi.

I see room for a KDEPIM fork from the 4.4 codebase in maintenance mode that 
does not add deep features.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 11:46:49AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 23:59 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:44:30PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> > > Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:
> > > > Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
> > > > at times when dealing with IMAP.
> > > 
> > > I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time became
> > > TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have improved since your
> > > testing.
> > 
> > That's good to know, thanks.
> > I'm unlikely to switch from mutt (due in part to so many macros and
> > customizations accumulated the last couple of years), but am always
> > keeping an eye out for those I support.
> > 
> > Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on
> > thunderbird and see how they do with it...
> 
> Evolution just sucks, all the time. The only feature that sets is apart is the 
> Exchange support, and it's precisely that which crashes is. We enabled 
> POP/IMAP on Exchange and non-Outlook users use that.
> 
> Thunderbird - I itried this a while back when KMail-4.5.9999 pissed me off 
> extremely. Capable enough except it does something weird with it's internal 
> indexing - shows there's mail in folder, click the folder and it decides there 
> isn't mail after all. S simple this, but a deal-breaking annoying one.
> 
> Mutt - my networks guys use this on a dedicated mail server just for them 
> (networks guys really are special) and they have no issues at all. 2 of them 
> are hard-core crazy and choose pine instead. The only problem with pine is 
> finding who is supported and maintaining it lately (as repine)
> 
> Claws is fast, very fast. I didn't like the way it dealt with mail accounts 
> and enable/disable them quickly and easily.
> 
> KMail was always the best of the lot for me. It read and composed mail, it had 
> all the features of a pine/mutt and shows it in a GUI. No weird bling-bling 
> (it *could* do HTML mail but you had to jump through a hoop first) and made 
> sensible use of the extra screen space and all the information that could be 
> shown. But in the last year, I don't know so much anymore. KDEPIM has a 
> "corporate sponsor" which I take to mean "works like Outlook". It's two whole 
> minor releases behind KDE and they don't have a incremental feature set they 
> can release for the interim. And then there's that text-search aspect that 
> kills Akonadi.
> 
> I see room for a KDEPIM fork from the 4.4 codebase in maintenance mode that 
> does not add deep features.
> 

Thanks, Alan. Of course kmail is out of the question, as it requires a 
ginormous application framework be built (and rebuilt weekly, it looks 
like).

I got pretty fed up with wasting time fooling with anything qt, 
to the point it's now officially banished entirely from my systems.
That decision alone has saved me hours of extra work updating (and
subsquent repairing of the inevitable fallout) per week.

For a long time I built vlc with qt4 (it's very convenient when you're
exhausted and just want to play a video), but finally got sick of having
to rebuild it every time the qt guys change anything (which they seem to
do about every two hours). Now I just use nvlc and cvlc instead.

Since I started building vlc without qt I go weeks without having to 
rebuild it. 

It's too bad, really. Potentially, qt4 and kde could totally rock.
I don't suppose the corporate shenanigans with Nokia and Microsoft 
have helped, either... 

Of course,  I am using ~x86. It might be less hectic on stable...

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 01:01:22PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Sunday 05 June 2011 06:43:37 Indi wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 11:46:49AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > Apparently, though unproven, at 23:59 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi did
> > > opine
> > > 
> > > thusly:
> > > > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:44:30PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> > > > > Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:
> > > > > > Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become
> > > > > > unresponsive at times when dealing with IMAP.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time
> > > > > became TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have
> > > > > improved since your testing.
> > > > 
> > > > That's good to know, thanks.
> > > > I'm unlikely to switch from mutt (due in part to so many macros and
> > > > customizations accumulated the last couple of years), but am always
> > > > keeping an eye out for those I support.
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on
> > > > thunderbird and see how they do with it...
> > > 
> > > Evolution just sucks, all the time. The only feature that sets is apart
> > > is the Exchange support, and it's precisely that which crashes is. We
> > > enabled POP/IMAP on Exchange and non-Outlook users use that.
> > > 
> > > Thunderbird - I itried this a while back when KMail-4.5.9999 pissed me
> > > off extremely. Capable enough except it does something weird with it's
> > > internal indexing - shows there's mail in folder, click the folder and
> > > it decides there isn't mail after all. S simple this, but a
> > > deal-breaking annoying one.
> > > 
> > > Mutt - my networks guys use this on a dedicated mail server just for
> > > them
> > > (networks guys really are special) and they have no issues at all. 2 of
> > > them are hard-core crazy and choose pine instead. The only problem with
> > > pine is finding who is supported and maintaining it lately (as repine)
> > > 
> > > Claws is fast, very fast. I didn't like the way it dealt with mail
> > > accounts and enable/disable them quickly and easily.
> > > 
> > > KMail was always the best of the lot for me. It read and composed mail,
> > > it had all the features of a pine/mutt and shows it in a GUI. No weird
> > > bling-bling (it *could* do HTML mail but you had to jump through a hoop
> > > first) and made sensible use of the extra screen space and all the
> > > information that could be shown. But in the last year, I don't know so
> > > much anymore. KDEPIM has a "corporate sponsor" which I take to mean
> > > "works like Outlook". It's two whole minor releases behind KDE and they
> > > don't have a incremental feature set they can release for the interim.
> > > And then there's that text-search aspect that kills Akonadi.
> > > 
> > > I see room for a KDEPIM fork from the 4.4 codebase in maintenance mode
> > > that does not add deep features.
> > 
> > Thanks, Alan. Of course kmail is out of the question, as it requires a
> > ginormous application framework be built (and rebuilt weekly, it looks
> > like).
> > 
> > I got pretty fed up with wasting time fooling with anything qt,
> > to the point it's now officially banished entirely from my systems.
> > That decision alone has saved me hours of extra work updating (and
> > subsquent repairing of the inevitable fallout) per week.
> > 
> > For a long time I built vlc with qt4 (it's very convenient when you're
> > exhausted and just want to play a video), but finally got sick of having
> > to rebuild it every time the qt guys change anything (which they seem to
> > do about every two hours). Now I just use nvlc and cvlc instead.
> > 
> > Since I started building vlc without qt I go weeks without having to
> > rebuild it.
> > 
> > It's too bad, really. Potentially, qt4 and kde could totally rock.
> > I don't suppose the corporate shenanigans with Nokia and Microsoft
> > have helped, either...
> > 
> > Of course,  I am using ~x86. It might be less hectic on stable...
> 
> funny - last qt update did not require any rebuilds.
> 
> I wish I could get rid of gtk. Now THAT is a mess.
> -- 
> #163933
> 

Yes, gtk also sucks but I find it far less work far less often 
than using qt, and I've got a selection of custom themes that 
help mitigate the ugliness.

If I were driven strictly by aesthetic concerns qt and kde4 
might be my choices, as they can be extremely pleasant to look 
at. Heh, reminds me of my ex -- he was very pleasant to look at 
(and a huge amount of constant maintenance work) as well. ;)

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 12:17:08 Indi wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 01:01:22PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Sunday 05 June 2011 06:43:37 Indi wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 11:46:49AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > > Apparently, though unproven, at 23:59 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi
> > > > did opine
> > > > 
> > > > thusly:
> > > > > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:44:30PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> > > > > > Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:
> > > > > > > Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become
> > > > > > > unresponsive at times when dealing with IMAP.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time
> > > > > > became TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have
> > > > > > improved since your testing.
> > > > > 
> > > > > That's good to know, thanks.
> > > > > I'm unlikely to switch from mutt (due in part to so many macros and
> > > > > customizations accumulated the last couple of years), but am always
> > > > > keeping an eye out for those I support.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on
> > > > > thunderbird and see how they do with it...
> > > > 
> > > > Evolution just sucks, all the time. The only feature that sets is
> > > > apart is the Exchange support, and it's precisely that which crashes
> > > > is. We enabled POP/IMAP on Exchange and non-Outlook users use that.
> > > > 
> > > > Thunderbird - I itried this a while back when KMail-4.5.9999 pissed
> > > > me off extremely. Capable enough except it does something weird with
> > > > it's internal indexing - shows there's mail in folder, click the
> > > > folder and it decides there isn't mail after all. S simple this, but
> > > > a
> > > > deal-breaking annoying one.
> > > > 
> > > > Mutt - my networks guys use this on a dedicated mail server just for
> > > > them
> > > > (networks guys really are special) and they have no issues at all. 2
> > > > of them are hard-core crazy and choose pine instead. The only
> > > > problem with pine is finding who is supported and maintaining it
> > > > lately (as repine)
> > > > 
> > > > Claws is fast, very fast. I didn't like the way it dealt with mail
> > > > accounts and enable/disable them quickly and easily.
> > > > 
> > > > KMail was always the best of the lot for me. It read and composed
> > > > mail, it had all the features of a pine/mutt and shows it in a GUI.
> > > > No weird bling-bling (it *could* do HTML mail but you had to jump
> > > > through a hoop first) and made sensible use of the extra screen
> > > > space and all the information that could be shown. But in the last
> > > > year, I don't know so much anymore. KDEPIM has a "corporate sponsor"
> > > > which I take to mean "works like Outlook". It's two whole minor
> > > > releases behind KDE and they don't have a incremental feature set
> > > > they can release for the interim. And then there's that text-search
> > > > aspect that kills Akonadi.
> > > > 
> > > > I see room for a KDEPIM fork from the 4.4 codebase in maintenance
> > > > mode that does not add deep features.
> > > 
> > > Thanks, Alan. Of course kmail is out of the question, as it requires a
> > > ginormous application framework be built (and rebuilt weekly, it looks
> > > like).
> > > 
> > > I got pretty fed up with wasting time fooling with anything qt,
> > > to the point it's now officially banished entirely from my systems.
> > > That decision alone has saved me hours of extra work updating (and
> > > subsquent repairing of the inevitable fallout) per week.
> > > 
> > > For a long time I built vlc with qt4 (it's very convenient when you're
> > > exhausted and just want to play a video), but finally got sick of
> > > having to rebuild it every time the qt guys change anything (which
> > > they seem to do about every two hours). Now I just use nvlc and cvlc
> > > instead.
> > > 
> > > Since I started building vlc without qt I go weeks without having to
> > > rebuild it.
> > > 
> > > It's too bad, really. Potentially, qt4 and kde could totally rock.
> > > I don't suppose the corporate shenanigans with Nokia and Microsoft
> > > have helped, either...
> > > 
> > > Of course,  I am using ~x86. It might be less hectic on stable...
> > 
> > funny - last qt update did not require any rebuilds.
> > 
> > I wish I could get rid of gtk. Now THAT is a mess.
> 
> Yes, gtk also sucks but I find it far less work far less often
> than using qt, and I've got a selection of custom themes that
> help mitigate the ugliness.
> 
> If I were driven strictly by aesthetic concerns qt and kde4
> might be my choices, as they can be extremely pleasant to look
> at. Heh, reminds me of my ex -- he was very pleasant to look at
> (and a huge amount of constant maintenance work) as well. ;)

I think that your problem is that you are running ~arch and this comes with 
frequent updates.  These days I'm running stable and my qt, kde or OOo updates 
are quite infrequent (like twice a year or may be less).

I have to admit though that now the mutt can work as a multi-function client I 
am tempted to reinstall it and give it a another go ...
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 12:41:42PM +0100, Mick wrote:
> On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 12:17:08 Indi wrote:
> > 
> > If I were driven strictly by aesthetic concerns qt and kde4
> > might be my choices, as they can be extremely pleasant to look
> > at. Heh, reminds me of my ex -- he was very pleasant to look at
> > (and a huge amount of constant maintenance work) as well. ;)
> 
> I think that your problem is that you are running ~arch and this comes with 
> frequent updates.  These days I'm running stable and my qt, kde or OOo updates 
> are quite infrequent (like twice a year or may be less).
>

Twice a year or less, *really*?
Had no idea the difference between stable and testing was that huge...
Of course the reason I'm running testing is that typically, when I
install there are inevitably two or three things I can't live without
that don't work in stable so I start with the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS fiddling, 
and eventually that snowballs into a level of complexity which
frustrates me and then I just end up putting "~x86" in make.conf.

Anyway, I do use some gtk stuff as well as wmaker and fluxbox and 
those work (mostly) fine without having to be constantly fooled with.
Sometimes gtk or vte breaks and I have to resort to urxvt instead of 
my beloved terminator while fixing things, but that's acceptably
infrequent. 

> I have to admit though that now the mutt can work as a multi-function client I 
> am tempted to reinstall it and give it a another go ...
>  

Can't beat mutt, at least if you're keyboard-oriented.
Nothing else comes close.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 2036 bytes --]

On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 13:28:40 Indi wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 12:41:42PM +0100, Mick wrote:
> > On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 12:17:08 Indi wrote:
> > > If I were driven strictly by aesthetic concerns qt and kde4
> > > might be my choices, as they can be extremely pleasant to look
> > > at. Heh, reminds me of my ex -- he was very pleasant to look at
> > > (and a huge amount of constant maintenance work) as well. ;)
> > 
> > I think that your problem is that you are running ~arch and this comes
> > with frequent updates.  These days I'm running stable and my qt, kde or
> > OOo updates are quite infrequent (like twice a year or may be less).
> 
> Twice a year or less, *really*?

OK, I lied:

# genlop kmail
 * kde-base/kmail

     Sat Dec 18 16:46:54 2010 >>> kde-base/kmail-4.4.7
     Fri Jan 14 11:41:39 2011 >>> kde-base/kmail-4.4.8
     Sat Jan 29 10:51:11 2011 >>> kde-base/kmail-4.4.9
     Wed May 11 16:02:50 2011 >>> kde-base/kmail-4.4.11.1

although you could argue from Jan 11 to May 11 is close to six months.  The 
more mature kde4 becomes the fewer updates we should see.

Ah!  Hold on:

# genlop konqueror
 * kde-base/konqueror

     Sat Dec 18 16:22:22 2010 >>> kde-base/konqueror-4.4.5
     Wed May 11 17:02:05 2011 >>> kde-base/konqueror-4.6.2

That's more like it!  :)

> Had no idea the difference between stable and testing was that huge...
> Of course the reason I'm running testing is that typically, when I
> install there are inevitably two or three things I can't live without
> that don't work in stable so I start with the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS fiddling,
> and eventually that snowballs into a level of complexity which
> frustrates me and then I just end up putting "~x86" in make.conf.

Most people do the same (unmasking stuff) typically to sort out driver 
problems, but not necessarily go the full ~arch way.

I unmask particular packages when I need to and then leave them well alone 
until portage catches up with those versions.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 13:17 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> If I were driven strictly by aesthetic concerns qt and kde4 
> might be my choices, as they can be extremely pleasant to look 
> at. Heh, reminds me of my ex -- he was very pleasant to look at 
> (and a huge amount of constant maintenance work) as well. ;)

You owe me a cup of coffee. 

The one I had is now dripping down the screen onto the keyboard.......

Actually, you owe me two, it wasn't just any old cup of coffee, it was proudly 
made with immense difficulty by a cute 9 year old girl (my daughter)

:-)


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 02:23:50PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 13:17 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > If I were driven strictly by aesthetic concerns qt and kde4 
> > might be my choices, as they can be extremely pleasant to look 
> > at. Heh, reminds me of my ex -- he was very pleasant to look at 
> > (and a huge amount of constant maintenance work) as well. ;)
> 
> You owe me a cup of coffee. 
> 
> The one I had is now dripping down the screen onto the keyboard.......
> 
> Actually, you owe me two, it wasn't just any old cup of coffee, it was proudly 
> made with immense difficulty by a cute 9 year old girl (my daughter)
> 
> :-)
> 

Eeek, sorry!
:)

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 12:43 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> > I see room for a KDEPIM fork from the 4.4 codebase in maintenance mode
> > that  does not add deep features.
> >
> > 
> 
> Thanks, Alan. Of course kmail is out of the question, as it requires a 
> ginormous application framework be built (and rebuilt weekly, it looks 
> like).
> 
> I got pretty fed up with wasting time fooling with anything qt, 
> to the point it's now officially banished entirely from my systems.
> That decision alone has saved me hours of extra work updating (and
> subsquent repairing of the inevitable fallout) per week.
> 
> For a long time I built vlc with qt4 (it's very convenient when you're
> exhausted and just want to play a video), but finally got sick of having
> to rebuild it every time the qt guys change anything (which they seem to
> do about every two hours). Now I just use nvlc and cvlc instead.
> 
> Since I started building vlc without qt I go weeks without having to 
> rebuild it. 
> 
> It's too bad, really. Potentially, qt4 and kde could totally rock.
> I don't suppose the corporate shenanigans with Nokia and Microsoft 
> have helped, either... 
> 
> Of course,  I am using ~x86. It might be less hectic on stable...


A victim of "release early, release often"? :-)

It's the price we pay on Gentoo with rolling upgrades - ebuilds for older 
versions get swept clean so unless you are prepared to maintain code yourself 
you need to rebuild often. x86 is better, but still not free of it.

Binary distros can shield their user from all that (while exposing them to a 
different set of equally annoying problems...)

I don't see a real problem with Qt/Nokia/MS though. I predict a lot of 
platitudes from that soul-less monstrosity but no real progress. Meanwhile, 
KDE can fork Qt anytime they feel like it (if they haven't already). 
Maintenance won't be hard - Qt is mature with a defined roadmap so we can skip 
the "argue about the design for 12 months first" step as being already done.

I would have like to see Qt running on lots of embedded devides though..


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 01:34:37PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
> A victim of "release early, release often"? :-)
>

Yes, definitely. 
One of these days I'll switch back to stable, just haven't 
been willing to bite that bullet quite yet. At least it's 
helped me temper my obsessive tendencies a bit -- I only 
update on Saturday now. :)

> It's the price we pay on Gentoo with rolling upgrades - ebuilds for older 
> versions get swept clean so unless you are prepared to maintain code yourself 
> you need to rebuild often. x86 is better, but still not free of it.
> 
> Binary distros can shield their user from all that (while exposing them to a 
> different set of equally annoying problems...)
> 

I find binary distros really tough to love. Probably a lot of gentoo users
do... 

> I don't see a real problem with Qt/Nokia/MS though. I predict a lot of 
> platitudes from that soul-less monstrosity but no real progress. Meanwhile, 
> KDE can fork Qt anytime they feel like it (if they haven't already). 
> Maintenance won't be hard - Qt is mature with a defined roadmap so we can skip 
> the "argue about the design for 12 months first" step as being already done.
>

I hope they do fork it, and that they succeed. Probably I've come across
as harsh and judgemental about kde4/qt, but in fact if they ever can get
to the point of being as reliable and stable as kde3 was I'd be very
happy to put users on it. Heck, I'd be deliriously happy to have a
reliable option besides xfce for them.     

> I would have like to see Qt running on lots of embedded devides though..

It certainly has a *lot* of potential for embedded.
E17 also looks quite interesting, if it ever gets finished.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 13:57 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 01:34:37PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > 
> >
> > A victim of "release early, release often"? :-)
> 
> Yes, definitely. 
> One of these days I'll switch back to stable, just haven't 
> been willing to bite that bullet quite yet. At least it's 
> helped me temper my obsessive tendencies a bit -- I only 
> update on Saturday now. :)

Have you ever made that switch before?

It's not worth trying, far easier to re-install and retain your data. Someone 
here tried it a few months back and did succeed, but the cost!

Find first blocker, follow it down the rabbit hole, resolve all nodes on the 
gigantic tree you just built, emerge. Rinse and repeat with next visible 
blocker. Do this many times.

At least glibc issue won't be as big a factor as it was for that fellow. IIRC 
he had to go from 2.10 to 2.7, today it's only 2.13 back to 2.12

-- 


alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 02:31:21PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 13:57 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 01:34:37PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > 
> > >
> > > A victim of "release early, release often"? :-)
> > 
> > Yes, definitely. 
> > One of these days I'll switch back to stable, just haven't 
> > been willing to bite that bullet quite yet. At least it's 
> > helped me temper my obsessive tendencies a bit -- I only 
> > update on Saturday now. :)
> 
> Have you ever made that switch before?
> 
> It's not worth trying, far easier to re-install and retain your data. Someone 
> here tried it a few months back and did succeed, but the cost!
> 
> Find first blocker, follow it down the rabbit hole, resolve all nodes on the 
> gigantic tree you just built, emerge. Rinse and repeat with next visible 
> blocker. Do this many times.
> 
> At least glibc issue won't be as big a factor as it was for that fellow. IIRC 
> he had to go from 2.10 to 2.7, today it's only 2.13 back to 2.12
> 

Yes, probably I'm unlikely to do it...
Never did actually switch from testing to stable, it's always the other
way around. Every now and then I'll delete the "~" and type "emerge
-vauND world", it always looks like a fracking nightmare...

In fact, testing branch is remarkable good and more stable than most
distro's "stable" branch. The gentoo devs are truly magnificent at their
job.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 14:44 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> Yes, probably I'm unlikely to do it...
> Never did actually switch from testing to stable, it's always the other
> way around. Every now and then I'll delete the "~" and type "emerge
> -vauND world", it always looks like a fracking nightmare...
> 
> In fact, testing branch is remarkable good and more stable than most
> distro's "stable" branch. The gentoo devs are truly magnificent at their
> job.

IIRC the approved way to do it is set arch to stable then just leave it alone 
for 6 months letting packages catch up. Keep an eye out for security bugs but 
otherwise do nothing. After a while emerge world will show a list that looks 
like it will complete without too much difficulty. 

Of course this just glosses over (aka completely ignores) deal-breakers like 
opecrc not moved to stable yet (no longer the case fortunately)


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 03:11:04PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 14:44 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > Yes, probably I'm unlikely to do it...
> > Never did actually switch from testing to stable, it's always the other
> > way around. Every now and then I'll delete the "~" and type "emerge
> > -vauND world", it always looks like a fracking nightmare...
> > 
> > In fact, testing branch is remarkable good and more stable than most
> > distro's "stable" branch. The gentoo devs are truly magnificent at their
> > job.
> 
> IIRC the approved way to do it is set arch to stable then just leave it alone 
> for 6 months letting packages catch up. Keep an eye out for security bugs but 
> otherwise do nothing. After a while emerge world will show a list that looks 
> like it will complete without too much difficulty. 
>

That makes sense.

> Of course this just glosses over (aka completely ignores) deal-breakers like 
> opecrc not moved to stable yet (no longer the case fortunately)
> 

Well, mostly I'm happy with testing. But having learned quite a bit
since installing, it's an interesting question whether I'd now be 
able to use stable without having to mix a bunch of testing stuff 
to get everything working to my spec.

But it's an awful lot of work to go through if I'm only going to 
end up back in my current position again...

When I upgrade the laptop and have to do a fresh install we'll 
find out, maybe this fall. I do hate changing machines, but 
using a single core Pentium M is starting to become a bit of a 
disadvantage in a few ways... 

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 14:50:00 Indi wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 03:11:04PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 14:44 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did
> > opine
> > 
> > thusly:
> > > Yes, probably I'm unlikely to do it...
> > > Never did actually switch from testing to stable, it's always the other
> > > way around. Every now and then I'll delete the "~" and type "emerge
> > > -vauND world", it always looks like a fracking nightmare...
> > > 
> > > In fact, testing branch is remarkable good and more stable than most
> > > distro's "stable" branch. The gentoo devs are truly magnificent at
> > > their job.
> > 
> > IIRC the approved way to do it is set arch to stable then just leave it
> > alone for 6 months letting packages catch up. Keep an eye out for
> > security bugs but otherwise do nothing. After a while emerge world will
> > show a list that looks like it will complete without too much
> > difficulty.
> 
> That makes sense.

Last time I did it I waited for about 2 months.  As Alan said it was a pig to 
get through all the blockers and what not, but I eventually got there in the 
end.

The big disappointment was that once in stable, I would find every few weeks 
that (some) bugs I had reported under ~arch were now being introduced into the 
stable branch!  Arrrgh!

However, big breakages which would occur occasionally in testing were history 
and have been able to run stable without regretting it ever since.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 5 Jun 2011 15:11:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> IIRC the approved way to do it is set arch to stable then just leave it
> alone for 6 months letting packages catch up. Keep an eye out for
> security bugs but otherwise do nothing. After a while emerge world will
> show a list that looks like it will complete without too much
> difficulty. 

Alternatively, run something like

emerge -ep world |  awk '/^\[ebuild/ {print "~"$4}' >/etc/portage/package.accept_keywords/stabilise

Then let the system work itself back to stable as stable catches up with
your current packages.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Mosquito - designed to make houseflies look better.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Tanstaafl]

On 2011-06-04 5:10 PM, Indi wrote:
> Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
> at times when dealing with IMAP. It happens in mutt as well, but pretty
> rarely and mutt can be killed and started fresh in an instant, unlike
> many others.
> 
> My experiences with evolution, kmail, thunderbird, and opera were dreadful!

Been using Thunderbird with 15+ IMAP accounts (different servers, one
local, others remote) for many moons, and never had anything like what
you describe... but that is on Windows (at work, that's what we use), so
maybe it is different on linux...

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 16:43:34 Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2011-06-04 5:10 PM, Indi wrote:
> > Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
> > at times when dealing with IMAP. It happens in mutt as well, but pretty
> > rarely and mutt can be killed and started fresh in an instant, unlike
> > many others.
> > 
> > My experiences with evolution, kmail, thunderbird, and opera were
> > dreadful!
> 
> Been using Thunderbird with 15+ IMAP accounts (different servers, one
> local, others remote) for many moons, and never had anything like what
> you describe... but that is on Windows (at work, that's what we use), so
> maybe it is different on linux...

Yep!  It's more stable.  O_O
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 04.06.2011 16:54, schrieb Dale:

> I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed somewhere
> to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using.  I
> just know this is going to happen again.

I don't think that there is something that can be done, because the
server changes the headers of the mails.

That is a example of Indi's headers when he was using usenet

References: <gZHrQ-5lZ-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <gZHLc-5Nq-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <gZJ0B-84I-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <gZVl7-3yX-7@gated-at.bofh.it>

That is what his headers look now

References: <gZiWt-5Uk-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <61A321C6-5D7C-49CE-B87B-3E4180958D22@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>
 <4DE9A607.6070508@gmail.com>
 <201106040935.43431.michaelkintzios@gmail.com>
 <20110604123702.45f10441@marcec.huntemann.uni-oldenburg.de>
 <4DEA1F3D.3070908@darkmetatron.de>
 <4DEA2D94.4070007@gmail.com>
 <20110604131539.GA11090@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
 <4DEA3FC1.3090303@gmail.com>

The References-header is what most readers use to sort mails into threads.

Greetings

Sebastian


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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 05:27:32PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> 
> I don't think that there is something that can be done, because the
> server changes the headers of the mails.
> 
> That is a example of Indi's headers when he was using usenet
> 
> References: <gZHrQ-5lZ-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <gZHLc-5Nq-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <gZJ0B-84I-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <gZVl7-3yX-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> That is what his headers look now
> 
> References: <gZiWt-5Uk-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <61A321C6-5D7C-49CE-B87B-3E4180958D22@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>
>  <4DE9A607.6070508@gmail.com>
>  <201106040935.43431.michaelkintzios@gmail.com>
>  <20110604123702.45f10441@marcec.huntemann.uni-oldenburg.de>
>  <4DEA1F3D.3070908@darkmetatron.de>
>  <4DEA2D94.4070007@gmail.com>
>  <20110604131539.GA11090@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
>  <4DEA3FC1.3090303@gmail.com>
> 
> The References-header is what most readers use to sort mails into threads.
> 

Well I could be wrong but do believe the MUA wll write the Xref or
References headers according to what the server has on the original
message. If the original header info exists anywhere in the message sent
by the mail2news gateway it should be possible to write a
macro to make mutt retrieve that information and rewrite the headers to 
the proper default.

I'm just a bit tired of fiddling with it right now, but maybe I'll look
into it later...

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:38:38AM -0400, Indi wrote:
> 
> Well I could be wrong but do believe the MUA wll write the Xref or
> References headers according to what the server has on the original
> message. If the original header info exists anywhere in the message sent
> by the mail2news gateway it should be possible to write a
> macro to make mutt retrieve that information and rewrite the headers to 
> the proper default.
> 
> I'm just a bit tired of fiddling with it right now, but maybe I'll look
> into it later...
> 

Actually, now that I pay attention the workaround would be easy.
The mail2news gateway rewrites the References header but it preserves
the original in a X-Original-Message-ID header. So using the info 
from X-Original-Message-ID in the References field should make it work.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 05:50:03PM +0200, Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 05:27:32PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> > 
> > I don't think that there is something that can be done, because the
> > server changes the headers of the mails.
> > 
> > That is a example of Indi's headers when he was using usenet
> > 
> > References: <gZHrQ-5lZ-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
> >  <gZHLc-5Nq-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
> >  <gZJ0B-84I-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
> >  <gZVl7-3yX-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
> > 
> > That is what his headers look now
> > 
> > References: <gZiWt-5Uk-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
> >  <61A321C6-5D7C-49CE-B87B-3E4180958D22@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>
> >  <4DE9A607.6070508@gmail.com>
> >  <201106040935.43431.michaelkintzios@gmail.com>
> >  <20110604123702.45f10441@marcec.huntemann.uni-oldenburg.de>
> >  <4DEA1F3D.3070908@darkmetatron.de>
> >  <4DEA2D94.4070007@gmail.com>
> >  <20110604131539.GA11090@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
> >  <4DEA3FC1.3090303@gmail.com>
> > 
> > The References-header is what most readers use to sort mails into threads.
> > 
> 
> Well I could be wrong but do believe the MUA wll write the Xref or
> References headers according to what the server has on the original
> message. If the original header info exists anywhere in the message sent
> by the mail2news gateway it should be possible to write a
> macro to make mutt retrieve that information and rewrite the headers to 
> the proper default.
> 
> I'm just a bit tired of fiddling with it right now, but maybe I'll look
> into it later...
> 

This is just a test to see if threading works with the mail2news gateway 
when the X-Original-Message-ID header data is used to replace the In-Reply-To
header's data (as it comes up using the mail2news gateway, of course).

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 05:27:32PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> 
> That is a example of Indi's headers when he was using usenet
> 
> References: <gZHrQ-5lZ-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <gZHLc-5Nq-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <gZJ0B-84I-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <gZVl7-3yX-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 

Can't believe I never noticed that Bastard Operator From Hell 
reference in those headers, lol...

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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On Saturday 04 Jun 2011 16:47:50 Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 05:27:32PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> > That is a example of Indi's headers when he was using usenet
> > 
> > References: <gZHrQ-5lZ-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
> > 
> >  <gZHLc-5Nq-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
> >  <gZJ0B-84I-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
> >  <gZVl7-3yX-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> Can't believe I never noticed that Bastard Operator From Hell
> reference in those headers, lol...

Well, I have to say that I still don't know if I'm looking at the same thing 
like you guys.  See the attached screenshot.  Indi's messages do not break the 
thread here and they look the same before and after the change she made.

As Alan says it may well be Kmail being clever with threading, but my setting 
is already set to "Current Activity, Threaded" ...

However, looking at gmane I can see Indi's messages after she changed her 
client were posted outside the thread.  So I guess Kmail is being too clever 
for its boots and corrects the broken thread irrespective of the headers.  o_O

Knode (news reader) shows the threads broken and in a different order.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 03:33 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Dale did opine 
thusly:

> Indi wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 03:00:01AM +0200, Stroller wrote:
> >> On 3 June 2011, at 08:44, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> So it's like that Java-based gmail client for smartphones? The one that
> >>> can only top posts and gives the user no way to do it otherwise.
> >> 
> >> I thought *every* mail client for smart phones did that, these days, and
> >> that we on this list had gone from being a bunch of intolerant geek
> >> assholes (genuinely not looking at anyone specific here) who could not
> >> accept top-posting under any circumstances to permitting it from those
> >> devices.
> > 
> > Where's the fun in that?
> 
> What I would like to know is why some threads get broken up?  My mail
> client here follows these conversations as threads.  For some reason,
> recently the threads are getting broken as if someone started a fresh one.
> 
> I'm sure this is not intentional and may not be avoidable but it makes
> it difficult to follow the conversation.
> 
> Is the same happening for others or is it just picking on me?

No it's not just you. I'm seeing thread fragmentation too.

I have threading set by headers and by subject line and it still happens. So 
someone is using a mail client that changes subject lines. 


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[David W Noon]

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On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:10:02 +0200, Dale wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

[snip]
>Well, something works now.  This is threaded as it should be.  So, 
>whatever you are doing, keep doing it that away.  lol
>
>I don't want you to think I was upset or anything.  I just went back
>and noticed you was one of the ones that it was breaking the threads
>on.

Not a problem.  In fact, it is not I (or Indi) who is causing the
breakage.

A little further investigation has shown that the Message-ID: line of
all message posted through the Gentoo list server is rewritten,
regardless of its initial value.  This is why correctly posted messages
have the Bastard Operator From Hell designation: the domain name of
Gentoo's list server is bofh.it.  This also means that those who read
this list's messages via email will always see a valid Message-ID: line.

Now, one other possible cause of message id mismatch is people posting
directly to Usenet as well as through the list server.  All NNTP
servers should have the newsgroup that is a reflection of this mailing
list marked as "no posting allowed"; certainly
news.eternal-september.org is configured that way.  However, if a
misposted message gets through from another Usenet-registered NNTP
server, I will see it with the alternate Message-ID: line, not the one
generated by the Gentoo list server.  It is messages such as this that
cause the breakage in threads when somebody (anybody) reading through
an NNTP server posts a follow-up to such a message.

So, when you see a breakage in a message thread, it is the message that
is the tail-end of the original thread that is causing the breakage,
not the message that apparently starts the new thread.

I hope all is clear now.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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[gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

David W Noon wrote:

> On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:10:02 +0200, Dale wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
> Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:
> 
> [snip]
>>Well, something works now.  This is threaded as it should be.  So,
>>whatever you are doing, keep doing it that away.  lol
>>
>>I don't want you to think I was upset or anything.  I just went back
>>and noticed you was one of the ones that it was breaking the threads
>>on.
> 
> Not a problem.  In fact, it is not I (or Indi) who is causing the
> breakage.
> 
> A little further investigation has shown that the Message-ID: line of
> all message posted through the Gentoo list server is rewritten,
> regardless of its initial value.  This is why correctly posted messages
> have the Bastard Operator From Hell designation: the domain name of
> Gentoo's list server is bofh.it.  This also means that those who read
> this list's messages via email will always see a valid Message-ID: line.
> 
> Now, one other possible cause of message id mismatch is people posting
> directly to Usenet as well as through the list server.  All NNTP
> servers should have the newsgroup that is a reflection of this mailing
> list marked as "no posting allowed"; certainly
> news.eternal-september.org is configured that way.  However, if a
> misposted message gets through from another Usenet-registered NNTP
> server, I will see it with the alternate Message-ID: line, not the one
> generated by the Gentoo list server.  It is messages such as this that
> cause the breakage in threads when somebody (anybody) reading through
> an NNTP server posts a follow-up to such a message.
> 
> So, when you see a breakage in a message thread, it is the message that
> is the tail-end of the original thread that is causing the breakage,
> not the message that apparently starts the new thread.
> 
> I hope all is clear now.

... as mud!

This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in 
Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@

PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server, to see 
what difference this may make.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> ... as mud!
>
> This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in
> Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
>
> PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server, to see
> what difference this may make.
>    

Interesting.  Here the thread goes like this:  Starts with Indi, then 
David W Moon and both of us replying to David. Sort of like this in case 
that doesn't make sense:

Indi
     David reply to Indi
         Mick reply to David
         Dale reply to David

So what messed up this time?  Again, I'm using Seamonkey and I use the 
defaults on threads, not sure there is anything else either.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Saturday 04 June 2011 23:53:50 Mick wrote:

> 
> ... as mud!
> 
> This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in
> Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
> 
> PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server, to see
> what difference this may make.

you just started a new thread.


-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 01:58:12AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Saturday 04 June 2011 23:53:50 Mick wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ... as mud!
> > 
> > This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in
> > Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
> > 
> > PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server, to see
> > what difference this may make.
> you just started a new thread.
>

Sorry, I missed that before. I thought you couldn't post from usenet to
this group -- news.idividual.net won't let you, I know that.
If you *could* get away somehow with posting to this list via usenet 
that would defintely break the thread, unless you copy the old MID 
from the X-Original_Message-ID (or whatever it's called) and use that 
for the In-Reply-To header.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 01:58 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Volker Armin 
Hemmann did opine thusly:

> On Saturday 04 June 2011 23:53:50 Mick wrote:
> > ... as mud!
> > 
> > This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in
> > Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
> > 
> > PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server, to
> > see what difference this may make.
> 
> you just started a new thread.

which shows up in the correct place in the old thread with KMail's standard 
display. If his mail broke headers, the KMail was able to deal with it 
regardless

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[David W Noon]

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On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 01:00:01 +0200, Mick wrote about [gentoo-user] Re:
Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

>David W Noon wrote:
[snip]
>> I hope all is clear now.
>
>... as mud!
>
>This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in 
>Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
>
>PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server,
>to see what difference this may make.

Well, here are some interesting header lines from my message to which
you are replying:

Message-ID: <h07vY-7fk-13@gated-at.bofh.it>

References: <gZYsG-h5-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-19@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-27@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZYsG-h5-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-29@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-31@gated-at.bofh.it>

X-Original-Message-ID: <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>

X-Original-References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it>

The X-Original-Message-ID: line is a rewrite of the original Message-ID:
line Claws-Mail assigned when I wrote the message.  The Message-ID:
line is the replacement generated by the bofh.it list server.  These
both look quite kosher.

Now, when we look at the References: and X-Original-References: lines,
we see that the list server has rewritten the message id's of all the
messages referred to earlier in the thread.  I find this a little
strange, as it seems that the message id's sent to Usenet differ from
the ones sent via email.

If we now look at the innards of your message, the one to which I am
currently replying, we see this:

References: <gZYsG-h5-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-19@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-27@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZYsG-h5-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-29@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-31@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-13@gated-at.bofh.it>

X-Original-References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>

The last message id in your X-Original-References: line has used my
original message id, not the one from the Message-ID: line generated by
the Gentoo list server.  This should not cause problems, as the better
mail and news readers should only use In-Reply-To: and References:
header lines for the initial threading.

I should point out that I always post by SMTP to
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org, and never through an NNTP server (not
even my own).  This means that you should not see my original
Message-ID: line, except after it has been rewritten and replaced by
the list server.

So, why is KNode using my original message id for its References: line?

Could you please look at the Message-ID: and X-Original-Message-ID:
lines in my previous message and compare them to those I posted above?
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 16:48:19 David W Noon wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 01:00:01 +0200, Mick wrote about [gentoo-user] Re:
> 
> Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:
> >David W Noon wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> >> I hope all is clear now.
> >
> >... as mud!
> >
> >This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in
> >Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
> >
> >PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server,
> >to see what difference this may make.
> 
> Well, here are some interesting header lines from my message to which
> you are replying:
> 
> Message-ID: <h07vY-7fk-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> References: <gZYsG-h5-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-19@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-27@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZYsG-h5-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-29@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-31@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> X-Original-Message-ID: <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>
> 
> X-Original-References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> The X-Original-Message-ID: line is a rewrite of the original Message-ID:
> line Claws-Mail assigned when I wrote the message.  The Message-ID:
> line is the replacement generated by the bofh.it list server.  These
> both look quite kosher.

I am getting a headache!  O_O

This is what Knode is showing as header references in your message that I 
thereafter responded using Knode and news.gmane.org:

Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail
From: David W Noon <dwnoon@ntlworld.com>
Newsgroups: gmane.linux.gentoo.user
Subject: Re: Threads changing  Was: OT: website design
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 23:22:00 +0100
Organization: Luton Operatic Society
Lines: 64
Approved: news@gmane.org
Message-ID: <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>  [1]
References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
Reply-To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1;

[1] As you can see the Message ID: <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local> 
shown on Usenet is different to the Message-ID: <h07vY-7fk-13@gated-
at.bofh.it> which you mention above, but the same with your X-Original-
Message-ID: <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>.

The Usenet headers do not show any X-Original-References: in your message, at 
least not in my Knode.

The email headers also do not show any X-Original-References: at least in my 
Kmail.  :(


> Now, when we look at the References: and X-Original-References: lines,
> we see that the list server has rewritten the message id's of all the
> messages referred to earlier in the thread.  I find this a little
> strange, as it seems that the message id's sent to Usenet differ from
> the ones sent via email.

I'm not entirely sure that this rewriting is a list server action and wonder 
if it has something to do with your fetchmail setup ...


> If we now look at the innards of your message, the one to which I am
> currently replying, we see this:
> 
> References: <gZYsG-h5-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-19@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-27@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZYsG-h5-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-29@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-31@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> X-Original-References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>
> 
> The last message id in your X-Original-References: line has used my
> original message id, not the one from the Message-ID: line generated by
> the Gentoo list server.  This should not cause problems, as the better
> mail and news readers should only use In-Reply-To: and References:
> header lines for the initial threading.
> 
> I should point out that I always post by SMTP to
> gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org, and never through an NNTP server (not
> even my own).  This means that you should not see my original
> Message-ID: line, except after it has been rewritten and replaced by
> the list server.

My Knode reply was via news.gmane.org, but all my other messages (inc. this) 
is to gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org.

> So, why is KNode using my original message id for its References: line?
> 
> Could you please look at the Message-ID: and X-Original-Message-ID:
> lines in my previous message and compare them to those I posted above?

I've done that as I'm showing above.  I've also compared the email and news 
message headers of my previous response through Knode:

Email headers:
Message-ID: <ised0l$m87$1@dough.gmane.org>
References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>

and News headers:

Message-ID: <ised0l$m87$1@dough.gmane.org>
References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>

Hope this helps somehow ...
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:20:01PM +0200, Mick wrote:
> 
> The Usenet headers do not show any X-Original-References: in your message, at 
> least not in my Knode.
>

They do, but apparently knode isn't showing you all headers.

> The email headers also do not show any X-Original-References: at least in my 
> Kmail.  :(
> 

No, in mail that header doesn't exist. The mail2news gateway recreates  
the Message-ID header especially for usenet and puts the original MID in 
X-Original-Message-ID, which is a custom header.
I'm fairly certain that merely taking the X-Original-Message-ID info
of the message one wishes to reply to and puting it in the In-Reply-To 
field of the reply is the trick to reading from usenet without breaking 
threads posting. The References won't matter.

This post was done that way, so let me know.
:)

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 19:35:52 Indi wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:20:01PM +0200, Mick wrote:
> > The Usenet headers do not show any X-Original-References: in your
> > message, at least not in my Knode.
> 
> They do, but apparently knode isn't showing you all headers.

Well, under View source it doesn't.  Nor is it showing it in the sent_3.mbox 
flat file where news messages are stored.

Coming to think of it I just checked and google mail does not show any when 
you view the raw message (Show Original).


> > The email headers also do not show any X-Original-References: at least in
> > my Kmail.  :(
> 
> No, in mail that header doesn't exist. The mail2news gateway recreates
> the Message-ID header especially for usenet and puts the original MID in
> X-Original-Message-ID, which is a custom header.
> I'm fairly certain that merely taking the X-Original-Message-ID info
> of the message one wishes to reply to and puting it in the In-Reply-To
> field of the reply is the trick to reading from usenet without breaking
> threads posting. The References won't matter.
> 
> This post was done that way, so let me know.
> 
> :)

This post only shows:

Message-ID: <20110605183552.GA23307@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:17:53PM +0100, Mick wrote:
> On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 19:35:52 Indi wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:20:01PM +0200, Mick wrote:
> > > The Usenet headers do not show any X-Original-References: in your
> > > message, at least not in my Knode.
> > 
> > They do, but apparently knode isn't showing you all headers.
> 
> Well, under View source it doesn't.  Nor is it showing it in the sent_3.mbox 
> flat file where news messages are stored.
> 
> Coming to think of it I just checked and google mail does not show any when 
> you view the raw message (Show Original).
> 
> 
> > > The email headers also do not show any X-Original-References: at least in
> > > my Kmail.  :(
> > 
> > No, in mail that header doesn't exist. The mail2news gateway recreates
> > the Message-ID header especially for usenet and puts the original MID in
> > X-Original-Message-ID, which is a custom header.
> > I'm fairly certain that merely taking the X-Original-Message-ID info
> > of the message one wishes to reply to and puting it in the In-Reply-To
> > field of the reply is the trick to reading from usenet without breaking
> > threads posting. The References won't matter.
> > 
> > This post was done that way, so let me know.
> > 
> > :)
> 
> This post only shows:
> 
> Message-ID: <20110605183552.GA23307@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
>

Yes, but does it appear correctly threaded?

BTW this sort of thing is just one example of why I prefer mutt.
Not sure why some MUAs and newsreaders insist on making a secret 
of the original, actual, message headers, but I tend not to trust 
software that does that sort of thing. Probably it's just the 
result of a misguided "no-one wants all that 'extra' info cluttering 
things up" belief, but you never know.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 21:36 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> > > This post was done that way, so let me know.
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > :)
> >
> > 
> >
> > This post only shows:
> > 
> >
> > Message-ID: <20110605183552.GA23307@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
> 
> Yes, but does it appear correctly threaded?

Yes, it is now correct.

KMail threads it correctly using it's "perfect" setting - not using references 
and subject lines. The last 5 messages all thread correctly back to this one 
by David:

Message-ID: <20110605164819.0b013841@karnak.local>

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 10:16:01PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 21:36 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > > > This post was done that way, so let me know.
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > :)
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > This post only shows:
> > > 
> > >
> > > Message-ID: <20110605183552.GA23307@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
> > 
> > Yes, but does it appear correctly threaded?
> 
> Yes, it is now correct.
> 
> KMail threads it correctly using it's "perfect" setting - not using references 
> and subject lines. The last 5 messages all thread correctly back to this one 
> by David:
> 
> Message-ID: <20110605164819.0b013841@karnak.local>
> 
> 

Thanks!

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[David W Noon]

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On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 20:20:01 +0200, Mick wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
Re: Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

[snip]
>This is what Knode is showing as header references in your message
>that I thereafter responded using Knode and news.gmane.org:
>
>Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail

Bingo!  We have our culprit.

Here is my Path: header for your message:

Path: mx04.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!
feeder.eternal-september.org!newsfeed.x-privat.org!bofh.it!news.nic.it!
robomod

A Path: line is read from right to left.  This means that the message
started at "robomod" -- which is a mail->news gateway, most likely from
the list server -- and then went via NNTP to news.nic.it and then to
bofh.it.  Only at this stage were the message id's modified!!  This is
not the list server, as I had previously thought, but some newsserver
that has penchant for corrupting header lines.

Perhaps the BOFH description is appropriate. ... :-)

[For those not old enough to remember, here is a link to the original:
  http://bofh.ntk.net/BOFH/index.php
]

The upshot is that anybody who reads this list through an NNTP server
that is downstream from bofh.it will be replying with bogus message
id's.  This will cause thread breakage whenever a reader's MUA cannot
rebuild the thread from Subject: and Date: header lines.

Just *why* the bofh.it server does this to the message id's has me
baffled.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

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David W Noon wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 20:20:01 +0200, Mick wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
> Re: Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:
>
> [snip]
>    
>> This is what Knode is showing as header references in your message
>> that I thereafter responded using Knode and news.gmane.org:
>>
>> Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail
>>      
> Bingo!  We have our culprit.
>
> Here is my Path: header for your message:
>
> Path: mx04.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!
> feeder.eternal-september.org!newsfeed.x-privat.org!bofh.it!news.nic.it!
> robomod
>
> A Path: line is read from right to left.  This means that the message
> started at "robomod" -- which is a mail->news gateway, most likely from
> the list server -- and then went via NNTP to news.nic.it and then to
> bofh.it.  Only at this stage were the message id's modified!!  This is
> not the list server, as I had previously thought, but some newsserver
> that has penchant for corrupting header lines.
>
> Perhaps the BOFH description is appropriate. ... :-)
>
> [For those not old enough to remember, here is a link to the original:
>    http://bofh.ntk.net/BOFH/index.php
> ]
>
> The upshot is that anybody who reads this list through an NNTP server
> that is downstream from bofh.it will be replying with bogus message
> id's.  This will cause thread breakage whenever a reader's MUA cannot
> rebuild the thread from Subject: and Date: header lines.
>
> Just *why* the bofh.it server does this to the message id's has me
> baffled.
>    

By the way, your reply started a new thread, either yours or the 
previous message broke something.

I'm not quite so confused now.  This didn't help any:

Bastard Operator From Hell (/BOFH/)

This is another way of reading that but there may be a few ladies on 
here.  ;-)  I now realize that you are talking about a news server 
thingy.  lol  Cleared up a little mud at least.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[David W Noon]

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On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 17:06:28 -0500, Dale wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
Re: Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

[snip]
> By the way, your reply started a new thread, either yours or the 
> previous message broke something.

That's because I was replying to Mick's message from the NNTP server
news.eternal-september.org.  It is downstream from bofh.it.

This reply should not break threading, as I am replying to your message
received directly from the mailing list. [I have switched my
subscription from "nomail" to "mail".]

> I'm not quite so confused now.  This didn't help any:
> 
> Bastard Operator From Hell (/BOFH/)

Well, if you read the BOFH stories, you will find that the central
character has a penchant for treating users with contempt.

> This is another way of reading that but there may be a few ladies on 
> here.  ;-)  I now realize that you are talking about a news server 
> thingy.  lol  Cleared up a little mud at least.  lol

Well, I'm glad we have sorted out the mystery.  I don't know if we can
get the sysadmin to fix the rogue newsserver.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

David W Noon wrote:
>
> Well, I'm glad we have sorted out the mystery.  I don't know if we can
> get the sysadmin to fix the rogue newsserver.
>    

I know one thing, ya'll beat it to death trying to figure out what was 
breaking it.  You are likely right tho, they may not care if it is fixed 
or not.  Maybe if enough people complained.  Surely there are lots of 
people that still use threading to follow topics.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[David W Noon]

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On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 21:30:01 +0200, Mick wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

>On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 19:59:59 David W Noon wrote:
[snip]
>> Are we all confused enough for this weekend? ... :-)
>
>Ha, ha!  I'm more than others it seems!

It has been a knotty problem.

>Also have a look at gmane.  Some of your responses (and Indi's) are
>broken.

Indi and I both use the same NNTP server to poll the list, so we both
get the same munged message id's.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
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dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
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[gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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David W Noon wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 21:30:01 +0200, Mick wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
> Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:
> 
>>On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 19:59:59 David W Noon wrote:
> [snip]
>>> Are we all confused enough for this weekend? ... :-)
>>
>>Ha, ha!  I'm more than others it seems!
> 
> It has been a knotty problem.
> 
>>Also have a look at gmane.  Some of your responses (and Indi's) are
>>broken.
> 
> Indi and I both use the same NNTP server to poll the list, so we both
> get the same munged message id's.

I guess next step is to contact the offending NNTP server admin and ask them 
to fix their header munging algorithms?

PS. This is sent via Knode/news.gmane.org
- -- 
Regards,
Mick
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