[gentoo-user] thunderbird "fixed" folders?

[gentoo-user] thunderbird "fixed" folders?

[Indi]

So, following several suggestions I emerge thunderbird for 
testing, and the first thing I noticed is it does what people 
insist it doesn't do: creates redundant Trash and Drafts folders, 
both locally and (cardinal sin) on the remote server!
So now in mutt there are all these redundant mail folders screwing 
up my carefully created IMAP structure. 
So, merely invoking thunderbird has created a mess.

Doesn't appear to be fixable...
Hopefully I'm wrong and there's a trick to it?

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

[gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:07:24PM -0400, Indi wrote:
> So, following several suggestions I emerge thunderbird for 
> testing, and the first thing I noticed is it does what people 
> insist it doesn't do: creates redundant Trash and Drafts folders, 
> both locally and (cardinal sin) on the remote server!
> So now in mutt there are all these redundant mail folders screwing 
> up my carefully created IMAP structure. 
> So, merely invoking thunderbird has created a mess.
> 
> Doesn't appear to be fixable...
> Hopefully I'm wrong and there's a trick to it?
> 

Ok, got it -- weirdly enough, one has to use the CLI to address
this. The GUI preferences dialog doesn't have a provision for
making t-bird not create unwanted folders, but once they're created
can be deleted in ~/.thunderbird/ and then they don't come back 
when t-bird is restarted.

Now it's running with only the remote and local IMAP structures
as they're supposed to be.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

[gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Mick]

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Hash: SHA1

Indi wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:07:24PM -0400, Indi wrote:
>> So, following several suggestions I emerge thunderbird for
>> testing, and the first thing I noticed is it does what people
>> insist it doesn't do: creates redundant Trash and Drafts folders,
>> both locally and (cardinal sin) on the remote server!
>> So now in mutt there are all these redundant mail folders screwing
>> up my carefully created IMAP structure.
>> So, merely invoking thunderbird has created a mess.
>> 
>> Doesn't appear to be fixable...
>> Hopefully I'm wrong and there's a trick to it?
>> 
> 
> Ok, got it -- weirdly enough, one has to use the CLI to address
> this. The GUI preferences dialog doesn't have a provision for
> making t-bird not create unwanted folders, but once they're created
> can be deleted in ~/.thunderbird/ and then they don't come back
> when t-bird is restarted.
> 
> Now it's running with only the remote and local IMAP structures
> as they're supposed to be.

One more reasons I gravitated towards kmail ...

PS. I'm sure there is a GUI solution to the additional folders it creates 
too, you need to define the paths for Trash and Sent folders and point these 
to the server.  If you don't it'll create its own.  O_O
- -- 
Regards,
Mick
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 02:27 on Monday 06 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:07:24PM -0400, Indi wrote:
> > So, following several suggestions I emerge thunderbird for
> > testing, and the first thing I noticed is it does what people
> > insist it doesn't do: creates redundant Trash and Drafts folders,
> > both locally and (cardinal sin) on the remote server!
> > So now in mutt there are all these redundant mail folders screwing
> > up my carefully created IMAP structure.
> > So, merely invoking thunderbird has created a mess.
> > 
> > Doesn't appear to be fixable...
> > Hopefully I'm wrong and there's a trick to it?
> 
> Ok, got it -- weirdly enough, one has to use the CLI to address
> this. The GUI preferences dialog doesn't have a provision for
> making t-bird not create unwanted folders, but once they're created
> can be deleted in ~/.thunderbird/ and then they don't come back
> when t-bird is restarted.
> 
> Now it's running with only the remote and local IMAP structures
> as they're supposed to be.

Believe it or not you are supposed to "make invisible" all the junk the app 
created.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 10:27:48AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
> Believe it or not you are supposed to "make invisible" all the junk the app 
> created.
> 
> 

Well, once you get some of the amazingly bone-headed defaults corrected 
tbird is pretty nice -- for people with eagle eyes who don't need an
integrated addressbook function, which describes no-one I know....

After much googling the conclusion is many many people are desperately 
unhappy about the fonts in tbrd and incredibly, it ain't fixable!
Hard-coded font sizes -- isn't that, like, retardn00b mistake #4?
:)

Another giant, glaring flaw: Doesn't appear to be any addressbook
integration whatsoever that I can find, so it's necessary to pretend 
it's the 80s and remember the ancient practice of clunkily, manually 
C & P from the *separate* addressbook. Jeeeezus, and people think mutt 
is barebones, LOL (address autocompletion Just Works in mutt). 

I've already got a whopper of an eyestrain headache just from
testing it.

Tbird dismissed, not a realistic option.
My users will bitch a blue streak over the lack of address autocomplete, 
god forbid they should have to type anything longer than "OMGLOL"...

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Tanstaafl]

On 2011-06-06 6:34 AM, Indi wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 10:27:48AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> Believe it or not you are supposed to "make invisible" all the junk the app 
>> created.

Dunno what that means... you have to tell it where to store Drafts,
Trash, Sent messages, etc - what is so surprising about that?

Once you tell it, you can then delete the folders it automatically
created if you use differently named ones...

> Well, once you get some of the amazingly bone-headed defaults corrected 
> tbird is pretty nice -- for people with eagle eyes who don't need an
> integrated addressbook function, which describes no-one I know....
> 
> After much googling the conclusion is many many people are desperately 
> unhappy about the fonts in tbrd and incredibly, it ain't fixable!
> Hard-coded font sizes -- isn't that, like, retardn00b mistake #4?
> :)

Easily fixable... Tools > Options > Display > Formatting

> Another giant, glaring flaw: Doesn't appear to be any addressbook
> integration whatsoever that I can find, so it's necessary to pretend 
> it's the 80s and remember the ancient practice of clunkily, manually 
> C & P from the *separate* addressbook. Jeeeezus, and people think mutt 
> is barebones, LOL (address autocompletion Just Works in mutt). 

Auto-completion's been working fine for me since 1.0...

Methinks you are experiencing a PEBKAC problem...

> I've already got a whopper of an eyestrain headache just from
> testing it.
> 
> Tbird dismissed, not a realistic option.

Your dismissal is dismissed...

Did you get Mutt configured to your liking in 30 seconds? Or did you
actually spend a few minutes, and not ass-u-me that your initial
dislikes were not fixable?

> My users will bitch a blue streak over the lack of address autocomplete, 
> god forbid they should have to type anything longer than "OMGLOL"...

My biggest gripe with the AB is its lack of printing options...

I'd also like the ability to define certain AB's as to be NOT included
in the autocomplete function... currently, it searches them all with no
way to tell it to ignore any of them.

So I'm not sure what your problem is...

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 12:34 on Monday 06 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 10:27:48AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Believe it or not you are supposed to "make invisible" all the junk the
> > app created.
> 
> Well, once you get some of the amazingly bone-headed defaults corrected
> tbird is pretty nice -- for people with eagle eyes who don't need an
> integrated addressbook function, which describes no-one I know....
> 
> After much googling the conclusion is many many people are desperately
> unhappy about the fonts in tbrd and incredibly, it ain't fixable!
> Hard-coded font sizes -- isn't that, like, retardn00b mistake #4?
> 
> :)

No, no, no! Surely you jest?

tbird is a Moz product. Rendering stuff on screen is almost everything that 
they do ... everything else supporting just that one thing

> Another giant, glaring flaw: Doesn't appear to be any addressbook
> integration whatsoever that I can find, so it's necessary to pretend
> it's the 80s and remember the ancient practice of clunkily, manually
> C & P from the *separate* addressbook. Jeeeezus, and people think mutt
> is barebones, LOL (address autocompletion Just Works in mutt).
> 
> I've already got a whopper of an eyestrain headache just from
> testing it.
> 
> Tbird dismissed, not a realistic option.
> My users will bitch a blue streak over the lack of address autocomplete,
> god forbid they should have to type anything longer than "OMGLOL"...

I kinda liked claws last time I tried it (earlier this year). Much like KMail 
of old it just does mail and does it well.

I found I couldn't use it though - I rely on the KDE addressbook a lot (it's 
hooked into the GAL) and claws tended to get *really* upset everytime Exchange 
pulled it's usual stunt of popping out for 20 minutes coffee breaks 4 times a 
day.

That's not claws' fault - I squarely blame Exchange for

a) Advertising it does IMAP but doesn't really pay attention to standards
b) Saying the service is up when it isn't really

KMail OTOH, just sits in the corner and quietly sulks when Exchange goes away; 
then tries again in 15 minutes. Which suits me just fine. The requirement for 
kdelibs doesn't bother me - this is a KDE machine


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 12:56 on Monday 06 June 2011, Tanstaafl did 
opine thusly:

> On 2011-06-06 6:34 AM, Indi wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 10:27:48AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> Believe it or not you are supposed to "make invisible" all the junk the
> >> app  created.
> 
> Dunno what that means... you have to tell it where to store Drafts,
> Trash, Sent messages, etc - what is so surprising about that?

It seems weird to me that a software package will add folders to the server 
solely because that is it's default then expect the *user* to clean up after 
*it* whether by hiding extra folders or deleting useless ones

It's a minor gripe, to be sure, but a well-rounded release could have shown a 
dialog to the user and asking them to select the various folders to use. Or 
even if it finds "Trash" and expected to find "Junk" or "Deleted Items" it 
could use what is there. There are only so many common synonyms for a trash 
folder, it's not hard for code to look for them all and pick one.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 06:56:25AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2011-06-06 6:34 AM, Indi wrote:
> > 
> > After much googling the conclusion is many many people are desperately 
> > unhappy about the fonts in tbrd and incredibly, it ain't fixable!
> > Hard-coded font sizes -- isn't that, like, retardn00b mistake #4?
> > :)
> 
> Easily fixable... Tools > Options > Display > Formatting
>

No, that only works for the message body.

> > Another giant, glaring flaw: Doesn't appear to be any addressbook
> > integration whatsoever that I can find, so it's necessary to pretend 
> > it's the 80s and remember the ancient practice of clunkily, manually 
> > C & P from the *separate* addressbook. Jeeeezus, and people think mutt 
> > is barebones, LOL (address autocompletion Just Works in mutt). 
> 
> Auto-completion's been working fine for me since 1.0...
> 
> Methinks you are experiencing a PEBKAC problem...
>

Could be, but I doubt it.
Sure would help if they didn't hate the visually impaired...

> > I've already got a whopper of an eyestrain headache just from
> > testing it.
> > 
> > Tbird dismissed, not a realistic option.
> 
> Your dismissal is dismissed...
> 
> Did you get Mutt configured to your liking in 30 seconds? Or did you
> actually spend a few minutes, and not ass-u-me that your initial
> dislikes were not fixable?
> 

Could be that you've done something "special" to make autocomplete
work, it surely doesn't work out of the box for me. 
Anyway, the font thing is a total deal killer.

BTW, those of us with vision issues *need* the options for fonts to be 
obvious, otherwise testing and configuration is very painful. But I
believe enough hours were spent testing that if I didn't find it either
it doesn't exist or is something my users would never find. Google
reports 
"it doesn't exist". Only the fonts in the message itself are affected by
the GUI fonts dialog, the folder pane and message list are
teensy-weensy no matter what (and this includes tracking down all the
font specs available in the /usr/lib/thunderbird/ and editing
those, installing alternate themes and editing those, etc).

Glad it works for you and you're happy, but don't recommend it to your 
friends with less than perfect vision as you'll be wasting their time.
:P

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 01:16:27PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 12:34 on Monday 06 June 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 10:27:48AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > Believe it or not you are supposed to "make invisible" all the junk the
> > > app created.
> > 
> > Well, once you get some of the amazingly bone-headed defaults corrected
> > tbird is pretty nice -- for people with eagle eyes who don't need an
> > integrated addressbook function, which describes no-one I know....
> > 
> > After much googling the conclusion is many many people are desperately
> > unhappy about the fonts in tbrd and incredibly, it ain't fixable!
> > Hard-coded font sizes -- isn't that, like, retardn00b mistake #4?
> > 
> > :)
> 
> No, no, no! Surely you jest?
> 
> tbird is a Moz product. Rendering stuff on screen is almost everything that 
> they do ... everything else supporting just that one thing
>

Yes, well isn't their cluelessness regarding defaults kind of legendary?
I can't use firefox at all without pentadactyl installed.

> > Another giant, glaring flaw: Doesn't appear to be any addressbook
> > integration whatsoever that I can find, so it's necessary to pretend
> > it's the 80s and remember the ancient practice of clunkily, manually
> > C & P from the *separate* addressbook. Jeeeezus, and people think mutt
> > is barebones, LOL (address autocompletion Just Works in mutt).
> > 
> > I've already got a whopper of an eyestrain headache just from
> > testing it.
> > 
> > Tbird dismissed, not a realistic option.
> > My users will bitch a blue streak over the lack of address autocomplete,
> > god forbid they should have to type anything longer than "OMGLOL"...
> 
> I kinda liked claws last time I tried it (earlier this year). Much like KMail 
> of old it just does mail and does it well.
> 
> I found I couldn't use it though - I rely on the KDE addressbook a lot (it's 
> hooked into the GAL) and claws tended to get *really* upset everytime Exchange 
> pulled it's usual stunt of popping out for 20 minutes coffee breaks 4 times a 
> day.
> 
> That's not claws' fault - I squarely blame Exchange for
> 
> a) Advertising it does IMAP but doesn't really pay attention to standards
> b) Saying the service is up when it isn't really
> 
> KMail OTOH, just sits in the corner and quietly sulks when Exchange goes away; 
> then tries again in 15 minutes. Which suits me just fine. The requirement for 
> kdelibs doesn't bother me - this is a KDE machine
> 

Thanks for that info, fortunately no exchange integration is required here.
Claws is the next victim, in fact I've just emerged it.
But now I need a break til the aspirin kicks in.
Damn tbird...

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 06:56:25AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
> Easily fixable... Tools > Options > Display > Formatting
> 

Oh wait a minute, *NOW* I see!

You're not using what I tested at all -- either you're in windows or
you're using something other than thunderbird 3.

Sorry, we don't do windows here.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Tanstaafl]

On 2011-06-06 7:22 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> It's a minor gripe, to be sure, but a well-rounded release could have
> shown a dialog to the user and asking them to select the various
> folders to use. Or even if it finds "Trash" and expected to find
> "Junk" or "Deleted Items" it could use what is there. There are only
> so many common synonyms for a trash folder, it's not hard for code to
> look for them all and pick one.

Agreed.. I never said it was perfect, but like I said, there's not much
about it I don't like, once I get it set up the way I want...

I'm just waiting for the next release based on Gecko 5, so I can use the
Personal Titlebar/Movable Firefox Button extensions (the authors said
they would be able to support Thunderbird once it moves to the newer
versions of Gecko) to get my menus/toolbar up into the window titlebar
(like I have with Firefox now), to maximize my screen real estate... as
it is now, I still have to use the Hide Menubar extension to accomplish
this, but I'd prefer to have them displayed/available all the time in
the Titlebar.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 13:24 on Monday 06 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> BTW, those of us with vision issues need the options for fonts to be 
> obvious, otherwise testing and configuration is very painful. But I
> believe enough hours were spent testing that if I didn't find it either
> it doesn't exist or is something my users would never find. Google
> reports 
> "it doesn't exist". Only the fonts in the message itself are affected by
> the GUI fonts dialog, the folder pane and message list are
> teensy-weensy no matter what (and this includes tracking down all the
> font specs available in the /usr/lib/thunderbird/ and editing
> those, installing alternate themes and editing those, etc).


I *think* tbird uses gtk themes. Does it obey any changes you make there?



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 13:32 on Monday 06 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> > tbird is a Moz product. Rendering stuff on screen is almost everything
> > that  they do ... everything else supporting just that one thing
> 
> Yes, well isn't their cluelessness regarding defaults kind of legendary?
> I can't use firefox at all without pentadactyl installed.

I have to ask:

wtf is pentadactyl?

Sounds ... prehistoric. /me confused


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 01:22:34PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 12:56 on Monday 06 June 2011, Tanstaafl did 
> opine thusly:
> 
> > On 2011-06-06 6:34 AM, Indi wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 10:27:48AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > >> Believe it or not you are supposed to "make invisible" all the junk the
> > >> app  created.
> > 
> > Dunno what that means... you have to tell it where to store Drafts,
> > Trash, Sent messages, etc - what is so surprising about that?
> 
> It seems weird to me that a software package will add folders to the server 
> solely because that is it's default then expect the *user* to clean up after 
> *it* whether by hiding extra folders or deleting useless ones
> 
> It's a minor gripe, to be sure, but a well-rounded release could have shown a 
> dialog to the user and asking them to select the various folders to use. Or 
> even if it finds "Trash" and expected to find "Junk" or "Deleted Items" it 
> could use what is there. There are only so many common synonyms for a trash 
> folder, it's not hard for code to look for them all and pick one.
>

It's not a minor gripe, it's a hugely stupid default.
It forces one to log into the IMAP server manually and restore order, 
as the configuration dialog gives no way of doing that. Then, making
sure tbird is not running, one must go into ~/.thunderbird/, find the 
files that specify IMAp and local folders, figure out the syntax, and 
edit accoringly. It's a ridiculous amount of hoops to force a user to 
jump through, downright user-hostile in fact. 

The fact they carried so many of their mistakes to v3 as if they 
were treasure not to be left behind has perhaps said the most 
about why I can't recommend oor support thunderbird.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Tanstaafl]

On 2011-06-06 8:26 AM, Indi wrote:
> It forces one to log into the IMAP server manually and restore order, 
> as the configuration dialog gives no way of doing that. Then, making
> sure tbird is not running, one must go into ~/.thunderbird/, find the 
> files that specify IMAp and local folders, figure out the syntax, and 
> edit accoringly. It's a ridiculous amount of hoops to force a user to 
> jump through, downright user-hostile in fact. 

Eh??

All you have to do is first tell Thunderbird which folders you want to use:

Tools > Accounts Settings > Copies & Folders

For Trash:

Tools > Accounts Settings > Server Settings > When I delete a message:

Then restart Thunderbird, then  you can delete the folders it created
automatically...

Not idea, I'll grant you, but it isn't *that* hard to do...

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[enno+gentoo]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 808 bytes --]

Hi,

Am 06.06.2011 12:34, schrieb Indi:
> Another giant, glaring flaw: Doesn't appear to be any addressbook
> integration whatsoever that I can find, so it's necessary to pretend 
> it's the 80s and remember the ancient practice of clunkily, manually 
> C & P from the *separate* addressbook. Jeeeezus, and people think mutt 
> is barebones, LOL (address autocompletion Just Works in mutt). 
Don't know about integration of other addressbooks but tb has and always
had its own addressbook. The integrated addressbook and autocompletion
work fine here. Out of the box.
With the lightning addon I have a usable calendar integrated and using
funambol I can easily synchronize with my mobile phone.
As I'm not affected I don't know about any issues for the visually impaired.

Regards,
Enno



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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

You need to realize you're giving advice about the windows version of
thunderbird. IOW you can stop now!

Thank you. 
:)
-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 02:38:17PM +0200, enno+gentoo@groeper-berlin.de wrote:
> 
> As I'm not affected I don't know about any issues for the visually impaired.
> 

Sadly, a lot of people (including developers) seem to think that people 
either see or are blind and that's it. I see plenty well enough for most 
things that need doing (the state of GA even says I can drive, but then
if you've ever been here you know they say that to anyone who pays the 
fee for a DL and doesn't have a seeing eye dog or white cane).

The font thing is one of the main reasons I prefer so many CLI programs.
I can configure my terminals and emulators *once* and most everything I 
need is usable. A lot of the gtk, qt, fltk, etc interfaces are 
absolutely horrible for people who need large text, and it isn't
uncommon for the boxes text has to fit in to be coded to max-out to 
a size which is insufficient. 

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 02:23:06PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 13:32 on Monday 06 June 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > > tbird is a Moz product. Rendering stuff on screen is almost everything
> > > that  they do ... everything else supporting just that one thing
> > 
> > Yes, well isn't their cluelessness regarding defaults kind of legendary?
> > I can't use firefox at all without pentadactyl installed.
> 
> I have to ask:
> 
> wtf is pentadactyl?
> 
> Sounds ... prehistoric. /me confused
> 
> 

It "corrects" the GUI, giving you a nice CLI with vim-like keybindings
and eliminating all the wasted space usually taken up by pointy-clicky
doodads. IOW, most people's worst nightmare. :)

http://dactyl.sourceforge.net/help/pentadactyl/

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Tanstaafl]

On 2011-06-06 8:44 AM, Indi wrote:
> You need to realize you're giving advice about the windows version of
> thunderbird. IOW you can stop now!

As I said, there is nothing indicating that userChrome.css hacks are not
cross-platform. I really did think they were. Also, I *did* state in my
initial post that I was on Windows...

Can anyone else confirm this non crosee-platform nature of the
userChrome.css hacks?

I'll go see if I can find out more details on how/when/why these hacks
work cross platform...

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 06.06.2011 14:44, schrieb Indi:
> 
> You need to realize you're giving advice about the windows version of
> thunderbird. IOW you can stop now!

I use Thunderbird here runnung on my beloved gentoo and all that
Tanstaafl wrote just works here too.

So if it does not work for you it most likely is something on your side.

Greetings

Sebastian


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 03:47:33PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> Am 06.06.2011 14:44, schrieb Indi:
> > 
> > You need to realize you're giving advice about the windows version of
> > thunderbird. IOW you can stop now!
> 
> I use Thunderbird here runnung on my beloved gentoo and all that
> Tanstaafl wrote just works here too.
> 
> So if it does not work for you it most likely is something on your side.
> 

I see you are also not using the same version though, your header 
says "Linux x86_64". Also obviously sometimes we see things like 
someone installs v2.8 and their config lives through 3.5, by which time 
the config GUI has been wrecked and the user insists what they did works 
(and it did, in v2.8), on and on.

Anyway it's over.
The important information is it will fail the users who need everything to 
Just Work and need larger fonts. 

If you (or if anyone using it *on* *linux*) manage(s) to double the 
size of the default fonts in the folder list and message list I'll 
listen, but otherwise I'm done looking at that and have seen enough 
of it to feel justified with that decision. It *is* only one of many
things I have to investigate today, you know. :)

Also, a lot of people seem to be confused about which font I'm talking 
about. They seem to think you just go into settings and change "the
fonts", but those are only for the message body. The folder list and
message list are stubbornly tiny.

Finally, the fact that they have add-ons,. extensions, themes, and all that 
and not a single thing comes up searching for "accessibility" or "fonts" 
is a pretty strong clue...  

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 06.06.2011 16:24, schrieb Indi:

> If you (or if anyone using it *on* *linux*) manage(s) to double the 
> size of the default fonts in the folder list and message list I'll 
> listen,

You mean something like this?
http://twitpic.com/57u6s9

It works just like Tanstaafl said with userChrome.css


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 09:37:26AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2011-06-06 8:44 AM, Indi wrote:
> > You need to realize you're giving advice about the windows version of
> > thunderbird. IOW you can stop now!
> 
> As I said, there is nothing indicating that userChrome.css hacks are not
> cross-platform. I really did think they were. Also, I *did* state in my
> initial post that I was on Windows...
>

Ah so you did, I apologize then for not paying close enough attention.


> Can anyone else confirm this non crosee-platform nature of the
> userChrome.css hacks?
>

The *only* info I can find on userChrome.css for tbird3 was on some 
mozilla support url where it mentions that userChrome.css from v2 
will not work in v3. It does not then go on to say what changes were
made, how to compensate, or offer even one more word about it!
I'm sure it's documented somewhere, but documentation is extremely 
important, and the fact that tbird's is horribly lacking means 
it gets "last resort" status. Remember, this isn't for me it's 
for people who are quite helpless when things don't work as 
advertised.

STFW reveals that many people used userChrome.css in tbird2 
but apparently no-one knows how to make it work in tbird3.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 04:33:20PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> Am 06.06.2011 16:24, schrieb Indi:
> 
> > If you (or if anyone using it *on* *linux*) manage(s) to double the 
> > size of the default fonts in the folder list and message list I'll 
> > listen,
> 
> You mean something like this?
> http://twitpic.com/57u6s9
> 
> It works just like Tanstaafl said with userChrome.css
> 

Very first thing I tried after realizing they stupidly didn't allow 
it in the config options was 

/* Global UI font */
* { font-size: 32px !important;
  font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono !important;
}

Zero results.
At one point it was far more specific with a number of individual 
fonts listed, not one of them worked.

I can only conclude there is a vast gulf of difference between the 
version you're using and the version I tested.
You seem eager to conclude other things, but that's your problem ;)

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 06.06.2011 16:48, schrieb Indi:

> Very first thing I tried after realizing they stupidly didn't allow 
> it in the config options was 
> 
> /* Global UI font */
> * { font-size: 32px !important;
>   font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono !important;
> }
> 
> Zero results.

That looks right.
Where in your profile have you saved the userChrome.css?
It has to be save in the profile subfolder chrome and must be named
userChrome.css (with uppercase C)


Anywhere else don't work.

My userChrome.css is under:
~/.thunderbird/mg8sw72k.default/chrome/userChrome.css

Greetings

Sebastian



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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Tanstaafl]

On 2011-06-06 10:48 AM, Indi wrote:
> At one point it was far more specific with a number of individual 
> fonts listed, not one of them worked.

Did you make the change while Thunderbird was running?

As I said, changes to userChromes.css MUST be done while it is NOT
running, otherwise they WILL NOT WORK.

Also - 32px would be HUGE... the 22px in the example I gave you was way
too big to be useful, so maybe there is a limit to how big you can make
the font - try something smaller FIRST...

If you did, then the only other thing I can think of is your pterodactyl
(or whatever it was) or something else you have running is interfering
in some way with it.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Sebastian Beßler]

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As an extension of my previous mail there is although the addon stylish
that can be used to set all that without the need to restart thunderbird
for every change.

https://addons.mozilla.org/de/thunderbird/addon/stylish/


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Joost Roeleveld]

On Monday 06 June 2011 08:36:47 Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2011-06-06 8:26 AM, Indi wrote:
> > It forces one to log into the IMAP server manually and restore order,
> > as the configuration dialog gives no way of doing that. Then, making
> > sure tbird is not running, one must go into ~/.thunderbird/, find the
> > files that specify IMAp and local folders, figure out the syntax, and
> > edit accoringly. It's a ridiculous amount of hoops to force a user to
> > jump through, downright user-hostile in fact.
> 
> Eh??
> 
> All you have to do is first tell Thunderbird which folders you want to use:
> 
> Tools > Accounts Settings > Copies & Folders
> 
> For Trash:
> 
> Tools > Accounts Settings > Server Settings > When I delete a message:

2 different locations to configure the "default" folders?

> Then restart Thunderbird, then  you can delete the folders it created
> automatically...

Restart to make changes active?

> Not idea, I'll grant you, but it isn't *that* hard to do...

If you know the different locations to change it AND realize you need to 
restart the application for changes like these to take effect?
These settings should be immediately active.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 16:58:55 +0200
Sebastian Beßler <sebastian@darkmetatron.de> wrote:

> Am 06.06.2011 16:48, schrieb Indi:
> 
> > Very first thing I tried after realizing they stupidly didn't allow 
> > it in the config options was 
> > 
> > /* Global UI font */
> > * { font-size: 32px !important;
> >   font-family: DejaVu Sans Mono !important;
> > }
> > 
> > Zero results.
> 
> That looks right.
> Where in your profile have you saved the userChrome.css?
> It has to be save in the profile subfolder chrome and must be named
> userChrome.css (with uppercase C)
> 
> 
> Anywhere else don't work.
> 
> My userChrome.css is under:
> ~/.thunderbird/mg8sw72k.default/chrome/userChrome.css
> 

Yes, tried that and even tried chmodding it to root 
and putting it in /usr/lib/thunderbird/chrome/.

Maybe we should also both remember that I *am* running ~x86?
:)

But really, it's a basic functionality that my users would need *me* 
to do for them -- that alone makes it rather undesirable from my POV, 
surely you can imagine.

Now this, OTOH, is being composed in claws-mail which was
extraordinarily easy to setup and customize. Unlike thunderbird, 
claws-mail wisely bows to gtk theming rather than trying to be
oh-so-cute and special with it's unique themes.

Of course, since I use terminator and firefox gtk theming is 
well within my comfort zone so, claws-mail is easy peasy in that 
regard.  

I'm thinking this is the one I can put people on without upsetting 
anyone.

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 06.06.2011 17:18, schrieb Indi:

> Maybe we should also both remember that I *am* running ~x86?
> :)

That should make now difference, my girlfriend uses ~x86 on her laptop
and there thunderbird reads and applies the userChrome.css just like
here with my ~amd64 thunderbird.

The programmcode for 32bit and 64bit thunderbird is for all parts that
has to do with chrome-rendering absolut the same.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 17:13:39 +0200
Sebastian Beßler <sebastian@darkmetatron.de> wrote:

> As an extension of my previous mail there is although the addon
> stylish that can be used to set all that without the need to restart
> thunderbird for every change.
> 
> https://addons.mozilla.org/de/thunderbird/addon/stylish/
> 

Wow, can't believe stylish didn't show up while searching for
"accessibility" and "fonts"! Bonehead search engine...

Stylish is exactly the right thing, at least in firefox. It's what
allows me to make many web pages readable (that and the "View.Page
Style.No Style" menu option, which I have bound to the "x" key). 
*If* that works in tbird3 it probably would address my problem.

Unfortunately for the tbird devs, all that stuff is not a bit obvious
and so they lose out to the far more common sense option of claws-mail.
Fonts, address book, and everything else so far Just Works.
Virtually idiot-proof, which is great news for me! It means I won't have
to spend 10 minutes of every other hour the next three months explaining
how to do simple things in email and listening to people whine
about it. :D

So my plan is to preset thunderbird as a last resort unsupported option
for those who dislike the options I'm supporting, which are mutt,
evolution, and claws-mail. Everybody seems to hate mutt and evolution,
though, and amazingly at least two still mention how much they miss 
having Outhouse Distress...

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 17:28:14 +0200
Sebastian Beßler <sebastian@darkmetatron.de> wrote:

> Am 06.06.2011 17:18, schrieb Indi:
> 
> > Maybe we should also both remember that I *am* running ~x86?
> > :)
> 
> That should make now difference, my girlfriend uses ~x86 on her laptop
> and there thunderbird reads and applies the userChrome.css just like
> here with my ~amd64 thunderbird.
> 
> The programmcode for 32bit and 64bit thunderbird is for all parts that
> has to do with chrome-rendering absolut the same.
> 

Could be an xulrunner issue going on, I suppose.
It's just thunderbrd is too fussy for my people anyway.
It will make them more dependent upon me, which is the opposite 
of what we want here.

Ho jeez, enough testing of this GUI editor though!
Not being able to move around with hjkl is weird.
Next we'll see how claws does with vim for an editor, and keybindngs...

I prefer my mouse dusty. :)

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Tanstaafl]

On 2011-06-06 11:16 AM, Joost Roeleveld wrote:
> All you have to do is first tell Thunderbird which folders you want to use:
>> Tools > Accounts Settings > Copies & Folders
>> 
>> For Trash:
>> 
>> Tools > Accounts Settings > Server Settings > When I delete a message:

> 2 different locations to configure the "default" folders?

Only the trash is configured in a different way, but for now, yes...

>> Then restart Thunderbird, then  you can delete the folders it created
>> automatically...

> Restart to make changes active?

Yes...

>> Not idea, I'll grant you, but it isn't *that* hard to do...

> If you know the different locations to change it AND realize you need to 
> restart the application for changes like these to take effect?
> These settings should be immediately active.

I didn't write the software. Wishing something a certain way doesn't
make it so, you have to deal with things as they are.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 11:07:28 -0400
Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote:

> On 2011-06-06 10:48 AM, Indi wrote:
> > At one point it was far more specific with a number of individual 
> > fonts listed, not one of them worked.
> 
> Did you make the change while Thunderbird was running?
> 

No.


> Also - 32px would be HUGE... the 22px in the example I gave you was
> way too big to be useful, so maybe there is a limit to how big you
> can make the font - try something smaller FIRST...
>

Uh, no. I will decide what's "too big to be usable", not the software,
thank you.

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 06.06.2011 17:55, schrieb Indi:

> Uh, no. I will decide what's "too big to be usable", not the software,
> thank you.

It is not really the software that decides that. Thunderbird is a gui
application and all guis have limitations that they have to cope with.
Thunderbird with its mostly fixed panes can only tolerate a limited
range of font-sizes. To big and it breaks.

There is not much that can be done about it.




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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 05:28:14PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> Am 06.06.2011 17:18, schrieb Indi:
> 
> > Maybe we should also both remember that I *am* running ~x86?
> > :)
> 
> That should make now difference, my girlfriend uses ~x86 on her laptop
> and there thunderbird reads and applies the userChrome.css just like
> here with my ~amd64 thunderbird.
> 
> The programmcode for 32bit and 64bit thunderbird is for all parts that
> has to do with chrome-rendering absolut the same.
> 

BTW, the testing I did was with version 3.1.10, and with portage
building it, rather than using thunderbird-bin. The version of 
xulrunner is 2.0.1-r1i, which seems to be working just fine with 
both firefox and conkeror (no, I don't mean "konqueror").

Just in case anyone's keeping score and needs the info.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 06:34:34PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> Am 06.06.2011 17:55, schrieb Indi:
> 
> > Uh, no. I will decide what's "too big to be usable", not the software,
> > thank you.
> 
> It is not really the software that decides that. Thunderbird is a gui
> application and all guis have limitations that they have to cope with.
> Thunderbird with its mostly fixed panes can only tolerate a limited
> range of font-sizes. To big and it breaks.
> 
> There is not much that can be done about it.
> 

Thanks, my vision didn't just go bad this morning, so I do have plenty 
of fonts experience. :)

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 12:38:08PM -0400, Indi wrote:
>
> xulrunner is 2.0.1-r1i
>

Should say "2.0.1-r1", sorry.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Sebastian Beßler]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1343 bytes --]

Am 06.06.2011 18:38, schrieb Indi:

> BTW, the testing I did was with version 3.1.10, and with portage
> building it, rather than using thunderbird-bin. The version of 
> xulrunner is 2.0.1-r1i, which seems to be working just fine with 
> both firefox and conkeror (no, I don't mean "konqueror").

Thunderbird doesn't use system xulrunner.
I use mail-client/thunderbird-3.1.10 and xulrunner-5.0_beta2 for firefox.

From thunderbird-3.1.10.ebuild

RDEPEND=">=sys-devel/binutils-2.16.1
        >=dev-libs/nss-3.12.8
        >=dev-libs/nspr-4.8.6
        >=app-text/hunspell-1.2
        x11-libs/cairo[X]
        x11-libs/pango[X]
        alsa? ( media-libs/alsa-lib )
        gnome? ( >=gnome-base/gnome-vfs-2.16.3
                >=gnome-base/libgnomeui-2.16.1
                >=gnome-base/gconf-2.16.0
                >=gnome-base/libgnome-2.16.0 )
        libnotify? ( >=x11-libs/libnotify-0.4 )
        system-sqlite? (
>=dev-db/sqlite-3.7.1[fts3,secure-delete,threadsafe] )
        wifi? ( net-wireless/wireless-tools )
        !x11-plugins/lightning"

DEPEND="${RDEPEND}
        =dev-lang/python-2*[threads]"

PDEPEND="crypt? ( >=x11-plugins/enigmail-1.1 )"

Xulrunner is no dependency for thunderbird, so the version of
system-xulrunner can't have an effect on thunderbird.

Greetings

Sebastian


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 06:50:34PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> 
> 
> Thunderbird doesn't use system xulrunner.
> I use mail-client/thunderbird-3.1.10 and xulrunner-5.0_beta2 for firefox.
> 

Thanks for the info.
What matters though is that it is very hard to configure properly  
for people who need larger fonts so I'm not going to bother 
with it further. Even if userChrome.css worked in the version I tested 
it's too much to expect users to deal with that, and it would add to my
workload. "Call the admin to change your config" is a meme to be avoided. 
:)

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Sebastian Beßler]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 493 bytes --]

Am 06.06.2011 19:04, schrieb Indi:

> Thanks for the info.
> What matters though is that it is very hard to configure properly  
> for people who need larger fonts so I'm not going to bother 
> with it further.

Not every tool is for every user or every need.
If there a better tool to use then why bother with something less.
I'm not a thunderbird fanboy so i can accept that t-bird has its
limitations and its problems and that it is not for everyone.

Greetings

Sebastian


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 07:19:40PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> 
> Not every tool is for every user or every need.
> If there a better tool to use then why bother with something less.
> I'm not a thunderbird fanboy so i can accept that t-bird has its
> limitations and its problems and that it is not for everyone.
> 

Thank you for understanding.
I don't get the thing of people having a personal stake in what others 
choose, but it does seem to be pretty common.

I appreciate the people who tried to help, and I understand those who 
cried "PEBKAC" too. But once it's clear I've followed the same
directions the same way as others and didn't get the same result, it's 
time to ask "is this really important enough to pursue further?".
Sometimes the answer is "no". 

In this case, claws-mail looks *much* easier to support.
Certainly I see the appeal of tbird though, it's responsive and in every
way other than the font sizes (and maybe the addressbook, though I
didn't go as deeply into that) it's a pretty impressive piece of work.

I just want to deploy something more idiot-proof.
And those of you who obviously think *I'm* an idiot, you should 
meet some of my users! Make me look like the Stephen Hawking of 
sysadmins...

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

[gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[James]

Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger <at> gmail.com> writes:


> Sadly, a lot of people (including developers) seem to think that people 
> either see or are blind and that's it. I see plenty well enough for most 
> things that need doing (the state of GA even says I can drive, but then
> if you've ever been here you know they say that to anyone who pays the 
> fee for a DL and doesn't have a seeing eye dog or white cane).


Ha!


Come to Florida; if you are a member of AARP, they'll let you
drive until you run over your second or third victim....


We have folks every week that park their car inside of their
neighbor's living room. Mix that traffic pattern with Tourists
of vacation and you can see just how fun our roads are here.....
Florida leads the nation in fatalities on bicycle and the County
I live in, has the most annual deaths for bicyclers ......

[gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[James]

Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger <at> gmail.com> writes:


> The font thing is one of the main reasons I prefer so many CLI programs.
> I can configure my terminals and emulators *once* and most everything I 
> need is usable. A lot of the gtk, qt, fltk, etc interfaces are 
> absolutely horrible for people who need large text, and it isn't
> uncommon for the boxes text has to fit in to be coded to max-out to 
> a size which is insufficient. 


Using seamonkey as the browser, you can just  set your middle mouse
button or wheel to roll up and down the size of the font for anything
you see. Very convenient for folks that constantly need to adjust fonts sizes.
I never tried to set this up for T-bird, so I'm not sure if that approach
works with T-bird or for your gerontology crowd.


hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Bill Longman]

On 06/06/2011 11:07 AM, James wrote:
> 
> Using seamonkey as the browser, you can just  set your middle mouse
> button or wheel to roll up and down the size of the font for anything
> you see. Very convenient for folks that constantly need to adjust fonts sizes.
> I never tried to set this up for T-bird, so I'm not sure if that approach
> works with T-bird or for your gerontology crowd.

Doesn't work. Works in Namoroka (x86_64 under KDE) using
Ctrl-middle-roll but just scrolls things in Lanikai; no font change there.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Indi]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 18:01:35 +0000 (UTC)
James <wireless@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
> > Sadly, a lot of people (including developers) seem to think that
> > people either see or are blind and that's it. I see plenty well
> > enough for most things that need doing (the state of GA even says I
> > can drive, but then if you've ever been here you know they say that
> > to anyone who pays the fee for a DL and doesn't have a seeing eye
> > dog or white cane).
> 
> 
> Ha!
> 
> 
> Come to Florida; if you are a member of AARP, they'll let you
> drive until you run over your second or third victim....
> 
> 
> We have folks every week that park their car inside of their
> neighbor's living room. Mix that traffic pattern with Tourists
> of vacation and you can see just how fun our roads are here.....
> Florida leads the nation in fatalities on bicycle and the County
> I live in, has the most annual deaths for bicyclers ......
> 

I think it's Randy Cassingham in the This Is True newsletter who 
often mentions the prevalence of crazy people n FL. 
Given the weather, it's no great surprise. The heat here makes me 
feel pretty looney sometimes.

Do people down there spend an inordinate amount of time setting off 
explosives and shooting guns, like they do here in GA? Originally 
I'm from NE PA, which is a pretty redneck place. But GA is a whole 
nother thang, as they say. :) Most people are very nice though, it's 
refreshing. That obsession with explosions though... Nerve wracking.

Never been further south than Alachua, which is actually pretty mellow 
from what I saw -- but that was in early spring. :)

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 20:24 on Monday 06 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> > We have folks every week that park their car inside of their
> > neighbor's living room. Mix that traffic pattern with Tourists
> > of vacation and you can see just how fun our roads are here.....
> > Florida leads the nation in fatalities on bicycle and the County
> > I live in, has the most annual deaths for bicyclers ......
> >
> > 
> 
> I think it's Randy Cassingham in the This Is True newsletter who 
> often mentions the prevalence of crazy people n FL. 
> Given the weather, it's no great surprise. The heat here makes me 
> feel pretty looney sometimes.

Piffle :-)

You all ain't seen nothing yet, try Johannesburg.

We don't have lions and tigers in the streets but we got at least one of 
anything else that's crazy



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 20:59:46 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> You all ain't seen nothing yet, try Johannesburg.
> 
> We don't have lions and tigers in the streets but we got at least one
> of anything else that's crazy

Especially BOFH sysadmins...


-- 
Neil Bothwick

ISDN: It Still Does Nothing

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[gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[walt]

On 06/06/2011 05:26 AM, Indi wrote:
 
> The fact they carried so many of their mistakes to v3 as if they 
> were treasure not to be left behind has perhaps said the most 
> about why I can't recommend or support thunderbird.

I can't disagree, but I've become accustomed to its bugs :)

This thread is so long that I'm just tossing this idea in here
because I don't know where else to put it.

For anyone who likes to twiddle knobs, you could try this trick:

In Edit::Preferences::General there is a setting for "Thunderbird
Start Page".  Enter 'about:config' for the URL and (yes, alas)
restart Thunderbird for the change to take effect.  The foot-
shooting potential is mouth-watering :)

[gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[James]

Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger <at> gmail.com> writes:


> Do people down there spend an inordinate amount of time setting off 
> explosives and shooting guns, like they do here in GA? Originally 
> I'm from NE PA, which is a pretty redneck place. But GA is a whole 
> nother thang, as they say. :) Most people are very nice though, it's 
> refreshing. That obsession with explosions though... Nerve wracking.


You kidding? Florida issues more conceal-carry permits than the 
next 3 state combined. Want the scary statistic, 75% of those
are women.

Ju want closet commando action? Check out some of my old
college buddies from Alaska:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tza2L6kfl8E&feature=youtu.be

PEACE (through superior firepower)
is the Alaskan motto....


James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 01:01 on Tuesday 07 June 2011, James did opine 
thusly:

> Indi <thebeelzebubtrigger <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > Do people down there spend an inordinate amount of time setting off
> > explosives and shooting guns, like they do here in GA? Originally
> > I'm from NE PA, which is a pretty redneck place. But GA is a whole
> > nother thang, as they say. :) Most people are very nice though, it's
> > refreshing. That obsession with explosions though... Nerve wracking.
> 
> You kidding? Florida issues more conceal-carry permits than the
> next 3 state combined. Want the scary statistic, 75% of those
> are women.
> 
> Ju want closet commando action? Check out some of my old
> college buddies from Alaska:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tza2L6kfl8E&feature=youtu.be
> 
> PEACE (through superior firepower)
> is the Alaskan motto....


WTF is that thing the ladies are firing at 1:25 and 4:25? I'll hazard a guess 
at the calibre - 18mm?

And I thought the RPG7s we played with back in the day were impressive....

:-)


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[kashani]

On 6/6/2011 4:31 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 01:01 on Tuesday 07 June 2011, James did opine
> thusly:
>
>> Ju want closet commando action? Check out some of my old
>> college buddies from Alaska:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tza2L6kfl8E&feature=youtu.be
>>
>> PEACE (through superior firepower)
>> is the Alaskan motto....
>
>
> WTF is that thing the ladies are firing at 1:25 and 4:25? I'll hazard a guess
> at the calibre - 18mm?
>
> And I thought the RPG7s we played with back in the day were impressive....

.50 cal or 12.9mm. It's single shot bolt action so it's likely some 
variation of the Barret M82 rifle though there are other systems. $6-8 a 
round to shoot or maybe as low as $3 if you're using reloads.

kashani

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 01:01 on Tuesday 07 June 2011, James did opine
> thusly:
>
>    
>> Indi<thebeelzebubtrigger<at>  gmail.com>  writes:
>>      
>>> Do people down there spend an inordinate amount of time setting off
>>> explosives and shooting guns, like they do here in GA? Originally
>>> I'm from NE PA, which is a pretty redneck place. But GA is a whole
>>> nother thang, as they say. :) Most people are very nice though, it's
>>> refreshing. That obsession with explosions though... Nerve wracking.
>>>        
>> You kidding? Florida issues more conceal-carry permits than the
>> next 3 state combined. Want the scary statistic, 75% of those
>> are women.
>>
>> Ju want closet commando action? Check out some of my old
>> college buddies from Alaska:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tza2L6kfl8E&feature=youtu.be
>>
>> PEACE (through superior firepower)
>> is the Alaskan motto....
>>      
>
> WTF is that thing the ladies are firing at 1:25 and 4:25? I'll hazard a guess
> at the calibre - 18mm?
>
> And I thought the RPG7s we played with back in the day were impressive....
>
> :-)
>
>
>    

They may get away with gun control in some places but I can think of a 
few I wouldn't even want to try it.  lol  Texas, Florida, Alaska and 
actually most southeastern states and some southwestern ones too.  I 
don't know any law enforcement person that would want to try to take the 
guns away from the folks in that video.  I wouldn't for sure.  I may not 
be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I also ain't the dullest.  O_O

That said, Louisiana always scared me the most.  I have always heard 
that they can kill someone and you never find the body.  Lots of 
alligators with healthy appetites down there.  Sort of reminds me of 
that roach motel.  You check in but never leave.  ;-)

Neat video tho.  I think they were shooting sticks of dynamite at times.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Joost Roeleveld]

On Monday 06 June 2011 11:55:07 Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2011-06-06 11:16 AM, Joost Roeleveld wrote:
> >> Not idea, I'll grant you, but it isn't *that* hard to do...
> > 
> > If you know the different locations to change it AND realize you need to
> > restart the application for changes like these to take effect?
> > These settings should be immediately active.
> 
> I didn't write the software. Wishing something a certain way doesn't
> make it so, you have to deal with things as they are.

It's still bad design.
Restarting an application when changing a config-file in a "third-party" editor. 
Yes, that makes sense.
But, when changing a setting using the GUI itself, a restart should not be 
necessary.

I'm not using MS Windows where a reboot is necessary for settings to become 
active.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird "fixed" folders? [SOLVED]

[Todd Goodman]

* kashani <kashani-list@badapple.net> [110606 19:37]:
> On 6/6/2011 4:31 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 01:01 on Tuesday 07 June 2011, James did opine
> > thusly:
> >
> >> Ju want closet commando action? Check out some of my old
> >> college buddies from Alaska:
> >>
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tza2L6kfl8E&feature=youtu.be
> >>
> >> PEACE (through superior firepower)
> >> is the Alaskan motto....
> >
> >
> > WTF is that thing the ladies are firing at 1:25 and 4:25? I'll hazard a guess
> > at the calibre - 18mm?
> >
> > And I thought the RPG7s we played with back in the day were impressive....
> 
> .50 cal or 12.9mm. It's single shot bolt action so it's likely some 
> variation of the Barret M82 rifle though there are other systems. $6-8 a 
> round to shoot or maybe as low as $3 if you're using reloads.
> 
> kashani

The M82 is a 10-rd, box magazine, semi auto, not a bolt action.

It could be a Ferret (bolt action .50 upper on an AR-15 lower) or
similar.

And ammo prices have come back down after people realized the best gun
salesman in the world (Obama) wasn't going to immediately try to push
new anti-self-defense regulations.

Todd

[gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird

[James]

Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:


> WTF is that thing the ladies are firing at 1:25 and 4:25? I'll 
> hazard a guess  at the calibre - 18mm?

Sorry for the delayed response.
Barret 50 cal would be my guess.

> And I thought the RPG7s we played with back in the day were impressive....

Dam shame 911 happened. Lots of folks use to play with all sorts of
pyro-technik-toys. FEDS now have little patience for good old fashion fun.....
anymore.

Besides, if folks can protect themselves, then much less law enforcement
is needed; aka bodes poorly for the political-legal-law_enforcement 
type of feudal business system we are now under, here in the good ole
USA.... i.e. spend your money and let lawyers protect you, based
on the paperwork that the law-enforcement file......

After 4 years in the Marine corp, my nephew's entire battalion
did not (re-up) continue with their military careers. It seems the
"Rules of engagement" just plain suck now. Too many have held fellow
dying marines in their arms as a result of the "Afgan Army regulars'" habit
of shooting American Marines. Big Scandal but Obama does not care. 
Nobody cares; nobody investigates. Better off waiting until a real war comes
about or politicians put their family members into military service......
Then things will change.


CHEERS!

James

[gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 06/10/2011 07:43 PM, James wrote:
> [snip war mongering crap]

Please keep bullshit out of a technical Linux mailing list, thank you.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird

[Dale]

James wrote:
> Alan McKinnon<alan.mckinnon<at>  gmail.com>  writes:
>
>
>    
>> WTF is that thing the ladies are firing at 1:25 and 4:25? I'll
>> hazard a guess  at the calibre - 18mm?
>>      
> Sorry for the delayed response.
> Barret 50 cal would be my guess.
>
>    
>> And I thought the RPG7s we played with back in the day were impressive....
>>      
> Dam shame 911 happened. Lots of folks use to play with all sorts of
> pyro-technik-toys. FEDS now have little patience for good old fashion fun.....
> anymore.
>
> Besides, if folks can protect themselves, then much less law enforcement
> is needed; aka bodes poorly for the political-legal-law_enforcement
> type of feudal business system we are now under, here in the good ole
> USA.... i.e. spend your money and let lawyers protect you, based
> on the paperwork that the law-enforcement file......
>
> After 4 years in the Marine corp, my nephew's entire battalion
> did not (re-up) continue with their military careers. It seems the
> "Rules of engagement" just plain suck now. Too many have held fellow
> dying marines in their arms as a result of the "Afgan Army regulars'" habit
> of shooting American Marines. Big Scandal but Obama does not care.
> Nobody cares; nobody investigates. Better off waiting until a real war comes
> about or politicians put their family members into military service......
> Then things will change.
>
>
> CHEERS!
>
> James
>    

I can't say I blame them.  They give them guns then tell them they can't 
use them.  May as well give them a plastic ball bat to fight with.  It 
would do as much good.  I suspect there is about to be a LOT of that 
going on.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 13:39:09 -0400, Pot wrote:

> > Please keep bullshit out of a technical Linux mailing list, thank you.
> >   

> Please keep bullshit libtard rude remarks out of Linux mailing list,
> thank you.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

RISC: Reduced Into Silly Code

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird

[pk]

On 2011-06-10 19:39, Todd Goodman wrote:

> Please keep bullshit libtard rude remarks out of Linux mailing list,
> thank you.

With the risk of starting a flame war:

I would like to remind you that this is quite an international list;
thus the american views of what's right or not may seem a bit
"otherworldly" to us not from the US. Some of you seem to be living a
life from a (really bad) western movie... And to be really "frank" your
remark seems to me _at least_ as inflammatory as Nikos and he's right in
that this is a gentoo user list which messages should at least have some
sort of relation to gentoo and not political views, right?

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird

[Michael Carr]

On 11/06/11 11:36, pk wrote:
> On 2011-06-10 19:39, Todd Goodman wrote:
>
>> Please keep bullshit libtard rude remarks out of Linux mailing list,
>> thank you.
> With the risk of starting a flame war:
>
> I would like to remind you that this is quite an international list;
> thus the american views of what's right or not may seem a bit
> "otherworldly" to us not from the US. Some of you seem to be living a
> life from a (really bad) western movie... And to be really "frank" your
> remark seems to me _at least_ as inflammatory as Nikos and he's right in
> that this is a gentoo user list which messages should at least have some
> sort of relation to gentoo and not political views, right?
>
> Best regards
>
> Peter K
+1

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunderbird

[Todd Goodman]

* pk <peterk2@coolmail.se> [110611 06:09]:
> On 2011-06-10 19:39, Todd Goodman wrote:
> 
> > Please keep bullshit libtard rude remarks out of Linux mailing list,
> > thank you.
> 
> With the risk of starting a flame war:
> 
> I would like to remind you that this is quite an international list;
> thus the american views of what's right or not may seem a bit
> "otherworldly" to us not from the US. Some of you seem to be living a
> life from a (really bad) western movie... And to be really "frank" your
> remark seems to me _at least_ as inflammatory as Nikos and he's right in
> that this is a gentoo user list which messages should at least have some
> sort of relation to gentoo and not political views, right?
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Peter K

Indeed there are many countries and continents represented and many
different views within each.

To be "frank," I was responding to his hypocrisy of saying that a Gentoo
mailing list should not include political views (rightly so in my
opinion) while espousing condescending political views himself (which
you so kindly cut from the email, however my reply was almost exactly
the same word for word as his.)

I'm now done replying to this thread so everyone who wishes to get in the
last word may have a go at it.

Med väiga häningar,

Todd