Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[David W Noon]

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On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 01:00:01 +0200, Mick wrote about [gentoo-user] Re:
Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

>David W Noon wrote:
[snip]
>> I hope all is clear now.
>
>... as mud!
>
>This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in 
>Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
>
>PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server,
>to see what difference this may make.

Well, here are some interesting header lines from my message to which
you are replying:

Message-ID: <h07vY-7fk-13@gated-at.bofh.it>

References: <gZYsG-h5-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-19@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-27@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZYsG-h5-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-29@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-31@gated-at.bofh.it>

X-Original-Message-ID: <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>

X-Original-References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it>

The X-Original-Message-ID: line is a rewrite of the original Message-ID:
line Claws-Mail assigned when I wrote the message.  The Message-ID:
line is the replacement generated by the bofh.it list server.  These
both look quite kosher.

Now, when we look at the References: and X-Original-References: lines,
we see that the list server has rewritten the message id's of all the
messages referred to earlier in the thread.  I find this a little
strange, as it seems that the message id's sent to Usenet differ from
the ones sent via email.

If we now look at the innards of your message, the one to which I am
currently replying, we see this:

References: <gZYsG-h5-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-19@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-27@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZYsG-h5-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-29@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-31@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h07vY-7fk-13@gated-at.bofh.it>

X-Original-References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
 <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>

The last message id in your X-Original-References: line has used my
original message id, not the one from the Message-ID: line generated by
the Gentoo list server.  This should not cause problems, as the better
mail and news readers should only use In-Reply-To: and References:
header lines for the initial threading.

I should point out that I always post by SMTP to
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org, and never through an NNTP server (not
even my own).  This means that you should not see my original
Message-ID: line, except after it has been rewritten and replaced by
the list server.

So, why is KNode using my original message id for its References: line?

Could you please look at the Message-ID: and X-Original-Message-ID:
lines in my previous message and compare them to those I posted above?
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 16:48:19 David W Noon wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 01:00:01 +0200, Mick wrote about [gentoo-user] Re:
> 
> Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:
> >David W Noon wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> >> I hope all is clear now.
> >
> >... as mud!
> >
> >This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in
> >Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
> >
> >PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server,
> >to see what difference this may make.
> 
> Well, here are some interesting header lines from my message to which
> you are replying:
> 
> Message-ID: <h07vY-7fk-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> References: <gZYsG-h5-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-19@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-27@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZYsG-h5-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-29@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-31@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> X-Original-Message-ID: <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>
> 
> X-Original-References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> The X-Original-Message-ID: line is a rewrite of the original Message-ID:
> line Claws-Mail assigned when I wrote the message.  The Message-ID:
> line is the replacement generated by the bofh.it list server.  These
> both look quite kosher.

I am getting a headache!  O_O

This is what Knode is showing as header references in your message that I 
thereafter responded using Knode and news.gmane.org:

Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail
From: David W Noon <dwnoon@ntlworld.com>
Newsgroups: gmane.linux.gentoo.user
Subject: Re: Threads changing  Was: OT: website design
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 23:22:00 +0100
Organization: Luton Operatic Society
Lines: 64
Approved: news@gmane.org
Message-ID: <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>  [1]
References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
	<h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
Reply-To: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1;

[1] As you can see the Message ID: <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local> 
shown on Usenet is different to the Message-ID: <h07vY-7fk-13@gated-
at.bofh.it> which you mention above, but the same with your X-Original-
Message-ID: <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>.

The Usenet headers do not show any X-Original-References: in your message, at 
least not in my Knode.

The email headers also do not show any X-Original-References: at least in my 
Kmail.  :(


> Now, when we look at the References: and X-Original-References: lines,
> we see that the list server has rewritten the message id's of all the
> messages referred to earlier in the thread.  I find this a little
> strange, as it seems that the message id's sent to Usenet differ from
> the ones sent via email.

I'm not entirely sure that this rewriting is a list server action and wonder 
if it has something to do with your fetchmail setup ...


> If we now look at the innards of your message, the one to which I am
> currently replying, we see this:
> 
> References: <gZYsG-h5-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-19@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-27@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZYsG-h5-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-29@gated-at.bofh.it> <h07vY-7fk-31@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h07vY-7fk-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> X-Original-References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>
> 
> The last message id in your X-Original-References: line has used my
> original message id, not the one from the Message-ID: line generated by
> the Gentoo list server.  This should not cause problems, as the better
> mail and news readers should only use In-Reply-To: and References:
> header lines for the initial threading.
> 
> I should point out that I always post by SMTP to
> gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org, and never through an NNTP server (not
> even my own).  This means that you should not see my original
> Message-ID: line, except after it has been rewritten and replaced by
> the list server.

My Knode reply was via news.gmane.org, but all my other messages (inc. this) 
is to gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org.

> So, why is KNode using my original message id for its References: line?
> 
> Could you please look at the Message-ID: and X-Original-Message-ID:
> lines in my previous message and compare them to those I posted above?

I've done that as I'm showing above.  I've also compared the email and news 
message headers of my previous response through Knode:

Email headers:
Message-ID: <ised0l$m87$1@dough.gmane.org>
References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>

and News headers:

Message-ID: <ised0l$m87$1@dough.gmane.org>
References: <gZXPY-7QA-21@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-3@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-7@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-11@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h04Rs-2L8-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rs-2L8-15@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<gZXPY-7QA-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h04Rr-2L8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> 
<h05ku-3FK-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <20110604232200.36c03637@karnak.local>

Hope this helps somehow ...
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:20:01PM +0200, Mick wrote:
> 
> The Usenet headers do not show any X-Original-References: in your message, at 
> least not in my Knode.
>

They do, but apparently knode isn't showing you all headers.

> The email headers also do not show any X-Original-References: at least in my 
> Kmail.  :(
> 

No, in mail that header doesn't exist. The mail2news gateway recreates  
the Message-ID header especially for usenet and puts the original MID in 
X-Original-Message-ID, which is a custom header.
I'm fairly certain that merely taking the X-Original-Message-ID info
of the message one wishes to reply to and puting it in the In-Reply-To 
field of the reply is the trick to reading from usenet without breaking 
threads posting. The References won't matter.

This post was done that way, so let me know.
:)

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 19:35:52 Indi wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:20:01PM +0200, Mick wrote:
> > The Usenet headers do not show any X-Original-References: in your
> > message, at least not in my Knode.
> 
> They do, but apparently knode isn't showing you all headers.

Well, under View source it doesn't.  Nor is it showing it in the sent_3.mbox 
flat file where news messages are stored.

Coming to think of it I just checked and google mail does not show any when 
you view the raw message (Show Original).


> > The email headers also do not show any X-Original-References: at least in
> > my Kmail.  :(
> 
> No, in mail that header doesn't exist. The mail2news gateway recreates
> the Message-ID header especially for usenet and puts the original MID in
> X-Original-Message-ID, which is a custom header.
> I'm fairly certain that merely taking the X-Original-Message-ID info
> of the message one wishes to reply to and puting it in the In-Reply-To
> field of the reply is the trick to reading from usenet without breaking
> threads posting. The References won't matter.
> 
> This post was done that way, so let me know.
> 
> :)

This post only shows:

Message-ID: <20110605183552.GA23307@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:17:53PM +0100, Mick wrote:
> On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 19:35:52 Indi wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:20:01PM +0200, Mick wrote:
> > > The Usenet headers do not show any X-Original-References: in your
> > > message, at least not in my Knode.
> > 
> > They do, but apparently knode isn't showing you all headers.
> 
> Well, under View source it doesn't.  Nor is it showing it in the sent_3.mbox 
> flat file where news messages are stored.
> 
> Coming to think of it I just checked and google mail does not show any when 
> you view the raw message (Show Original).
> 
> 
> > > The email headers also do not show any X-Original-References: at least in
> > > my Kmail.  :(
> > 
> > No, in mail that header doesn't exist. The mail2news gateway recreates
> > the Message-ID header especially for usenet and puts the original MID in
> > X-Original-Message-ID, which is a custom header.
> > I'm fairly certain that merely taking the X-Original-Message-ID info
> > of the message one wishes to reply to and puting it in the In-Reply-To
> > field of the reply is the trick to reading from usenet without breaking
> > threads posting. The References won't matter.
> > 
> > This post was done that way, so let me know.
> > 
> > :)
> 
> This post only shows:
> 
> Message-ID: <20110605183552.GA23307@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
>

Yes, but does it appear correctly threaded?

BTW this sort of thing is just one example of why I prefer mutt.
Not sure why some MUAs and newsreaders insist on making a secret 
of the original, actual, message headers, but I tend not to trust 
software that does that sort of thing. Probably it's just the 
result of a misguided "no-one wants all that 'extra' info cluttering 
things up" belief, but you never know.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 21:36 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> > > This post was done that way, so let me know.
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > :)
> >
> > 
> >
> > This post only shows:
> > 
> >
> > Message-ID: <20110605183552.GA23307@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
> 
> Yes, but does it appear correctly threaded?

Yes, it is now correct.

KMail threads it correctly using it's "perfect" setting - not using references 
and subject lines. The last 5 messages all thread correctly back to this one 
by David:

Message-ID: <20110605164819.0b013841@karnak.local>

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 10:16:01PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 21:36 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > > > This post was done that way, so let me know.
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > :)
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > This post only shows:
> > > 
> > >
> > > Message-ID: <20110605183552.GA23307@gaurahari.merseine.nu>
> > 
> > Yes, but does it appear correctly threaded?
> 
> Yes, it is now correct.
> 
> KMail threads it correctly using it's "perfect" setting - not using references 
> and subject lines. The last 5 messages all thread correctly back to this one 
> by David:
> 
> Message-ID: <20110605164819.0b013841@karnak.local>
> 
> 

Thanks!

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing

[David W Noon]

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On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 01:10:02 +0200, Dale wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

>David W Noon wrote:
[snip]
>> I hope all is clear now.
>
>Oh, so when it gets broken, I need to find the message before that to 
>see where it got messed up.  Sorry to use the technical term "messed
>up" but it fits rather well.  lol

Yes and no.

In fact, it is the copy of the message I have received that has the
duff Message-ID: line.  If you're receiving this list by email, the
copy you have should have the correct message id.

But it seems to be rather more complicated than I initially thought.

It seems that bofh.it maintains multiple message id's for each
message.  See my reply to Mick Kintzios with all the cryptic message
id's in it for the situation to become more blurred.

Since it has just gone 5 PM, I am going to have a nice hot cup of tea
to think about what all this might really mean.  It's what Sherlock
Holmes would have called a "3-pipe problem", but I'm a non-smoker, so
I'll drink tea instead.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

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On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 19:59:59 David W Noon wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 01:10:02 +0200, Dale wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
> Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >Oh, so when it gets broken, I need to find the message before that to
> >see where it got messed up.  Sorry to use the technical term "messed
> >up" but it fits rather well.  lol
> 
> Okay, this is my second follow-up to this message, and things are
> becoming much clearer in my mind and somewhat more complicated in
> reality.
> 
> The message to which I am replying has the following header lines:
> 
> Message-ID: <h088G-8nx-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> X-Original-Message-ID: <4DEAB868.6040001@gmail.com>
> 
> My first reply has these two header lines, the first of which should be
> part of the thread formation process used by a good MUA:
> 
> References: <h0nU6-PO-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h0nU6-PO-15@gated-at.bofh.it> <h0nU6-PO-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h0nU6-PO-19@gated-at.bofh.it> <h0nU6-PO-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h0nU6-PO-23@gated-at.bofh.it> <h0nU6-PO-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h0nU6-PO-27@gated-at.bofh.it> <h0nU6-PO-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h0nU6-PO-31@gated-at.bofh.it> <h0nU6-PO-33@gated-at.bofh.it>
>  <h0nU6-PO-35@gated-at.bofh.it> <h0o3M-1jx-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> X-Original-References: <gZYsG-h5-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h07vY-7fk-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h07vY-7fk-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h07vY-7fk-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h07vY-7fk-21@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h07vY-7fk-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h07vY-7fk-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h07vY-7fk-27@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<gZYsG-h5-23@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h07vY-7fk-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h07vY-7fk-31@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h07vY-7fk-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 	<h088G-8nx-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
> 
> The X-Original-References: line has the correct message id as the last
> one in the list.  This absolutely correct, which means that Claws-Mail
> is doing the right thing.
> 
> The References: line has some really weird replacements for the ones
> that were originally in the message I submitted.  Unless list messages
> are being assigned different message id's for different distribution
> mechanisms (SMTP/POP3 and NNTP), this means the list server is broken.
> This would be a third, and more pernicious, source of thread breakage.
> 
> In my previous reply to this message, I changed the Subject: line
> slightly: I removed the "Was OT: website design" tail.  This caused the
> thread to break in my MUA too.  In turn, this implies that Claws was
> "wallpapering over the crack" by rejoining the thread using Subject:
> and Date: headers to put the messages into chronological sequence
> within Subject: text grouping.  I suspect other MUAs are doing the same,
> which is why the problem is not perceived more widely.
> 
> I now need to change my subscription details so that I receive messages
> by email, as well as through Usenet.  This will then tell me if message
> id's are the same across delivery mechanisms or different.
> 
> Are we all confused enough for this weekend? ... :-)

Ha, ha!  I'm more than others it seems!

Also have a look at gmane.  Some of your responses (and Indi's) are broken.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

David W Noon wrote:
>
> Are we all confused enough for this weekend? ... :-)
>    

Ya'll lost me long ago.  What exactly is past confusion anyway?  I think 
that is where I am now.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[David W Noon]

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On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 20:20:01 +0200, Mick wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
Re: Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

[snip]
>This is what Knode is showing as header references in your message
>that I thereafter responded using Knode and news.gmane.org:
>
>Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail

Bingo!  We have our culprit.

Here is my Path: header for your message:

Path: mx04.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!
feeder.eternal-september.org!newsfeed.x-privat.org!bofh.it!news.nic.it!
robomod

A Path: line is read from right to left.  This means that the message
started at "robomod" -- which is a mail->news gateway, most likely from
the list server -- and then went via NNTP to news.nic.it and then to
bofh.it.  Only at this stage were the message id's modified!!  This is
not the list server, as I had previously thought, but some newsserver
that has penchant for corrupting header lines.

Perhaps the BOFH description is appropriate. ... :-)

[For those not old enough to remember, here is a link to the original:
  http://bofh.ntk.net/BOFH/index.php
]

The upshot is that anybody who reads this list through an NNTP server
that is downstream from bofh.it will be replying with bogus message
id's.  This will cause thread breakage whenever a reader's MUA cannot
rebuild the thread from Subject: and Date: header lines.

Just *why* the bofh.it server does this to the message id's has me
baffled.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

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David W Noon wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 20:20:01 +0200, Mick wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
> Re: Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:
>
> [snip]
>    
>> This is what Knode is showing as header references in your message
>> that I thereafter responded using Knode and news.gmane.org:
>>
>> Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail
>>      
> Bingo!  We have our culprit.
>
> Here is my Path: header for your message:
>
> Path: mx04.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!
> feeder.eternal-september.org!newsfeed.x-privat.org!bofh.it!news.nic.it!
> robomod
>
> A Path: line is read from right to left.  This means that the message
> started at "robomod" -- which is a mail->news gateway, most likely from
> the list server -- and then went via NNTP to news.nic.it and then to
> bofh.it.  Only at this stage were the message id's modified!!  This is
> not the list server, as I had previously thought, but some newsserver
> that has penchant for corrupting header lines.
>
> Perhaps the BOFH description is appropriate. ... :-)
>
> [For those not old enough to remember, here is a link to the original:
>    http://bofh.ntk.net/BOFH/index.php
> ]
>
> The upshot is that anybody who reads this list through an NNTP server
> that is downstream from bofh.it will be replying with bogus message
> id's.  This will cause thread breakage whenever a reader's MUA cannot
> rebuild the thread from Subject: and Date: header lines.
>
> Just *why* the bofh.it server does this to the message id's has me
> baffled.
>    

By the way, your reply started a new thread, either yours or the 
previous message broke something.

I'm not quite so confused now.  This didn't help any:

Bastard Operator From Hell (/BOFH/)

This is another way of reading that but there may be a few ladies on 
here.  ;-)  I now realize that you are talking about a news server 
thingy.  lol  Cleared up a little mud at least.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[David W Noon]

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On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 17:06:28 -0500, Dale wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
Re: Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

[snip]
> By the way, your reply started a new thread, either yours or the 
> previous message broke something.

That's because I was replying to Mick's message from the NNTP server
news.eternal-september.org.  It is downstream from bofh.it.

This reply should not break threading, as I am replying to your message
received directly from the mailing list. [I have switched my
subscription from "nomail" to "mail".]

> I'm not quite so confused now.  This didn't help any:
> 
> Bastard Operator From Hell (/BOFH/)

Well, if you read the BOFH stories, you will find that the central
character has a penchant for treating users with contempt.

> This is another way of reading that but there may be a few ladies on 
> here.  ;-)  I now realize that you are talking about a news server 
> thingy.  lol  Cleared up a little mud at least.  lol

Well, I'm glad we have sorted out the mystery.  I don't know if we can
get the sysadmin to fix the rogue newsserver.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

David W Noon wrote:
>
> Well, I'm glad we have sorted out the mystery.  I don't know if we can
> get the sysadmin to fix the rogue newsserver.
>    

I know one thing, ya'll beat it to death trying to figure out what was 
breaking it.  You are likely right tho, they may not care if it is fixed 
or not.  Maybe if enough people complained.  Surely there are lots of 
people that still use threading to follow topics.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[David W Noon]

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On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 21:30:01 +0200, Mick wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

>On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 19:59:59 David W Noon wrote:
[snip]
>> Are we all confused enough for this weekend? ... :-)
>
>Ha, ha!  I'm more than others it seems!

It has been a knotty problem.

>Also have a look at gmane.  Some of your responses (and Indi's) are
>broken.

Indi and I both use the same NNTP server to poll the list, so we both
get the same munged message id's.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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[gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David W Noon wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 21:30:01 +0200, Mick wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
> Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:
> 
>>On Sunday 05 Jun 2011 19:59:59 David W Noon wrote:
> [snip]
>>> Are we all confused enough for this weekend? ... :-)
>>
>>Ha, ha!  I'm more than others it seems!
> 
> It has been a knotty problem.
> 
>>Also have a look at gmane.  Some of your responses (and Indi's) are
>>broken.
> 
> Indi and I both use the same NNTP server to poll the list, so we both
> get the same munged message id's.

I guess next step is to contact the offending NNTP server admin and ask them 
to fix their header munging algorithms?

PS. This is sent via Knode/news.gmane.org
- -- 
Regards,
Mick
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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[David W Noon]

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On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:10:02 +0200, Dale wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:

[snip]
>Well, something works now.  This is threaded as it should be.  So, 
>whatever you are doing, keep doing it that away.  lol
>
>I don't want you to think I was upset or anything.  I just went back
>and noticed you was one of the ones that it was breaking the threads
>on.

Not a problem.  In fact, it is not I (or Indi) who is causing the
breakage.

A little further investigation has shown that the Message-ID: line of
all message posted through the Gentoo list server is rewritten,
regardless of its initial value.  This is why correctly posted messages
have the Bastard Operator From Hell designation: the domain name of
Gentoo's list server is bofh.it.  This also means that those who read
this list's messages via email will always see a valid Message-ID: line.

Now, one other possible cause of message id mismatch is people posting
directly to Usenet as well as through the list server.  All NNTP
servers should have the newsgroup that is a reflection of this mailing
list marked as "no posting allowed"; certainly
news.eternal-september.org is configured that way.  However, if a
misposted message gets through from another Usenet-registered NNTP
server, I will see it with the alternate Message-ID: line, not the one
generated by the Gentoo list server.  It is messages such as this that
cause the breakage in threads when somebody (anybody) reading through
an NNTP server posts a follow-up to such a message.

So, when you see a breakage in a message thread, it is the message that
is the tail-end of the original thread that is causing the breakage,
not the message that apparently starts the new thread.

I hope all is clear now.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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[gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Mick]

David W Noon wrote:

> On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:10:02 +0200, Dale wrote about Re: [gentoo-user]
> Threads changing  Was: OT: website design:
> 
> [snip]
>>Well, something works now.  This is threaded as it should be.  So,
>>whatever you are doing, keep doing it that away.  lol
>>
>>I don't want you to think I was upset or anything.  I just went back
>>and noticed you was one of the ones that it was breaking the threads
>>on.
> 
> Not a problem.  In fact, it is not I (or Indi) who is causing the
> breakage.
> 
> A little further investigation has shown that the Message-ID: line of
> all message posted through the Gentoo list server is rewritten,
> regardless of its initial value.  This is why correctly posted messages
> have the Bastard Operator From Hell designation: the domain name of
> Gentoo's list server is bofh.it.  This also means that those who read
> this list's messages via email will always see a valid Message-ID: line.
> 
> Now, one other possible cause of message id mismatch is people posting
> directly to Usenet as well as through the list server.  All NNTP
> servers should have the newsgroup that is a reflection of this mailing
> list marked as "no posting allowed"; certainly
> news.eternal-september.org is configured that way.  However, if a
> misposted message gets through from another Usenet-registered NNTP
> server, I will see it with the alternate Message-ID: line, not the one
> generated by the Gentoo list server.  It is messages such as this that
> cause the breakage in threads when somebody (anybody) reading through
> an NNTP server posts a follow-up to such a message.
> 
> So, when you see a breakage in a message thread, it is the message that
> is the tail-end of the original thread that is causing the breakage,
> not the message that apparently starts the new thread.
> 
> I hope all is clear now.

... as mud!

This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in 
Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@

PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server, to see 
what difference this may make.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Dale]

Mick wrote:
> ... as mud!
>
> This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in
> Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
>
> PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server, to see
> what difference this may make.
>    

Interesting.  Here the thread goes like this:  Starts with Indi, then 
David W Moon and both of us replying to David. Sort of like this in case 
that doesn't make sense:

Indi
     David reply to Indi
         Mick reply to David
         Dale reply to David

So what messed up this time?  Again, I'm using Seamonkey and I use the 
defaults on threads, not sure there is anything else either.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Saturday 04 June 2011 23:53:50 Mick wrote:

> 
> ... as mud!
> 
> This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in
> Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
> 
> PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server, to see
> what difference this may make.

you just started a new thread.


-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 01:58:12AM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Saturday 04 June 2011 23:53:50 Mick wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ... as mud!
> > 
> > This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in
> > Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
> > 
> > PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server, to see
> > what difference this may make.
> you just started a new thread.
>

Sorry, I missed that before. I thought you couldn't post from usenet to
this group -- news.idividual.net won't let you, I know that.
If you *could* get away somehow with posting to this list via usenet 
that would defintely break the thread, unless you copy the old MID 
from the X-Original_Message-ID (or whatever it's called) and use that 
for the In-Reply-To header.

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 01:58 on Sunday 05 June 2011, Volker Armin 
Hemmann did opine thusly:

> On Saturday 04 June 2011 23:53:50 Mick wrote:
> > ... as mud!
> > 
> > This reply of yours (unlike your previous) is shown as a new thread in
> > Knode, not as a threaded reply to Dale's message.  :@
> > 
> > PS. I'm responding using Knode and news.gmane.org as an NNTP server, to
> > see what difference this may make.
> 
> you just started a new thread.

which shows up in the correct place in the old thread with KMail's standard 
display. If his mail broke headers, the KMail was able to deal with it 
regardless

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: website design

[Stroller]

On 4 June 2011, at 02:33, Dale wrote:
> …
> What I would like to know is why some threads get broken up?  My mail client here follows these conversations as threads.  For some reason, recently the threads are getting broken as if someone started a fresh one.
> 
> I'm sure this is not intentional and may not be avoidable but it makes it difficult to follow the conversation.
> 
> Is the same happening for others or is it just picking on me?

Blimey!

I'm so glad you mentioned it.

Having recently moved to a new mail client (major version) I assumed it was just me that was experiencing this problem.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Saturday 04 June 2011 11:59:52 kashani wrote:
> On 6/4/2011 11:43 AM, Indi wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:11:09PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:20 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi
> >> did opine
> >> 
> >> thusly:
> >>> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> >>>> I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort of like
> >>>> top
> >>>> posting.  Some people have to top post because the device they are
> >>>> using won't let them reply any other way.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed
> >>>> somewhere
> >>>> to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using.
> >>> 
> >>> As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference between
> >>> usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It actually
> >>> shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked around a
> >>> couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the email like
> >>> "normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)
> >> 
> >> FWIW,
> >> 
> >> If I set kmail to display just routine ordinary threaded mail there's
> >> a lot less thread breakage. It's not all gone, but it is considerably
> >> less.
> >> 
> >> Setting kmail to display threads based on "activity" - whatever the
> >> blazes that is - breaks things wholesale. I haven't managed to narrow
> >> it down at all so I have no idea what the algorithm is.
> >> 
> >> Looks like there's more to this than just usernet<->mail gateway
> >> brokenness
> > 
> > I'd switch if *mutt* was breaking threading for other people, but I'm
> > pretty sure it isn't. Now kmail and the other pointy-clicky-html-loving
> > apps, *those* I don't trust...  Tried 'em, found 'em wanting. ;)
> > 
> > It would be good to hear from more people running different MUAs,
> > but IMO mutt is the Gold Standard and is almost certaily doing what it's
> > supposed to do.
> 
> Whatever you're using is breaking threading in Thunderbird and I can't
> think of anyone else lately I've had the problem with. Also mutt has
> broken threading in the past and even between different versions of
> itself... so calling it a gold standard may be an overstatement.

it is golden brown, runny and smelly. Some call it 'gold'.


-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:38:52PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Saturday 04 June 2011 11:59:52 kashani wrote:
> > On 6/4/2011 11:43 AM, Indi wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:11:09PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > >> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:20 on Saturday 04 June 2011, Indi
> > >> did opine
> > >> 
> > >> thusly:
> > >>> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> > >>>> I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort of like
> > >>>> top
> > >>>> posting.  Some people have to top post because the device they are
> > >>>> using won't let them reply any other way.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> I just wonder if there is some setting that could be changed
> > >>>> somewhere
> > >>>> to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you were using.
> > >>> 
> > >>> As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference between
> > >>> usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It actually
> > >>> shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked around a
> > >>> couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the email like
> > >>> "normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)
> > >> 
> > >> FWIW,
> > >> 
> > >> If I set kmail to display just routine ordinary threaded mail there's
> > >> a lot less thread breakage. It's not all gone, but it is considerably
> > >> less.
> > >> 
> > >> Setting kmail to display threads based on "activity" - whatever the
> > >> blazes that is - breaks things wholesale. I haven't managed to narrow
> > >> it down at all so I have no idea what the algorithm is.
> > >> 
> > >> Looks like there's more to this than just usernet<->mail gateway
> > >> brokenness
> > > 
> > > I'd switch if *mutt* was breaking threading for other people, but I'm
> > > pretty sure it isn't. Now kmail and the other pointy-clicky-html-loving
> > > apps, *those* I don't trust...  Tried 'em, found 'em wanting. ;)
> > > 
> > > It would be good to hear from more people running different MUAs,
> > > but IMO mutt is the Gold Standard and is almost certaily doing what it's
> > > supposed to do.
> > 
> > Whatever you're using is breaking threading in Thunderbird and I can't
> > think of anyone else lately I've had the problem with. Also mutt has
> > broken threading in the past and even between different versions of
> > itself... so calling it a gold standard may be an overstatement.
> 
> it is golden brown, runny and smelly. Some call it 'gold'.
> 

I hate the way you beat around the bush. Just tell us how you *really*
feel, dammit!

;)

-- 
caveat utilitor
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ 

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Saturday 04 June 2011 15:46:49 Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:38:52PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Saturday 04 June 2011 11:59:52 kashani wrote:
> > > On 6/4/2011 11:43 AM, Indi wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 08:11:09PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > >> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:20 on Saturday 04 June
> > > >> 2011, Indi
> > > >> did opine
> > > >> 
> > > >> thusly:
> > > >>> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 09:54:11AM -0500, Dale wrote:
> > > >>>> I suspected it was whatever device was being used.  Sort
> > > >>>> of like
> > > >>>> top
> > > >>>> posting.  Some people have to top post because the device
> > > >>>> they are
> > > >>>> using won't let them reply any other way.
> > > >>>> 
> > > >>>> I just wonder if there is some setting that could be
> > > >>>> changed
> > > >>>> somewhere
> > > >>>> to make it work correctly with usenet, or whatever you
> > > >>>> were using.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> As soon as Alan said it was me, I thought of the difference
> > > >>> between
> > > >>> usenet and email headers and that mail2news gateway. It
> > > >>> actually
> > > >>> shouldn't be hard to workaround, but having already worked
> > > >>> around a
> > > >>> couple of other issues with it I'm ready to just use the
> > > >>> email like
> > > >>> "normal folks" and be done fooling with it. :)
> > > >> 
> > > >> FWIW,
> > > >> 
> > > >> If I set kmail to display just routine ordinary threaded mail
> > > >> there's a lot less thread breakage. It's not all gone, but it
> > > >> is considerably less.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Setting kmail to display threads based on "activity" -
> > > >> whatever the
> > > >> blazes that is - breaks things wholesale. I haven't managed to
> > > >> narrow it down at all so I have no idea what the algorithm
> > > >> is.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Looks like there's more to this than just usernet<->mail
> > > >> gateway
> > > >> brokenness
> > > > 
> > > > I'd switch if *mutt* was breaking threading for other people,
> > > > but I'm
> > > > pretty sure it isn't. Now kmail and the other
> > > > pointy-clicky-html-loving apps, *those* I don't trust...  Tried
> > > > 'em, found 'em wanting. ;)
> > > > 
> > > > It would be good to hear from more people running different
> > > > MUAs,
> > > > but IMO mutt is the Gold Standard and is almost certaily doing
> > > > what it's supposed to do.
> > > 
> > > Whatever you're using is breaking threading in Thunderbird and I
> > > can't
> > > think of anyone else lately I've had the problem with. Also mutt has
> > > broken threading in the past and even between different versions of
> > > itself... so calling it a gold standard may be an overstatement.
> > 
> > it is golden brown, runny and smelly. Some call it 'gold'.
> 
> I hate the way you beat around the bush. Just tell us how you *really*
> feel, dammit!
> 
> ;)

<diplomatic mode> I have a slightly adverse general opinion about the mail 
client called 'mutt'. I am not saying that this is the fault of its devs nor 
do I suggesst that there is anything wrong with its users. </diplomatic mode>

Pine is slightly less gruesome.. Old kmail rocked. It even did well with 
threads where the thread id was mangled - threading by subject was an option. 
Haven't looked into the options with the kmail beta I am using at the moment. 
I am glad that it is more or less stable.
-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 10:19:51PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> 
> <diplomatic mode> I have a slightly adverse general opinion about the mail 
> client called 'mutt'. I am not saying that this is the fault of its devs nor 
> do I suggesst that there is anything wrong with its users. </diplomatic mode>
> 
> Pine is slightly less gruesome.. Old kmail rocked. It even did well with 
> threads where the thread id was mangled - threading by subject was an option. 
> Haven't looked into the options with the kmail beta I am using at the moment. 
> I am glad that it is more or less stable.
>

Pine is nowhere near being an acceptable mutt replacement, it just 
isn't powerful or versatile enough.
It's been a few years, but I did test a *lot* of MUAs.
What the mutt devs say is true: all MUAs suck, but mutt sucks the least.
Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
at times when dealing with IMAP. It happens in mutt as well, but pretty
rarely and mutt can be killed and started fresh in an instant, unlike
many others.

My experiences with evolution, kmail, thunderbird, and opera were dreadful!
Sylpheed (claws-mail, or whatever they call it now) was pretty
acceptable, and I used that for quite awhile before switching to mutt.

-- 
caveat utilitor
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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:

> Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
> at times when dealing with IMAP.

I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time became
TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have improved since your
testing.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:44:30PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
> Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:
> 
> > Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
> > at times when dealing with IMAP.
> 
> I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time became
> TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have improved since your
> testing.
> 

That's good to know, thanks.
I'm unlikely to switch from mutt (due in part to so many macros and
customizations accumulated the last couple of years), but am always 
keeping an eye out for those I support.  

Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on 
thunderbird and see how they do with it...

-- 
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[gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[walt]

On 06/04/2011 02:59 PM, Indi wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 11:44:30PM +0200, Sebastian Beßler wrote:
>> Am 04.06.2011 23:10, schrieb Indi:
>>
>>> Every single GUI MUA I ever tried would lock up and become unresponsive
>>> at times when dealing with IMAP.
>>
>> I use Thunderbird and IMAP for 3 years now and in all that time became
>> TB never unresponsive. So this point seems to have improved since your
>> testing.
>>
> 
> That's good to know, thanks.
> I'm unlikely to switch from mutt (due in part to so many macros and
> customizations accumulated the last couple of years), but am always 
> keeping an eye out for those I support.  
> 
> Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on 
> thunderbird and see how they do with it...

I've found evolution to be a perfectly fine email client -- but a disaster
as an nntp client.  Evolution insists on sending outgoing mail and fetching
incoming mail *and* fetching all the headers from every newsgroup I read,
all at the same time.  Fetching the news headers takes for fscking *ever*
(not unlike alpine) so I just stopped using evolution and alpine for news.

Thunderbird is my every-day news and email client and I don't switch because
it "just works" for me.

BTW, evolution claims to be a substitute for the MS Office "Outlook" suite,
so I'm assuming that whatever frustrations I have with evolution probably
originate with Outlook.  (But I can't support this claim with real evidence.)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2011 at 04:35:46PM -0700, walt wrote:
> 
> Thunderbird is my every-day news and email client and I don't switch because
> it "just works" for me.
> 

Oh that reminds me, one of the annoyances which seems to be common among 
GUI MUAs is they create a fixed set of IMAP "folders" which one is then 
stuck with whether or not they correspond to the IMAP structure
already established. Does t-bird still do that?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Sebastian Beßler]

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Am 05.06.2011 11:29, schrieb Indi:

> Oh that reminds me, one of the annoyances which seems to be common among 
> GUI MUAs is they create a fixed set of IMAP "folders" which one is then 
> stuck with whether or not they correspond to the IMAP structure
> already established. Does t-bird still do that?

T-bird uses a set of preset folders, but all of them can be changed to
whatever needed.



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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Tanstaafl]

On 06/04/2011 02:59 PM, Indi wrote:
> Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on 
> thunderbird and see how they do with it...

I absolutely love Thunderbird, but with one caveat...

I love it because of its stability, how well it does IMAP, but most
importantly, how configurable it is, both through the use of extensions,
and manual edits to userChrome.css and user.js.

I absolutely *loathe* the default U interface configuration. It took me
about a week to figure out how to get 3.1 to where I liked it and the
way I had had 2.x configured for ages...

So, many people who may hate Thunderbird may just hate the default
config (like I did), and may not realize how easily it is customized, so
that they can have it 'their way'.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On 06/05/2011 11:51 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 06/04/2011 02:59 PM, Indi wrote:
>> Maybe I'll put the next person who complains about evolution on 
>> thunderbird and see how they do with it...
> I absolutely love Thunderbird, but with one caveat...
>
> I love it because of its stability, how well it does IMAP, but most
> importantly, how configurable it is, both through the use of extensions,
> and manual edits to userChrome.css and user.js.
>
> I absolutely *loathe* the default U interface configuration. It took me
> about a week to figure out how to get 3.1 to where I liked it and the
> way I had had 2.x configured for ages...
>
> So, many people who may hate Thunderbird may just hate the default
> config (like I did), and may not realize how easily it is customized, so
> that they can have it 'their way'.

I see what you mean about the default config, LOL.
Been trying to change the font sizes used for the message list and
folder pane, but no success yet. Makes it a bit hard to see things but
other than that it seems pretty nice once you remove the redundant
folders it creates by default. It's much more responsive than the last
version I tested,  a huge improvement in fact.

Just need to figure out what determines those list fonts -- it's in here
somewhere...
 
-- 
  caveat utilitor
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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 07:01:47AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2011-06-05 11:44 PM, Indi wrote:
> > I see what you mean about the default config, LOL.
> > Been trying to change the font sizes used for the message list and
> > folder pane, but no success yet. Makes it a bit hard to see things but
> > other than that it seems pretty nice once you remove the redundant
> > folders it creates by default. It's much more responsive than the last
> > version I tested,  a huge improvement in fact.
> > 
> > Just need to figure out what determines those list fonts -- it's in here
> > somewhere...
> 
> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=thunderbird+change+font+size+in+message+pane
> 
> Like I said, there isn't much you cannot change, but sometimes it takes
> a bit of searching... ;)
> 

Anyone can point to a google search, smartass. :) 
Of course, the search turns up nothing that works for tbird3.

Do you *really* imagine I'd post what I did without searching first?

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Tanstaafl]

On 2011-06-06 7:19 AM, Indi wrote:
> Anyone can point to a google search, smartass. :) 

I've been called worse... ;)

> Of course, the search turns up nothing that works for tbird3.

It doesn't state specifically, but the very first hit works fine for
3.1.10 for me...

> Do you *really* imagine I'd post what I did without searching first?

Well, since the first hack/hit works fine, yeah, that's what I thought...

As to your last - yes, I'm on Windows (as I stated before) - but nothing
says this hack only works on Windows...

You do realize that you cannot edit the userChrome.css file while
Thunderbird is running, right?

Close/kill Thunderbird, then add the following VERBATIM to your
userChrome.css file:

* {
font-size: 22px !important;
font-family: Arial !important;
}

Adjust the font size to what you want, then start thunderbird...

I'll be interested to learn if this DOESN'T work cross-platform, because
I though all userChrome.css and user.js hacks were supposed to be
cross-platform. Maybe your Window Manager is over-riding it somehow?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 08:13:31AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
> As to your last - yes, I'm on Windows (as I stated before) - but nothing
> says this hack only works on Windows...
>

It doesn't work in linux.
It was the first thing I tried.

***[Snip all the rest of the advice that doesn't work in linux]***

You know friend, you *really* shouldn't assume linux users will get 
the same results you're getting on windows. It's a little frustrating, 
especially when you tell people *they're* having PEBKAC errors and
being a bit smug and it turns out *you're* reporting your experiences 
with a whole other OS.

It's bad form, and some people will get angry with you over that sort of
thing. Not me though, I should have stuck to the old rule that "headers
help determine credibility". Had I paid attention to that, I'd have
looked into it better before wastig so much time. :)

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[kashani]

On 6/6/2011 5:36 AM, Indi wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 08:13:31AM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
>>
>> As to your last - yes, I'm on Windows (as I stated before) - but nothing
>> says this hack only works on Windows...
>>
>
> It doesn't work in linux.
> It was the first thing I tried.
>
> ***[Snip all the rest of the advice that doesn't work in linux]***
>
> You know friend, you *really* shouldn't assume linux users will get
> the same results you're getting on windows. It's a little frustrating,
> especially when you tell people *they're* having PEBKAC errors and
> being a bit smug and it turns out *you're* reporting your experiences
> with a whole other OS.
>
> It's bad form, and some people will get angry with you over that sort of
> thing. Not me though, I should have stuck to the old rule that "headers
> help determine credibility". Had I paid attention to that, I'd have
> looked into it better before wastig so much time. :)
>

	I'd like to point out that the PEBCAK was on your end. Again. And next 
time rather than telling people how much they are or aren't assuming 
about your system try following the instruction exactly rather than 
spouting about differences in Windows, Linux, x86, x86_64, Thunderbird, 
mutt, the electrons on your computer, etc etc.

Sheesh.

kashani

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 09:42:01AM -0700, kashani wrote:
> 
> I'd like to point out that the PEBCAK was on your end. 
>

Sorry, no.
And you just used your one shot at trolling me.
Do it again and it's the bozo bin for you.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Bill Longman]

On 06/06/2011 09:52 AM, Indi wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 09:42:01AM -0700, kashani wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to point out that the PEBCAK was on your end. 
>>
> 
> Sorry, no.
> And you just used your one shot at trolling me.
> Do it again and it's the bozo bin for you.

Well, Indi, you are now right alongside "Singapore Citizen" in my filter
list....

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Threads changing Was: OT: website design

[Indi]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 10:16:12AM -0700, Bill Longman wrote:
> On 06/06/2011 09:52 AM, Indi wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 09:42:01AM -0700, kashani wrote:
> >>
> >> I'd like to point out that the PEBCAK was on your end. 
> >>
> > 
> > Sorry, no.
> > And you just used your one shot at trolling me.
> > Do it again and it's the bozo bin for you.
> 
> Well, Indi, you are now right alongside "Singapore Citizen" in my filter
> list....
> 

BFD. 

Wear your inability to read like a medal if you like.

-- 
klaatu virada nicto