Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 05:00:03PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2011/05/14 10:37 (GMT-0400) Indi composed:
> 
> > Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such things
> > per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for everything.
> > :)
> 
> Yes, for sure. :-)
>

Also, have you seen this page?
http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Kernel_Mode_Setting#Forcing_a_Resolution

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 11:04 (GMT-0400) Indi composed:

> Felix Miata wrote:

>>  On 2011/05/14 10:37 (GMT-0400) Indi composed:

>>  >  Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such things
>>  >  per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for everything.
>>  >  :)

>>  Yes, for sure. :-)

> Also, have you seen this page?
> http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Kernel_Mode_Setting#Forcing_a_Resolution

I hadn't. That and its referenced commit message are good resources. :-)

I'd already tried various video= incantations based upon something I read 
elsewhere. With this GeForce2 MX400 video card, video=1152x864-24@60 
discombobulates the ttys, while both video=1152x864-32@60 and (plain) 
video=1152x864 apparently work fine.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 09:00:02PM +0200, Willie Wong wrote:
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 12:01:20PM -0400, Indi wrote:
> > Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
> > What makes the subtractive method better?
> > 
> 
> This is how I interpret Alan's message:
> 
> For certain flags when you enable it for a package you will have to
> also enable it for its dependencies. So you'll have to chase down the
> dependency tree if you enable a flag for a user package and several of
> the libraries it uses need the flag too, which may end up requiring
> doing several emerge --pretend cycles to sort out.
> 
> Whereas if you subtract functionality, you usually won't have to
> change the libraries. (The corollary being that if you are going to
> remove functionality from the libraries, you should do so by globally
> removing the use flag, rather than on the package level.)
> 

Well perhaps it's nitpicking, but I like my systems as lean as possible.
I almost never emerge anything without -av options, just so I can say
"no" and edit package.use if need be. It rarely causes more than a few 
extra seconds to be consumed, since my needs don't change terribly often.
Depends on how one uses the system, I suppose...

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Mick]

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On Saturday 14 May 2011 20:06:18 Indi wrote:
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 09:00:02PM +0200, Willie Wong wrote:
> > On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 12:01:20PM -0400, Indi wrote:
> > > Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
> > > What makes the subtractive method better?
> > 
> > This is how I interpret Alan's message:
> > 
> > For certain flags when you enable it for a package you will have to
> > also enable it for its dependencies. So you'll have to chase down the
> > dependency tree if you enable a flag for a user package and several of
> > the libraries it uses need the flag too, which may end up requiring
> > doing several emerge --pretend cycles to sort out.
> > 
> > Whereas if you subtract functionality, you usually won't have to
> > change the libraries. (The corollary being that if you are going to
> > remove functionality from the libraries, you should do so by globally
> > removing the use flag, rather than on the package level.)
> 
> Well perhaps it's nitpicking, but I like my systems as lean as possible.
> I almost never emerge anything without -av options, just so I can say
> "no" and edit package.use if need be. It rarely causes more than a few
> extra seconds to be consumed, since my needs don't change terribly often.
> Depends on how one uses the system, I suppose...

Except when 260+ packages need updating as it happened with the last KDE 
upgrade.  I had a cursory look, but I missed some USE flag changes (scanner, 
rdesktop and vnc I think) which started removing packages and libraries.  
Other flag changes may well have added packages that I didn't need, but didn't 
have the time to go through the lot at the time.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 21:51 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Mick did opine 
thusly:

> > Well perhaps it's nitpicking, but I like my systems as lean as possible.
> > I almost never emerge anything without -av options, just so I can say
> > "no" and edit package.use if need be. It rarely causes more than a few
> > extra seconds to be consumed, since my needs don't change terribly often.
> > Depends on how one uses the system, I suppose...
> 
> Except when 260+ packages need updating as it happened with the last KDE 
> upgrade.  I had a cursory look, but I missed some USE flag changes
> (scanner,  rdesktop and vnc I think) which started removing packages and
> libraries. Other flag changes may well have added packages that I didn't
> need, but didn't have the time to go through the lot at the time.

Is your emerge output colorized?

USE flag changes show up in green and the status indicators inside [ebuild   ] 
at the start of lines are in yellow. It's a huge gain being able to pick out 
the few new things that really stand out that way.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 14 May 2011 22:55:49 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > Except when 260+ packages need updating as it happened with the last
> > KDE upgrade.  I had a cursory look, but I missed some USE flag changes
> > (scanner,  rdesktop and vnc I think) which started removing packages
> > and libraries. Other flag changes may well have added packages that I
> > didn't need, but didn't have the time to go through the lot at the
> > time.  
> 
> Is your emerge output colorized?
> 
> USE flag changes show up in green and the status indicators inside
> [ebuild   ] at the start of lines are in yellow. It's a huge gain being
> able to pick out the few new things that really stand out that way.

It also helps if you don't use -v, as then the only USE flags shown are
changes.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

-Come, come, why they couldn't hit an elephant from this dist-

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Mick]

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On Sunday 15 May 2011 19:14:26 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2011 22:55:49 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > Except when 260+ packages need updating as it happened with the last
> > > KDE upgrade.  I had a cursory look, but I missed some USE flag changes
> > > (scanner,  rdesktop and vnc I think) which started removing packages
> > > and libraries. Other flag changes may well have added packages that I
> > > didn't need, but didn't have the time to go through the lot at the
> > > time.
> > 
> > Is your emerge output colorized?
> > 
> > USE flag changes show up in green and the status indicators inside
> > [ebuild   ] at the start of lines are in yellow. It's a huge gain being
> > able to pick out the few new things that really stand out that way.
> 
> It also helps if you don't use -v, as then the only USE flags shown are
> changes.

Of course!  Been using -v out of habit and had forgotten about this.  :)
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 20:14 on Sunday 15 May 2011, Neil Bothwick did 
opine thusly:

> On Sat, 14 May 2011 22:55:49 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > Except when 260+ packages need updating as it happened with the last
> > > KDE upgrade.  I had a cursory look, but I missed some USE flag changes
> > > (scanner,  rdesktop and vnc I think) which started removing packages
> > > and libraries. Other flag changes may well have added packages that I
> > > didn't need, but didn't have the time to go through the lot at the
> > > time.
> > 
> > Is your emerge output colorized?
> > 
> > USE flag changes show up in green and the status indicators inside
> > [ebuild   ] at the start of lines are in yellow. It's a huge gain being
> > able to pick out the few new things that really stand out that way.
> 
> It also helps if you don't use -v, as then the only USE flags shown are
> changes.

I got out of that habit as I found without -v I'd more often than not ask 
myself "I wonder what other flags are used for this package, and do I need to 
tweak them?"

I call it prudence. My gf says it's me being bloody OCD again :-)

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Mick]

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On Sunday 15 May 2011 20:53:04 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 20:14 on Sunday 15 May 2011, Neil Bothwick
> did
> 
> opine thusly:
> > On Sat, 14 May 2011 22:55:49 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > > Except when 260+ packages need updating as it happened with the last
> > > > KDE upgrade.  I had a cursory look, but I missed some USE flag
> > > > changes (scanner,  rdesktop and vnc I think) which started removing
> > > > packages and libraries. Other flag changes may well have added
> > > > packages that I didn't need, but didn't have the time to go through
> > > > the lot at the time.
> > > 
> > > Is your emerge output colorized?
> > > 
> > > USE flag changes show up in green and the status indicators inside
> > > [ebuild   ] at the start of lines are in yellow. It's a huge gain being
> > > able to pick out the few new things that really stand out that way.
> > 
> > It also helps if you don't use -v, as then the only USE flags shown are
> > changes.
> 
> I got out of that habit as I found without -v I'd more often than not ask
> myself "I wonder what other flags are used for this package, and do I need
> to tweak them?"
> 
> I call it prudence. My gf says it's me being bloody OCD again :-)

I was planning to run it twice anyway, without & with ...  ;-)

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 15 May 2011 21:53:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > It also helps if you don't use -v, as then the only USE flags shown
> > are changes.  
> 
> I got out of that habit as I found without -v I'd more often than not
> ask myself "I wonder what other flags are used for this package, and do
> I need to tweak them?"
> 
> I call it prudence. My gf says it's me being bloody OCD again :-)

Of course you're OCD - you use Gentoo, don't you? ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"Time is the best teacher....., unfortunately it kills all the students"

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 11:00:02PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 18:01 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > 
> > Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
> > What makes the subtractive method better?
> 
> It's not subtractive as disabling a flag globally and enabling it when needed 
> is the same thing negated.
> 
> I'm pointing out that by their nature, most global USE flags are exactly that 
> - intended to be global, especially those in use.desc. For the most part the 
> user will want the support they provide to be global. When that is not the 
> case (the lesser case), an option exists to override the global setting in 
> package.use
> 
> What you proposed is that one never use global flags and always enable/disable 
> them package by package. That gets really tedious with flags used in many 
> ebuilds, such as USE=gtk.
> 
> Abstaction is good, leverage it to gain the benefits when it works in your 
> favour.
> 

No, I do not propose that one never use global use flags. I just employ
them very selectively, which is best for my needs.

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 23:09 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> No, I do not propose that one never use global use flags. I just employ
> them very selectively, which is best for my needs.

OK. 

I'll take that as clarifying what you said earlier. Thanks for that.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Indi]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 06:10:02PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my plan. 
> After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good kernel, NFS, 
> and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After the errors 
> disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I started to wonder 
> where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support emerging around that 
> time, and more than 3 hours later and time for bed its hundred & some 
> packages were still emerging. I woke up hours later to goto the bathroom and 
> found that done, so set kdm to install. That hundred plus set of packages is 
> still emerging now, nearly 6 hours later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz & 512M RAM is 
> on the skimpy side for installing Gentoo?
>

Not to mention there is pretty much no way you'll be using kde on that
hardware! I'd be surprised if X would be usable on that even with blackbox 
wm...

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Indi]

> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:18:49PM -0400, Indi wrote:
> > On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 06:10:02PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> > > 
> > > Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my plan. 
> > > After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good kernel, NFS, 
> > > and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After the errors 
> > > disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I started to wonder 
> > > where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support emerging around that 
> > > time, and more than 3 hours later and time for bed its hundred & some 
> > > packages were still emerging. I woke up hours later to goto the bathroom and 
> > > found that done, so set kdm to install. That hundred plus set of packages is 
> > > still emerging now, nearly 6 hours later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz & 512M RAM is 
> > > on the skimpy side for installing Gentoo?
> > >
> > 
> > Not to mention there is pretty much no way you'll be using kde on that
> > hardware! I'd be surprised if X would be usable on that even with blackbox 
> > wm...
> > 
> 

Oh jeesh, my bad -- I saw "167 MHz", but it's "1667 MHz".
Sorry! :/ (My eyesight is not good)
Yes, you shoud be able to run whatever DE/WM.
 
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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 18:18 on Monday 16 May 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 06:10:02PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> > Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my
> > plan. After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good
> > kernel, NFS, and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After the
> > errors disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I
> > started to wonder where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support
> > emerging around that time, and more than 3 hours later and time for bed
> > its hundred & some packages were still emerging. I woke up hours later
> > to goto the bathroom and found that done, so set kdm to install. That
> > hundred plus set of packages is still emerging now, nearly 6 hours
> > later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz & 512M RAM is on the skimpy side for
> > installing Gentoo?
> 
> Not to mention there is pretty much no way you'll be using kde on that
> hardware! I'd be surprised if X would be usable on that even with blackbox
> wm...

This is a joke right?



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 18:18 on Monday 16 May 2011, Indi did opine
> thusly:
>
>    
>> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 06:10:02PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
>>      
>>> Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my
>>> plan. After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good
>>> kernel, NFS, and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After the
>>> errors disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I
>>> started to wonder where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support
>>> emerging around that time, and more than 3 hours later and time for bed
>>> its hundred&  some packages were still emerging. I woke up hours later
>>> to goto the bathroom and found that done, so set kdm to install. That
>>> hundred plus set of packages is still emerging now, nearly 6 hours
>>> later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz&  512M RAM is on the skimpy side for
>>> installing Gentoo?
>>>        
>> Not to mention there is pretty much no way you'll be using kde on that
>> hardware! I'd be surprised if X would be usable on that even with blackbox
>> wm...
>>      
> This is a joke right?
>
>    

I once ran Gentoo Linux with KDE3 on a 133Mhz machine with 256Mbs of 
ram.  It wasn't fast but it did OK.  A friend used it to play cards on.  
No internet or anything tho.

I did the compiling via chroot on my old rig which had a much faster CPU 
and such.  I just plugged the drive into my rig and did my thing.

It may be slow but it should work.  Make sure you have some swap tho.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 23:15 on Monday 16 May 2011, Dale did opine 
thusly:

> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 18:18 on Monday 16 May 2011, Indi did
> > opine
> > 
> > thusly:
> >> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 06:10:02PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> >>> Actually after the first or 2nd or some subsequent attempt that was my
> >>> plan. After so much time passed (days, not just hours) and I had good
> >>> kernel, NFS, and MC that I didn't see much point delaying KDE. After
> >>> the errors disappeared around 10 last night and I reported same here I
> >>> started to wonder where to go next on a tired brain. I set qt3support
> >>> emerging around that time, and more than 3 hours later and time for
> >>> bed its hundred&  some packages were still emerging. I woke up hours
> >>> later to goto the bathroom and found that done, so set kdm to install.
> >>> That hundred plus set of packages is still emerging now, nearly 6
> >>> hours later. Maybe 32 bit 1667MHz&  512M RAM is on the skimpy side for
> >>> installing Gentoo?
> >> 
> >> Not to mention there is pretty much no way you'll be using kde on that
> >> hardware! I'd be surprised if X would be usable on that even with
> >> blackbox wm...
> > 
> > This is a joke right?
> 
> I once ran Gentoo Linux with KDE3 on a 133Mhz machine with 256Mbs of
> ram.  It wasn't fast but it did OK.  A friend used it to play cards on.
> No internet or anything tho.
> 
> I did the compiling via chroot on my old rig which had a much faster CPU
> and such.  I just plugged the drive into my rig and did my thing.
> 
> It may be slow but it should work.  Make sure you have some swap tho.


I pondered for a long time how to reply to Indi.

I had many posts typed out, most of them rude, all of them classic Alan, but 
something held me back. Lucky it went that way, he later posted he read 
1667MHZ as 167MHz.

Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Mon, 16 May 2011 23:40:32 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> I had many posts typed out, most of them rude, all of them classic
> Alan, but something held me back. Lucky it went that way, he later
> posted he read 1667MHZ as 167MHz.
> 
> Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)

Not nearly as much as a "6" :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WWW: World Wide Wait

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 01:01 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Neil Bothwick 
did opine thusly:

> On Mon, 16 May 2011 23:40:32 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > I had many posts typed out, most of them rude, all of them classic
> > Alan, but something held me back. Lucky it went that way, he later
> > posted he read 1667MHZ as 167MHz.
> > 
> > Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)
> 
> Not nearly as much as a "6" :P


I *really* need to get some sleep and go to bed _right_now_

<sigh>


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Pandu Poluan]

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 06:18, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 01:01 on Tuesday 17 May 2011, Neil Bothwick
> did opine thusly:
>
>> On Mon, 16 May 2011 23:40:32 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> > I had many posts typed out, most of them rude, all of them classic
>> > Alan, but something held me back. Lucky it went that way, he later
>> > posted he read 1667MHZ as 167MHz.
>> >
>> > Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)
>>
>> Not nearly as much as a "6" :P
>
>
> I *really* need to get some sleep and go to bed _right_now_
>
> <sigh>
>
>

I <3 this list :-D

-- 
Pandu E Poluan
~ IT Optimizer ~
Visit my Blog: http://pepoluan.posterous.com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/16 19:01 (GMT-0400) Neil Bothwick composed:

> On Mon, 16 May 2011 23:40:32 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

>>  he read 1667MHZ as 167MHz.

>>  Amazing what a difference a "1" can make :-)

> Not nearly as much as a "6" :P

Sure it can! In 1111101000b, any of those "1"s represents more than 6. Indi 
misread 11010000011b as 10100111b, while "6" is only 110b. :-)
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video) (Fixed!)

[Indi]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 10:10:02PM +0200, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2011 10:57:14 -0400, Indi wrote:
> 
> > > Read the settings for PORTAGE_ELOG in man make.conf.
> 
> > Or as that man page says, 
> > "Please see /usr/share/portage/config/make.conf.example
> > for elog documentation."
> 
> I know that's what the man page currently says, but I expect it will be
> updated to include the actual information long before this thread is
> deleted from all mail archives, so it seemed prudent to point to the man
> page and let the user follow the link :)
> 
> 

Quite right, thanks. :)

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 10:00:03PM +0200, Mick wrote:
> 
> Except when 260+ packages need updating as it happened with the last KDE 
> upgrade.  I had a cursory look, but I missed some USE flag changes (scanner, 
> rdesktop and vnc I think) which started removing packages and libraries.  
> Other flag changes may well have added packages that I didn't need, but didn't 
> have the time to go through the lot at the time.
>

You have a point; my systems are probably far leaner than the average 
desktop user's since I don't really use a full-blown DE and tend to 
use the CLI versions of many things. 
I do like a bit of eyecandy though, as you can see:
http://openbox.org/wiki/Image:Screenshot-dual-ob-20110513a-sm.jpg
:)

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 12:10:01AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 23:09 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > No, I do not propose that one never use global use flags. I just employ
> > them very selectively, which is best for my needs.
> 
> OK. 
> 
> I'll take that as clarifying what you said earlier. Thanks for that.
> 
> 

Sorry, maybe I could have been more clear.

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 08:30:02AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 05:28 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Felix Miata did 
> opine thusly:
> 
> > 
> > Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can emerging
> > one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's unclear to me
> > what "One of the following packages" actually refers to.
> 
> It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that build 
> to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem, they are 
> causing it.
> 
> Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk will 
> link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause gnome to 
> be installed, just gtk+
> 

True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up 
building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
option.
Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such things 
per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for everything.
:)

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 10:37 (GMT-0400) Indi composed:

> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 08:30:02 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

>>  It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that build
>>  to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem, they are
>>  causing it.

>>  Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk will
>>  link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause gnome to
>>  be installed, just gtk+

> True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up
> building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
> option.

> Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such things
> per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for everything.
> :)

Yes, for sure. :-)
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 16:37 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 08:30:02AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 05:28 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Felix
> > Miata did
> > 
> > opine thusly:
> > > Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can
> > > emerging one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's
> > > unclear to me what "One of the following packages" actually refers to.
> > 
> > It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that
> > build to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem,
> > they are causing it.
> > 
> > Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk
> > will link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause
> > gnome to be installed, just gtk+
> 
> True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up
> building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
> option.
> Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such
> things per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for
> everything.
> 
> :) 

No, it is much better to enable such a flag globally and *disable* it using 
package.use where you do *not* want it.

Personally, I have better things to do than examine every new or changed 
package that shows up after avuND world and edit package.us for every single 
flag in that huge list.

If a user has gtk+ installed, the common case is that they will want to use it 
globally due to gnome being present. Or they have a different WM but need gtk 
for something (eg wicd, whose kde interface sucks) and then they might as well 
just build gtk support for everything. It's not that much extra time or 
resources.

There are always exceptions of course. Such as USE=ldap. It's widely used, but 
you might not want it globally enabled as USE=ldap translates to many 
different kinds of support in many different ebuilds (think of all the wildly 
varied things you could do with ldap). Dealing with each case on it's own 
merits in package.use make sense here, it's what I do.

Whereas USE=gtk pretty much always translates to muchly the same thing 
everywhere - build the package so that it's gui uses that toolkit. For most 
folk, globally in make.conf makes sense.

One size fits all does not work with advice on USE flags. The only thing that 
works is this:

Make up your own damn mind. Your stuff is different to my stuff.

;-)



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 05:53:56PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 16:37 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine 
> thusly:
> 
> > 
> > True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up
> > building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
> > option.
> > Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such
> > things per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for
> > everything.
> > 
> > :) 
> 
> No, it is much better to enable such a flag globally and *disable* it using 
> package.use where you do *not* want it.
> 
> Personally, I have better things to do than examine every new or changed 
> package that shows up after avuND world and edit package.us for every single 
> flag in that huge list.
>

Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
What makes the subtractive method better?

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Willie Wong]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 12:01:20PM -0400, Indi wrote:
> Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
> What makes the subtractive method better?
> 

This is how I interpret Alan's message:

For certain flags when you enable it for a package you will have to
also enable it for its dependencies. So you'll have to chase down the
dependency tree if you enable a flag for a user package and several of
the libraries it uses need the flag too, which may end up requiring
doing several emerge --pretend cycles to sort out.

Whereas if you subtract functionality, you usually won't have to
change the libraries. (The corollary being that if you are going to
remove functionality from the libraries, you should do so by globally
removing the use flag, rather than on the package level.)

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 18:01 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine 
thusly:

> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 05:53:56PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 16:37 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did
> > opine
> > 
> > thusly:
> > > True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up
> > > building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
> > > option.
> > > Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such
> > > things per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for
> > > everything.
> > > 
> > > :)
> > 
> > No, it is much better to enable such a flag globally and *disable* it
> > using package.use where you do *not* want it.
> > 
> > Personally, I have better things to do than examine every new or changed
> > package that shows up after avuND world and edit package.us for every
> > single flag in that huge list.
> 
> Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
> What makes the subtractive method better?

It's not subtractive as disabling a flag globally and enabling it when needed 
is the same thing negated.

I'm pointing out that by their nature, most global USE flags are exactly that 
- intended to be global, especially those in use.desc. For the most part the 
user will want the support they provide to be global. When that is not the 
case (the lesser case), an option exists to override the global setting in 
package.use

What you proposed is that one never use global flags and always enable/disable 
them package by package. That gets really tedious with flags used in many 
ebuilds, such as USE=gtk.

Abstaction is good, leverage it to gain the benefits when it works in your 
favour.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Mike Edenfield]

On 5/14/2011 12:01 PM, Indi wrote:
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 05:53:56PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> Apparently, though unproven, at 16:37 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Indi did opine
>> thusly:
>>
>>>
>>> True, just be aware that if you enable gtk *globally* you will end up
>>> building the gtk interface for absolutely everything which has that
>>> option.
>>> Far better (IMO, YMMV) is to use /etc/portage/package.use specify such
>>> things per package. Unless, of course, you like having a gtk GUI for
>>> everything.
>>>
>>> :)
>>
>> No, it is much better to enable such a flag globally and *disable* it using
>> package.use where you do *not* want it.
>>
>> Personally, I have better things to do than examine every new or changed
>> package that shows up after avuND world and edit package.us for every single
>> flag in that huge list.
>>
>
> Sounds like the old "6 of one, a half-dozen of the other" to me...
> What makes the subtractive method better?

Actually its more like the old "use whichever way makes 
sense for the situation." :)

Its mostly a matter of probability. If I'm using a GNOME 
desktop then I probably *do* want the GTK+ for any packages 
that support it; the same argument goes for KDE and Qt. 
Similarly, if my system is on a Windows AD domain, I 
probably want samba, ldap, and kerberos support for any 
utilities that have it.  If I'm using bash completion 
packages, I don't want to worry about which packages 
do/don't have one, I just want them installed. These type of 
flags have essentially the same effect on every package, and 
as Alan said, there's no need to waste time checking if each 
package does or doesn't support GTK individually if you're 
always going to enable it anyway.

OTOH, I probably don't want to set a USE flag like 'extras' 
or 'doc' globally. In those cases I'll turn it on when 
needed. Similarly, USE flags that only applies to one 
package (like "net-print/hplip snmp scanner hpcups 
new-hpcups hpijs") don't make sense globally, so they are 
best left to package.use.

--Mike

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 05:20:01PM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2011/05/14 10:06 (GMT-0400) Willie Wong composed:
> 
> > The above listing shows that phonon will be built with the "vlc" use
> > flag, so clearly you haven't trimmed USE down to "just"
> > bash-completion, ncurses, samba, slang, xattr. In fact, if you had
> > done so you would've also trimmed out cxx, posix, and threads, which
> > would probably not be the best idea.
> 
> The timestamp on my make.conf(.07) file on display at 
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/G/ shows a last written considerably earlier 
> than I last wrote, but ...
> 
> > So for concreteness, can you post the complete USE list, _not_ the
> > list in /etc/make.conf, since that does not show you the USE enabled
> > *by default* on whichever profile you have chosen to use. To get the
> 
> Of this I was totally unaware. So now I know I probably should not have 
> selected the kde profile on first try, but instead selected a minimal and 
> only after being happy with the basics changing to kde.
> 
> Does [1] default/linux/x86/10.0 from 'eselect profile list' amount to a 
> "minimal" install (no X)? If so, is there any reason not to switch to it 
> instead of setting -vlc, and then later when actually ready to enable X, 
> switching back to kde?
> 
> What is the [7] hardened/linux/x86 profile, or better yet, the incantation to 
> get descriptions descriptions of all the available targets?
> 

Use eselect for that, try "eselect profile help" for more info.

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Indi]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 03:10:02AM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:
> Yesterday I attempted my first Gentoo install (11.0). Thanks to help here, I 
> got through my mirrorselect problem. First boot failed. I managed to miss 
> enabling VIA ATA support, so had no access to /. Second kernel build 
> suceeded, even to basic network working. First activity on first boot was 
> 'emerge mc'. That took too long to measure, pulling in 146 packages total, 
> and I had to goto an appointment before it finished (at package 109).
> 
> Along the way to successful boot, I attempted two emerges suggested by the 
> handbook (one being Grub Legacy). Both produced "ERROR: ... (compile 
> phase)..." errors. Today I attempted NFS mounting only to find messages 
> indicating I had neither portmap nor rpcbind running, so tried 'emerge 
> portmap'. This produced similar (compile phase)... line 2140: Called die..." 
> error. So did 'emerge rpcbind'. The way I normally provide logs when asking 
> for help is put them on my file/web server via NFS, hence the chicken & egg 
> subject line.
>

Maybe a stupid question, but have you tried run emerge --sync and emerge
-vauND world yet since installing? 

> Another problem, highly annoying, is both vga= and video= cmdline parameters 
> are apparently being ignored. KMS seems married to the Trinitron's 
> PreferredMode (1600x1200), which produces mousetype on the ttys, and needs to 
> be fixed before I'll be able to accomplish much without pain trying to see 
> what I'm doing. My tty PreferredMode is 1152x864, which works with openSUSE 
> KMS kernels by setting video=1152x864 on cmdline.
> 
> Any suggestions? Are such things in a FAQ somewhere? Do I need an older or 
> newer portage than Wednesday's? The Handbook stops at Finalizing, where these 
> questions aren't covered.

Do you have your video card specified in make.conf?
Should be somthing like:

VIDEO_CARDS="radeon"

-- 
caveat utilitor 
♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ ❤ ♫ 

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alex Schuster]

Indi writes:

> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 03:10:02AM +0200, Felix Miata wrote:

>> Along the way to successful boot, I attempted two emerges suggested by the 
>> handbook (one being Grub Legacy). Both produced "ERROR: ... (compile 
>> phase)..." errors. 

If you like, post the messages here. Be sure to include enough of the
log, from the first error message on.

>> Today I attempted NFS mounting only to find messages 
>> indicating I had neither portmap nor rpcbind running, so tried 'emerge 
>> portmap'. This produced similar (compile phase)... line 2140: Called die..." 
>> error. So did 'emerge rpcbind'. The way I normally provide logs when asking 
>> for help is put them on my file/web server via NFS, hence the chicken & egg 
>> subject line.

Have you emerged nfs-utils? Is /etc/init.d/nfs running? This should take
care of everything I think.

> Maybe a stupid question, but have you tried run emerge --sync and emerge
> -vauND world yet since installing? 
> 
>> Another problem, highly annoying, is both vga= and video= cmdline parameters 
>> are apparently being ignored. KMS seems married to the Trinitron's 
>> PreferredMode (1600x1200), which produces mousetype on the ttys, and needs to 
>> be fixed before I'll be able to accomplish much without pain trying to see 
>> what I'm doing. My tty PreferredMode is 1152x864, which works with openSUSE 
>> KMS kernels by setting video=1152x864 on cmdline.

I just switched to KMS mode, and was happy that without doing anything I
had the natural resolution of my display. Don't know how to change this
though. Does kernel command line parameter "vga=ask" still work maybe?

>> Any suggestions? Are such things in a FAQ somewhere? Do I need an older or 
>> newer portage than Wednesday's? The Handbook stops at Finalizing, where these 
>> questions aren't covered.

There are several more howtos on gentoo.org, but I don't know if NFS and
console display are covered.

> Do you have your video card specified in make.conf?
> Should be somthing like:
> 
> VIDEO_CARDS="radeon"

I think that's for X-related stuff only.

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 05:19 (GMT+0200) Alex Schuster composed:

> Indi writes:

>>  Felix Miata wrote:

>>>  Along the way to successful boot, I attempted two emerges suggested by the
>>>  handbook (one being Grub Legacy). Both produced "ERROR: ... (compile
>>>  phase)..." errors.

> If you like, post the messages here. Be sure to include enough of the
> log, from the first error message on.

Still the same problem, needing to get the log off the system onto the server 
or into an email without working NFS or rebooting to something with working NFS.

So, I've booted into SUSE. Logs for 6 failed emerges are in 
http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/G/

I'm chrooted into Gentoo for now to try and fix whatever's broken, and get to 
use legible tty fonts that way in the mean time, e.g. while rebuilding kernel 
with proper tty video selections, and ext4 instead of ext3.

> Have you emerged nfs-utils? Is /etc/init.d/nfs running? This should take
> care of everything I think.

# emerge nfs-utils

produces errors for dev-libs/libevent-2.0.10 twice.

>>  Maybe a stupid question, but have you tried run emerge --sync and emerge
>>  -vauND world yet since installing?

>>>  Another problem, highly annoying, is both vga= and video= cmdline parameters
>>>  are apparently being ignored. KMS seems married to the Trinitron's
>>>  PreferredMode (1600x1200), which produces mousetype on the ttys, and needs to
>>>  be fixed before I'll be able to accomplish much without pain trying to see
>>>  what I'm doing. My tty PreferredMode is 1152x864, which works with openSUSE
>>>  KMS kernels by setting video=1152x864 on cmdline.

Never solved the above in Fedora either. It's the same problem here. 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=701190

> I just switched to KMS mode, and was happy that without doing anything I
> had the natural resolution of my display. Don't know how to change this

Natural resolution is fine in X, because I can force DPI and tweak fonts 
easily. In ttys the only way that ever worked easily was via vga=, which 
doesn't work with KMS.

> though. Does kernel command line parameter "vga=ask" still work maybe?

It does produce a modes list as before, but whatever is selected is ignored 
unless using a video chip that lacks KMS support, like mga or r128.

> There are several more howtos on gentoo.org, but I don't know if NFS and
> console display are covered.

I'll look while the kernel is recompiling.

>>  VIDEO_CARDS="radeon"

> I think that's for X-related stuff only.

Related question: Is there any way to get BIOS setting for NUMLOCK state to 
be obeyed? emerge can't find a setleds or numlock package except as relates 
to X. Both Mandriva & openSUSE obey BIOS NUM state automatically.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/13 22:35 (GMT-0400) Indi composed:

> Maybe a stupid question, but have you tried run emerge --sync

.bash_history tells me I did this twice prior to your response...

> and emerge -vauND world yet since installing?

...but not this. Doing so now produces something that is not obvious to me 
how to respond to:

<begin screen output>
These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!

emerge: there are no ebuilds built with USE flags to satisfy 
">=media-libs/libcanberra-0.4[gtk]".
!!! One of the following packages is required to complete your request:
- media-libs/libcanberra-0.26 (Change USE: +gtk)
(dependency required by "x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "virtual/notification-daemon-0[gnome]" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "x11-libs/libnotify-0.7.2" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "media-video/vlc-1.1.9[libnotify]" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.3.2" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-4.5.0[vlc]" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "kde-base/kdelibs-4.6.2-r3" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "kde-misc/polkit-kde-kcmodules-0.98_pre20101127" 
[ebuild])
<end screen output>

Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can emerging 
one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's unclear to me what 
"One of the following packages" actually refers to.

>Do you have your video card specified in make.conf?
>Should be somthing like:

> VIDEO_CARDS="radeon"

I hadn't seen anything about VIDEO_CARDS until your response. Most of my 
systems are mga, intel or radeon, but this particular one is NV. Finding the 
answer to which of three possibles are the correct response led me to 
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xorg-config.xml which I hadn't seen before. Now 
that I have I think I need to recompile due to misconfiguring of Graphics 
support.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 05:28 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Felix Miata did 
opine thusly:

> On 2011/05/13 22:35 (GMT-0400) Indi composed:
> > Maybe a stupid question, but have you tried run emerge --sync
> 
> .bash_history tells me I did this twice prior to your response...
> 
> > and emerge -vauND world yet since installing?
> 
> ...but not this. Doing so now produces something that is not obvious to me
> how to respond to:
> 
> <begin screen output>
> These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
> 
> Calculating dependencies... done!
> 
> emerge: there are no ebuilds built with USE flags to satisfy
> ">=media-libs/libcanberra-0.4[gtk]".
> !!! One of the following packages is required to complete your request:
> - media-libs/libcanberra-0.26 (Change USE: +gtk)
> (dependency required by "x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0" [ebuild])
> (dependency required by "virtual/notification-daemon-0[gnome]" [ebuild])
> (dependency required by "x11-libs/libnotify-0.7.2" [ebuild])
> (dependency required by "media-video/vlc-1.1.9[libnotify]" [ebuild])
> (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.3.2" [ebuild])
> (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-4.5.0[vlc]" [ebuild])
> (dependency required by "kde-base/kdelibs-4.6.2-r3" [ebuild])
> (dependency required by "kde-misc/polkit-kde-kcmodules-0.98_pre20101127"
> [ebuild])
> <end screen output>
> 
> Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can emerging
> one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's unclear to me
> what "One of the following packages" actually refers to.

It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that build 
to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem, they are 
causing it.

Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk will 
link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause gnome to 
be installed, just gtk+


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 08:25 (GMT+0200) Alan McKinnon composed:

> Felix Miata composed:

>>  emerge: there are no ebuilds built with USE flags to satisfy
>>  ">=media-libs/libcanberra-0.4[gtk]".
>>  !!! One of the following packages is required to complete your request:
>>  - media-libs/libcanberra-0.26 (Change USE: +gtk)
>>  (dependency required by "x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "virtual/notification-daemon-0[gnome]" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "x11-libs/libnotify-0.7.2" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "media-video/vlc-1.1.9[libnotify]" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.3.2" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-4.5.0[vlc]" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "kde-base/kdelibs-4.6.2-r3" [ebuild])
>>  (dependency required by "kde-misc/polkit-kde-kcmodules-0.98_pre20101127"
>>  [ebuild])
>>  <end screen output>

>>  Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can emerging
>>  one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's unclear to me
>>  what "One of the following packages" actually refers to.

> It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that build
> to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem, they are
> causing it.

That's what I was afraid of, a "list" of one followed by a genuine list. :-(

> Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk will
> link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause gnome to
> be installed, just gtk+

Maybe someone can humor me and not go with the "easiest" route. Let's assume 
I could live without any Mozilla products or Gimp, and want a system free not 
just of Gnome but also of GTK. Let's say I'm deaf, and no speakers will ever 
be attached to the system, which has an onboard sound chip rather than a PCI 
sound card I could simply remove. What would it take to eliminate this 
apparent KDE dependence on GTK (and sound support)? How "portable" is a sound 
event library that makes KDE depend on GTK? For now, I've cut USE down to 
only "bash-completion ncurses samba slang xattr", but it hasn't helped me to 
get everything I need to work outside of X. Until I have working NFS and NUM 
state obeying the BIOS, I have little interest in what's required to make X 
functional, and no interest in audible notifications.

BTW, my 3rd kernel did solve my video on ttys problem, and get me access to 
my EXT2 partition. :-)
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 11:38 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Felix Miata did 
opine thusly:

> On 2011/05/14 08:25 (GMT+0200) Alan McKinnon composed:
> > Felix Miata composed:
> >>  emerge: there are no ebuilds built with USE flags to satisfy
> >>  ">=media-libs/libcanberra-0.4[gtk]".
> >>  !!! One of the following packages is required to complete your request:
> >>  - media-libs/libcanberra-0.26 (Change USE: +gtk)
> >>  (dependency required by "x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by "virtual/notification-daemon-0[gnome]"
> >>  [ebuild]) (dependency required by "x11-libs/libnotify-0.7.2" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by "media-video/vlc-1.1.9[libnotify]" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.3.2" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-4.5.0[vlc]" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by "kde-base/kdelibs-4.6.2-r3" [ebuild])
> >>  (dependency required by
> >>  "kde-misc/polkit-kde-kcmodules-0.98_pre20101127" [ebuild])
> >>  <end screen output>
> >>  
> >>  Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can
> >>  emerging one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's
> >>  unclear to me what "One of the following packages" actually refers to.
> > 
> > It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that
> > build to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem,
> > they are causing it.
> 
> That's what I was afraid of, a "list" of one followed by a genuine list.
> :-(

What's hard about it?

You have a failed dependency. The next logical question to ask is "what is the 
dependency? What other package requires this package?"

The only way to answer that is to list them all recursively, all the way back 
to the root of the tree. 

In this case you need libcanberra built with USE=gtk
That depends on x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0
Pulled in by virtual/notification-daemon-0 built with USE=gnome

and so on and so on. It's a simple graph actually.

> 
> > Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk
> > will link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause
> > gnome to be installed, just gtk+
> 
> Maybe someone can humor me and not go with the "easiest" route. Let's
> assume I could live without any Mozilla products or Gimp, and want a
> system free not just of Gnome but also of GTK. Let's say I'm deaf, and no
> speakers will ever be attached to the system, which has an onboard sound
> chip rather than a PCI sound card I could simply remove. What would it
> take to eliminate this apparent KDE dependence on GTK (and sound support)?
> How "portable" is a sound event library that makes KDE depend on GTK? For
> now, I've cut USE down to only "bash-completion ncurses samba slang
> xattr", but it hasn't helped me to get everything I need to work outside
> of X. Until I have working NFS and NUM state obeying the BIOS, I have
> little interest in what's required to make X functional, and no interest
> in audible notifications.

First of all, I don't know what you want. Only you know what you want.

KDE does not depend on GTK here. Reading the above list from the bottom up:

You want KDE, so you get kdelibs. That gives you phonon with vlc support. vlc 
(not a KDE package) is configured to use libnotify, which is a gnome package 
and needs notification-daemon. THAT requires gtk.


Lets back up a bit. With something like Ubuntu, someone (the package 
maintainer) went through a insanely gigantic amount of ball-ache to figure out 
the dependencies and switch stuff on and off so that you never have to deal 
with this. The downside is that you get whatever the maintainer felt you 
should have.

gentoo is different - you are in complete control. This means that you have to 
go through the insanely gigantic ball-ache work yourself. The ebuilds help 
somewhat with USE flags, so with "USE=-gnome -gtk" you could disable all 
optional gnome and gtk dependencies. Sometimes you get a hard dependency that 
isn't optional, in that case you are SOL and must make a decision whether to 
have gnome or not. Either way, you get to choose, and you also get to have to 
think long and hard first.

Back to your list.

The little fucker that is causing your issue is vlc support and libnotify.

Do you want these? Define what you want exactly, and enable or disable USE 
flags to suit your choices.

Do keep in mind that I can't tell you what to do because you haven't really 
defined what you want yet. I could tell you to add 
"-gnome -gtk -vlc -libnotify" 
to USE in /etc/make.conf and that would certainly obliterate gnome for sure. 
But it might also be overreaching.






> 
> BTW, my 3rd kernel did solve my video on ttys problem, and get me access to
> my EXT2 partition. :-)

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Mick]

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On Saturday 14 May 2011 11:21:51 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 11:38 on Saturday 14 May 2011, Felix Miata
> did
> 
> opine thusly:
> > On 2011/05/14 08:25 (GMT+0200) Alan McKinnon composed:
> > > Felix Miata composed:
 
> > >>  Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can
> > >>  emerging one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's
> > >>  unclear to me what "One of the following packages" actually refers
> > >>  to.
> > > 
> > > It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that
> > > build to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem,
> > > they are causing it.
[snip... wise advice from Alan ...]

> Do keep in mind that I can't tell you what to do because you haven't really
> defined what you want yet. I could tell you to add
> "-gnome -gtk -vlc -libnotify"
> to USE in /etc/make.conf and that would certainly obliterate gnome for
> sure. But it might also be overreaching.

If you want libcanberra and therefore you must have USE="gtk", but you do not 
want to have any other packages compiled with the gtk USE flag, you can define 
it only for the package in question by adding a line in 
/etc/portage/package.use like so:

media-libs/libcanberra gtk -oss

to e.g. enable the gtk and disable the oss flags.

To see whether a flag has been set or not and relevant information about it, 
run:

euse -i <flag>

For libcanberra it shows:

[- cD ] gtk (media-libs/libcanberra):
Enables building of gtk+ helper library, gtk+ runtime sound effects and the 
canberra-gtk-play utility. To enable the gtk+ sound effects add canberra-gtk-
module to the colon separated list of modules in the GTK_MODULES environment 
variable.

Use option -I to see which packages have been installed using a particular 
flag.  Have a look in man euse to decipher the symbols.


To see all the flags for a particular package after it has been installed run:

equery uses libcanberra
[ Searching for packages matching libcanberra... ]
[ Colour Code : set unset ]
[ Legend : Left column  (U) - USE flags from make.conf              ]
[        : Right column (I) - USE flags packages was installed with ]
[ Found these USE variables for media-libs/libcanberra-0.26 ]
 U I
 + + alsa       : Adds support for media-libs/alsa-lib (Advanced Linux Sound 
Architecture)
 - - gstreamer  : Adds support for media-libs/gstreamer (Streaming media)
 + + gtk        : Adds support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit)
 - - oss        : Adds support for OSS (Open Sound System)
 - - pulseaudio : Adds support for PulseAudio sound server
 - + sound      : Enable sound support
 - - tdb        : Enables Trivial Database support for caching purposes.


You can also check flags and (r)dependencies on line:

http://gentoo-portage.com/Browse


> > BTW, my 3rd kernel did solve my video on ttys problem, and get me access
> > to my EXT2 partition. :-)

Have you read and applied http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xorg-config.xml to find 
out how to configure your card and xorg?
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 12:52 (GMT+0100) Mick composed:

>>  >  BTW, my 3rd kernel did solve my video on ttys problem, and get me access
>>  >  to my EXT2 partition. :-)

> Have you read and applied http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xorg-config.xml to find
> out how to configure your card and xorg?

Reading section 2.2 there is how I realized what it was that I had 
misconfigured previously to cause my video on ttys problem. ;-)

My #1 problem to solve is NFS not working yet (nfs-utils aka libevent, 
portmap, rpc emerge failures), but it would also be very nice to get Grub to 
emerge. Logs: http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/G/
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 09:20 (GMT-0400) Felix Miata composed:

> My #1 problem to solve is NFS not working yet (nfs-utils aka libevent,
> portmap, rpc emerge failures), but it would also be very nice to get Grub to
> emerge. Logs: http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/G/

Now as noted in the econf failed thread I've succeeded in emerging nfs-utils 
and grub, but neither work right.

I have two Gentoo stanzas in my primary bootloader, one to load the kernel, 
another to chainload Gentoo's Grub. Loading the kernel works, but chainload 
gives error 13 invalid executable format. I named the bzImage copied to /boot 
"kernel-2.6.37-r4f", and symlinked it a vmlinuz. vmlinuz is the name I use in 
the Grub stanzas. Is Gentoo's Grub expecting the kernel to have a particular 
name, and I picked a wrong one? Or maybe what it doesn't like is that I 
uncommented splashimage=(hd0,6)/boot/grub/splash.xpm.gz in menu.lst?

The errors from NFS are different than I originally encountered, and indicate 
that neither portmap nor rpcbind are running. Which of the two did nfs-utils 
actually install (or both?), and what exactly is its name I need to use with 
rc-update or start one or the other manually to get my server's exports 
mounted locally?
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Willie Wong]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 05:38:04AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> >Felix Miata composed:
> 
> >> emerge: there are no ebuilds built with USE flags to satisfy
> >> ">=media-libs/libcanberra-0.4[gtk]".
> >> !!! One of the following packages is required to complete your request:
> >> - media-libs/libcanberra-0.26 (Change USE: +gtk)
> >> (dependency required by "x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0" [ebuild])
> >> (dependency required by "virtual/notification-daemon-0[gnome]" [ebuild])
> >> (dependency required by "x11-libs/libnotify-0.7.2" [ebuild])
> >> (dependency required by "media-video/vlc-1.1.9[libnotify]" [ebuild])
> >> (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-vlc-0.3.2" [ebuild])
> >> (dependency required by "media-libs/phonon-4.5.0[vlc]" [ebuild])
> >> (dependency required by "kde-base/kdelibs-4.6.2-r3" [ebuild])
> >> (dependency required by "kde-misc/polkit-kde-kcmodules-0.98_pre20101127"
> >> [ebuild])
> >> <end screen output>
> 
> >> Is it telling me I have to change my USE from -gtk to +gtk, or can emerging
> >> one of those 8 packages listed satisfy the dep? IOW, it's unclear to me
> >> what "One of the following packages" actually refers to.
> 
> >It's telling you that you must enable USE=gtk for libcanberra for that build
> >to succeed. The chain of packages listed won't solve the problem, they are
> >causing it.
> 
> That's what I was afraid of, a "list" of one followed by a genuine list. :-(
> 
> >Easiest is to list gtk in USE in make.conf, then everything that uses gtk will
> >link against it. If you are worried about Gnome, this wil not cause gnome to
> >be installed, just gtk+
> 
> Maybe someone can humor me and not go with the "easiest" route.
> Let's assume I could live without any Mozilla products or Gimp, and
> want a system free not just of Gnome but also of GTK. Let's say I'm
> deaf, and no speakers will ever be attached to the system, which has
> an onboard sound chip rather than a PCI sound card I could simply
> remove. What would it take to eliminate this apparent KDE dependence
> on GTK (and sound support)? How "portable" is a sound event library
> that makes KDE depend on GTK? For now, I've cut USE down to only
> "bash-completion ncurses samba slang xattr", but it hasn't helped me
> to get everything I need to work outside of X. 

The above listing shows that phonon will be built with the "vlc" use
flag, so clearly you haven't trimmed USE down to "just"
bash-completion, ncurses, samba, slang, xattr. In fact, if you had
done so you would've also trimmed out cxx, posix, and threads, which
would probably not be the best idea. 

So for concreteness, can you post the complete USE list, _not_ the
list in /etc/make.conf, since that does not show you the USE enabled
*by default* on whichever profile you have chosen to use. To get the
list of all USE flags, try 
  emerge --info

In this particular case, you can consider adding "-vlc" to your USE
and try again. 

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/14 10:06 (GMT-0400) Willie Wong composed:

> The above listing shows that phonon will be built with the "vlc" use
> flag, so clearly you haven't trimmed USE down to "just"
> bash-completion, ncurses, samba, slang, xattr. In fact, if you had
> done so you would've also trimmed out cxx, posix, and threads, which
> would probably not be the best idea.

The timestamp on my make.conf(.07) file on display at 
http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/G/ shows a last written considerably earlier 
than I last wrote, but ...

> So for concreteness, can you post the complete USE list, _not_ the
> list in /etc/make.conf, since that does not show you the USE enabled
> *by default* on whichever profile you have chosen to use. To get the

Of this I was totally unaware. So now I know I probably should not have 
selected the kde profile on first try, but instead selected a minimal and 
only after being happy with the basics changing to kde.

Does [1] default/linux/x86/10.0 from 'eselect profile list' amount to a 
"minimal" install (no X)? If so, is there any reason not to switch to it 
instead of setting -vlc, and then later when actually ready to enable X, 
switching back to kde?

What is the [7] hardened/linux/x86 profile, or better yet, the incantation to 
get descriptions descriptions of all the available targets?

> list of all USE flags, try
>    emerge --info

About 1.6 screens full, including what looks like a bazillion things in USE=. 
It looks like USE= ends with zlib, and then until the appearance of Unset:, 
everything in between is appended without any newlines, among them, 
PHP_TARGETS, GPSD_PROTOCOLS & APACHE2. Yikes! 
http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/G/emergeinfo1.txt

> In this particular case, you can consider adding "-vlc" to your USE
> and try again.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Willie Wong]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 11:07:33AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> Does [1] default/linux/x86/10.0 from 'eselect profile list' amount
> to a "minimal" install (no X)? If so, is there any reason not to
> switch to it instead of setting -vlc, and then later when actually
> ready to enable X, switching back to kde?

There's no big harm, except that you may end up rebuilding a bunch of
packages. One way to get a lot of hands-on control on precisely what
USE you want it via the "-*" flag. But be VERY careful if you are
going to use it. A USE variable set in /etc/make.conf starting with it

  USE="-* X vim ..."

will use nothing but those variables (plus the package specific ones
specified in /etc/portage). There are certain flags that you most
likely don't want to turn off: cxx, posix, and threads for example. 

It is a powerful tool; which means you can also seriously hurt
yourself from it. 

Note that the profiles are not "only if" things. You can still run
the KDE desktop without being on the KDE profile. You should think of
the profile as a default bundle that the developers think you may like
if you want to use KDE. You can of course completely customise it just
from the default/linux/x86/10.0 profile. So if you start your system
on this profile, and build it up to your liking, there's no need to
switch over to the KDE profile. 

> 
> What is the [7] hardened/linux/x86 profile, or better yet, the
> incantation to get descriptions descriptions of all the available
> targets?

hardened is maintained by the gentoo hardened project
  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/

If this is a desktop you probably don't want to use it. And SELinux
you can just google to find out. 

W

-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[William Hubbs]

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On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 11:36:29AM -0400, Willie Wong wrote:
> There's no big harm, except that you may end up rebuilding a bunch of
> packages. One way to get a lot of hands-on control on precisely what
> USE you want it via the "-*" flag. But be VERY careful if you are
> going to use it. A USE variable set in /etc/make.conf starting with it
> 
>   USE="-* X vim ..."
> 
> will use nothing but those variables (plus the package specific ones
> specified in /etc/portage). There are certain flags that you most
> likely don't want to turn off: cxx, posix, and threads for example. 
> 
> It is a powerful tool; which means you can also seriously hurt
> yourself from it. 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS.

It turns off all use flags set in profiles as well as use flag defaults
set in ebuilds.

The safer way, and the way I would recommend, is to use something like
euse from gentoolkit to figure out which flags are on and turn off the
ones you do not want in make.conf instead of turning off everything and
trying to turn back on the ones you do want.

William


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Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 23:21 on Saturday 14 May 2011, William Hubbs 
did opine thusly:

> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 11:36:29AM -0400, Willie Wong wrote:
> > There's no big harm, except that you may end up rebuilding a bunch of
> > packages. One way to get a lot of hands-on control on precisely what
> > USE you want it via the "-*" flag. But be VERY careful if you are
> > going to use it. A USE variable set in /etc/make.conf starting with it
> > 
> >   USE="-* X vim ..."
> > 
> > will use nothing but those variables (plus the package specific ones
> > specified in /etc/portage). There are certain flags that you most
> > likely don't want to turn off: cxx, posix, and threads for example.
> > 
> > It is a powerful tool; which means you can also seriously hurt
> > yourself from it.
> 
> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS.
> 
> It turns off all use flags set in profiles as well as use flag defaults
> set in ebuilds.
> 
> The safer way, and the way I would recommend, is to use something like
> euse from gentoolkit to figure out which flags are on and turn off the
> ones you do not want in make.conf instead of turning off everything and
> trying to turn back on the ones you do want.


Agreed.

"emerge --info | grep USE" reveals what an enormous task it is to fix USE=-*. 
Not only an enormous task but a fruitless one too - most of the flags will 
just get re-enabled!

Most people advocating this on list threads and forums, want a minimal system 
without all the KDE/Gnome/etc bloat. The correct way to do that is to use a 
minimal profile then examine the now much smaller emerge --info and disabled 
the few remiaining USE flags one does not want.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Mick]

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On Saturday 14 May 2011 16:07:33 Felix Miata wrote:

> Does [1] default/linux/x86/10.0 from 'eselect profile list' amount to a
> "minimal" install (no X)? If so, is there any reason not to switch to it
> instead of setting -vlc, and then later when actually ready to enable X,
> switching back to kde?

If you want the full KDE then select the kde desktop profile.  If you instead 
want a slimmer, generic desktop you can consider:

$ ls -la /etc/make.profile
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 56 Dec 16 15:00 /etc/make.profile -> 
../usr/portage/profiles/default/linux/amd64/10.0/desktop

This is what I use and the vlc USE flag is not set by it as a default:

$ euse -i vlc
global use flags (searching: vlc)
************************************************************
no matching entries found

local use flags (searching: vlc)
************************************************************
[-    ] vlc (media-libs/phonon):
Install VLC Phonon backend


> What is the [7] hardened/linux/x86 profile, or better yet, the incantation
> to get descriptions descriptions of all the available targets?

Have a look under /usr/portage/profiles/targets/*

You want to look at the make.default files in there for each respective 
profile.

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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[gentoo-user] chicken <--> egg (NFS & tty video)

[Felix Miata]

Yesterday I attempted my first Gentoo install (11.0). Thanks to help here, I 
got through my mirrorselect problem. First boot failed. I managed to miss 
enabling VIA ATA support, so had no access to /. Second kernel build 
suceeded, even to basic network working. First activity on first boot was 
'emerge mc'. That took too long to measure, pulling in 146 packages total, 
and I had to goto an appointment before it finished (at package 109).

Along the way to successful boot, I attempted two emerges suggested by the 
handbook (one being Grub Legacy). Both produced "ERROR: ... (compile 
phase)..." errors. Today I attempted NFS mounting only to find messages 
indicating I had neither portmap nor rpcbind running, so tried 'emerge 
portmap'. This produced similar (compile phase)... line 2140: Called die..." 
error. So did 'emerge rpcbind'. The way I normally provide logs when asking 
for help is put them on my file/web server via NFS, hence the chicken & egg 
subject line.

Another problem, highly annoying, is both vga= and video= cmdline parameters 
are apparently being ignored. KMS seems married to the Trinitron's 
PreferredMode (1600x1200), which produces mousetype on the ttys, and needs to 
be fixed before I'll be able to accomplish much without pain trying to see 
what I'm doing. My tty PreferredMode is 1152x864, which works with openSUSE 
KMS kernels by setting video=1152x864 on cmdline.

Any suggestions? Are such things in a FAQ somewhere? Do I need an older or 
newer portage than Wednesday's? The Handbook stops at Finalizing, where these 
questions aren't covered.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/