[gentoo-user] How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[gentoo-user] How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

Can anybody point me to a hint on how to configure synaptics touchapad
sensitivity?

The touchpad on my Thinkpad T500 is so sensitive you don't even have
to touch it. Merely bringing a thumb or finger within 1/8 - 1/4 inch
will cause the cursor to twitch spasmodically for a second and then
jump to the lower left corner of the screen.  Once you have a finger
on the touchpad, it seems to work OK.

I've figured out how to disable it temporarily using the "xinput"
command, but I would like to actually get it working right.

All the docs I can find seem to assume two things:

 1) an xorg.conf file

 2) the xf86-input-synpatics driver

I'm using neither.

I decided finally to give in and let Xorg use HAL like it wants to by
default when you do a Gentoo install.

What a huge mistake.  I really, really hate HAL.  With xorg.conf, all
the settings were in one file, in an easy to read, easy to edit
format. Now with HAL, they're scattered over several files.  And to
make sure you can't edit or read them, they're in XML.  I have no idea
what "problem" HAL is supposed to be solving, but it apprently wasn't
a problem I ever had -- AFAICT HAL is nothing but pain.

-- 
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> Can anybody point me to a hint on how to configure synaptics touchapad
> sensitivity?
>
> The touchpad on my Thinkpad T500 is so sensitive you don't even have
> to touch it. Merely bringing a thumb or finger within 1/8 - 1/4 inch
> will cause the cursor to twitch spasmodically for a second and then
> jump to the lower left corner of the screen.  Once you have a finger
> on the touchpad, it seems to work OK.
>
> I've figured out how to disable it temporarily using the "xinput"
> command, but I would like to actually get it working right.
>
> All the docs I can find seem to assume two things:
>
>   1) an xorg.conf file
>
>   2) the xf86-input-synpatics driver
>
> I'm using neither.
>
> I decided finally to give in and let Xorg use HAL like it wants to by
> default when you do a Gentoo install.
>
> What a huge mistake.  I really, really hate HAL.  With xorg.conf, all
> the settings were in one file, in an easy to read, easy to edit
> format. Now with HAL, they're scattered over several files.  And to
> make sure you can't edit or read them, they're in XML.  I have no idea
> what "problem" HAL is supposed to be solving, but it apprently wasn't
> a problem I ever had -- AFAICT HAL is nothing but pain.
>
>    

You must be fairly new here.  I realized the same thing a while back and 
trust me, I posted it here so everyone else would know that it isn't 
easy to work with.  It either works out of the box or you are in a huge 
mess.

Before you go to great pains to get this working, you do know that hal 
is checking out right?  Even the person who wrote it realized the mess 
it was and it is dying pretty soon.  I think it is policykit or polkit 
or something to that effect.  If you want to start using that instead, 
it may save you some headaches later on when it is no longer a option.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Mick]

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On Sunday 14 November 2010 02:37:57 Dale wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
> > Can anybody point me to a hint on how to configure synaptics touchapad
> > sensitivity?
> > 
> > The touchpad on my Thinkpad T500 is so sensitive you don't even have
> > to touch it. Merely bringing a thumb or finger within 1/8 - 1/4 inch
> > will cause the cursor to twitch spasmodically for a second and then
> > jump to the lower left corner of the screen.  Once you have a finger
> > on the touchpad, it seems to work OK.
> > 
> > I've figured out how to disable it temporarily using the "xinput"
> > command, but I would like to actually get it working right.
> > 
> > All the docs I can find seem to assume two things:
> >   1) an xorg.conf file
> >   
> >   2) the xf86-input-synpatics driver
> > 
> > I'm using neither.
> > 
> > I decided finally to give in and let Xorg use HAL like it wants to by
> > default when you do a Gentoo install.
> > 
> > What a huge mistake.  I really, really hate HAL.  With xorg.conf, all
> > the settings were in one file, in an easy to read, easy to edit
> > format. Now with HAL, they're scattered over several files.  And to
> > make sure you can't edit or read them, they're in XML.  I have no idea
> > what "problem" HAL is supposed to be solving, but it apprently wasn't
> > a problem I ever had -- AFAICT HAL is nothing but pain.
> 
> You must be fairly new here.  I realized the same thing a while back and
> trust me, I posted it here so everyone else would know that it isn't
> easy to work with.  It either works out of the box or you are in a huge
> mess.
> 
> Before you go to great pains to get this working, you do know that hal
> is checking out right?  Even the person who wrote it realized the mess
> it was and it is dying pretty soon.  I think it is policykit or polkit
> or something to that effect.  If you want to start using that instead,
> it may save you some headaches later on when it is no longer a option.

As Dale suggests don't waste your time on hal and its fdi files.  xorg 1.8.x 
will be going stable soon and that does away with hal configuration.  I 
recommend that you unmask it and see if you can control your touchpad easier 
using an xorg.conf and evdev.  However, the synaptics driver is there for a 
reason ...

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.8-upgrade-guide.xml

BTW, if you want to remain with xorg 1.7.x then I recommend you try the 
following:

1. Add synaptics to your INPUT_DEVICES in /etc/make.conf - most often than not 
it will just work™ and no further adjustment of sensitivity is necessary.

2. Then run lshal to see if your touchpad is recognised.  In my laptop (I use 
hal) it shows this:
==================================================
udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/pci_8086_d132'
  info.parent = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer'  (string)
  info.product = 'Core Processor DMI'  (string)
  info.category = 'input'  (string)
  info.parent = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX_port'  
(string)
  info.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
  info.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
  info.udi = 
'/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX_port_logicaldev_input'  
(string)
  input.device = '/dev/input/event6'  (string)
  input.originating_device = 
'/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX_port'  (string)
  input.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
  input.x11_driver = 'synaptics'  (string)
  input.x11_options.ClickButton1 = '1'  (string)
  input.x11_options.HorizEdgeScroll = 'true'  (string)
  input.x11_options.MaxTapMove = '2000'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TapButton1 = '1'  (string)
  input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll = 'true'  (string)
  linux.device_file = '/dev/input/event6'  (string)
  linux.hotplug_type = 2  (0x2)  (int)
  linux.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
  linux.sysfs_path = '/sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio1/input/input6/event6'  
(string)
==================================================

In the info section above it tells me that touchpad is recognised.  Looking 
into /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/11-x11-synaptics.fdi I see that by 
installing the synaptics driver a hal configuration file was created.

Copy this to /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi (you can call it 
something different if you wish) and add an option line to adjust sensitivity:

<merge key="input.x11_options.PressureMotionMinZ" type="integer">25</merge>

Play with different integer values to see what works and also look at the 
synaptics man page for different options, in case PressureMotionMin is not 
what you need.  Each time you make a change you should restart hal or the 
xserver to see the result.

3. Without synaptics a lot depends on what the evdev or mouse drivers can do - 
they may not have pressure related options to play with.  Again I would start 
with their man pages and follow the example above, as long as lshal shows 
which driver has captured the touchpad events.

HTH.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

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On 2010-11-14, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Before you go to great pains to get this working, you do know that hal
>> is checking out right?

Yes, I knew that.  Maybe I'll just live without the touchpad until HAL
goes away for good.

My question is why did the Gentoo maintainers decide to use HAL
instead of xorg.conf?

>> Even the person who wrote it realized the mess it was and it is dying
>> pretty soon.  I think it is policykit or polkit or something to that
>> effect.  If you want to start using that instead, it may save you
>> some headaches later on when it is no longer a option.
>
> As Dale suggests don't waste your time on hal and its fdi files. 
> xorg 1.8.x will be going stable soon and that does away with hal
> configuration.  I recommend that you unmask it and see if you can
> control your touchpad easier using an xorg.conf and evdev.  However,
> the synaptics driver is there for a reason ...
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.8-upgrade-guide.xml
>
> BTW, if you want to remain with xorg 1.7.x then I recommend you try the 
> following:
>
> 1. Add synaptics to your INPUT_DEVICES in /etc/make.conf - most often
>    than not it will just work™ and no further adjustment of
>    sensitivity is necessary.

I did that, but the synaptics driver doesn't get used by default. Once
you've installed it, how do you get the server to use it? I think I
should abandon HAL and switch to xorg.conf.  It's so much easier to
use.

> 2. Then run lshal to see if your touchpad is recognised.  In my
>    laptop (I use hal) it shows this:
>
>==================================================
> udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/pci_8086_d132'
>   info.parent = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer'  (string)
>   info.product = 'Core Processor DMI'  (string)
>   info.category = 'input'  (string)
>   info.parent = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX_port'  
> (string)
>   info.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
>   info.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
>   info.udi = 
> '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX_port_logicaldev_input'  
> (string)
>   input.device = '/dev/input/event6'  (string)
>   input.originating_device = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX_port'  (string)
>   input.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
>   input.x11_driver = 'synaptics'  (string)
>   input.x11_options.ClickButton1 = '1'  (string)
>   input.x11_options.HorizEdgeScroll = 'true'  (string)
>   input.x11_options.MaxTapMove = '2000'  (string)
>   input.x11_options.TapButton1 = '1'  (string)
>   input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll = 'true'  (string)
>   linux.device_file = '/dev/input/event6'  (string)
>   linux.hotplug_type = 2  (0x2)  (int)
>   linux.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
>   linux.sysfs_path = '/sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio1/input/input6/event6'  
> (string)
>==================================================
>
> In the info section above it tells me that touchpad is recognised. 
> Looking into
> /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/11-x11-synaptics.fdi I see that
> by installing the synaptics driver a hal configuration file was
> created.
>
> Copy this to /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi (you can call
> it something different if you wish) and add an option line to adjust
> sensitivity:
>
><merge key="input.x11_options.PressureMotionMinZ" type="integer">25</merge>
>
> Play with different integer values to see what works and also look at
> the synaptics man page for different options, in case
> PressureMotionMin is not what you need.  Each time you make a change
> you should restart hal or the xserver to see the result.
>
> 3. Without synaptics a lot depends on what the evdev or mouse drivers
>    can do - they may not have pressure related options to play with.
>    Again I would start with their man pages and follow the example
>    above, as long as lshal shows which driver has captured the
>    touchpad events.

So you're saying that without the synaptics driver there is no
sensitivity adjustment?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Onteria]

> >> Before you go to great pains to get this working, you do know that hal
> >> is checking out right?
> 
> Yes, I knew that.  Maybe I'll just live without the touchpad until HAL
> goes away for good.
> 
> My question is why did the Gentoo maintainers decide to use HAL
> instead of xorg.conf?

The decision to use hal for the hardware configuration was an upstream 
thing. Same thing with switching to udev[1]. Also you could use xorg.conf, 
it just wasn't recommended if hal could work with everything out of the box.

[1] http://www.x.org/wiki/XorgHAL
-- 
Onteria

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 5505 bytes --]

On Sunday 14 November 2010 15:36:43 Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2010-11-14, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Before you go to great pains to get this working, you do know that hal
> >> is checking out right?
> 
> Yes, I knew that.  Maybe I'll just live without the touchpad until HAL
> goes away for good.
> 
> My question is why did the Gentoo maintainers decide to use HAL
> instead of xorg.conf?

Because that's what upstream decided to do.  You can still use your xorg.conf 
though - just remove any /etc/hal/fdi/policy/* files that you have created.

> >> Even the person who wrote it realized the mess it was and it is dying
> >> pretty soon.  I think it is policykit or polkit or something to that
> >> effect.  If you want to start using that instead, it may save you
> >> some headaches later on when it is no longer a option.
> > 
> > As Dale suggests don't waste your time on hal and its fdi files.
> > xorg 1.8.x will be going stable soon and that does away with hal
> > configuration.  I recommend that you unmask it and see if you can
> > control your touchpad easier using an xorg.conf and evdev.  However,
> > the synaptics driver is there for a reason ...
> > 
> > http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.8-upgrade-guide
> > .xml
> > 
> > BTW, if you want to remain with xorg 1.7.x then I recommend you try the
> > following:
> > 
> > 1. Add synaptics to your INPUT_DEVICES in /etc/make.conf - most often
> > 
> >    than not it will just work™ and no further adjustment of
> >    sensitivity is necessary.
> 
> I did that, but the synaptics driver doesn't get used by default. Once
> you've installed it, how do you get the server to use it? I think I
> should abandon HAL and switch to xorg.conf.  It's so much easier to
> use.

You may need to remerge x11-drivers/xf86-input-synaptics.  Then restart xorg 
and check what happens with the touchpad in your Xorg.0.log.


> > 2. Then run lshal to see if your touchpad is recognised.  In my
> > 
> >    laptop (I use hal) it shows this:
> >==================================================
> >
> > udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/pci_8086_d132'
> > 
> >   info.parent = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer'  (string)
> >   info.product = 'Core Processor DMI'  (string)
> >   info.category = 'input'  (string)
> >   info.parent =
> >   '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX_port'
> > 
> > (string)
> > 
> >   info.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
> >   info.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
> >   info.udi =
> > 
> > '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX_port_logicaldev_in
> > put' (string)
> > 
> >   input.device = '/dev/input/event6'  (string)
> >   input.originating_device =
> >   '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX_port'  (string)
> >   input.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
> >   input.x11_driver = 'synaptics'  (string)
> >   input.x11_options.ClickButton1 = '1'  (string)
> >   input.x11_options.HorizEdgeScroll = 'true'  (string)
> >   input.x11_options.MaxTapMove = '2000'  (string)
> >   input.x11_options.TapButton1 = '1'  (string)
> >   input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll = 'true'  (string)
> >   linux.device_file = '/dev/input/event6'  (string)
> >   linux.hotplug_type = 2  (0x2)  (int)
> >   linux.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
> >   linux.sysfs_path =
> >   '/sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio1/input/input6/event6'
> > 
> > (string)
> >
> >==================================================
> >
> > In the info section above it tells me that touchpad is recognised.
> > Looking into
> > /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/11-x11-synaptics.fdi I see that
> > by installing the synaptics driver a hal configuration file was
> > created.
> > 
> > Copy this to /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi (you can call
> > it something different if you wish) and add an option line to adjust
> >
> > sensitivity:
> ><merge key="input.x11_options.PressureMotionMinZ"
> >type="integer">25</merge>
> >
> > Play with different integer values to see what works and also look at
> > the synaptics man page for different options, in case
> > PressureMotionMin is not what you need.  Each time you make a change
> > you should restart hal or the xserver to see the result.
> > 
> > 3. Without synaptics a lot depends on what the evdev or mouse drivers
> > 
> >    can do - they may not have pressure related options to play with.
> >    Again I would start with their man pages and follow the example
> >    above, as long as lshal shows which driver has captured the
> >    touchpad events.
> 
> So you're saying that without the synaptics driver there is no
> sensitivity adjustment?

Probably not - I don't really know.  On my hardware I can't do much without 
the x11-drivers/xf86-input-synaptics driver.  I can't recall if without it I 
was able to get some basic functionality, i.e. moving the cursor around, but 
was not getting multiple finger gestures, tapping/clicking, and edge scrolling 
for sure.  YMMV.

man synaptics shows you all the different options and functionality offered by 
this driver.

To set it up have a look at this:

http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Synaptics_Touchpad/Xorg_7.3

Finally, if xorg-server-1.8 is around the corner to be stabilised I suggest 
that you unmask it and use the xorg.conf file that we all know and love.  :-)
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-14, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

> Finally, if xorg-server-1.8 is around the corner to be stabilised I
> suggest that you unmask it and use the xorg.conf file that we all
> know and love.  :-)

Using xorg.conf with 1.7 is simple enough (it's what I do on all my
other machines).  That's why I don't understand why the Gentoo
developers decided to use HAL by default when it seems to be widely
acknowledged to be such a disaster.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Half a mind is a
                                  at               terrible thing to waste!
                              gmail.com            

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 17:31 on Monday 15 November 2010, Grant 
Edwards did opine thusly:

> On 2010-11-14, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Finally, if xorg-server-1.8 is around the corner to be stabilised I
> > suggest that you unmask it and use the xorg.conf file that we all
> > know and love.  :-)
> 
> Using xorg.conf with 1.7 is simple enough (it's what I do on all my
> other machines).  That's why I don't understand why the Gentoo
> developers decided to use HAL by default when it seems to be widely
> acknowledged to be such a disaster.

The Gentoo devs made no such decision.

Upstream did.

Gentoo closely tracks upstream, unless upstream is completely broken. HAL 
might be a crock of chit, but it does not render X broken and not usable.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-15, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:31 on Monday 15 November 2010, Grant 
> Edwards did opine thusly:
>
>> On 2010-11-14, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Finally, if xorg-server-1.8 is around the corner to be stabilised I
>> > suggest that you unmask it and use the xorg.conf file that we all
>> > know and love.  :-)
>> 
>> Using xorg.conf with 1.7 is simple enough (it's what I do on all my
>> other machines).  That's why I don't understand why the Gentoo
>> developers decided to use HAL by default when it seems to be widely
>> acknowledged to be such a disaster.
>
> The Gentoo devs made no such decision.
>
> Upstream did.
>
> Gentoo closely tracks upstream, unless upstream is completely broken.
> HAL might be a crock of chit, but it does not render X broken and not
> usable.

Whether Xorg uses HAL or not is controlled by a USE flag isn't it? So
upstream choses the defaults for USE flags?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! My BIOLOGICAL ALARM
                                  at               CLOCK just went off ... It
                              gmail.com            has noiseless DOZE FUNCTION
                                                   and full kitchen!!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 22:51 on Monday 15 November 2010, Grant 
Edwards did opine thusly:

> On 2010-11-15, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 17:31 on Monday 15 November 2010, Grant
> > 
> > Edwards did opine thusly:
> >> On 2010-11-14, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Finally, if xorg-server-1.8 is around the corner to be stabilised I
> >> > suggest that you unmask it and use the xorg.conf file that we all
> >> > know and love.  :-)
> >> 
> >> Using xorg.conf with 1.7 is simple enough (it's what I do on all my
> >> other machines).  That's why I don't understand why the Gentoo
> >> developers decided to use HAL by default when it seems to be widely
> >> acknowledged to be such a disaster.
> > 
> > The Gentoo devs made no such decision.
> > 
> > Upstream did.
> > 
> > Gentoo closely tracks upstream, unless upstream is completely broken.
> > HAL might be a crock of chit, but it does not render X broken and not
> > usable.
> 
> Whether Xorg uses HAL or not is controlled by a USE flag isn't it? So
> upstream choses the defaults for USE flags?

No, upstream chooses the default config out of the box. 

Gentoo does what Gentoo has to do to replicate that config.
Gentoo needs a very good reason to change upstream default behaviour, along 
the lines of extreme brokenness.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-15, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Whether Xorg uses HAL or not is controlled by a USE flag isn't it? So
>> upstream choses the defaults for USE flags?
>
> No, upstream chooses the default config out of the box. 
>
> Gentoo does what Gentoo has to do to replicate that config.

OK. (To me that means that upstream does choose the defaults for USE
flags, but that may just be semantics).

> Gentoo needs a very good reason to change upstream default behaviour,
> along the lines of extreme brokenness.

There are those of us that might think HAL meets that criteria, but
that's pretty much moot at this point. :)

Looking forward to a HAL-free system...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Okay ... I'm going
                                  at               home to write the "I HATE
                              gmail.com            RUBIK's CUBE HANDBOOK FOR
                                                   DEAD CAT LOVERS" ...

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 17:31 on Monday 15 November 2010, Grant
> Edwards did opine thusly:
>
>    
>> On 2010-11-14, Mick<michaelkintzios@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>      
>>> Finally, if xorg-server-1.8 is around the corner to be stabilised I
>>> suggest that you unmask it and use the xorg.conf file that we all
>>> know and love.  :-)
>>>        
>> Using xorg.conf with 1.7 is simple enough (it's what I do on all my
>> other machines).  That's why I don't understand why the Gentoo
>> developers decided to use HAL by default when it seems to be widely
>> acknowledged to be such a disaster.
>>      
> The Gentoo devs made no such decision.
>
> Upstream did.
>
> Gentoo closely tracks upstream, unless upstream is completely broken. HAL
> might be a crock of chit, but it does not render X broken and not usable.
>
>
>    

Actually, it rendered mine broken and not usable.  If upstream walks off 
the edge of a cliff, does Gentoo follow upstream then?  What would have 
been nice is if Gentoo would have at least made it something that the 
user has to chose to do pro-actively and not the default.  If they had 
done that, for say six months or more, then the devs would have been 
able to see the disaster and left it off by default.  Actually, they may 
could have even seen that it wasn't going to last at all and then not 
ever have a user using it unless they chose too and enabled it 
themselves.  It's not like hal lasted for many years as a "stable" project.

I generally trust the devs.  I did when I let hal take over the config 
of X since it was the new way of doing things.  You think I feel the 
same way now?  To give you a hint, I haven't switched to polkit or 
whatever it is being called now.  I think the reason is obvious.   I 
don't have the same amount of trust as I did before.  They followed 
upstream with hal and left me in a pickle.  I haven't forgotten that yet 
and won't for a long time.   I'll switch when I am reasonably sure it is 
safe to do so.  That information will come from folks that are users 
tho, not devs.  If a lot of users don't like it or have trouble with it, 
I won't switch.   The key is the users this time.  You, Alan, being one 
of them.  You got more trust with me than the devs do.  Why, I don't 
recall you guiding me off the cliff.

I didn't mention the KDE4 mess on purpose.  KDE didn't leave Gentoo with 
a option since it stopped support for it.  Different situation there.  
Very little choices to pick from.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 00:56 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Dale did 
opine thusly:

> Actually, it rendered mine broken and not usable.  If upstream walks off 
> the edge of a cliff, does Gentoo follow upstream then?  What would have 
> been nice is if Gentoo would have at least made it something that the 
> user has to chose to do pro-actively and not the default.  If they had 
> done that, for say six months or more, then the devs would have been 
> able to see the disaster and left it off by default.  Actually, they may 
> could have even seen that it wasn't going to last at all and then not 
> ever have a user using it unless they chose too and enabled it 
> themselves.  It's not like hal lasted for many years as a "stable" project.

Actually it did last many years as a stable project. A very very very early 
ubuntu was the first to start using it. That gives it about 3 to 4 years or so 
- a long time in the software world.

In relation to the total number of Gentoo users, the number affected by HAL 
was small indeed. I myself had no ill-effects across several machines (other 
than XML-induced frustration).

Your experience, though painful, was not the norm. Sometimes devs have to make 
hard decisions, like break a small number of user's configs. At least they 
gave you a flag you could use. Once it was evident that HAL was a total POS, 
they have another hard decision: revert to no-HAL? What will that break? How 
many unknown setups out there that are the opposite of Dale? What about the 
next version of X.org that will not support HAL? Do they arbitrarily revert 
the default to sans-HAL only to make it something else next verion? That may 
piss off a lot of users.

> I generally trust the devs.  I did when I let hal take over the config 
> of X since it was the new way of doing things.  You think I feel the 
> same way now?

I think you are colouring the whole canvas with your own singular experience. 
One mis-judgement does not make a wreaked ecosystem, and shit does happen. 
SOmetimes in this world you're the hammer, sometimes the nail. You were the 
nail.

I don't disagree that HAL is an utter POS. I just don't agree with your 
reasoning that brought you personally to that conclusion.

 
-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 00:56 on Tuesday 16 November 2010, Dale did
> opine thusly:
>
>    
>> Actually, it rendered mine broken and not usable.  If upstream walks off
>> the edge of a cliff, does Gentoo follow upstream then?  What would have
>> been nice is if Gentoo would have at least made it something that the
>> user has to chose to do pro-actively and not the default.  If they had
>> done that, for say six months or more, then the devs would have been
>> able to see the disaster and left it off by default.  Actually, they may
>> could have even seen that it wasn't going to last at all and then not
>> ever have a user using it unless they chose too and enabled it
>> themselves.  It's not like hal lasted for many years as a "stable" project.
>>      
> Actually it did last many years as a stable project. A very very very early
> ubuntu was the first to start using it. That gives it about 3 to 4 years or so
> - a long time in the software world.
>
> In relation to the total number of Gentoo users, the number affected by HAL
> was small indeed. I myself had no ill-effects across several machines (other
> than XML-induced frustration).
>
> Your experience, though painful, was not the norm. Sometimes devs have to make
> hard decisions, like break a small number of user's configs. At least they
> gave you a flag you could use. Once it was evident that HAL was a total POS,
> they have another hard decision: revert to no-HAL? What will that break? How
> many unknown setups out there that are the opposite of Dale? What about the
> next version of X.org that will not support HAL? Do they arbitrarily revert
> the default to sans-HAL only to make it something else next verion? That may
> piss off a lot of users.
>
>    
>> I generally trust the devs.  I did when I let hal take over the config
>> of X since it was the new way of doing things.  You think I feel the
>> same way now?
>>      
> I think you are colouring the whole canvas with your own singular experience.
> One mis-judgement does not make a wreaked ecosystem, and shit does happen.
> SOmetimes in this world you're the hammer, sometimes the nail. You were the
> nail.
>
> I don't disagree that HAL is an utter POS. I just don't agree with your
> reasoning that brought you personally to that conclusion.
>
>
>    

When it happens to me, I do take it seriously and I give it a lot of 
thought on future changes.  After having this rig about 7 or 8 years, 
hal is the only reason I have ever had to pull the plug out of the 
wall.  That is what I base my conclusion on because that is what 
happened to me here.  Yea, it worked for a lot of people but it left me 
with a mess.

Maybe everyone that hal worked well for still has that trust.  Thing is, 
it didn't here.  I lost a little of that trust.  Some of the reasoning 
behind this may have a lot to do with my health situation.  I don't 
trust Drs to much either.  They are the reason I am where I am and I 
wish I hadn't trusted them oh so many years ago.  I like to belive that 
people will do the right thing but it appears that depends on the 
situation.  I just got a mess out of them both.  Seems to happen a lot.

What's the old saying:  If it wasn't for bad luck I wouldn't have any 
luck at all.

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Marc Joliet]

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Am Sun, 14 Nov 2010 09:46:51 +0000
schrieb Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com>:

[...] 
> As Dale suggests don't waste your time on hal and its fdi files.  xorg 1.8.x 
> will be going stable soon and that does away with hal configuration.  I 
> recommend that you unmask it and see if you can control your touchpad easier 
> using an xorg.conf and evdev.  However, the synaptics driver is there for a 
> reason ...
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.8-upgrade-guide.xml
> 
[...]

AIUI, 1.8.x is being skipped. The current stable target is xorg-server 1.9.x
(see https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=344827 and
http://blogs.gentoo.org/scarabeus/2010/11/08/xorg-server-1-9-stabilisation/).

HTH
--
Marc Joliet

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Re: [gentoo-user] How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Sebastian Beßler]

Am 14.11.2010 03:37, schrieb Dale:

> Before you go to great pains to get this working, you do know that hal
> is checking out right? Even the person who wrote it realized the mess it
> was and it is dying pretty soon.

Even KDE4 can be used without HAL pretty soon, I use the live-ebuilds 
and mostly everything that needed HAL before works now without. As much 
as I see the only thing that needs it at this point is phonon, without 
HAL KDE refuses to see my soundcard but that is not that bad because 
every non-KDE/QT(?) programm still has sound.

I give HAL a year at most, than it hould be gone and forgotten.

Greetings

Sebastian Beßler

Re: [gentoo-user] How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Fernando Antunes]

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On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 11:10 PM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com>wrote:

> Can anybody point me to a hint on how to configure synaptics touchapad
> sensitivity?
>
> The touchpad on my Thinkpad T500 is so sensitive you don't even have
> to touch it. Merely bringing a thumb or finger within 1/8 - 1/4 inch
> will cause the cursor to twitch spasmodically for a second and then
> jump to the lower left corner of the screen.  Once you have a finger
> on the touchpad, it seems to work OK.
>
> I've figured out how to disable it temporarily using the "xinput"
> command, but I would like to actually get it working right.
>
> All the docs I can find seem to assume two things:
>
>  1) an xorg.conf file
>
>  2) the xf86-input-synpatics driver
>
> I'm using neither.
>
> I decided finally to give in and let Xorg use HAL like it wants to by
> default when you do a Gentoo install.
>
> I have a Thinkpad T61 and I do not use xorg.conf. But I am using HAL. The
touchpad works pretty good.

You can adjust synaptics changing the configuration on the
/etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi file.
man 4 synaptic can give you a lot of extra options.


> What a huge mistake.  I really, really hate HAL.  With xorg.conf, all
> the settings were in one file, in an easy to read, easy to edit
> format. Now with HAL, they're scattered over several files.  And to
> make sure you can't edit or read them, they're in XML.  I have no idea
> what "problem" HAL is supposed to be solving, but it apprently wasn't
> a problem I ever had -- AFAICT HAL is nothing but pain.
>
> --
> Grant
>
>
>
>

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[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-18, Fernando Antunes <fs.antunes@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 11:10 PM, Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Can anybody point me to a hint on how to configure synaptics touchapad
>> sensitivity?

>> All the docs I can find seem to assume two things:
>>
>>  1) an xorg.conf file
>>
>>  2) the xf86-input-synpatics driver
>>
>> I'm using neither.

> You can adjust synaptics changing the configuration on the
> /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi file.
> man 4 synaptic can give you a lot of extra options.

That only works if you're using the synaptics driver -- which I'm not.

I haven't figured out how to do that yet.  It was built, since I
included it in INPUT_DEVICES, but HAL decided not to use it.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Wait ... is this a FUN
                                  at               THING or the END of LIFE in
                              gmail.com            Petticoat Junction??

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Mick]

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On Thursday 18 November 2010 15:48:23 Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2010-11-18, Fernando Antunes <fs.antunes@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 11:10 PM, Grant Edwards
> >
> ><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> Can anybody point me to a hint on how to configure synaptics touchapad
> >> sensitivity?
> >> 
> >> All the docs I can find seem to assume two things:
> >>  1) an xorg.conf file
> >>  
> >>  2) the xf86-input-synpatics driver
> >> 
> >> I'm using neither.
> > 
> > You can adjust synaptics changing the configuration on the
> > /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi file.
> > man 4 synaptic can give you a lot of extra options.
> 
> That only works if you're using the synaptics driver -- which I'm not.
> 
> I haven't figured out how to do that yet.  It was built, since I
> included it in INPUT_DEVICES, but HAL decided not to use it.

What does your Xorg.0.log say about synaptics?

$ cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep synaptics
(II) LoadModule: "synaptics"
(II) Loading /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/input/synaptics_drv.so
(II) Module synaptics: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-18, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 18 November 2010 15:48:23 Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>>> You can adjust synaptics changing the configuration on the
>>> /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi file. man 4 synaptic can
>>> give you a lot of extra options.
>> 
>> That only works if you're using the synaptics driver -- which I'm not.
>> 
>> I haven't figured out how to do that yet.  It was built, since I
>> included it in INPUT_DEVICES, but HAL decided not to use it.
>
> What does your Xorg.0.log say about synaptics?
>
> $ cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep synaptics
> (II) LoadModule: "synaptics"
> (II) Loading /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/input/synaptics_drv.so
> (II) Module synaptics: vendor="X.Org Foundation"

$ grep -i synaptic /var/log/Xorg.0.log
(II) config/hal: Adding input device SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad
(**) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: always reports core events
(**) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: Device: "/dev/input/event6"
(II) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: Found 3 mouse buttons
(II) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: Found absolute axes
(II) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: Found x and y absolute axes
(II) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: Found absolute touchpad.
(II) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: Configuring as touchpad
(**) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: YAxisMapping: buttons 4 and 5
(**) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: EmulateWheelButton: 4, EmulateWheelInertia: 10, EmulateWheelTimeout: 200
(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad" (type: TOUCHPAD)
(**) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: (accel) keeping acceleration scheme 1
(**) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: (accel) acceleration profile 0
(II) SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad: initialized for absolute axes.


$ emerge --search synaptics
Searching...    
[ Results for search key : synaptics ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]

*  x11-drivers/xf86-input-synaptics
      Latest version available: 1.2.1
      Latest version installed: 1.2.1
      Size of files: 288 kB
      Homepage:      http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-input-synaptics/
      Description:   Driver for Synaptics touchpads
      License:       MIT

      
$ grep -i synaptics /etc/make.conf
INPUT_DEVICES="evdev keyboard mouse synaptics" 


$ find /usr/lib -name '*synaptics*'
/usr/lib/xorg/modules/input/synaptics_drv.so
/usr/lib/pkgconfig/xorg-synaptics.pc

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 3054 bytes --]

On Friday 19 November 2010 04:55:23 Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2010-11-18, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday 18 November 2010 15:48:23 Grant Edwards wrote:
> >>> You can adjust synaptics changing the configuration on the
> >>> /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi file. man 4 synaptic can
> >>> give you a lot of extra options.
> >> 
> >> That only works if you're using the synaptics driver -- which I'm not.
> >> 
> >> I haven't figured out how to do that yet.  It was built, since I
> >> included it in INPUT_DEVICES, but HAL decided not to use it.
> > 
> > What does your Xorg.0.log say about synaptics?

> $ grep -i synaptic /var/log/Xorg.0.log
> (II) config/hal: Adding input device SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad

Excellent!  It seems then that HAL picks up your touchpad and uses it.

So,

# touch /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi

and paste this in it:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
<deviceinfo version="0.2">
  <device>
    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
        <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll" 
type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.MaxTapMove" type="string">2000</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.HorizEdgeScroll" 
type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton1" type="string">1</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.ClickButton1" type="string">1</merge>
        <!-- Arbitrary options can be passed to the driver using
             the input.x11_options property since xorg-server-1.5. -->
        <!-- EXAMPLES:
        Switch on shared memory, enables the driver to be configured at 
runtime
        <merge key="input.x11_options.SHMConfig" type="string">true</merge>

        Maximum movement of the finger for detecting a tap
        <merge key="input.x11_options.MaxTapMove" type="string">2000</merge>

        Enable vertical scrolling when dragging along the right edge
        <merge key="input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll" 
type="string">true</merge>

        Enable vertical scrolling when dragging with two fingers anywhere on 
the touchpad
        <merge key="input.x11_options.VertTwoFingerScroll" 
type="string">true</merge>

        Enable horizontal scrolling when dragging with two fingers anywhere on 
the touchpad
        <merge key="input.x11_options.HorizTwoFingerScroll" 
type="string">true</merge>

        If on, circular scrolling is used
        <merge key="input.x11_options.CircularScrolling" 
type="string">true</merge>

        For other possible options, check CONFIGURATION DETAILS in synaptics 
man page
        -->
    </match>
  </device>
</deviceinfo>


Then see the examples in the file and man synaptics for finely tuning your 
touchpad.  However ... I would at this stage suggest again that you have a 
look at xorg-server-1.9.x instead of trying to get HAL working.

HTH.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-19, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> That only works if you're using the synaptics driver -- which I'm
>>>> not.
>>>> 
>>>> I haven't figured out how to do that yet.  It was built, since I
>>>> included it in INPUT_DEVICES, but HAL decided not to use it.
>>> 
>>> What does your Xorg.0.log say about synaptics?
>
>> $ grep -i synaptic /var/log/Xorg.0.log
>> (II) config/hal: Adding input device SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad
>
> Excellent!  It seems then that HAL picks up your touchpad and uses it.
[...]
> # touch /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi
>
> and paste this in it:
>
><?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
><deviceinfo version="0.2">
>  <device>
>     <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
>         <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
[ synaptic driver options]
>     </match>
>  </device>
></deviceinfo>
>
> Then see the examples in the file and man synaptics for finely tuning your 
> touchpad.  However ... I would at this stage suggest again that you have a 
> look at xorg-server-1.9.x instead of trying to get HAL working.

Brilliant.  After tweaking a few of the pressure settings, my touchpad
works great!  The hard part is remembering to restart hald as well as
the X server whenever you make any changes...

-- 
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Valmor de Almeida]

On 12/11/2010 08:52 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2010-11-19, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
[snip]
>>
>> and paste this in it:
>>
>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
>> <deviceinfo version="0.2">
>>  <device>
>>     <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
>>         <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
> [ synaptic driver options]
>>     </match>
>>  </device>
>> </deviceinfo>
>>
>> Then see the examples in the file and man synaptics for finely tuning your 
>> touchpad.  However ... I would at this stage suggest again that you have a 
>> look at xorg-server-1.9.x instead of trying to get HAL working.
> 
> Brilliant.  After tweaking a few of the pressure settings, my touchpad
> works great!  The hard part is remembering to restart hald as well as
> the X server whenever you make any changes...
> 

Thanks for all the posts. I finally fixed the same problem I've had with
my Thinkpad X201. In my case I had to do

1) Edit /etc/make.conf  INPUT_DEVICES="evdev synaptics"
2) emerge xorg-drivers (also emerged xorg-server and xorg-x11 to be on
the safe side)
3) cp /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/11-x11-synaptics.fdi
/etc/hal/fdi/policy/.
4) edit 11-x11-synaptics.fdi
5) /etc/init.d/hald restart
6) restart xorg-server

--
Valmor

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 1796 bytes --]

On Sunday 12 December 2010 05:57:19 Valmor de Almeida wrote:
> On 12/11/2010 08:52 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > On 2010-11-19, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> >> and paste this in it:
> >> 
> >> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
> >> <deviceinfo version="0.2">
> >> 
> >>  <device>
> >>  
> >>     <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
> >>     
> >>         <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
> > 
> > [ synaptic driver options]
> > 
> >>     </match>
> >>  
> >>  </device>
> >> 
> >> </deviceinfo>
> >> 
> >> Then see the examples in the file and man synaptics for finely tuning
> >> your touchpad.  However ... I would at this stage suggest again that
> >> you have a look at xorg-server-1.9.x instead of trying to get HAL
> >> working.
> > 
> > Brilliant.  After tweaking a few of the pressure settings, my touchpad
> > works great!  The hard part is remembering to restart hald as well as
> > the X server whenever you make any changes...
> 
> Thanks for all the posts. I finally fixed the same problem I've had with
> my Thinkpad X201. In my case I had to do
> 
> 1) Edit /etc/make.conf  INPUT_DEVICES="evdev synaptics"
> 2) emerge xorg-drivers (also emerged xorg-server and xorg-x11 to be on
> the safe side)
> 3) cp /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/11-x11-synaptics.fdi
> /etc/hal/fdi/policy/.
> 4) edit 11-x11-synaptics.fdi
> 5) /etc/init.d/hald restart
> 6) restart xorg-server

Guys I'm glad that my pointers helped you get it going - but I have to say 
that soon with xorg-server-1.9 becoming stable HAL and its xml configuration 
files will be a thing of the past.

Still, you have the satisfaction of cracking this one!  :-)

-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Valmor de Almeida]

On 12/12/2010 05:59 AM, Mick wrote:
[snip]
> 
> Guys I'm glad that my pointers helped you get it going - but I have to say 
> that soon with xorg-server-1.9 becoming stable HAL and its xml configuration 
> files will be a thing of the past.
> 
> Still, you have the satisfaction of cracking this one!  :-)
> 

Looking forward to xorg-server-1.9.

Thanks,

--
Valmor

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday 12 December 2010 17:10:10 Valmor de Almeida wrote:

> Looking forward to xorg-server-1.9.

So why not install it? It's been running here for three months without a 
single problem.

Just add x11-base/xorg-server to /etc/portage/package.keywords. Job 
done.

-- 
Rgds
Peter.          Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Valmor de Almeida]

On 12/12/2010 07:17 PM, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Sunday 12 December 2010 17:10:10 Valmor de Almeida wrote:
> 
>> Looking forward to xorg-server-1.9.
> 
> So why not install it? It's been running here for three months without a 
> single problem.
> 
> Just add x11-base/xorg-server to /etc/portage/package.keywords. Job 
> done.
> 
Soon after travel; don't need surprises on the road.

--
Valmor

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[David W Noon]

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On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 07:10:02 +0100, Grant Edwards wrote about
[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?:

>On 2010-11-15, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Whether Xorg uses HAL or not is controlled by a USE flag isn't it?
>>> So upstream choses the defaults for USE flags?
>>
>> No, upstream chooses the default config out of the box. 
>>
>> Gentoo does what Gentoo has to do to replicate that config.
>
>OK. (To me that means that upstream does choose the defaults for USE
>flags, but that may just be semantics).

No, the USE flags are purely a Portage thing.  The USE flags determine
which options are enabled/disabled when the ebuild runs the equivalent
of a ./configure script.  The defaults for the USE flags are part of
the ebuild, completely separate from upstream.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-16, David W Noon <dwnoon@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 07:10:02 +0100, Grant Edwards wrote about
> [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?:
>
>>On 2010-11-15, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Whether Xorg uses HAL or not is controlled by a USE flag isn't it?
>>>> So upstream choses the defaults for USE flags?
>>>
>>> No, upstream chooses the default config out of the box. 
>>>
>>> Gentoo does what Gentoo has to do to replicate that config.
>>
>>OK. (To me that means that upstream does choose the defaults for USE
>>flags, but that may just be semantics).
>
> No, the USE flags are purely a Portage thing.  The USE flags
> determine which options are enabled/disabled when the ebuild runs the
> equivalent of a ./configure script.  The defaults for the USE flags
> are part of the ebuild, completely separate from upstream.

But if the developers are required to duplicate the upstream
"out-of-box" configuration, then the defaults for the USE flags are
determined by upstream decisions, not by the developers.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! WHOA!!  Ken and Barbie
                                  at               are having TOO MUCH FUN!!
                              gmail.com            It must be the NEGATIVE
                                                   IONS!!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[David W Noon]

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On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 19:20:02 +0100, Grant Edwards wrote about
[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?:

>On 2010-11-16, David W Noon <dwnoon@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> No, the USE flags are purely a Portage thing.  The USE flags
>> determine which options are enabled/disabled when the ebuild runs the
>> equivalent of a ./configure script.  The defaults for the USE flags
>> are part of the ebuild, completely separate from upstream.
>
>But if the developers are required to duplicate the upstream
>"out-of-box" configuration,

They aren't.  They are required to produce a stable package for Gentoo.

>then the defaults for the USE flags are
>determined by upstream decisions, not by the developers.

Again, the defaults are chosen for stability with Gentoo first;
secondly, there are no fixed defaults -- or "out-of-box" configuration
-- from upstream, as the USE flags are simply parameterizing
the ./configure script via autotools.

The only distributions that have fixed configurations are the binary
ones.  Any package that is built from source -- and under Gentoo that
means almost everything -- is intrinsically configurable by the person
building the binaries.  To extend your "out-of-box" analogy: source code
doesn't arrive in a box, but binaries (.rpm, .deb, etc.) do.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 00:28 on Wednesday 17 November 2010, David W 
Noon did opine thusly:

> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 19:20:02 +0100, Grant Edwards wrote about
> 
> [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?:
> >On 2010-11-16, David W Noon <dwnoon@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> >> No, the USE flags are purely a Portage thing.  The USE flags
> >> determine which options are enabled/disabled when the ebuild runs the
> >> equivalent of a ./configure script.  The defaults for the USE flags
> >> are part of the ebuild, completely separate from upstream.
> >
> >But if the developers are required to duplicate the upstream
> >"out-of-box" configuration,
> 
> They aren't.  They are required to produce a stable package for Gentoo.

The truth is that they are required to follow Gentoo QA guidelines.

Sadly, it's an undeniable fact of life these QA guidelines are often just 
ignored for a variety of reasons, that the ebuilds make it into the tree 
anyway, that QA is often perceived as toothless and ineffectual, and that when 
flameeyes sees it happening he writes massive blogs about it and a select few 
hate him even more.

None of this changes what *should* be, or that many devs take the guidelines 
seriously. If you were to ask the X devs why they enabled hal in the 1.7 
series by default and they answered "We (the X team) follow QA guidelines and 
track upstream defaults by default", then that would be a perfectly reasonable 
answer.

If you then mentioned that their defaults broke Dale's setup, they'd likely 
answer "Who's Dale?" followed shortly by "None of us have hardware like Dale 
to test. Sorry 'bout that. Set USE=-hal"

But we're all surmising here and I notice that none of us ever asked the devs 
*why* they made that default.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 00:28 on Wednesday 17 November 2010, David W
> Noon did opine thusly:
>
>    
>> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 19:20:02 +0100, Grant Edwards wrote about
>>
>> [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?:
>>      
>>> On 2010-11-16, David W Noon<dwnoon@ntlworld.com>  wrote:
>>>        
>> [snip]
>>
>>      
>>>> No, the USE flags are purely a Portage thing.  The USE flags
>>>> determine which options are enabled/disabled when the ebuild runs the
>>>> equivalent of a ./configure script.  The defaults for the USE flags
>>>> are part of the ebuild, completely separate from upstream.
>>>>          
>>> But if the developers are required to duplicate the upstream
>>> "out-of-box" configuration,
>>>        
>> They aren't.  They are required to produce a stable package for Gentoo.
>>      
> The truth is that they are required to follow Gentoo QA guidelines.
>
> Sadly, it's an undeniable fact of life these QA guidelines are often just
> ignored for a variety of reasons, that the ebuilds make it into the tree
> anyway, that QA is often perceived as toothless and ineffectual, and that when
> flameeyes sees it happening he writes massive blogs about it and a select few
> hate him even more.
>
> None of this changes what *should* be, or that many devs take the guidelines
> seriously. If you were to ask the X devs why they enabled hal in the 1.7
> series by default and they answered "We (the X team) follow QA guidelines and
> track upstream defaults by default", then that would be a perfectly reasonable
> answer.
>
> If you then mentioned that their defaults broke Dale's setup, they'd likely
> answer "Who's Dale?" followed shortly by "None of us have hardware like Dale
> to test. Sorry 'bout that. Set USE=-hal"
>
> But we're all surmising here and I notice that none of us ever asked the devs
> *why* they made that default.
>
>    

I know my puter is special to me, I built this thing, but I didn't know 
it was that special.  Abit NF7 mobo with a PS/2 mouse and keyboard.  If 
that is so different, it's a wonder anyone had any luck with hal.  I 
just don't see anything special about that.  If I had some old crusty PC 
AT or PC XT or some brand spanking new thing that very few people have 
seen yet, then I could see that.  Mine is not that old or that new 
either.  By the way, my keyboard is about as old as my puter.  I did 
replace the mouse a few years ago tho.  The little laser thing went 
out.  I could click and scroll but no moving the pointer.

I also find it funny that it works fine without hal but fails miserably 
with it.  That makes me giggle.

This is Gentoo tho.  It's bleeding edge, warts and all.  o_O

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Walter Dnes]

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 02:00:48AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote

> If you then mentioned that their defaults broke Dale's setup, they'd
> likely answer "Who's Dale?" followed shortly by "None of us have
> hardware like Dale to test. Sorry 'bout that. Set USE=-hal"

  Of course the USE flag advice is given *AFTER* the new flag breaks
your system.  That's why I use "-*" at the beginning of my USE in
/etc/make.conf.  I never found out whether hal would break my system<G>.
If Dale had used "-*" his X would not have broken, even if some other
ebuild pulled it onto the machine as a hard-coded dependancy.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 02:43 on Thursday 18 November 2010, Walter 
Dnes did opine thusly:

> On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 02:00:48AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote
> 
> > If you then mentioned that their defaults broke Dale's setup, they'd
> > likely answer "Who's Dale?" followed shortly by "None of us have
> > hardware like Dale to test. Sorry 'bout that. Set USE=-hal"
> 
>   Of course the USE flag advice is given *AFTER* the new flag breaks
> your system.  That's why I use "-*" at the beginning of my USE in
> /etc/make.conf.  I never found out whether hal would break my system<G>.
> If Dale had used "-*" his X would not have broken, even if some other
> ebuild pulled it onto the machine as a hard-coded dependancy.

Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what the 
devs do.

Dale should have seen a new package being installed - an "N" inside "[    ]",
should have seen new flags highlighted in colour, and should have decided.

If he decided to go without hal, nothing would have changed for him.
He decided to go with hal, and he got the breakage he did. Either way, seeing 
the USE flag changes tells him nothing about the impending breakage. He can 
only know that by *doing it*, or reading about others that did it.

Let's look at this sanely and realise that there's nothing magic about hal and 
what it did. It has bugs. Big deal. So did jpeg and look at the carnage that 
one caused.

How would your method of handling USE have assisted in preventing that 
breakage? Please note that the breakage in jpeg is much *much* more common 
than changes to default USE.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-18, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 02:43 on Thursday 18 November 2010, Walter 
> Dnes did opine thusly:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 02:00:48AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote
>> 
>> > If you then mentioned that their defaults broke Dale's setup, they'd
>> > likely answer "Who's Dale?" followed shortly by "None of us have
>> > hardware like Dale to test. Sorry 'bout that. Set USE=-hal"
>> 
>>   Of course the USE flag advice is given *AFTER* the new flag breaks
>> your system.  That's why I use "-*" at the beginning of my USE in
>> /etc/make.conf.  I never found out whether hal would break my system<G>.
>> If Dale had used "-*" his X would not have broken, even if some other
>> ebuild pulled it onto the machine as a hard-coded dependancy.
>
> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what the 
> devs do.

Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?

-- 
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Stroller]

On 18/11/2010, at 1:46am, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> ...
>> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what the 
>> devs do.
> 
> Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?

Yes, if you're patient he'll give you [1].

[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-18, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>
> On 18/11/2010, at 1:46am, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what the 
>>> devs do.
>> 
>> Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?
>
> Yes, if you're patient he'll give you [1].

I still I don't get it.  What is "[1]" supposed to mean?

-- 
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Dale]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2010-11-18, Stroller<stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk>  wrote:
>    
>> On 18/11/2010, at 1:46am, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>      
>>>> ...
>>>> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what the
>>>> devs do.
>>>>          
>>> Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?
>>>        
>> Yes, if you're patient he'll give you [1].
>>      
> I still I don't get it.  What is "[1]" supposed to mean?
>
>    

Usually it means there is a footnote with a link at the bottom.  It 
appears we will have to be patient with him on that too.  lol

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Stroller]

On 18/11/2010, at 3:59am, Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2010-11-18, Stroller <stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> On 18/11/2010, at 1:46am, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what the 
>>>> devs do.
>>> 
>>> Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?
>> 
>> Yes, if you're patient he'll give you [1].
> 
> I still I don't get it.  What is "[1]" supposed to mean?

Why, one hint, of course!

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 05:47 on Thursday 18 November 2010, Stroller 
did opine thusly:

> On 18/11/2010, at 1:46am, Grant Edwards wrote:
> >> ...
> >> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what
> >> the devs do.
> > 
> > Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?
> 
> Yes, if you're patient he'll give you [1].


Note to self: stop composing mails at 3 in the morning.

So it *should* have gone like this:

======
Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what the 
devs do.

<insert arb stuff here>

[1] Open Your F*cking Eyes And Look
======


It's an old hangover from my bench techies days when I had juniors who 
insisted on assuming they knew the cause of a problem even before they'd taken 
the covers off the faulty unit

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Sebastian Beßler]

Am 18.11.2010 02:46, schrieb Grant Edwards:
> On 2010-11-18, Alan McKinnon<alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>  wrote:
 >
>> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what the
>> devs do.
>
> Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?
>

Google says this: >>"OYFEAL": Open your fscking eyes and look<<

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 11:31 on Thursday 18 November 2010, Sebastian 
Beßler did opine thusly:

> Am 18.11.2010 02:46, schrieb Grant Edwards:
> > On 2010-11-18, Alan McKinnon<alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what
> >> the devs do.
> > 
> > Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?
> 
> Google says this: >>"OYFEAL": Open your fscking eyes and look<<


Where'd you find that?

It shouldn't be on the intarwebs, I made it up about 10 years ago and never 
posted it anywhere till now :-)


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Sebastian Beßler]

Am 18.11.2010 13:47, schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 11:31 on Thursday 18 November 2010, Sebastian
> Beßler did opine thusly:
>
>> Am 18.11.2010 02:46, schrieb Grant Edwards:
>>> On 2010-11-18, Alan McKinnon<alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not what
>>>> the devs do.
>>>
>>> Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?
>>
>> Google says this:>>"OYFEAL": Open your fscking eyes and look<<
>
>
> Where'd you find that?

https://groups.google.com/group/linux.gentoo.user/msg/3e1d8a230d9834ac?hl=uz

It is from 2009

Greetings

Sebastian Beßler

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 16:12 on Thursday 18 November 2010, Sebastian 
Beßler did opine thusly:

> Am 18.11.2010 13:47, schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 11:31 on Thursday 18 November 2010,
> > Sebastian
> > 
> > Beßler did opine thusly:
> >> Am 18.11.2010 02:46, schrieb Grant Edwards:
> >>> On 2010-11-18, Alan McKinnon<alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>   wrote:
> >>>> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not
> >>>> what the devs do.
> >>> 
> >>> Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?
> >> 
> >> Google says this:>>"OYFEAL": Open your fscking eyes and look<<
> > 
> > Where'd you find that?
> 
> https://groups.google.com/group/linux.gentoo.user/msg/3e1d8a230d9834ac?hl=u
> z
> 
> It is from 2009

I must be getting old and forgetful. Forgot about that post.

What were we talking about again?

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Sebastian Beßler]

Am 18.11.2010 15:21, schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 16:12 on Thursday 18 November 2010, Sebastian
> Beßler did opine thusly:
>
>> Am 18.11.2010 13:47, schrieb Alan McKinnon:
>>> Apparently, though unproven, at 11:31 on Thursday 18 November 2010,
>>> Sebastian
>>>
>>> Beßler did opine thusly:
>>>> Am 18.11.2010 02:46, schrieb Grant Edwards:
>>>>> On 2010-11-18, Alan McKinnon<alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>    wrote:
>>>>>> Looks like the *actual* problem is non-application of OYFEAL[1],not
>>>>>> what the devs do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Google doesn't seem to know what OYFEAL means.  Do we get any hints?
>>>>
>>>> Google says this:>>"OYFEAL": Open your fscking eyes and look<<
>>>
>>> Where'd you find that?
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/group/linux.gentoo.user/msg/3e1d8a230d9834ac?hl=u
>> z
>>
>> It is from 2009
>
> I must be getting old and forgetful. Forgot about that post.
>
> What were we talking about again?
>

That is why we have the internet.. It never forgets ;-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:21:23 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> What were we talking about again?

OYFEAL


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 1: Microsoft Works


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Walter Dnes]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 04:21:23PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote

> I must be getting old and forgetful. Forgot about that post.
> 
> What were we talking about again?

  They say that memory is the second thing to go; I forget what the
first is.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Walter Dnes]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 02:59:32AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote

> How would your method of handling USE have assisted in preventing
> that breakage? Please note that the breakage in jpeg is much *much*
> more common than changes to default USE.

  This is not about ipv6 or hal or dbus in particular.  My approach is
to only have the bare minimum necessary flags, and not allow *ANY NEW
AND UNNECESSARY OPTIONAL* flags.  Any additional extra "stuff" involves
additional bloat and complexity, and a chance of breakage.  If Dale had
had "-*", a *NEW OPTIONAL* use flag (e.g. hal) would not have been
implemented for X.  Some other ebuild that had hal as a hard-coded
dependancy might have pulled it, but X still wouldn't have linked to it.

  I can't fully browse the web without jpeg enebled, I get occasional
jpeg photos in emails, and the camera club I belong to insists on all
uploads being in jpeg format.  So yes, jpeg is necessary *FOR ME*.  I
accept it into USE, because it of that.  So far, I've done OK without
ipv6, or hal, or dbus, and I will continue to do without them until/
unless they offer me additional functionality that I want/need.

  I do get the occasional complaint from emerge when application A
requires that application B be emerged with a specific USE flag that I
don't have enabled.  If I want/need application A, then I will insert
the required flag for application B into /etc/package.use.  Once I see
several entries for that flag in /etc/package.use, I'll run...

USE="flag" emerge -pv --update --newuse world

...and see what else links to it.  If it doesn't look bad, I'll move the
flag into USE.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 22:14:13 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:

>   This is not about ipv6 or hal or dbus in particular.  My approach is
> to only have the bare minimum necessary flags, and not allow *ANY NEW
> AND UNNECESSARY OPTIONAL* flags.  Any additional extra "stuff" involves
> additional bloat and complexity, and a chance of breakage.  If Dale had
> had "-*", a *NEW OPTIONAL* use flag (e.g. hal) would not have been
> implemented for X.

Except that Dale almost certainly would have had hal in USE because KDE
needed it, so he would still have been bitten when HAL support was added
to XOrg.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Das Internet is nicht fuer gefingerclicken und giffengrabben. Ist easy
droppenpacket der routers und overloaden der backbone mit der spammen
und der me-tooen. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das
mausklicken sichtseeren keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets
muss; relaxen und watchen das cursorblinken.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 22:14:13 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
>
>    
>>    This is not about ipv6 or hal or dbus in particular.  My approach is
>> to only have the bare minimum necessary flags, and not allow *ANY NEW
>> AND UNNECESSARY OPTIONAL* flags.  Any additional extra "stuff" involves
>> additional bloat and complexity, and a chance of breakage.  If Dale had
>> had "-*", a *NEW OPTIONAL* use flag (e.g. hal) would not have been
>> implemented for X.
>>      
> Except that Dale almost certainly would have had hal in USE because KDE
> needed it, so he would still have been bitten when HAL support was added
> to XOrg.
>
>    

Yep, I added it globally, like was recommended anyway, and it worked for 
everything except xorg.  After getting to a console so I could emerge 
something, I disabled it for xorg but left it enabled for everything 
else, including KDE.

Actually, hal works OK for everything else.  Sometimes k3b will have a 
hick up or puke out a error about it but usually a recompile of k3b 
fixes that.  Well, I had to reemerge cdrtools once but anyway.  Those 
things happen.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Stroller]

On 18/11/2010, at 12:43am, Walter Dnes wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 02:00:48AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote
> 
>> If you then mentioned that their defaults broke Dale's setup, they'd
>> likely answer "Who's Dale?" followed shortly by "None of us have
>> hardware like Dale to test. Sorry 'bout that. Set USE=-hal"
> 
>  Of course the USE flag advice is given *AFTER* the new flag breaks
> your system.  That's why I use "-*" at the beginning of my USE in
> /etc/make.conf.  I never found out whether hal would break my system<G>.
> If Dale had used "-*" his X would not have broken, even if some other
> ebuild pulled it onto the machine as a hard-coded dependancy.

Uh, except sometimes a USE flag is added to a package and set to USE=foo by default, with USE=foo maintaining the original behaviour. Therefore by selecting "USE=-*" you may be changing your system's behaviour.

You claim to be "a control freak" but you seem to be doing this to avoid the "chore" of properly inspecting USE flags each time you emerge. If you `emerge --pretend` before every update you make, you would see what's changed! What's the point in running `emerge --pretend` if you don't look at it!?!? Further to the aside in the email I sent a minute or two ago, all the changed USE flags in Portage's output show up in bright yellow or green, BTW, so they're easy to spot.

I have a feeling that we're not going to convince you that you're doing things "wrong", so I apologise if my tone sounds strident. I beg you to try it.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Walter Dnes]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 04:52:39AM +0000, Stroller wrote

> You claim to be "a control freak" but you seem to be doing this to
> avoid the "chore" of properly inspecting USE flags each time you
> emerge. If you `emerge --pretend` before every update you make,
> you would see what's changed! What's the point in running `emerge
> --pretend` if you don't look at it!?!? Further to the aside in
> the email I sent a minute or two ago, all the changed USE flags in
> Portage's output show up in bright yellow or green, BTW, so they're
> easy to spot.

  Actually, I do run "emerge -pv --update world" before doing the real
thing.  As I mentioned in another email, my minimalist approach to USE
flags occasionally results in emerge complaining that application A
requires that application B be emarged with a flag that I don't have
enabled.  In that case, I do have to do something.  I always take a
quick scan to see what has changed.  I realize that being a
control-freak and micro-managing my system takes a bit of extra work,
but it's worth it for me.  "Robo-emerging" is what looks risky to me.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Stroller]

On 16/11/2010, at 10:28pm, David W Noon wrote:
> ...
> Again, the defaults are chosen for stability with Gentoo first;
> secondly, there are no fixed defaults -- or "out-of-box" configuration
> -- from upstream, as the USE flags are simply parameterizing
> the ./configure script via autotools.

I'm not familiar with autotools specifically, but back in the days before I used Gentoo, when there were a couple of packages that weren't in my distro's package manager that I compiled "by hand" I used to just do something like `./configure && make`.

I could choose to select a different configuration by saying something like `./configure --with-ipv6`, but there were usually 30 or so options for which I made no selection.

Surely what `./configure` does if I don't make any choice about its compilation option is to be considered a "default"?

Stroller.

[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-16, David W Noon <dwnoon@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Again, the defaults are chosen for stability with Gentoo first;
> secondly, there are no fixed defaults -- or "out-of-box" configuration
> -- from upstream,

If that's true, then it is the developers rather than "upstream" that
decided to use HAL for Xorg configuration.

You can't have it both ways:

 1) There is no default configuration from upstream.

 2) The default configuration (use HAL) came from upstream.

> The only distributions that have fixed configurations are the binary
> ones.  Any package that is built from source -- and under Gentoo that
> means almost everything -- is intrinsically configurable by the
> person building the binaries.  To extend your "out-of-box" analogy:
> source code doesn't arrive in a box, but binaries (.rpm, .deb, etc.)
> do.

It seems to me that the "configure" script with no command-line
options to enable/disable features is a "box" that contains the
default configuration.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm not an Iranian!!
                                  at               I voted for Dianne
                              gmail.com            Feinstein!!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[David W Noon]

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On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 16:40:02 +0100, Grant Edwards wrote about
[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?:

>On 2010-11-16, David W Noon <dwnoon@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Again, the defaults are chosen for stability with Gentoo first;
>> secondly, there are no fixed defaults -- or "out-of-box"
>> configuration -- from upstream,
>
>If that's true, then it is the developers rather than "upstream" that
>decided to use HAL for Xorg configuration.
>
>You can't have it both ways:
>
> 1) There is no default configuration from upstream.
>
> 2) The default configuration (use HAL) came from upstream.

The defaults for all ebuilds are set by the Gentoo developer who writes
the ebuild.  We cannot blame the *default* nature of HAL in X.Org on
the upstream developers; we can blame them for using HAL in the first
place -- if blame must be ascribed.

>> The only distributions that have fixed configurations are the binary
>> ones.  Any package that is built from source -- and under Gentoo that
>> means almost everything -- is intrinsically configurable by the
>> person building the binaries.  To extend your "out-of-box" analogy:
>> source code doesn't arrive in a box, but binaries (.rpm, .deb, etc.)
>> do.
>
>It seems to me that the "configure" script with no command-line
>options to enable/disable features is a "box" that contains the
>default configuration.

The only time a ./configure script runs without options inside a Gentoo
ebuild is when there are no options available.  An ebuild typically
specifies all available options as enabled/disabled or some value.

Indeed, if you think about coding an ebuild where one ignores *any* of
the available options, one is asking for trouble in the future if
upstream changes the configuration script.  That's simply not the right
way to code an ebuild.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[David W Noon]

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On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 15:00:01 +0100, Stroller wrote about Re:
[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?:

[snip]
>Surely what `./configure` does if I don't make any choice about its
>compilation option is to be considered a "default"?

Gentoo ebuilds do not run ./configure without options, unless there are
no options available.
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 16:48:30 +0000, David W Noon wrote:

> >Surely what `./configure` does if I don't make any choice about its
> >compilation option is to be considered a "default"?  
> 
> Gentoo ebuilds do not run ./configure without options, unless there are
> no options available.

No, but they generally set the USE defaults to give the same settings as
running ./configure with none. In other words, they are following the
upstream defaults.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

ASSISTANT MANAGER: Feminine form of the word manager (q.v.).

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[gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2010-11-17, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 16:48:30 +0000, David W Noon wrote:
>
>> >Surely what `./configure` does if I don't make any choice about its
>> >compilation option is to be considered a "default"?  
>> 
>> Gentoo ebuilds do not run ./configure without options, unless there are
>> no options available.

That's irrelevent. You said upstream doesn't come with a "default"
configuration.  We're saying it does, and that it's defined by the
default options in the configure script.  Even if Gentoo doesn't use
that default configuration it doens't meant that it doesn't exist.

> No, but they generally set the USE defaults to give the same settings
> as running ./configure with none. In other words, they are following
> the upstream defaults.

We seem to be going around in circles. :)

The merits of using HAL for Xorg config aside, I am still curious
about where the "default" configuration for a package comes from.  Is
there a written policy somewhere that tells devs how to set the
default USE flags?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm having a MID-WEEK
                                  at               CRISIS!
                              gmail.com            

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 23:18 on Wednesday 17 November 2010, Grant 
Edwards did opine thusly:

> > No, but they generally set the USE defaults to give the same settings
> > as running ./configure with none. In other words, they are following
> > the upstream defaults.
> 
> We seem to be going around in circles. :)
> 
> The merits of using HAL for Xorg config aside, I am still curious
> about where the "default" configuration for a package comes from.  Is
> there a written policy somewhere that tells devs how to set the
> default USE flags?

All the clues are in

http://devmanual.gentoo.org/index.html

but it requires a gigantic dose of brain smarts and think-for-yourself. 
Developers of any sort have to be in the upper-IQ range of humanity (otherwise 
they couldn't develop shit) so this is a fairly safe assumption.

You will notice that the tree contains relatively few Gentoo-maintained patch 
files (compared to say Ubuntu and Red Hat). Gentoo prefers to get patches from 
upstream or some other distro. The manual is full of references to get patches 
and bugs registered and fixed upstream instead of in the tree.

Now, the only sane way this could work in a sane ecosystem is to track 
upstream as close as possible while not breaking things. An ebuild maintainer 
sets the USE flags in whatever suitable way {,s}he feels like to make that 
come about. The entire spirit in which the manual is written communicates that 
concept strongly.

Very little of this is documented in an idiot-tree do-this-now-do-that fashion 
because:

a. our devs are not idiots.
b. our devs are assumed to have smarts upstairs.
c. our devs are assumed to only pretend to be pedantic geeky gits who nit-pick 
about words, and not to actually *be* like that their entire life 24/7/365/75. 
In other words, they can think with a concept and not need instructions.
d. they do not need a manual to know how to breathe either. Same principle.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 00:42:52 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> c. our devs are assumed to only pretend to be pedantic geeky gits who
> nit-pick about words, and not to actually *be* like that their entire
> life 24/7/365/75. 

Indeed. After all, if they were really pedantic, they would point out that
you should have written either 24/7/52/75 or 24/365/75 :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[J. Roeleveld]

On Thursday 18 November 2010 12:37:16 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 00:42:52 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > c. our devs are assumed to only pretend to be pedantic geeky gits who
> > nit-pick about words, and not to actually *be* like that their entire
> > life 24/7/365/75.
> 
> Indeed. After all, if they were really pedantic, they would point out that
> you should have written either 24/7/52/75 or 24/365/75 :P

<pedantic mode>
Or that you both seem to forget the actual reason for the use of leap-years.. 
:P
</pedantic mode>

Anyway, I do hope to live past my 75th birthday ;)

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 12:43:40 +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote:

> > Indeed. After all, if they were really pedantic, they would point out
> > that you should have written either 24/7/52/75 or 24/365/75 :P  
> 
> <pedantic mode>
> Or that you both seem to forget the actual reason for the use of
> leap-years.. :P
> </pedantic mode>

I thought the real reason for leap years was to boot the turnover of the
wedding industry.

> Anyway, I do hope to live past my 75th birthday ;)

Someone that pedantic is unlikely to get more than halfway there :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If you can smile when things go wrong then you have someone in mind to
blame.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[J. Roeleveld]

On Thursday 18 November 2010 12:52:40 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 12:43:40 +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > > Indeed. After all, if they were really pedantic, they would point out
> > > that you should have written either 24/7/52/75 or 24/365/75 :P
> > 
> > <pedantic mode>
> > Or that you both seem to forget the actual reason for the use of
> > leap-years.. :P
> > </pedantic mode>
> 
> I thought the real reason for leap years was to boot the turnover of the
> wedding industry.

Oh? How does that work?
> 
> > Anyway, I do hope to live past my 75th birthday ;)
> 
> Someone that pedantic is unlikely to get more than halfway there :)

:)  Am glad I'm not that pedantic then :)

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:32:42 +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote:

> > I thought the real reason for leap years was to boot the turnover of
> > the wedding industry.  

s/boot/boost/
 
> Oh? How does that work?

There's a tradition here that women propose to men on the leap day, which
is why most men go into hiding on that day thereby boosting the profits
of pubs and other hiding places.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"We are Microsoft of Borg. Prepare to...."
The application "assimilation" has caused a General Protection Fault
and must exit immediately.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 15:18 on Thursday 18 November 2010, Neil 
Bothwick did opine thusly:

> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:32:42 +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > > I thought the real reason for leap years was to boot the turnover of
> > > the wedding industry.
> 
> s/boot/boost/
> 
> > Oh? How does that work?
> 
> There's a tradition here that women propose to men on the leap day, which
> is why most men go into hiding on that day thereby boosting the profits
> of pubs and other hiding places.

I fail to see how the pub's profits are boosted at all by this.

Aren't they just doing exactly the same thing they do every other day of the 
year?

<ducks>

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[J. Roeleveld]

On Thursday 18 November 2010 14:18:55 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:32:42 +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > > I thought the real reason for leap years was to boot the turnover of
> > > the wedding industry.
> 
> s/boot/boost/
> 
> > Oh? How does that work?
> 
> There's a tradition here that women propose to men on the leap day, which
> is why most men go into hiding on that day thereby boosting the profits
> of pubs and other hiding places.

One could actually argue that the profits of pubs are reduced because then the 
men don't take the women to the pubs. And that the pubs then miss half of 
their customers.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:33:45 +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote:

> > There's a tradition here that women propose to men on the leap day,
> > which is why most men go into hiding on that day thereby boosting the
> > profits of pubs and other hiding places.  
> 
> One could actually argue that the profits of pubs are reduced because
> then the men don't take the women to the pubs. And that the pubs then
> miss half of their customers.

Only if one were a pedant :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If at first you don't succeed you'll get lots of advice.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Thursday 18 November 2010 13:37:39 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:33:45 +0100, J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > One could actually argue that the profits of pubs are reduced
> > because then the men don't take the women to the pubs. And that
> > the pubs then miss half of their customers.
> 
> Only if one were a pedant :P

And then one would have missed the point that, when a man takes his 
woman to the pub, he spends less than if he'd gone alone.

-- 
Rgds
Peter.          Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 13:37 on Thursday 18 November 2010, Neil 
Bothwick did opine thusly:

> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 00:42:52 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > c. our devs are assumed to only pretend to be pedantic geeky gits who
> > nit-pick about words, and not to actually *be* like that their entire
> > life 24/7/365/75.
> 
> Indeed. After all, if they were really pedantic, they would point out that
> you should have written either 24/7/52/75 or 24/365/75 :P

y'know, you have this very annoying habit of catching me out every time I talk 
shit in public 

:-)


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:42:39 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > Indeed. After all, if they were really pedantic, they would point out
> > that you should have written either 24/7/52/75 or 24/365/75 :P  
> 
> y'know, you have this very annoying habit of catching me out every time
> I talk shit in public 

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach, find fault in others.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If it ain't broke, break it and charge for repair.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Wednesday 17 November 2010 22:42:52 Alan McKinnon wrote:

> Developers of any sort have to be in the upper-IQ range of humanity
> (otherwise they couldn't develop shit)

Ah! Now I know where it came from...

-- 
Rgds
Peter.          Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 13:07 on Friday 19 November 2010, Peter 
Humphrey did opine thusly:

> On Wednesday 17 November 2010 22:42:52 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Developers of any sort have to be in the upper-IQ range of humanity
> > (otherwise they couldn't develop shit)
> 
> Ah! Now I know where it came from...

Wise-ass :-)

We can use wise-asses like you here. Can I set up an interview?
You'll have to relocate to Africa though ;-)


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Peter Humphrey]

On Friday 19 November 2010 13:41:32 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> Apparently, though unproven, at 13:07 on Friday 19 November 2010,
> Peter Humphrey did opine thusly:
> > On Wednesday 17 November 2010 22:42:52 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > Developers of any sort have to be in the upper-IQ range of
> > > humanity (otherwise they couldn't develop shit)
> > 
> > Ah! Now I know where it came from...
> 
> Wise-ass :-)
> 
> We can use wise-asses like you here. Can I set up an interview?
> You'll have to relocate to Africa though ;-)

Odd you should say that. I was offered a job in Swaziland in about '69. 
It came to naught though. Was that a tragic missed opportunity or an 
escape by the skin of my teeth?

-- 
Rgds
Peter.          Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How to configure thochpad sensitivity (using hal)?

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 17:28 on Friday 19 November 2010, Peter 
Humphrey did opine thusly:

> On Friday 19 November 2010 13:41:32 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > Apparently, though unproven, at 13:07 on Friday 19 November 2010,
> > 
> > Peter Humphrey did opine thusly:
> > > On Wednesday 17 November 2010 22:42:52 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > > Developers of any sort have to be in the upper-IQ range of
> > > > humanity (otherwise they couldn't develop shit)
> > > 
> > > Ah! Now I know where it came from...
> > 
> > Wise-ass :-)
> > 
> > We can use wise-asses like you here. Can I set up an interview?
> > You'll have to relocate to Africa though ;-)
> 
> Odd you should say that. I was offered a job in Swaziland in about '69.
> It came to naught though. Was that a tragic missed opportunity or an
> escape by the skin of my teeth?

The latter methinks.

Unless you are thrilled by the sight of bare-breasted Nguni maidens attired 
thusly in public, in which case the former :-)


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com