[gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Alex Schuster]

Hi there!

I want to monitor the power status of my hard drives, so I wrote a little
script that gives me this output:

sda: standby 
sdb: standby 
sdc: active/idle 32°C
sdd: active/idle 37°C

This script is called every minute via an fcron entry, output goes into a
log file, and I use the file monitor plasmoid to watch this log file in
KDE.

It's working fine, but  also monitor my syslog in another file monitor
plamoid, and now I get lots of these entries:

Aug 21 14:21:06 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session opened for user root by (uid=0)
Aug 21 14:21:06 [fcron] Job /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> /var/log/hdstate started for user root (pid 24483)
Aug 21 14:21:08 [fcron] Job /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> /var/log/hdstate completed
Aug 21 14:21:08 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session closed for user root

There is a nolog option for fcrontab, but I still get this output every
minute:

Aug 21 15:10:06 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session opened for user root by (uid=0)
Aug 21 15:10:08 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session closed for user root

Hmmm... could it be that these entries do not come from fcron itself, but
from PAM? Do I need to look there so suppress them? And if so, would this
make sense? I want to suppress only these specific logs, not other stuff
that might be interesting.

Any ideas? It's nothing important, but maybe there's a simple solution,
and I like to learn. Don't knwo much about this PAM stuff yet.
Maybe I'll just start a background job for that instead of using fcron.

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 15:25 on Saturday 21 August 2010, Alex 
Schuster did opine thusly:

> Hi there!
> 
> I want to monitor the power status of my hard drives, so I wrote a little
> script that gives me this output:
> 
> sda: standby
> sdb: standby
> sdc: active/idle 32°C
> sdd: active/idle 37°C
> 
> This script is called every minute via an fcron entry, output goes into a
> log file, and I use the file monitor plasmoid to watch this log file in
> KDE.
> 
> It's working fine, but  also monitor my syslog in another file monitor
> plamoid, and now I get lots of these entries:
> 
> Aug 21 14:21:06 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session opened for user
> root by (uid=0) Aug 21 14:21:06 [fcron] Job /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >>
> /var/log/hdstate started for user root (pid 24483) Aug 21 14:21:08 [fcron]
> Job /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> /var/log/hdstate completed Aug 21 14:21:08
> [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session closed for user root
> 
> There is a nolog option for fcrontab, but I still get this output every
> minute:

That will tell fcron not to log stuff. 
It will not tell other apps to not stuff

> Aug 21 15:10:06 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session opened for user
> root by (uid=0) Aug 21 15:10:08 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session
> closed for user root
> 
> Hmmm... could it be that these entries do not come from fcron itself, but
> from PAM? 

Yes. 

Configure your syslogger to devnull these specific entries.
All three common sysloggers (syslogd,syslog-ng,rsyslog) all come with 
extensive documentation on how to do this.



-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Alex Schuster]

Alan McKinnon writes:

> Apparently, though unproven, at 15:25 on Saturday 21 August 2010, Alex
> Schuster did opine thusly:

> > There is a nolog option for fcrontab, but I still get this output
> > every minute:
> That will tell fcron not to log stuff.
> It will not tell other apps to not stuff

Right. But I did not know that there are more things involved than cron 
itself and the command I am calling. This PAM stuff is new to me, but 
maybe I just never noticed it before in my logs. It's no problem when it's 
not coming every minute.

> > Aug 21 15:10:06 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session opened for
> > user root by (uid=0) Aug 21 15:10:08 [fcron]
> > pam_unix(fcron:session): session closed for user root
> > 
> > Hmmm... could it be that these entries do not come from fcron itself,
> > but from PAM?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Configure your syslogger to devnull these specific entries.
> All three common sysloggers (syslogd,syslog-ng,rsyslog) all come with
> extensive documentation on how to do this.

Hmm, okay. I think there is no perfect solution. When I disable logging of 
this PAM stuff, I can only disable it completely, but what if I want to 
keep the logging from other jobs that are not run that often? Although for 
this case I can use the direct logging of fcron (without nolog), so this 
is quite academic. Can anybody still follow me? But thanks for the 
clarification.

Meanwhile, I have the script running in /etc/conf.d/local.start, so I have 
no syslog output at all and I also can have more updates than only once 
per minute.

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Alan McKinnon]

Apparently, though unproven, at 00:12 on Tuesday 24 August 2010, Alex Schuster 
did opine thusly:

> > Configure your syslogger to devnull these specific entries.
> > All three common sysloggers (syslogd,syslog-ng,rsyslog) all come with
> > extensive documentation on how to do this.
> 
> Hmm, okay. I think there is no perfect solution. When I disable logging of 
> this PAM stuff, I can only disable it completely, but what if I want to 
> keep the logging from other jobs that are not run that often? Although for 
> this case I can use the direct logging of fcron (without nolog), so this 
> is quite academic. Can anybody still follow me? But thanks for the 
> clarification.


I use syslog-ng and that allows you to write a custom rule looking for the app 
that generated the log "[fcron]" and a string in the log entry 
"pam_unix(fcron:session)". You can then filter it out.

However you do it, the solution is quite fragile and very specific to your 
setup. A general solution that works everywhere will be difficult to form.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Stroller]

On 21 Aug 2010, at 14:25, Alex Schuster wrote:
> ...
> I want to monitor the power status of my hard drives, so I wrote a  
> little
> script that gives me this output:
>
> sda: standby
> sdb: standby
> sdc: active/idle 32°C
> sdd: active/idle 37°C
>
> This script is called every minute via an fcron entry, output goes  
> into a
> log file, and I use the file monitor plasmoid to watch this log file  
> in
> KDE.
>
> It's working fine, but  also monitor my syslog in another file monitor
> plamoid, and now I get lots of these entries:
>
> Aug 21 14:21:06 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session opened for  
> user root by (uid=0)
> Aug 21 14:21:06 [fcron] Job /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> /var/log/ 
> hdstate started for user root (pid 24483)
> Aug 21 14:21:08 [fcron] Job /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> /var/log/ 
> hdstate completed
> Aug 21 14:21:08 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session closed for  
> user root


#!/bin/bash
while true
do
   for drive in a b c d
   do
      /usr/sbin/smartctl /dev/sd$drive --whatever >> /var/log/hdstate
   done
sleep 60
done


I would personally update more often than this, and my concern would  
be that if the process fails then your plasmoid isn't showing the  
correct data.

I presume this is the same with your current setup: if cron dies then  
the current temperature will not be read to file, and the plasmoid  
will continue reading the last lines in /var/log/hdstate - the drive  
can overheat without you knowing about it.

So I would expect there to be a better "plasmid" for this task. I'm  
completely unfamiliar with plasmids, but what you really want is a  
plasmid that itself runs a script and displays the stdout on your  
screen. That way if there's no data, or an error, then _you see that  
in the plasmid_, instead of silently ignoring it (as you may be at  
present).

The easiest (but dumb) way to handle this is to add the date to your  
plasmid's display so that at least you can see that something's wrong  
if it doesn't match the clock. A better way is not to have to watch a  
status monitor at all, and just have a script running that emails you  
if the temperature is above a specified range.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Alex Schuster]

Stroller writes:

> On 21 Aug 2010, at 14:25, Alex Schuster wrote:
> > ...
> > I want to monitor the power status of my hard drives, so I wrote a
> > little
> > script that gives me this output:
> > 
> > sda: standby
> > sdb: standby
> > sdc: active/idle 32°C
> > sdd: active/idle 37°C
> > 
> > This script is called every minute via an fcron entry, output goes
> > into a log file, and I use the file monitor plasmoid to watch this log
> > file in KDE.
> > 
> > It's working fine, but  also monitor my syslog in another file
> > monitor plamoid, and now I get lots of these entries:
> > 
> > Aug 21 14:21:06 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session opened for
> > user root by (uid=0)
> > Aug 21 14:21:06 [fcron] Job /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> /var/log/
> > hdstate started for user root (pid 24483)
> > Aug 21 14:21:08 [fcron] Job /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> /var/log/
> > hdstate completed
> > Aug 21 14:21:08 [fcron] pam_unix(fcron:session): session closed for
> > user root
> 
> #!/bin/bash
> while true
> do
>    for drive in a b c d
>    do
>       /usr/sbin/smartctl /dev/sd$drive --whatever >> /var/log/hdstate
>    done
> sleep 60
> done

I use hdparm and hddtemp:

for hd in sda sdb sdc sdd
do
	str=$( /sbin/hdparm -C /dev/$hd )
	state=${str##*is:  }
	if [[ $state == active/idle ]] && [[ $hd =~ sd[c] ]]
	then
		temp=$( /usr/sbin/hddtemp -q /dev/$hd )
		temp=${temp% or *}
		temp=${temp##* }
	else
		temp=
	fi
	echo "$hd: $state $temp"
done

Unfortunately, reading the temperature makes a drive in standby spin up, 
and prevents automatic spindown after a while of idle time. So now I ask 
for the temperature only on my system drive, the others should sleep most 
of the time anyway.


> I would personally update more often than this, and my concern would
> be that if the process fails then your plasmoid isn't showing the
> correct data.
> 
> I presume this is the same with your current setup: if cron dies then
> the current temperature will not be read to file, and the plasmoid
> will continue reading the last lines in /var/log/hdstate - the drive
> can overheat without you knowing about it.

Nah, it's really not that important for me. I show the temperature just 
for the fun of it, and for extreme temperatures I have smartd running, see 
below.
I'm more interested in the active/standby state. I just added two old 
additonal IDE drives for additional backups, and I want them to be silent 
most of the time. So I wrote a little script to show the status so I see 
when they spin up again (and they do this sometimes), and used fcron to 
get the data into a log file that the plasmoids shows.

The problem with cron is that I get those cron logs I do not like, and 
that the update time of 60 seconds is a little long. Running the script in 
a loop, started in .kde4/Autostart, would be better, but as a user I have 
no permission to call hdparm or hdtemp. I do not want to be part of the 
disk group, and when using sudo I would get the logs by sudo I wanted to 
avoid. So now I SUID'ed hdparm and hddtemp, changed the group to wheel and 
disabled execution for others. cron problem not solved, but workarounded.


> So I would expect there to be a better "plasmid" for this task. I'm
> completely unfamiliar with plasmids, but what you really want is a
> plasmid that itself runs a script and displays the stdout on your
> screen. That way if there's no data, or an error, then _you see that
> in the plasmid_, instead of silently ignoring it (as you may be at
> present).
> 
> The easiest (but dumb) way to handle this is to add the date to your
> plasmid's display so that at least you can see that something's wrong
> if it doesn't match the clock. A better way is not to have to watch a
> status monitor at all, and just have a script running that emails you
> if the temperature is above a specified range.

I have smartd running, which should send me mails about such things. For 
each drive, I have a line like this in /etc/smartd.conf:

/dev/sdc -a -n standby -o on -S on -W 5,40,45 \
         -s (S/../.././12|L/../../06/06) -m root@wonkology.org

This does some regular health checks on the drive, when it is not in 
standby mode. Temperature changes of more than 5 degrees and temperatures 
of 40 degrees or more are logged. I will receive an email when the 
temperature reaches 45 degrees, or when it reaches a new maximum. The 
maximum values are preserved across boot cycles (option -S). Every day at 
12:00, a short self test is scheduled, and a long self test each sunday on 
06:00.

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Stroller]

On 22 Aug 2010, at 11:26, Alex Schuster wrote:
> Stroller writes:
>>
>>
>> #!/bin/bash
>> while true
>> do
>>   for drive in a b c d
>>   do
>>      /usr/sbin/smartctl /dev/sd$drive --whatever >> /var/log/hdstate
>>   done
>> sleep 60
>> done
>
> I use hdparm and hddtemp:
>
> for hd in sda sdb sdc sdd
> do
> ...
> 	echo "$hd: $state $temp"
> done

The script with which you reply is missing the sleep 60 loop.

> ...
> The problem with cron is that I get those cron logs I do not like, and
> that the update time of 60 seconds is a little long. Running the  
> script in
> a loop, started in .kde4/Autostart, would be better, but as a user I  
> have
> no permission to call hdparm or hdtemp. I do not want to be part of  
> the
> disk group, and when using sudo I would get the logs by sudo I  
> wanted to
> avoid. So now I SUID'ed hdparm and hddtemp, changed the group to  
> wheel and
> disabled execution for others. cron problem not solved, but  
> workarounded.

Running a script which contains `while true ... sleep 60` will cause  
only a single logging action. You can run it as root at startup using / 
etc/conf.d/local.start and have the file world readable.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Stroller]

On 22 Aug 2010, at 20:00, Stroller wrote:
> On 22 Aug 2010, at 11:26, Alex Schuster wrote:
>> Stroller writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> #!/bin/bash
>>> while true
>>> do
>>>  for drive in a b c d
>>>  do
>>>     /usr/sbin/smartctl /dev/sd$drive --whatever >> /var/log/hdstate
>>>  done
>>> sleep 60
>>> done
>>
>> I use hdparm and hddtemp:
>>
>> for hd in sda sdb sdc sdd
>> do
>> ...
>> 	echo "$hd: $state $temp"
>> done
>
> The script with which you reply is missing the sleep 60 loop.
>
>> ...
>> The problem with cron is that I get those cron logs I do not like,  
>> and
>> that the update time of 60 seconds is a little long. Running the  
>> script in
>> a loop, started in .kde4/Autostart, would be better, but as a user  
>> I have
>> no permission to call hdparm or hdtemp. I do not want to be part of  
>> the
>> disk group, and when using sudo I would get the logs by sudo I  
>> wanted to
>> avoid. So now I SUID'ed hdparm and hddtemp, changed the group to  
>> wheel and
>> disabled execution for others. cron problem not solved, but  
>> workarounded.
>
> Running a script which contains `while true ... sleep 60` will cause  
> only a single logging action. You can run it as root at startup  
> using /etc/conf.d/local.start and have the file world readable.

Sorry, this wasn't very clear:

If your script contains `while true ... sleep 60` then you'll only  
need to run it once.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Alex Schuster]

Stroller writes:

> The script with which you reply is missing the sleep 60 loop.

No, it's only the script that outputs the drive's state. It's called by 
~/.kde4/Autostart/hdstate:

#!/bin/bash

while :
do
        /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> ~/log/hdstate.log
        sleep 10
done

> Running a script which contains `while true ... sleep 60` will cause
> only a single logging action. You can run it as root at startup using /
> etc/conf.d/local.start and have the file world readable.

Yeah, local.start woudl also be a good idea, without the need to setuid 
things. Maybe I'll change this.

BTW, my two additional drives spin up when I log into KDE. Weird, they are 
not even mounted.

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 1255 bytes --]

On Sunday 22 August 2010 22:39:47 Alex Schuster wrote:
> Stroller writes:
> > The script with which you reply is missing the sleep 60 loop.
> 
> No, it's only the script that outputs the drive's state. It's called by
> ~/.kde4/Autostart/hdstate:
> 
> #!/bin/bash
> 
> while :
> do
>         /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> ~/log/hdstate.log
>         sleep 10
> done
> 
> > Running a script which contains `while true ... sleep 60` will cause
> > only a single logging action. You can run it as root at startup using /
> > etc/conf.d/local.start and have the file world readable.
> 
> Yeah, local.start woudl also be a good idea, without the need to setuid
> things. Maybe I'll change this.
> 
> BTW, my two additional drives spin up when I log into KDE. Weird, they are
> not even mounted.

From KDE-4.4.4 the start up interferes with the hard drives:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/232044

I don't why but it does, messes up any settings that hdparm may have set up 
and p*sses me off.  o_O

As soon as KDE starts up (even when waking up from suspend to ram) it resets 
the drives.  I haven't found a way of telling it how to behave (i.e. by 
respecting existing settings in hdparm).
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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KDE and hdparm (was: Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging)

[Alex Schuster]

Mick writes:

> On Sunday 22 August 2010 22:39:47 Alex Schuster wrote:

> > BTW, my two additional drives spin up when I log into KDE. Weird,
> > they are not even mounted.
> 
> From KDE-4.4.4 the start up interferes with the hard drives:
> 
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/232044
> 
> I don't why but it does, messes up any settings that hdparm may have
> set up and p*sses me off.  o_O
> 
> As soon as KDE starts up (even when waking up from suspend to ram) it
> resets the drives.  I haven't found a way of telling it how to behave
> (i.e. by respecting existing settings in hdparm).

Argh, that's annoying. Thanks for the information. O well, first I 
setuid'ed hdparm to make it work as a user, then I reverted that back as I 
started it in /etc/init.d/local, and now I'm again setuid'ing it so I can 
set the settings from /etc/conf.d/hdparm in ~/.kde4/Autostart/.

I filed a bug: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=248905
You might want to vote for it so it gets some attention and will hopefully 
be fixed soon.

	Wonko

[gentoo-user] Re: KDE and hdparm

[Alex Schuster]

I wrote:

> Mick writes:

> > From KDE-4.4.4 the start up interferes with the hard drives:
> > 
> > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/232044
> > 
> > I don't why but it does, messes up any settings that hdparm may have
> > set up and p*sses me off.  o_O
> > 
> > As soon as KDE starts up (even when waking up from suspend to ram) it
> > resets the drives.  I haven't found a way of telling it how to behave
> > (i.e. by respecting existing settings in hdparm).
> 
> Argh, that's annoying. Thanks for the information. O well, first I
> setuid'ed hdparm to make it work as a user, then I reverted that back
> as I started it in /etc/init.d/local, and now I'm again setuid'ing it
> so I can set the settings from /etc/conf.d/hdparm in
> ~/.kde4/Autostart/.
> 
> I filed a bug: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=248905
> You might want to vote for it so it gets some attention and will
> hopefully be fixed soon.

They say it's probably specific to Gentoo, so I filed this bug:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334393

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: KDE and hdparm

[Mick]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 1240 bytes --]

On Wednesday 25 August 2010 10:54:23 Alex Schuster wrote:
> I wrote:
> > Mick writes:
> > > From KDE-4.4.4 the start up interferes with the hard drives:
> > > 
> > > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/232044
> > > 
> > > I don't why but it does, messes up any settings that hdparm may have
> > > set up and p*sses me off.  o_O
> > > 
> > > As soon as KDE starts up (even when waking up from suspend to ram) it
> > > resets the drives.  I haven't found a way of telling it how to behave
> > > (i.e. by respecting existing settings in hdparm).
> > 
> > Argh, that's annoying. Thanks for the information. O well, first I
> > setuid'ed hdparm to make it work as a user, then I reverted that back
> > as I started it in /etc/init.d/local, and now I'm again setuid'ing it
> > so I can set the settings from /etc/conf.d/hdparm in
> > ~/.kde4/Autostart/.
> > 
> > I filed a bug: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=248905
> > You might want to vote for it so it gets some attention and will
> > hopefully be fixed soon.
> 
> They say it's probably specific to Gentoo, so I filed this bug:
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334393
> 
> 	Wonko

Thank you!  I topped it up.  ;-)
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: KDE and hdparm (was: Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging)

[Mick]

On 24 August 2010 14:31, Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
> Mick writes:
>
>> On Sunday 22 August 2010 22:39:47 Alex Schuster wrote:
>
>> > BTW, my two additional drives spin up when I log into KDE. Weird,
>> > they are not even mounted.
>>
>> From KDE-4.4.4 the start up interferes with the hard drives:
>>
>> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/232044
>>
>> I don't why but it does, messes up any settings that hdparm may have
>> set up and p*sses me off.  o_O
>>
>> As soon as KDE starts up (even when waking up from suspend to ram) it
>> resets the drives.  I haven't found a way of telling it how to behave
>> (i.e. by respecting existing settings in hdparm).
>
> Argh, that's annoying. Thanks for the information. O well, first I
> setuid'ed hdparm to make it work as a user, then I reverted that back as I
> started it in /etc/init.d/local, and now I'm again setuid'ing it so I can
> set the settings from /etc/conf.d/hdparm in ~/.kde4/Autostart/.
>
> I filed a bug: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=248905
> You might want to vote for it so it gets some attention and will hopefully
> be fixed soon.

Thanks Wonko,

As reported on https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=334393 the workaround of:

touch /etc/pm/power.d/harddrive

stops KDE4.4.4/5 from messing up the existing hdparm settings (at
least as far as acoustic management is concerned).  At least now I
don't have to listen this Seagate sata rattling all day!  :-)
-- 
Regards,
Mick

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Stroller]

On 22 Aug 2010, at 22:39, Alex Schuster wrote:
> Stroller writes:
>
>> The script with which you reply is missing the sleep 60 loop.
>
> No, it's only the script that outputs the drive's state. It's called  
> by
> ~/.kde4/Autostart/hdstate:
>
> #!/bin/bash
>
> while :
> do
>        /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> ~/log/hdstate.log
>        sleep 10
> done

You wrote to the list telling us that you were running a script from  
cron every minute, and that this was causing your log file to fill up  
with messages from cron.

That is what I replied to.

Please do not move the goalposts halfway through the thread, and make  
it about something else unrelated. That is the perfect way to annoy  
people who are trying to help you.


Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Disable fcron logging

[Alex Schuster]

Stroller writes:

> On 22 Aug 2010, at 22:39, Alex Schuster wrote:
>> Stroller writes:
>>
>>> The script with which you reply is missing the sleep 60 loop.
>>
>> No, it's only the script that outputs the drive's state. It's called  
>> by ~/.kde4/Autostart/hdstate:
>>
>> #!/bin/bash
>>
>> while :
>> do
>>        /usr/local/sbin/hdstate >> ~/log/hdstate.log
>>        sleep 10
>> done
> 
> You wrote to the list telling us that you were running a script from  
> cron every minute, and that this was causing your log file to fill up  
> with messages from cron.
> 
> That is what I replied to.

Yes, I know. You had the good idea of simply putting the script into a
loop, and I actually followed your advice by now. When I posted my first
script in response to yours, I just wanted to show how I got the
relevant information in a more convenient format, using hdparm and
hddtemp, than using the direct output of smartctl. Just in case someone
else also likes this. Of yourse the outer loop was missing, but I did
not bother to add this trivial addition just for the posting here. It's
just the script I was already using in cron. And later in the posting I
mentioned that the script itself should be run in a loop instead of
cron, also because I could decrease the update interval.

Sorry, I probably should have made clear that the original question was
sort of solved.

> Please do not move the goalposts halfway through the thread, and make  
> it about something else unrelated. That is the perfect way to annoy  
> people who are trying to help you.

I'm sorry about this, I did not mean to annoy anyone. But I still do not 
really seewhat the problem is. You had the idea to do this without cron, 
and so I did. Well, I forgot a 'thank you' for the loop idea, this is 
true. Sorry again. Your ideas were appreciated as always.

	Wonko