Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 08:30:02AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 05:28 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Felix Miata did 
> opine thusly:
> 
> > 
> > Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can emerging
> > one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's unclear to me
> > what "One of the following packages" actually refers to.
> 
> It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that build 
> to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem, they are 
> causing it.
> 
> Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk will 
> link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause gnome to 
> be installed, just gtk+
> 

True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up 
building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
option.
Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such things 
per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for everything.
:)

-- 
caveat utilitor 
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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 10:37 (GMT-0400) Indi composed:

> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 08:30:02 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

>>  It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that build
>>  to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem, they are
>>  causing it.

>>  Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk will
>>  link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause gnome to
>>  be installed, just gtk+

> True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up
> building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
> option.

> Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such things
> per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for everything.
> :)

Yes, for sure. :-)
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 16:37 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 08:30:02AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 05:28 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Felix
> > Miata did
> > 
> > opine thusly:
> > > Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can
> > > emerging one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's
> > > unclear to me what "One of the following packages" actually refers to.
> > 
> > It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that
> > build to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem,
> > they are causing it.
> > 
> > Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk
> > will link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause
> > gnome to be installed, just gtk+
> 
> True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up
> building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
> option.
> Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such
> things per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for
> everything.
> 
> :) 

No, it is much better to enable such a flag globally and *disable* it using 
package.use where you do *not* want it.

Personally, I have better things to do than examine every new or changed 
package that shows up after avuND world and edit package.us for every single 
flag in that huge list.

If a user has gtk+ installed, the common case is that they will want to use it 
globally due to gnome being present. Or they have a different WM but need gtk 
for something (eg wicd, whose kde interface sucks) and then they might as well 
just build gtk support for everything. It's not that much extra time or 
resources.

There are always exceptions of course. Such as USE=ldap. It's widely used, but 
you might not want it globally enabled as USE=ldap translates to many 
different kinds of support in many different ebuilds (think of all the wildly 
varied things you could do with ldap). Dealing with each case on it's own 
merits in package.use make sense here, it's what I do.

Whereas USE=gtk pretty much always translates to muchly the same thing 
everywhere - build the package so that it's gui uses that toolkit. For most 
folk, globally in make.conf makes sense.

One size fits all does not work with advice on USE flags. The only thing that 
works is this:

Make up your own damn mind. Your stuff is different to my stuff.

;-)



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 05:53:56PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 16:37 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > 
> > True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up
> > building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
> > option.
> > Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such
> > things per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for
> > everything.
> > 
> > :) 
> 
> No, it is much better to enable such a flag globally and *disable* it using 
> package.use where you do *not* want it.
> 
> Personally, I have better things to do than examine every new or changed 
> package that shows up after avuND world and edit package.us for every single 
> flag in that huge list.
>

Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
What makes the subtractive method better?

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Willie Wong]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 12:01:20PM -0400, Indi wrote:
> Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
> What makes the subtractive method better?
> 

This is how I interpret Alan's message:

For certain flags when you enable it for a package you will have to
also enable it for its dependencies. So you'll have to chase down the
dependency tree if you enable a flag for a user package and several of
the libraries it uses need the flag too, which may end up requiring
doing several emerge --pretend cycles to sort out.

Whereas if you subtract functionality, you usually won't have to
change the libraries. (The corollary being that if you are going to
remove functionality from the libraries, you should do so by globally
removing the use flag, rather than on the package level.)

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 18:01 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 05:53:56PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 16:37 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did
> > opine
> > 
> > thusly:
> > > True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up
> > > building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
> > > option.
> > > Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such
> > > things per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for
> > > everything.
> > > 
> > > :)
> > 
> > No, it is much better to enable such a flag globally and *disable* it
> > using package.use where you do *not* want it.
> > 
> > Personally, I have better things to do than examine every new or changed
> > package that shows up after avuND world and edit package.us for every
> > single flag in that huge list.
> 
> Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
> What makes the subtractive method better?

It's not subtractive as disabling a flag globally and enabling it when needed 
is the same thing negated.

I'm pointing out that by their nature, most global USE flags are exactly that 
- intended to be global, especially those in use.desc. For the most part the 
user will want the support they provide to be global. When that is not the 
case (the lesser case), an option exists to override the global setting in 
package.use

What you proposed is that one never use global flags and always enable/disable 
them package by package. That gets really tedious with flags used in many 
ebuilds, such as USE=gtk.

Abstaction is good, leverage it to gain the benefits when it works in your 
favour.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Mike Edenfield]

On 5/14/2011 12:01 PM, Indi wrote:
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 05:53:56PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> Apparently, though unproven, at 16:37 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine
>> thusly:
>>
>>>
>>> True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up
>>> building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
>>> option.
>>> Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such
>>> things per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for
>>> everything.
>>>
>>> :)
>>
>> No, it is much better to enable such a flag globally and *disable* it using
>> package.use where you do *not* want it.
>>
>> Personally, I have better things to do than examine every new or changed
>> package that shows up after avuND world and edit package.us for every single
>> flag in that huge list.
>>
>
> Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
> What makes the subtractive method better?

Actually its more like the old "use whichever way makes 
sense for the situation." :)

Its mostly a matter of probability. If I'm using a GNOME 
desktop then I probably *do* want the GTK+ for any packages 
that support it; the same argument goes for KDE and Qt. 
Similarly, if my system is on a Windows AD domain, I 
probably want samba, ldap, and kerberos support for any 
utilities that have it.  If I'm using bash completion 
packages, I don't want to worry about which packages 
do/don't have one, I just want them installed. These type of 
flags have essentially the same effect on every package, and 
as Alan said, there's no need to waste time checking if each 
package does or doesn't support GTK individually if you're 
always going to enable it anyway.

OTOH, I probably don't want to set a USE flag like 'extras' 
or 'doc' globally. In those cases I'll turn it on when 
needed. Similarly, USE flags that only applies to one 
package (like "net-print/hplip snmp scanner hpcups 
new-hpcups hpijs") don't make sense globally, so they are 
best left to package.use.

--Mike

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 05:20:01PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2011/05/14 10:06 (GMT-0400) Willie Wong composed:
> 
> > The above listing shows that phonon will be built with the "vlc" use
> > flag, so clearly you haven't trimmed USE down to "just"
> > bash-completion, ncurses, samba, slang, xattr. In fact, if you had
> > done so you would've also trimmed out cxx, posix, and threads, which
> > would probably not be the best idea.
> 
> The timestamp on my make.conf(.07) file on display at 
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/G/ shows a last written considerably earlier 
> than I last wrote, but ...
> 
> > So for concreteness, can you post the complete USE list, _not_ the
> > list in /etc/make.conf, since that does not show you the USE enabled
> > *by default* on whichever profile you have chosen to use. To get the
> 
> Of this I was totally unaware. So now I know I probably should not have 
> selected the kde profile on first try, but instead selected a minimal and 
> only after being happy with the basics changing to kde.
> 
> Does [1] default/linux/x86/10.0 from 'eselect profile list' amount to a 
> "minimal" install (no X)? If so, is there any reason not to switch to it 
> instead of setting -vlc, and then later when actually ready to enable X, 
> switching back to kde?
> 
> What is the [7] hardened/linux/x86 profile, or better yet, the incantation to 
> get descriptions descriptions of all the available targets?
> 

Use eselect for that, try "eselect profile help" for more info.

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Indi]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 03:10:03PM +0200, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2011 12:43:05 +0000, JDM wrote:
> 
> > That's a clever trick. How do you get emails from emerge? 
> 
> Read the settings for PORTAGE_ELOG in man make.conf.
> 
> 

Or as that man page says, 
"Please see /usr/share/portage/config/make.conf.example
for elog documentation."
:)

-- 
caveat utilitor 
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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 16 May 2011 10:57:14 -0400, Indi wrote:

> > Read the settings for PORTAGE_ELOG in man make.conf.

> Or as that man page says, 
> "Please see /usr/share/portage/config/make.conf.example
> for elog documentation."

I know that's what the man page currently says, but I expect it will be
updated to include the actual information long before this thread is
deleted from all mail archives, so it seemed prudent to point to the man
page and let the user follow the link :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[JDM]

Thnx, have followed advice. I am impressed.
JDM

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 20:57:26 
To: <gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>
Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

On Mon, 16 May 2011 10:57:14 -0400, Indi wrote:

> > Read the settings for PORTAGE_ELOG in man make.conf.

> Or as that man page says, 
> "Please see /usr/share/portage/config/make.conf.example
> for elog documentation."

I know that's what the man page currently says, but I expect it will be
updated to include the actual information long before this thread is
deleted from all mail archives, so it seemed prudent to point to the man
page and let the user follow the link :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Indi]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 05:00:02AM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2011/05/15 22:18 (GMT-0400) Felix Miata composed:
> 
> > I have two Gentoo stanzas in my primary bootloader, one to load the kernel,
> > another to chainload Gentoo's Grub. Loading the kernel works, but chainload
> > gives error 13 invalid executable format. I named the bzImage copied to /boot
> > "kernel-2.6.37-r4f", and symlinked it a vmlinuz. vmlinuz is the name I use in
> > the Grub stanzas. Is Gentoo's Grub expecting the kernel to have a particular
> > name, and I picked a wrong one? Or maybe what it doesn't like is that I
> > uncommented splashimage=(hd0,6)/boot/grub/splash.xpm.gz in menu.lst?
>


I always just copy the bzImage to (for example)
/boot/vmlinux-2.6.38-gentoo-r5, but the name doesn't really matter as
long as it matches your bootloader entry.

> 
> Why setup didn't get this right via emerge I have no idea, unless it didn't 
> actually do anything toward actually setting Grub up. If so, it could be 
> there was already some mismatched Grub code there already from a previous use 
> of the sectors there that didn't like the file format.
>

The install docs are fairly clear that installing the grub pkg is only
the first step of setting up the bootloader.

It seems to me (though I could certainly be wrong) that your best bet 
really is to perform a "vanilla install" first, as much as your hardware 
allows. Just to get to know the system before attempting to customize it.
:)

-- 
caveat utilitor 
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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/16 11:26 (GMT-0400) Indi composed:

> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 05:00:02AM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:

>>  On 2011/05/15 22:18 (GMT-0400) Felix Miata composed:

>>  >  I have two Gentoo stanzas in my primary bootloader, one to load the kernel,
>>  >  another to chainload Gentoo's Grub. Loading the kernel works, but chainload
>>  >  gives error 13 invalid executable format. I named the bzImage copied to /boot
>>  >  "kernel-2.6.37-r4f", and symlinked it a vmlinuz. vmlinuz is the name I use in
>>  >  the Grub stanzas. Is Gentoo's Grub expecting the kernel to have a particular
>>  >  name, and I picked a wrong one? Or maybe what it doesn't like is that I
>>  >  uncommented splashimage=(hd0,6)/boot/grub/splash.xpm.gz in menu.lst?

> I always just copy the bzImage to (for example)
> /boot/vmlinux-2.6.38-gentoo-r5, but the name doesn't really matter as
> long as it matches your bootloader entry.

I spent more time thinking about what happened, and decided the Grub message 
had to be coming from the master Grub trying to chainload the non-existent 
Gentoo Grub, and finding old data from a partition previously using that 
space, rather than something recognizable as boot code.

>>  Why setup didn't get this right via emerge I have no idea, unless it didn't
>>  actually do anything toward actually setting Grub up. If so, it could be
>>  there was already some mismatched Grub code there already from a previous use
>>  of the sectors there that didn't like the file format.

> The install docs are fairly clear that installing the grub pkg is only
> the first step of setting up the bootloader.

At that point I was seriously burned out on reading and rereading docs on 
install attempt #8 on my 5th day trying. I was so joyful seeing pretty colors 
and no error messages that I couldn't think logically. ;-)

> It seems to me (though I could certainly be wrong) that your best bet
> really is to perform a "vanilla install" first, as much as your hardware
> allows. Just to get to know the system before attempting to customize it.
> :)

Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my plan. 
After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good kernel, NFS, 
and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After the errors 
disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I started to wonder 
where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support emerging around that 
time, and more than 3 hours later and time for bed its hundred & some 
packages were still emerging. I woke up hours later to goto the bathroom and 
found that done, so set kdm to install. That hundred plus set of packages is 
still emerging now, nearly 6 hours later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz & 512M RAM is 
on the skimpy side for installing Gentoo?
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 08:25 (GMT+0200) Alan McKinnon composed:

> Felix Miata composed:

>>  emerge: there are no ebuilds built with USE flags to satisfy
>>  ">=media-libs/libcanberra-0.4[gtk]".
>>  !!! One of the following packages is required to complete your request:
>>  - media-libs/libcanberra-0.26 (Change USE: +gtk)
>>  (dependency required by "x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "virtual/notification-daemon-0[gnome]" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "x11-libs/libnotify-0.7.2" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "media-video/vlc-1.1.9[libnotify]" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.3.2" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-4.5.0[vlc]" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "kde-base/kdelibs-4.6.2-r3" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "kde-misc/polkit-kde-kcmodules-0.98_pre20101127"
>>  [ebuild])
>>  <end screen output>

>>  Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can emerging
>>  one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's unclear to me
>>  what "One of the following packages" actually refers to.

> It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that build
> to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem, they are
> causing it.

That's what I was afraid of, a "list" of one followed by a genuine list. :-(

> Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk will
> link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause gnome to
> be installed, just gtk+

Maybe someone can humor me and not go with the "easiest" route. Let's assume 
I could live without any Mozilla products or Gimp, and want a system free not 
just of Gnome but also of GTK. Let's say I'm deaf, and no speakers will ever 
be attached to the system, which has an onboard sound chip rather than a PCI 
sound card I could simply remove. What would it take to eliminate this 
apparent KDE dependence on GTK (and sound support)? How "portable" is a sound 
event library that makes KDE depend on GTK? For now, I've cut USE down to 
only "bash-completion ncurses samba slang xattr", but it hasn't helped me to 
get everything I need to work outside of X. Until I have working NFS and NUM 
state obeying the BIOS, I have little interest in what's required to make X 
functional, and no interest in audible notifications.

BTW, my 3rd kernel did solve my video on ttys problem, and get me access to 
my EXT2 partition. :-)
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 11:38 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Felix Miata did 
opine thusly:

> On 2011/05/14 08:25 (GMT+0200) Alan McKinnon composed:
> > Felix Miata composed:
> >>  emerge: there are no ebuilds built with USE flags to satisfy
> >>  ">=media-libs/libcanberra-0.4[gtk]".
> >>  !!! One of the following packages is required to complete your request:
> >>  - media-libs/libcanberra-0.26 (Change USE: +gtk)
> >>  (dependency required by "x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by "virtual/notification-daemon-0[gnome]"
> >>  [ebuild]) (dependency required by "x11-libs/libnotify-0.7.2" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by "media-video/vlc-1.1.9[libnotify]" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.3.2" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-4.5.0[vlc]" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by "kde-base/kdelibs-4.6.2-r3" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by
> >>  "kde-misc/polkit-kde-kcmodules-0.98_pre20101127" [ebuild])
> >>  <end screen output>
> >>  
> >>  Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can
> >>  emerging one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's
> >>  unclear to me what "One of the following packages" actually refers to.
> > 
> > It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that
> > build to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem,
> > they are causing it.
> 
> That's what I was afraid of, a "list" of one followed by a genuine list.
> :-(

What's hard about it?

You have a failed dependency. The next logical question to ask is "what is the 
dependency? What other package requires this package?"

The only way to answer that is to list them all recursively, all the way back 
to the root of the tree. 

In this case you need libcanberra built with USE=gtk
That depends on x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0
Pulled in by virtual/notification-daemon-0 built with USE=gnome

and so on and so on. It's a simple graph actually.

> 
> > Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk
> > will link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause
> > gnome to be installed, just gtk+
> 
> Maybe someone can humor me and not go with the "easiest" route. Let's
> assume I could live without any Mozilla products or Gimp, and want a
> system free not just of Gnome but also of GTK. Let's say I'm deaf, and no
> speakers will ever be attached to the system, which has an onboard sound
> chip rather than a PCI sound card I could simply remove. What would it
> take to eliminate this apparent KDE dependence on GTK (and sound support)?
> How "portable" is a sound event library that makes KDE depend on GTK? For
> now, I've cut USE down to only "bash-completion ncurses samba slang
> xattr", but it hasn't helped me to get everything I need to work outside
> of X. Until I have working NFS and NUM state obeying the BIOS, I have
> little interest in what's required to make X functional, and no interest
> in audible notifications.

First of all, I don't know what you want. Only you know what you want.

KDE does not depend on GTK here. Reading the above list from the bottom up:

You want KDE, so you get kdelibs. That gives you phonon with vlc support. vlc 
(not a KDE package) is configured to use libnotify, which is a gnome package 
and needs notification-daemon. THAT requires gtk.


Lets back up a bit. With something like Ubuntu, someone (the package 
maintainer) went through a insanely gigantic amount of ball-ache to figure out 
the dependencies and switch stuff on and off so that you never have to deal 
with this. The downside is that you get whatever the maintainer felt you 
should have.

gentoo is different - you are in complete control. This means that you have to 
go through the insanely gigantic ball-ache work yourself. The ebuilds help 
somewhat with USE flags, so with "USE=-gnome -gtk" you could disable all 
optional gnome and gtk dependencies. Sometimes you get a hard dependency that 
isn't optional, in that case you are SOL and must make a decision whether to 
have gnome or not. Either way, you get to choose, and you also get to have to 
think long and hard first.

Back to your list.

The little fucker that is causing your issue is vlc support and libnotify.

Do you want these? Define what you want exactly, and enable or disable USE 
flags to suit your choices.

Do keep in mind that I can't tell you what to do because you haven't really 
defined what you want yet. I could tell you to add 
"-gnome -gtk -vlc -libnotify" 
to USE in /etc/make.conf and that would certainly obliterate gnome for sure. 
But it might also be overreaching.






> 
> BTW, my 3rd kernel did solve my video on ttys problem, and get me access to
> my EXT2 partition. :-)

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Mick]

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On Saturday 14 May 2011 11:21:51 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 11:38 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Felix Miata
> did
> 
> opine thusly:
> > On 2011/05/14 08:25 (GMT+0200) Alan McKinnon composed:
> > > Felix Miata composed:
 
> > >>  Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can
> > >>  emerging one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's
> > >>  unclear to me what "One of the following packages" actually refers
> > >>  to.
> > > 
> > > It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that
> > > build to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem,
> > > they are causing it.
[snip... wise advice from Alan ...]

> Do keep in mind that I can't tell you what to do because you haven't really
> defined what you want yet. I could tell you to add
> "-gnome -gtk -vlc -libnotify"
> to USE in /etc/make.conf and that would certainly obliterate gnome for
> sure. But it might also be overreaching.

If you want libcanberra and therefore you must have USE="gtk", but you do not 
want to have any other packages compiled with the gtk USE flag, you can define 
it only for the package in question by adding a line in 
/etc/portage/package.use like so:

media-libs/libcanberra gtk -oss

to e.g. enable the gtk and disable the oss flags.

To see whether a flag has been set or not and relevant information about it, 
run:

euse -i <flag>

For libcanberra it shows:

[- cD ] gtk (media-libs/libcanberra):
Enables building of gtk+ helper library, gtk+ runtime sound effects and the 
canberra-gtk-play utility. To enable the gtk+ sound effects add canberra-gtk-
module to the colon separated list of modules in the GTK_MODULES environment 
variable.

Use option -I to see which packages have been installed using a particular 
flag.  Have a look in man euse to decipher the symbols.


To see all the flags for a particular package after it has been installed run:

equery uses libcanberra
[ Searching for packages matching libcanberra... ]
[ Colour Code : set unset ]
[ Legend : Left column  (U) - USE flags from make.conf              ]
[        : Right column (I) - USE flags packages was installed with ]
[ Found these USE variables for media-libs/libcanberra-0.26 ]
 U I
 + + alsa       : Adds support for media-libs/alsa-lib (Advanced Linux Sound 
Architecture)
 - - gstreamer  : Adds support for media-libs/gstreamer (Streaming media)
 + + gtk        : Adds support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit)
 - - oss        : Adds support for OSS (Open Sound System)
 - - pulseaudio : Adds support for PulseAudio sound server
 - + sound      : Enable sound support
 - - tdb        : Enables Trivial Database support for caching purposes.


You can also check flags and (r)dependencies on line:

http://gentoo-portage.com/Browse


> > BTW, my 3rd kernel did solve my video on ttys problem, and get me access
> > to my EXT2 partition. :-)

Have you read and applied http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xorg-config.xml to find 
out how to configure your card and xorg?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 12:52 (GMT+0100) Mick composed:

>>  >  BTW, my 3rd kernel did solve my video on ttys problem, and get me access
>>  >  to my EXT2 partition. :-)

> Have you read and applied http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xorg-config.xml to find
> out how to configure your card and xorg?

Reading section 2.2 there is how I realized what it was that I had 
misconfigured previously to cause my video on ttys problem. ;-)

My #1 problem to solve is NFS not working yet (nfs-utils aka libevent, 
portmap, rpc emerge failures), but it would also be very nice to get Grub to 
emerge. Logs: http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/G/
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 09:20 (GMT-0400) Felix Miata composed:

> My #1 problem to solve is NFS not working yet (nfs-utils aka libevent,
> portmap, rpc emerge failures), but it would also be very nice to get Grub to
> emerge. Logs: http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/G/

Now as noted in the econf failed thread I've succeeded in emerging nfs-utils 
and grub, but neither work right.

I have two Gentoo stanzas in my primary bootloader, one to load the kernel, 
another to chainload Gentoo's Grub. Loading the kernel works, but chainload 
gives error 13 invalid executable format. I named the bzImage copied to /boot 
"kernel-2.6.37-r4f", and symlinked it a vmlinuz. vmlinuz is the name I use in 
the Grub stanzas. Is Gentoo's Grub expecting the kernel to have a particular 
name, and I picked a wrong one? Or maybe what it doesn't like is that I 
uncommented splashimage=(hd0,6)/boot/grub/splash.xpm.gz in menu.lst?

The errors from NFS are different than I originally encountered, and indicate 
that neither portmap nor rpcbind are running. Which of the two did nfs-utils 
actually install (or both?), and what exactly is its name I need to use with 
rc-update or start one or the other manually to get my server's exports 
mounted locally?
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/15 22:18 (GMT-0400) Felix Miata composed:

> I have two Gentoo stanzas in my primary bootloader, one to load the kernel,
> another to chainload Gentoo's Grub. Loading the kernel works, but chainload
> gives error 13 invalid executable format. I named the bzImage copied to /boot
> "kernel-2.6.37-r4f", and symlinked it a vmlinuz. vmlinuz is the name I use in
> the Grub stanzas. Is Gentoo's Grub expecting the kernel to have a particular
> name, and I picked a wrong one? Or maybe what it doesn't like is that I
> uncommented splashimage=(hd0,6)/boot/grub/splash.xpm.gz in menu.lst?

I got this to work too:

# grub
grub> find /boot/grub/stage1
grub> root (hd0,6)
grub> setup (hd0,6)
grub> quit
#

Why setup didn't get this right via emerge I have no idea, unless it didn't 
actually do anything toward actually setting Grub up. If so, it could be 
there was already some mismatched Grub code there already from a previous use 
of the sectors there that didn't like the file format.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 15 May 2011 22:54:14 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Why setup didn't get this right via emerge I have no idea, unless it
> didn't actually do anything toward actually setting Grub up.

Emerging GRUB installs it, that's all. The post installation message
would have told you to set i up, but it's up to you to do the work.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I'm not closed minded, you're just wrong.

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Tanstaafl]

On 2011-05-15 10:54 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
> Why setup didn't get this right via emerge I have no idea, unless it
> didn't actually do anything toward actually setting Grub up. If so, it
> could be there was already some mismatched Grub code there already from
> a previous use of the sectors there that didn't like the file format.

Felix - you need to start reading the post-install messages when
emerging things.

With Gentoo, a lot of times, you have to actually do things manually
after installing something - as you found with GRUB.

Most people set things up so they get emails of the post install
messages when emerging things, but it is up to you to actually read them
and, when necessary, follow the instructions.

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[JDM]

That's a clever trick. How do you get emails from emerge? 
JDM

-----Original Message-----
From: Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org>
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 07:58:34 
To: <gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>
Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

On 2011-05-15 10:54 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
> Why setup didn't get this right via emerge I have no idea, unless it
> didn't actually do anything toward actually setting Grub up. If so, it
> could be there was already some mismatched Grub code there already from
> a previous use of the sectors there that didn't like the file format.

Felix - you need to start reading the post-install messages when
emerging things.

With Gentoo, a lot of times, you have to actually do things manually
after installing something - as you found with GRUB.

Most people set things up so they get emails of the post install
messages when emerging things, but it is up to you to actually read them
and, when necessary, follow the instructions.

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 16 May 2011 12:43:05 +0000, JDM wrote:

> That's a clever trick. How do you get emails from emerge? 

Read the settings for PORTAGE_ELOG in man make.conf.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 001: Windows loaded - System in danger

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Stroller]

On 16/5/2011, at 1:43pm, JDM wrote:
>> Most people set things up so they get emails of the post install
>> messages when emerging things, but it is up to you to actually read them
>> and, when necessary, follow the instructions.
> That's a clever trick. How do you get emails from emerge? 

$ grep -i mail /etc/make.conf 
PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM="save mail"
PORTAGE_ELOG_MAILURI="root"
PORTAGE_ELOG_MAILFROM="portage@hex"
$

(I follow the guiding principal that root and postmaster should always be correctly aliased, and that mail to them should be delivered correctly to another named user, my own).

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Indi]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 06:10:02PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my plan. 
> After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good kernel, NFS, 
> and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After the errors 
> disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I started to wonder 
> where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support emerging around that 
> time, and more than 3 hours later and time for bed its hundred & some 
> packages were still emerging. I woke up hours later to goto the bathroom and 
> found that done, so set kdm to install. That hundred plus set of packages is 
> still emerging now, nearly 6 hours later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz & 512M RAM is 
> on the skimpy side for installing Gentoo?
>

Not to mention there is pretty much no way you'll be using kde on that
hardware! I'd be surprised if X would be usable on that even with blackbox 
wm...

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Indi]

> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:18:49PM -0400, Indi wrote:
> > On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 06:10:02PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> > > 
> > > Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my plan. 
> > > After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good kernel, NFS, 
> > > and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After the errors 
> > > disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I started to wonder 
> > > where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support emerging around that 
> > > time, and more than 3 hours later and time for bed its hundred & some 
> > > packages were still emerging. I woke up hours later to goto the bathroom and 
> > > found that done, so set kdm to install. That hundred plus set of packages is 
> > > still emerging now, nearly 6 hours later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz & 512M RAM is 
> > > on the skimpy side for installing Gentoo?
> > >
> > 
> > Not to mention there is pretty much no way you'll be using kde on that
> > hardware! I'd be surprised if X would be usable on that even with blackbox 
> > wm...
> > 
> 

Oh jeesh, my bad -- I saw "167 MHz", but it's "1667 MHz".
Sorry! :/ (My eyesight is not good)
Yes, you shoud be able to run whatever DE/WM.
 
-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 
 

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 18:18 on Monday 16 May 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 06:10:02PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> > Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my
> > plan. After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good
> > kernel, NFS, and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After the
> > errors disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I
> > started to wonder where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support
> > emerging around that time, and more than 3 hours later and time for bed
> > its hundred & some packages were still emerging. I woke up hours later
> > to goto the bathroom and found that done, so set kdm to install. That
> > hundred plus set of packages is still emerging now, nearly 6 hours
> > later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz & 512M RAM is on the skimpy side for
> > installing Gentoo?
> 
> Not to mention there is pretty much no way you'll be using kde on that
> hardware! I'd be surprised if X would be usable on that even with blackbox
> wm...

This is a joke right?



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 18:18 on Monday 16 May 2011, Indi did opine
> thusly:
>
>    
>> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 06:10:02PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
>>      
>>> Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my
>>> plan. After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good
>>> kernel, NFS, and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After the
>>> errors disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I
>>> started to wonder where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support
>>> emerging around that time, and more than 3 hours later and time for bed
>>> its hundred&  some packages were still emerging. I woke up hours later
>>> to goto the bathroom and found that done, so set kdm to install. That
>>> hundred plus set of packages is still emerging now, nearly 6 hours
>>> later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz&  512M RAM is on the skimpy side for
>>> installing Gentoo?
>>>        
>> Not to mention there is pretty much no way you'll be using kde on that
>> hardware! I'd be surprised if X would be usable on that even with blackbox
>> wm...
>>      
> This is a joke right?
>
>    

I once ran Gentoo Linux with KDE3 on a 133Mhz machine with 256Mbs of 
ram.  It wasn't fast but it did OK.  A friend used it to play cards on.  
No internet or anything tho.

I did the compiling via chroot on my old rig which had a much faster CPU 
and such.  I just plugged the drive into my rig and did my thing.

It may be slow but it should work.  Make sure you have some swap tho.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 23:15 on Monday 16 May 2011, Dale did opine 
thusly:

> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 18:18 on Monday 16 May 2011, Indi did
> > opine
> > 
> > thusly:
> >> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 06:10:02PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> >>> Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my
> >>> plan. After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good
> >>> kernel, NFS, and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After
> >>> the errors disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I
> >>> started to wonder where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support
> >>> emerging around that time, and more than 3 hours later and time for
> >>> bed its hundred&  some packages were still emerging. I woke up hours
> >>> later to goto the bathroom and found that done, so set kdm to install.
> >>> That hundred plus set of packages is still emerging now, nearly 6
> >>> hours later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz&  512M RAM is on the skimpy side for
> >>> installing Gentoo?
> >> 
> >> Not to mention there is pretty much no way you'll be using kde on that
> >> hardware! I'd be surprised if X would be usable on that even with
> >> blackbox wm...
> > 
> > This is a joke right?
> 
> I once ran Gentoo Linux with KDE3 on a 133Mhz machine with 256Mbs of
> ram.  It wasn't fast but it did OK.  A friend used it to play cards on.
> No internet or anything tho.
> 
> I did the compiling via chroot on my old rig which had a much faster CPU
> and such.  I just plugged the drive into my rig and did my thing.
> 
> It may be slow but it should work.  Make sure you have some swap tho.


I pondered for a long time how to reply to Indi.

I had many posts typed out, most of them rude, all of them classic Alan, but 
something held me back. Lucky it went that way, he later posted he read 
1667MHZ as 167MHz.

Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 16 May 2011 23:40:32 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> I had many posts typed out, most of them rude, all of them classic
> Alan, but something held me back. Lucky it went that way, he later
> posted he read 1667MHZ as 167MHz.
> 
> Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)

Not nearly as much as a "6" :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WWW: World Wide Wait

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 01:01 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Neil Bothwick 
did opine thusly:

> On Mon, 16 May 2011 23:40:32 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > I had many posts typed out, most of them rude, all of them classic
> > Alan, but something held me back. Lucky it went that way, he later
> > posted he read 1667MHZ as 167MHz.
> > 
> > Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)
> 
> Not nearly as much as a "6" :P


I *really* need to get some sleep and go to bed _right_now_

<sigh>


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Pandu Poluan]

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 06:18, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 01:01 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Neil Bothwick
> did opine thusly:
>
>> On Mon, 16 May 2011 23:40:32 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> > I had many posts typed out, most of them rude, all of them classic
>> > Alan, but something held me back. Lucky it went that way, he later
>> > posted he read 1667MHZ as 167MHz.
>> >
>> > Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)
>>
>> Not nearly as much as a "6" :P
>
>
> I *really* need to get some sleep and go to bed _right_now_
>
> <sigh>
>
>

I <3 this list :-D

-- 
Pandu E Poluan
~ IT Optimizer ~
Visit my Blog: http://pepoluan.posterous.com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/16 19:01 (GMT-0400) Neil Bothwick composed:

> On Mon, 16 May 2011 23:40:32 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

>>  he read 1667MHZ as 167MHz.

>>  Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)

> Not nearly as much as a "6" :P

Sure it can! In 1111101000b, any of those "1"s represents more than 6. Indi 
misread 11010000011b as 10100111b, while "6" is only 110b. :-)
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Indi]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:10:02PM +0200, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2011 10:57:14 -0400, Indi wrote:
> 
> > > Read the settings for PORTAGE_ELOG in man make.conf.
> 
> > Or as that man page says, 
> > "Please see /usr/share/portage/config/make.conf.example
> > for elog documentation."
> 
> I know that's what the man page currently says, but I expect it will be
> updated to include the actual information long before this thread is
> deleted from all mail archives, so it seemed prudent to point to the man
> page and let the user follow the link :)
> 
> 

Quite right, thanks. :)

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Indi]

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 01:10:02AM +0200, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2011 23:40:32 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
> > I had many posts typed out, most of them rude, all of them classic
> > Alan, but something held me back. Lucky it went that way, he later
> > posted he read 1667MHZ as 167MHz.
> > 
> > Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)
> 
> Not nearly as much as a "6" :P
> 

Or an "s"*.
:)

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 
*(I'm an old woman)

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 01:28 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 01:10:02AM +0200, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Mon, 16 May 2011 23:40:32 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > I had many posts typed out, most of them rude, all of them classic
> > > Alan, but something held me back. Lucky it went that way, he later
> > > posted he read 1667MHZ as 167MHz.
> > > 
> > > Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)
> > 
> > Not nearly as much as a "6" :P
> 
> Or an "s"*.
> 
> :)


You're speaking to a grumpy old fart combined language git, who not only 
studied English first language at length but an entire 5 year high school 
career in Latin as well. This makes me eminently qualified to opine thusly:

All persons working in technology fields necessarily display masculine 
attributes, hence shall be uniformly referred to by the male form of pronouns, 
i.e. all techies are addressed as "he". The female form is not incorrect, but 
discouraged.

All objects of technology (aka stuff what we work on), due to the peculiar 
interaction shown to them by techies, shall be uniformly referred to by means 
of the female form of pronouns. Vehicles and computers are especially to be 
referred to using the "she" form. Motorcycles triply so.

Users, n00bs, marketing persons, hairdressers, telephone handset sanitizers 
and other assorted riff-raff of the human species should be referred to using 
the neuter form of pronouns, i.e. "it", as befitting their overall 
contribution to humanity.

You see what I did there? You see how I recovered with a witty reposte without 
even blinking an eye? It takes nerves of steel and much practise to pull that 
one off, I tell you!

Let's see how long it takes Neil to find the grammar errors in that lot :-)

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 17 May 2011 01:49:29 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

 should be
> referred to using the neuter form of pronouns, i.e. "it", as befitting
> their overall contribution to humanity.
> 
> You see what I did there? You see how I recovered with a witty reposte
> without even blinking an eye? It takes nerves of steel and much
> practise to pull that one off, I tell you!
> 
> Let's see how long it takes Neil to find the grammar errors in that
> lot :-)
> 
Well, since you asked...

> All objects of technology (aka stuff what we work on),

Stuff WHAT we work on?

> Users, n00bs, marketing persons, hairdressers, telephone handset
> sanitizers and other assorted riff-raff of the human species

Douglas Adams was English, our second greatest writer, so that should be
telephone sanitiser - but that's nit-picking, even form me :)

Oh, and it should be grammatical errors :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I don't have any solution, but I certainly admire the problem.

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 09:16 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Neil Bothwick 
did opine thusly:


While we are nitpicking:


> Douglas Adams was English, our second greatest writer,


That should be "greatest writer", the other fellow was not the greatest - he 
merely wrote soap operas.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 17 May 2011 09:29:29 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > Douglas Adams was English, our second greatest writer,  
 
> That should be "greatest writer", the other fellow was not the greatest
> - he merely wrote soap operas.

I don't know what you mean, unless you mistakenly assumed I was referring
to Shakespeare... I wasn't.

I was of course referring to the one who came before Adams, whose merest
operational parameters he was not worthy to calculate - Nigel Kneale.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

C Error #029: Well! I'm impressed

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Joost Roeleveld]

On Tuesday 17 May 2011 08:16:20 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> Douglas Adams was English, our second greatest writer

Who do you class as the greatest English writer then?

> , so that should be
> telephone sanitiser - but that's nit-picking, even form me :)

[nipick] "even form me"? :P [/nitpick]

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 10:22 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Joost Roeleveld 
did opine thusly:

> On Tuesday 17 May 2011 08:16:20 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > Douglas Adams was English, our second greatest writer
> 
> Who do you class as the greatest English writer then?

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Joost Roeleveld]

On Tuesday 17 May 2011 10:35:48 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 10:22 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Joost
> Roeleveld
> 
> did opine thusly:
> > On Tuesday 17 May 2011 08:16:20 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > > Douglas Adams was English, our second greatest writer
> > 
> > Who do you class as the greatest English writer then?
> 
> Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings

You like Vogon Poetry as well then? ;)

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 11:21 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Joost Roeleveld 
did opine thusly:

> On Tuesday 17 May 2011 10:35:48 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 10:22 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Joost
> > Roeleveld
> > 
> > did opine thusly:
> > > On Tuesday 17 May 2011 08:16:20 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > > > Douglas Adams was English, our second greatest writer
> > > 
> > > Who do you class as the greatest English writer then?
> > 
> > Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings
> 
> You like Vogon Poetry as well then? ;)


I have no choice. Resistance is futile.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 17 May 2011 10:22:35 +0200, Joost Roeleveld wrote:

> > telephone sanitiser - but that's nit-picking, even form me :)  
> 
> [nipick] "even form me"? :P [/nitpick]

I think we should both be more careful with our typing when nit-picking :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

COMMAND: A suggestion made to a computer.

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Joost Roeleveld]

On Tuesday 17 May 2011 10:19:30 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2011 10:22:35 +0200, Joost Roeleveld wrote:
> > > telephone sanitiser - but that's nit-picking, even form me :)
> > 
> > [nipick] "even form me"? :P [/nitpick]
> 
> I think we should both be more careful with our typing when nit-picking :(

Probably :)

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Indi]

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 09:40:01AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 09:16 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Neil Bothwick 
> did opine thusly:
> 
> 
> While we are nitpicking:
> 
> 
> > Douglas Adams was English, our second greatest writer,
> 
> 
> That should be "greatest writer", the other fellow was not the greatest - he 
> merely wrote soap operas.
> 

IMO it's "co-greatest writer": 
tossup between Douglas Adams and Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

-- 
caveat utilitor 
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