[gentoo-user] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[gentoo-user] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Fabian Köster]

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Hi *,

I am currently trying to use Phonon and PulseAudio and have the following 
problem:

When I play some Video with a Non-KDE application like VLC everything is 
perfectly directed to the local PulseAudio running on my machine and i have 
the expected sound-output.

But when I use a KDE-Application like Kaffeine or Amarok there is no sound 
output although the stream is listed by pavucontrol. The volume-indicator for 
the stream does not show any activity.

Does anybody have an idea what is causing this misbehavior? Or any hint on 
debugging this? When I run pulseaudio -vvv I cannot see any suspicious output 
(see below)

Thanks in advance,
Fabian


=== My setup ===

media-sound/pulseaudio-0.9.21.1 was built with the following:
USE="X alsa asyncns avahi bluetooth caps dbus glib ipv6 tcpd udev -doc -gnome 
-hal -jack -libsamplerate -lirc (-oss) (-system-wide) -test"

kde-base/phonon-kde-4.4.3 was built with the following:
USE="alsa xine (-aqua) -debug (-kdeenablefinal) (-kdeprefix)"

media-sound/phonon-4.4.1 was built with the following:
USE="alsa pulseaudio xcb xine (-aqua) -debug -gstreamer"

== Output of pulseaudio -vvv when Kaffeine starts playing ===

I: client.c: Created 2 "Native client (UNIX socket client)"
D: protocol-native.c: Protocol version: remote 16, local 16
I: protocol-native.c: Got credentials: uid=1000 gid=100 success=1
D: protocol-native.c: SHM possible: yes
D: protocol-native.c: Negotiated SHM: yes
D: module-augment-properties.c: Looking for .desktop file for kaffeine
I: client.c: Freed 2 "libphonon-probe"
I: protocol-native.c: Connection died.
I: client.c: Created 3 "Native client (UNIX socket client)"
I: client.c: Created 4 "Native client (UNIX socket client)"
D: protocol-native.c: Protocol version: remote 16, local 16
I: protocol-native.c: Got credentials: uid=1000 gid=100 success=1
D: protocol-native.c: SHM possible: yes
D: protocol-native.c: Negotiated SHM: yes
D: module-augment-properties.c: Looking for .desktop file for kaffeine
D: protocol-native.c: Protocol version: remote 16, local 16
I: protocol-native.c: Got credentials: uid=1000 gid=100 success=1
D: protocol-native.c: SHM possible: yes
D: protocol-native.c: Negotiated SHM: yes
D: module-augment-properties.c: Looking for .desktop file for kaffeine
I: module-stream-restore.c: Restoring volume for sink input sink-input-by-
media-role:video.
D: sink.c: Suspend cause of sink alsa_output.pci-0000_00_1b.0.analog-stereo is 
0x0000, resuming
D: reserve-wrap.c: Successfully acquired reservation lock on device 'Audio0'
I: alsa-sink.c: Trying resume...
D: alsa-util.c: Maximum hw buffer size is 371 ms
D: alsa-util.c: Set buffer size first (to 16384 samples), period size second (to 
8192 samples).
D: alsa-sink.c: hwbuf_unused=0
D: alsa-sink.c: setting avail_min=15502
I: alsa-sink.c: Resumed successfully...
I: alsa-sink.c: Starting playback.
D: alsa-sink.c: Cutting sleep time for the initial iterations by half.
D: module-suspend-on-idle.c: Sink alsa_output.pci-0000_00_1b.0.analog-stereo 
becomes idle, timeout in 5 seconds.
D: alsa-sink.c: Cutting sleep time for the initial iterations by half.
D: alsa-sink.c: Cutting sleep time for the initial iterations by half.
D: module-suspend-on-idle.c: Sink alsa_output.pci-0000_00_1b.0.analog-stereo 
becomes busy.
I: resampler.c: Using resampler 'speex-float-3'
I: resampler.c: Using float32le as working format.
I: resampler.c: Choosing speex quality setting 3.
D: memblockq.c: memblockq requested: maxlength=33554432, tlength=0, base=4, 
prebuf=0, minreq=1 maxrewind=0
D: memblockq.c: memblockq sanitized: maxlength=33554432, tlength=33554432, 
base=4, prebuf=0, minreq=4 maxrewind=0
I: sink-input.c: Created input 0 "Audio Stream" on 
alsa_output.pci-0000_00_1b.0.analog-stereo with sample spec s16le 2ch 48000Hz 
and channel map front-left,front-right
I: sink-input.c:     media.name = "Audio Stream"
I: sink-input.c:     application.name = "kaffeine"
I: sink-input.c:     native-protocol.peer = "UNIX socket client"
I: sink-input.c:     native-protocol.version = "16"
I: sink-input.c:     media.role = "video"
I: sink-input.c:     phonon.streamid = 
"{1d2615a1-66ea-43cd-879a-754656791fa3}"
I: sink-input.c:     application.process.id = "22783"
I: sink-input.c:     application.process.user = "fabian"
I: sink-input.c:     application.process.host = "fkoest-nb"
I: sink-input.c:     application.process.binary = "kaffeine"
I: sink-input.c:     application.language = "de_DE.UTF-8"
I: sink-input.c:     window.x11.display = ":0.0"
I: sink-input.c:     application.process.machine_id = 
"3e11ad7a09a7286cfb0063054bba5809"
I: sink-input.c:     application.process.session_id = 
"3e11ad7a09a7286cfb0063054bba5809-1274289751.605749-741466757"
I: sink-input.c:     module-stream-restore.id = "sink-input-by-media-
role:video"
I: protocol-native.c: Requested tlength=250,00 ms, minreq=20,00 ms
D: protocol-native.c: Traditional mode enabled, modifying sink usec only for 
compat with minreq.
D: alsa-sink.c: Cutting sleep time for the initial iterations by half.
D: alsa-sink.c: Cutting sleep time for the initial iterations by half.
D: memblockq.c: memblockq requested: maxlength=4194304, tlength=48000, base=4, 
prebuf=44164, minreq=3840 maxrewind=0
D: memblockq.c: memblockq sanitized: maxlength=4194304, tlength=48000, base=4, 
prebuf=44164, minreq=3840 maxrewind=0
I: protocol-native.c: Final latency 460,00 ms = 210,00 ms + 2*20,00 ms + 
210,00 ms
D: alsa-sink.c: Requested volume: 0: 100% 1: 100%
D: alsa-sink.c: Got hardware volume: 0: 100% 1: 100%
D: alsa-sink.c: Calculated software volume: 0: 100% 1: 100% (accurate-
enough=yes)
D: alsa-sink.c: Cutting sleep time for the initial iterations by half.
D: alsa-sink.c: Latency set to 210,00ms
D: alsa-sink.c: hwbuf_unused=28492
D: alsa-sink.c: setting avail_min=15503
D: alsa-sink.c: Requesting rewind due to latency change.
D: alsa-sink.c: Requested to rewind 65536 bytes.
D: alsa-sink.c: Limited to 61496 bytes.
D: alsa-sink.c: before: 15374
D: alsa-sink.c: after: 15374
D: alsa-sink.c: Rewound 61496 bytes.
D: sink.c: Processing rewind...
D: sink-input.c: Have to rewind 61496 bytes on render memblockq.
D: source.c: Processing rewind...
D: core-subscribe.c: Dropped redundant event due to change event.
D: reserve-wrap.c: Device lock status of reserve-monitor-wrapper@Audio0 
changed: not busy
D: protocol-native.c: Requesting rewind due to end of underrun.
D: alsa-sink.c: Requested to rewind 65536 bytes.
D: alsa-sink.c: Limited to 32684 bytes.
D: alsa-sink.c: before: 8171
D: alsa-sink.c: after: 8171
D: alsa-sink.c: Rewound 32684 bytes.
D: sink.c: Processing rewind...
D: sink-input.c: Have to rewind 32684 bytes on render memblockq.
D: source.c: Processing rewind...

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[gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[walt]

On 05/19/2010 12:59 PM, Fabian Köster wrote:
> Hi *,
>
> I am currently trying to use Phonon and PulseAudio and have the following
> problem:
>
> When I play some Video with a Non-KDE application like VLC everything is
> perfectly directed to the local PulseAudio running on my machine and i have
> the expected sound-output.
>
> But when I use a KDE-Application like Kaffeine or Amarok there is no sound
> output although the stream is listed by pavucontrol...

Well, since I'm first to answer I get to inject my prejudices first :)

I think pulse is a very long answer to a very short question and so I did
away with it months ago.  And I haven't regretted it.

Truly, I think very few people need pulse outside of professionals who work
in film or music.  The main reason others have disagreed with my opinion is
because your silly desktop sounds like beeps and boings and toilets flushing
interrupt the CD you're listening to.  Uh, well, yeah, one sound generally
interrupts another, true.  So what?

I'll bet your audio would do what you expect it to do if you just removed
every trace of pulse from your machine and run revdep-rebuild with the pulse,
arts, and esd useflags disabled (if those flags still exist).

Contrary opinions will follow shortly ;)

Now

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Alan McKinnon]

On Wednesday 19 May 2010 23:56:39 walt wrote:
> On 05/19/2010 12:59 PM, Fabian Köster wrote:
> > Hi *,
> > 
> > I am currently trying to use Phonon and PulseAudio and have the following
> > problem:
> > 
> > When I play some Video with a Non-KDE application like VLC everything is
> > perfectly directed to the local PulseAudio running on my machine and i
> > have the expected sound-output.
> > 
> > But when I use a KDE-Application like Kaffeine or Amarok there is no
> > sound output although the stream is listed by pavucontrol...
> 
> Well, since I'm first to answer I get to inject my prejudices first :)
> 
> I think pulse is a very long answer to a very short question and so I did
> away with it months ago.  And I haven't regretted it.
> 
> Truly, I think very few people need pulse outside of professionals who work
> in film or music.  The main reason others have disagreed with my opinion is
> because your silly desktop sounds like beeps and boings and toilets
> flushing interrupt the CD you're listening to.  Uh, well, yeah, one sound
> generally interrupts another, true.  So what?
> 
> I'll bet your audio would do what you expect it to do if you just removed
> every trace of pulse from your machine and run revdep-rebuild with the
> pulse, arts, and esd useflags disabled (if those flags still exist).
> 
> Contrary opinions will follow shortly ;)


No, I don't think they will :-)

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

[gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 05/20/2010 11:15 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Wednesday 19 May 2010 23:56:39 walt wrote:
>> On 05/19/2010 12:59 PM, Fabian Köster wrote:
>>> Hi *,
>>>
>>> I am currently trying to use Phonon and PulseAudio and have the following
>>> problem:
>>>
>>> When I play some Video with a Non-KDE application like VLC everything is
>>> perfectly directed to the local PulseAudio running on my machine and i
>>> have the expected sound-output.
>>>
>>> But when I use a KDE-Application like Kaffeine or Amarok there is no
>>> sound output although the stream is listed by pavucontrol...
>>
>> Well, since I'm first to answer I get to inject my prejudices first :)
>>
>> I think pulse is a very long answer to a very short question and so I did
>> away with it months ago.  And I haven't regretted it.
>>
>> Truly, I think very few people need pulse outside of professionals who work
>> in film or music.  The main reason others have disagreed with my opinion is
>> because your silly desktop sounds like beeps and boings and toilets
>> flushing interrupt the CD you're listening to.  Uh, well, yeah, one sound
>> generally interrupts another, true.  So what?
>>
>> I'll bet your audio would do what you expect it to do if you just removed
>> every trace of pulse from your machine and run revdep-rebuild with the
>> pulse, arts, and esd useflags disabled (if those flags still exist).
>>
>> Contrary opinions will follow shortly ;)
>
> No, I don't think they will :-)

Well, here is one :P

"Uh, well, yeah, one sound generally interrupts another, true."

That is not true.  ALSA (most people use that one) has dmix, which mixes 
all sounds from all applications together.  You don't need PulseAudio 
for that.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 20 May 2010 10:40:33 Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 05/20/2010 11:15 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On Wednesday 19 May 2010 23:56:39 walt wrote:


[snip]

> >> Well, since I'm first to answer I get to inject my prejudices first :)
> >> 
> >> I think pulse is a very long answer to a very short question and so I
> >> did away with it months ago.  And I haven't regretted it.
> >> 
> >> Truly, I think very few people need pulse outside of professionals who
> >> work in film or music.  The main reason others have disagreed with my
> >> opinion is because your silly desktop sounds like beeps and boings and
> >> toilets flushing interrupt the CD you're listening to.  Uh, well, yeah,
> >> one sound generally interrupts another, true.  So what?
> >> 
> >> I'll bet your audio would do what you expect it to do if you just
> >> removed every trace of pulse from your machine and run revdep-rebuild
> >> with the pulse, arts, and esd useflags disabled (if those flags still
> >> exist).
> >> 
> >> Contrary opinions will follow shortly ;)
> > 
> > No, I don't think they will :-)
> 
> Well, here is one :P
> 
> "Uh, well, yeah, one sound generally interrupts another, true."
> 
> That is not true.  ALSA (most people use that one) has dmix, which mixes
> all sounds from all applications together.  You don't need PulseAudio
> for that.

PulseAudio does indeed have it's uses. Some folks really do want fine-grained 
control over each daemon using the sound system, but those folks are not the 
set of average users.

Feature-wise, ALSA pretty much does everything the *average* user wants, and 
that user does not really want to schlepp sound over the network or tweak 
every individual thing making noises.

Now ALSA may or may not have good-quality code in it but that's another 
matter. We are discussing features.

Like an earlier poster suggested, PulseAudio looks like a hammer in search of 
a nail.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 6:13 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> Like an earlier poster suggested, PulseAudio looks like a hammer in search of
> a nail.

I have a bluetooth headset. I set it up with gnome-bluetooth, and with
PulseAudio I can dynamically redirect the output in my laptop from the
speakers to the headset and back; it also redirects it automatically
when my headset gets disconnected or runs out of battery.

Good luck doing that with ALSA.

PulseAudio is here to stay, and for a very good reason I say. It's not
"too complicated" or "overkill"; a modern sound architecture for
desktop computers was in dire need for Linux, and PulseAudio was the
first complete and (more important) correct designed solution. Don't
even mention OSS4; the sound architecture goes in user space, not the
kernel.

This is why *ALL* the Linux based mobile phones use PulseAudio: it
*works*, and it *makes sense* from a technical point of view. It
sucked for a long time? Indeed it did; just like KDE 4.0 sucked
immediately afer KDE 3.5; just like X.org sucked at the very
beginning; just like ALSA sucked when it replaced OSS; just like GNOME
2.0 sucked. Innovation is expensive.

I have PulseAudio running perfectly in my laptop, my desktop, *and* my
MediaCenter connected to my 5.1 system. Via HDMI, by the way. I thank
for PulseAudio; now, after the initial (and very annoying) problems,
it works, it doesn't get in the way, and it's flexible enough to adapt
to new hardware and new sound solutions. Bluetooth headsets it's just
one example (but a very good one I believe; everything is going
wireless); there are USB sound cards, transparently output the music
from my laptop to my MediaCenter, and, of course, little beeps from
the GUI when I click a menu item.

I repeat: PulseAudio is here to stay. You can purge it out of your
system, but more and more applications will make use of it, and
eventually you will not be able to have a desktop without it. Right
now it works flawlessly in the majority of hardware; I highly
recommend to start using it now (it's stable in Gentoo since a couple
of months ago, I believe); and better get used to it.

Because it's not going anywhere.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Instituto de Matemáticas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

[gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 05/20/2010 08:30 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>  Don't
> even mention OSS4; the sound architecture goes in user space, not the
> kernel.

I don't care where they go (why the hell should I?), for as long as they 
work.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote:
> On 05/20/2010 08:30 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>
>>  Don't
>> even mention OSS4; the sound architecture goes in user space, not the
>> kernel.
>
> I don't care where they go (why the hell should I?), for as long as they
> work.

You should care, because if it breaks inside the kernel, it probably
takes away the whole operating system. And then you lose work and
you're sad.

But don't take my word for it; Intel+Nokia are using PulseAudio in
MeeGo, and Google it's doing the same with Android. They are making an
opinion with their wallets.

(And doesn't really matters, but I haven't heard that it's possible to
switch audio from internal speakers to bluetooth headset with OSS4, so
as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't work.)

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Instituto de Matemáticas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip
> (And doesn't really matters, but I haven't heard that it's possible to
> switch audio from internal speakers to bluetooth headset with OSS4, so
> as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't work.)

With just a few clicks, I should add.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Instituto de Matemáticas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

[gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 05/20/2010 09:44 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Nikos Chantziaras<realnc@arcor.de>  wrote:
>> On 05/20/2010 08:30 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>>
>>>   Don't
>>> even mention OSS4; the sound architecture goes in user space, not the
>>> kernel.
>>
>> I don't care where they go (why the hell should I?), for as long as they
>> work.
>
> You should care, because if it breaks inside the kernel, it probably
> takes away the whole operating system. And then you lose work and
> you're sad.

Well, it doesn't break here.  It's been rock-solid through the years. 
It's too bad it's going to die though; it was the only way to get solid 
sound for me.  ALSA with its out-of-kernel dmix sucked, like, forever.

What doesn't work is PulseAudio, actually.  Too many problems with it. 
Pulse is simply broken by design; it's too far from the kernel to be any 
good.


> But don't take my word for it; Intel+Nokia are using PulseAudio in
> MeeGo, and Google it's doing the same with Android. They are making an
> opinion with their wallets.
>
> (And doesn't really matters, but I haven't heard that it's possible to
> switch audio from internal speakers to bluetooth headset with OSS4, so
> as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't work.)

ALSA can't switch to Bluetooth either.  You could use PulseAudio with 
OSS4 instead of with ALSA though, but this is not officially supported.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote:
[snip]
> What doesn't work is PulseAudio, actually.  Too many problems with it. Pulse
> is simply broken by design; it's too far from the kernel to be any good.

If I may use (most of) your words: "Well, it works here.  It's been
rock-solid through months." And with various use-cases, if I may add.

Can you elaborate why the audio architecture has to be close to the
kernel? The part that talks to the hardware obviously has to, but why
the part that handles the features, the mixes, the virtual devices?
I'm under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that it was one of
the major reasons to leave OSS4 outside the upstream kernel; too many
stuff in there that belongs in user space. It sounds reasonable to me.

Specially when PulseAudio just works, for me and many more.

[snip]
> ALSA can't switch to Bluetooth either.  You could use PulseAudio with OSS4
> instead of with ALSA though, but this is not officially supported.

Indeed it's not supported, because it's (using your words again)
"broken by design" by trying to do too many things inside the kernel
that belong in user space. That's my understanding at least; please
correct me if you believe I'm mistaken.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Instituto de Matemáticas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 20 May 2010 21:25:36 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> > What doesn't work is PulseAudio, actually.  Too many problems with it.
> > Pulse is simply broken by design; it's too far from the kernel to be any
> > good.
> 
> If I may use (most of) your words: "Well, it works here.  It's been
> rock-solid through months." And with various use-cases, if I may add.
> 
> Can you elaborate why the audio architecture has to be close to the
> kernel? The part that talks to the hardware obviously has to, but why
> the part that handles the features, the mixes, the virtual devices?
> I'm under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that it was one of
> the major reasons to leave OSS4 outside the upstream kernel; too many
> stuff in there that belongs in user space. It sounds reasonable to me.


Well the general rule of good design is that a daemon the user will use to 
tell to do $STUFF is a daemon and runs in user space. Like wicd - you tell it 
to please stop using the wireless interface now that you have plugged in an 
ethernet cable, and all this happens in userspace. The daemon tells the kernel 
which drivers to activate and with what parameters (grossly simplified 
description).

The kernel is a big fat box with drivers in it, and it also knows how to do 
neat things like scheduling.

From that point of view, that aspect of PulseAudio's design is indeed correct. 

Aside:
I might not like PulseAudio much (I don't need any of it's new features) but 
it sure is better than esd or aRTs....


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

[gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 05/20/2010 10:25 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Nikos Chantziaras<realnc@arcor.de>  wrote:
> [snip]
>> What doesn't work is PulseAudio, actually.  Too many problems with it. Pulse
>> is simply broken by design; it's too far from the kernel to be any good.
>
> If I may use (most of) your words: "Well, it works here.  It's been
> rock-solid through months." And with various use-cases, if I may add.
>
> Can you elaborate why the audio architecture has to be close to the
> kernel? The part that talks to the hardware obviously has to, but why
> the part that handles the features, the mixes, the virtual devices?

Because as soon as you disable ALSA dmix and/or Pulse, suddenly you get 
acceptable sound latency.

With OSS4, which has in-kernel mixing, it doesn't matter if you enable 
the mixer or disable it; sound always has acceptable latency.

Thus, I can only conclude that mixing has to happen in-kernel.  But I 
base this only on the ALSA/Pulse vs OSS4 comparison.  It could also be 
that the user-space implementation of ALSA just sucks.  But that's hard 
to believe, since if that were the case they would have fixed it several 
years ago already.


> I'm under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that it was one of
> the major reasons to leave OSS4 outside the upstream kernel; too many
> stuff in there that belongs in user space. It sounds reasonable to me.

It sounds reasonable from a designer's point of view.  But a system is 
useless if it's only designed good but doesn't actually work in a 
satisfactory manner.


> Specially when PulseAudio just works, for me and many more.

Sorry, that just pretentious of you here.  PulseAudio is the most flamed 
at, hated, sound-related software around.  And this is because it does 
*not* work for many, many users, and the first thing they try to do is 
find out how to disable the thing.


>> ALSA can't switch to Bluetooth either.  You could use PulseAudio with OSS4
>> instead of with ALSA though, but this is not officially supported.
>
> Indeed it's not supported, because it's (using your words again)
> "broken by design" by trying to do too many things inside the kernel
> that belong in user space. That's my understanding at least; please
> correct me if you believe I'm mistaken.

You're mistaken in that a mixer should be in the same boat as network 
streaming, bluetooth, etc, etc.  I believe the *mixer* should be 
in-kernel.  Everything else doesn't need to be.  PulseAudio's extreme 
latency problems (which even upstream admits can't be fixed easily) stem 
from that.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote:
> Because as soon as you disable ALSA dmix and/or Pulse, suddenly you get
> acceptable sound latency.
>
> With OSS4, which has in-kernel mixing, it doesn't matter if you enable the
> mixer or disable it; sound always has acceptable latency.

By that reasoning, the GUI should be in-kernel too. It would be then
really responsive al the time. I don't buy the argument.

> Thus, I can only conclude that mixing has to happen in-kernel.  But I base
> this only on the ALSA/Pulse vs OSS4 comparison.  It could also be that the
> user-space implementation of ALSA just sucks.  But that's hard to believe,
> since if that were the case they would have fixed it several years ago
> already.

No, it doesn't has to happen in-kernel; all the linux based phones
(which deal primarily with, you know, audio, including heavy use of
multimedia) use PulseAudio. And these are not very powerful machines;
so if the mixing in user space works in low powered devices, it must
work everywhere. I don't buy this argument either.

> It sounds reasonable from a designer's point of view.  But a system is
> useless if it's only designed good but doesn't actually work in a
> satisfactory manner.

It works for me, I repeat, and for a lot of other folks too. It's not
only a design decision made because it's "elegant"; it's made because
it works "in a satisfactory manner" (ex. me, others, Linux phones),
and because it's more flexible: put it in the kernel, and you loose
the capacity to do important changes and extensions (specially with
the way the Linux kernel development works).

In short, because it works "in a satisfactory manner" (to me and many
others, including all the N900 and Android users out there), I also
don't buy this argument.

> Sorry, that just pretentious of you here.  PulseAudio is the most flamed at,
> hated, sound-related software around.  And this is because it does *not*
> work for many, many users, and the first thing they try to do is find out
> how to disable the thing.

Sorry, but I believe the you are the one being pretentious; how long
has been since you tried PulseAudio? It has come a loooong way, and I
haven't seen any real flames against PulseAudio in many months (and
it's enabled in all major distributions). And that is because it's
working (I repeat my words) "for me and many more".

> You're mistaken in that a mixer should be in the same boat as network
> streaming, bluetooth, etc, etc.  I believe the *mixer* should be in-kernel.
>  Everything else doesn't need to be.  PulseAudio's extreme latency problems
> (which even upstream admits can't be fixed easily) stem from that.

I respectfully disagree; the kernel should pass along data and
messages to the sound hardware, and everything else (*including
mixing*) should be in user space. Not only in theory from an academic
and aesthetic point of view; *it also works*, to me, to many users who
doesn't complain (despite PulseAudio being used by default in ALL
major distributions), and to ALL the users of Android and MeeGo.

And to finish, I don't know how much you know about technical
decisions and design, but I know that Linus refused to accept OSS4 in
the kernel, I know that all major distributions decided to go with
PulseAudio, and I know that Intel, Nokia and Google are betting for
it.

So, no offense, but I trust more in those guys and the arguments I
have heard from them. And the consensus with them is to use
PulseAudio, and leave the mixing in user space.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Instituto de Matemáticas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Jonathan]

>Sorry, but I believe the you are the one being pretentious; how long
>has been since you tried PulseAudio? It has come a loooong way, and I
>haven't seen any real flames against PulseAudio in many months (and
>it's enabled in all major distributions). And that is because it's
>working (I repeat my words) "for me and many more".

Windows "works" for many people it does not make it the best OS or the only one.
In Ubuntu they went from oss to PulseAudio. 
I bet that 90% of Ubuntu users do not know that PulseAudio uses Alsa.

>And to finish, I don't know how much you know about technical
>decisions and design, but I know that Linus refused to accept OSS4 in
>the kernel, I know that all major distributions decided to go with
>PulseAudio, and I know that Intel, Nokia and Google are betting for
>it.

Why do you think PulseAudio is userspace. Haha

Setting up Alsa was/is hard to do but with my on board chip it was plug and play.
If Alsa was easy to setup then PulseAudio would not be main stream.

Alsa trys to hardware mix if it can not it mixes in software.
PulseAudio mixes in software and never trys to mix in hardware.
Did I get that right?

So if your n900 sound chip can not mix in hardware then you may as well use PulseAudio.
As the load is still on the CPU.

At the end of the day I want to pick a sound system and use it.
I do not want one forced on me.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Jonathan
<winelauncher.jonathan@googlemail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> Windows "works" for many people it does not make it the best OS or the only one.
> In Ubuntu they went from oss to PulseAudio.
> I bet that 90% of Ubuntu users do not know that PulseAudio uses Alsa.

What it has to do with anthing? I'm not saying it "kinda works"; I'm
saying it works great. Much better than anything else I have tried.

> At the end of the day I want to pick a sound system and use it.
> I do not want one forced on me.

This is OpenSource; nobody is "forcing" you to anything. If you want
to you can take the code of ALSA, OSS4 or even PulseAudio and do
whatever you want with it.

But every major distribution and all the Linux based phones are going
with PulseAudio. And for a good reason: it works great. So it's not
being forced on anyone, but its going to be the default almost
everywhere.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Instituto de Matemáticas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

[gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 05/21/2010 02:03 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Nikos Chantziaras<realnc@arcor.de>  wrote:
>> Because as soon as you disable ALSA dmix and/or Pulse, suddenly you get
>> acceptable sound latency.
>>
>> With OSS4, which has in-kernel mixing, it doesn't matter if you enable the
>> mixer or disable it; sound always has acceptable latency.
>
> By that reasoning, the GUI should be in-kernel too. It would be then
> really responsive al the time. I don't buy the argument.

Then why does dmix lag?


>> Thus, I can only conclude that mixing has to happen in-kernel.  But I base
>> this only on the ALSA/Pulse vs OSS4 comparison.  It could also be that the
>> user-space implementation of ALSA just sucks.  But that's hard to believe,
>> since if that were the case they would have fixed it several years ago
>> already.
>
> No, it doesn't has to happen in-kernel; all the linux based phones
> (which deal primarily with, you know, audio, including heavy use of
> multimedia) use PulseAudio. And these are not very powerful machines;
> so if the mixing in user space works in low powered devices, it must
> work everywhere. I don't buy this argument either.

Then why does dmix lag?


>> It sounds reasonable from a designer's point of view.  But a system is
>> useless if it's only designed good but doesn't actually work in a
>> satisfactory manner.
>
> It works for me, I repeat, and for a lot of other folks too. It's not
> only a design decision made because it's "elegant"; it's made because
> it works "in a satisfactory manner" (ex. me, others, Linux phones),
> and because it's more flexible: put it in the kernel, and you loose
> the capacity to do important changes and extensions (specially with
> the way the Linux kernel development works).

Why on earth would you want to put it in the kernel in the first place? 
  That has nothing to do with the low level mixer.


> In short, because it works "in a satisfactory manner" (to me and many
> others, including all the N900 and Android users out there), I also
> don't buy this argument.
>
>> Sorry, that just pretentious of you here.  PulseAudio is the most flamed at,
>> hated, sound-related software around.  And this is because it does *not*
>> work for many, many users, and the first thing they try to do is find out
>> how to disable the thing.
>
> Sorry, but I believe the you are the one being pretentious; how long
> has been since you tried PulseAudio? It has come a loooong way, and I
> haven't seen any real flames against PulseAudio in many months (and
> it's enabled in all major distributions). And that is because it's
> working (I repeat my words) "for me and many more".

I've tried it 6 days ago.  Ubuntu 10.04.  It's still a laggy, buggy, 
pile of ****.  First thing I did was to disable it.


>> You're mistaken in that a mixer should be in the same boat as network
>> streaming, bluetooth, etc, etc.  I believe the *mixer* should be in-kernel.
>>   Everything else doesn't need to be.  PulseAudio's extreme latency problems
>> (which even upstream admits can't be fixed easily) stem from that.
>
> I respectfully disagree; the kernel should pass along data and
> messages to the sound hardware, and everything else (*including
> mixing*) should be in user space. Not only in theory from an academic
> and aesthetic point of view; *it also works*, to me, to many users who
> doesn't complain (despite PulseAudio being used by default in ALL
> major distributions), and to ALL the users of Android and MeeGo.

Yes, you and many people also find it acceptable to run their games with 
10FPS, or to take their systems 1 minute to boot, etc.

I am not one of those people.  I don't like it when the sound lags.  You 
may claim that it doesn't bother you.  But you can't claim that it 
doesn't happen.


> And to finish, I don't know how much you know about technical
> decisions and design, but I know that Linus refused to accept OSS4 in
> the kernel, I know that all major distributions decided to go with
> PulseAudio, and I know that Intel, Nokia and Google are betting for
> it.

That doesn't mean ALSA is better.


> So, no offense, but I trust more in those guys and the arguments I
> have heard from them. And the consensus with them is to use
> PulseAudio, and leave the mixing in user space.

Then why don't they fix it?  It's still crap after all this time.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote:
> Then why does dmix lag?
> Then why does dmix lag?

I don't know; I don't care. I don't use dmix, I use PulseAudio, and it
takes care of everything in user space and I don't have to worry about
anything.

> I've tried it 6 days ago.  Ubuntu 10.04.  It's still a laggy, buggy, pile of
> ****.  First thing I did was to disable it.

It doesn't lag here. It's rock solid stable. In all my computers, each
one with completely different sound hardware. And I'm just using the
ebuilds from Gentoo; I didn't configure *anything*. I didn't have to.

Maybe Ubuntu has something wrong: Lennart complained that they "didn't get it":

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/pa-in-ubuntu.html

> Yes, you and many people also find it acceptable to run their games with
> 10FPS, or to take their systems 1 minute to boot, etc.

My games doesn't run at 10FPS, my laptop boot in seconds (and usually
it's always suspended), my desktop and media center (specially the
latter) boot very quickly also. Please don't speak about something you
don't know anything about.

> I am not one of those people.  I don't like it when the sound lags.  You may
> claim that it doesn't bother you.  But you can't claim that it doesn't
> happen.

I can claim it: it doesn't happen *to me*. It works beautifully. I'm
using Gentoo, with the following versions:

media-sound/pulseaudio-0.9.21.1
sys-kernel/vanilla-sources-2.6.32.9

My sound card is :

00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) HD Audio
Controller (rev 03)

(I'm on my laptop; don't have the specs of my desktop or media center,
but the versions at least should be the same).

I simply don't have any sound lags.

> That doesn't mean ALSA is better.

Again, I trust more the technical judgement from the kernel
developers. No offense.

> Then why don't they fix it?  It's still crap after all this time.

It's not in my case. Not at all. But (as I said in my last mail), this
is Open Source; if you think it's crap, you can try to fix it.

All I'm saying is that PulseAudio is a great sound architecture for
Linux. It works great for me, in several hardware configurations; and
in particular in my Media Center, which is my principal medium to
listen to music. And I trust the judgement of the ones that decided to
use ALSA+PulseAudio.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Instituto de Matemáticas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

[gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 05/21/2010 09:26 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Nikos Chantziaras<realnc@arcor.de>  wrote:
>> Then why does dmix lag?
>> Then why does dmix lag?
>
> I don't know; I don't care. I don't use dmix, I use PulseAudio, and it
> takes care of everything in user space and I don't have to worry about
> anything.
>
>> I've tried it 6 days ago.  Ubuntu 10.04.  It's still a laggy, buggy, pile of
>> ****.  First thing I did was to disable it.
>
> It doesn't lag here. It's rock solid stable. In all my computers, each
> one with completely different sound hardware. And I'm just using the
> ebuilds from Gentoo; I didn't configure *anything*. I didn't have to.
>
> Maybe Ubuntu has something wrong: Lennart complained that they "didn't get it":
>
> http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/pa-in-ubuntu.html
>
>> Yes, you and many people also find it acceptable to run their games with
>> 10FPS, or to take their systems 1 minute to boot, etc.
>
> My games doesn't run at 10FPS, my laptop boot in seconds (and usually
> it's always suspended), my desktop and media center (specially the
> latter) boot very quickly also. Please don't speak about something you
> don't know anything about.
>
>> I am not one of those people.  I don't like it when the sound lags.  You may
>> claim that it doesn't bother you.  But you can't claim that it doesn't
>> happen.
>
> I can claim it: it doesn't happen *to me*. It works beautifully. I'm
> using Gentoo, with the following versions:
>
> media-sound/pulseaudio-0.9.21.1
> sys-kernel/vanilla-sources-2.6.32.9
>
> My sound card is :
>
> 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) HD Audio
> Controller (rev 03)
>
> (I'm on my laptop; don't have the specs of my desktop or media center,
> but the versions at least should be the same).
>
> I simply don't have any sound lags.
>
>> That doesn't mean ALSA is better.
>
> Again, I trust more the technical judgement from the kernel
> developers. No offense.
>
>> Then why don't they fix it?  It's still crap after all this time.
>
> It's not in my case. Not at all. But (as I said in my last mail), this
> is Open Source; if you think it's crap, you can try to fix it.
>
> All I'm saying is that PulseAudio is a great sound architecture for
> Linux. It works great for me, in several hardware configurations; and
> in particular in my Media Center, which is my principal medium to
> listen to music. And I trust the judgement of the ones that decided to
> use ALSA+PulseAudio.
>
> Regards.

All of this boils down to what you should have said in the beginning:

It works for *you*.

You don't mind the lag (there is lag, no way around it, you just don't 
mind because you're not using software that needs good latency, like 
software synthesizers) but I do.  So stop trying to convince me that it 
works for me too.  To use your own words, please don't speak about 
something you don't know anything about.  As I see it, if I have to use 
ALSA's OSS-compatibility to get acceptable results, why not use the real 
thing instead?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 21 Mai 2010, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 05/21/2010 09:26 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> > On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Nikos Chantziaras<realnc@arcor.de>  
wrote:
> >> Then why does dmix lag?
> >> Then why does dmix lag?
> > 
> > I don't know; I don't care. I don't use dmix, I use PulseAudio, and it
> > takes care of everything in user space and I don't have to worry about
> > anything.
> > 
> >> I've tried it 6 days ago.  Ubuntu 10.04.  It's still a laggy, buggy,
> >> pile of ****.  First thing I did was to disable it.
> > 
> > It doesn't lag here. It's rock solid stable. In all my computers, each
> > one with completely different sound hardware. And I'm just using the
> > ebuilds from Gentoo; I didn't configure *anything*. I didn't have to.
> > 
> > Maybe Ubuntu has something wrong: Lennart complained that they "didn't
> > get it":
> > 
> > http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/pa-in-ubuntu.html
> > 
> >> Yes, you and many people also find it acceptable to run their games with
> >> 10FPS, or to take their systems 1 minute to boot, etc.
> > 
> > My games doesn't run at 10FPS, my laptop boot in seconds (and usually
> > it's always suspended), my desktop and media center (specially the
> > latter) boot very quickly also. Please don't speak about something you
> > don't know anything about.
> > 
> >> I am not one of those people.  I don't like it when the sound lags.  You
> >> may claim that it doesn't bother you.  But you can't claim that it
> >> doesn't happen.
> > 
> > I can claim it: it doesn't happen *to me*. It works beautifully. I'm
> > using Gentoo, with the following versions:
> > 
> > media-sound/pulseaudio-0.9.21.1
> > sys-kernel/vanilla-sources-2.6.32.9
> > 
> > My sound card is :
> > 
> > 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) HD Audio
> > Controller (rev 03)
> > 
> > (I'm on my laptop; don't have the specs of my desktop or media center,
> > but the versions at least should be the same).
> > 
> > I simply don't have any sound lags.
> > 
> >> That doesn't mean ALSA is better.
> > 
> > Again, I trust more the technical judgement from the kernel
> > developers. No offense.
> > 
> >> Then why don't they fix it?  It's still crap after all this time.
> > 
> > It's not in my case. Not at all. But (as I said in my last mail), this
> > is Open Source; if you think it's crap, you can try to fix it.
> > 
> > All I'm saying is that PulseAudio is a great sound architecture for
> > Linux. It works great for me, in several hardware configurations; and
> > in particular in my Media Center, which is my principal medium to
> > listen to music. And I trust the judgement of the ones that decided to
> > use ALSA+PulseAudio.
> > 
> > Regards.
> 
> All of this boils down to what you should have said in the beginning:
> 
> It works for *you*.
> 
> You don't mind the lag (there is lag, no way around it, you just don't
> mind because you're not using software that needs good latency, like
> software synthesizers) but I do.  So stop trying to convince me that it
> works for me too.  To use your own words, please don't speak about
> something you don't know anything about.  As I see it, if I have to use
> ALSA's OSS-compatibility to get acceptable results, why not use the real
> thing instead?

h,mm, lets see - because oss4 is broken by design? Also, what 'latency' are 
you talking about?

[gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 05/21/2010 10:38 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Freitag 21 Mai 2010, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
>>
>> You don't mind the lag (there is lag, no way around it, you just don't
>> mind because you're not using software that needs good latency, like
>> software synthesizers) but I do.  So stop trying to convince me that it
>> works for me too.  To use your own words, please don't speak about
>> something you don't know anything about.  As I see it, if I have to use
>> ALSA's OSS-compatibility to get acceptable results, why not use the real
>> thing instead?
>
> h,mm, lets see - because oss4 is broken by design?

No it's not broken.  It's awesome:

http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/06/state-of-sound-in-linux-not-so-sorry.html


> Also, what 'latency' are you talking about?

Latency is the delay between giving the order to play a sound and the 
sound actually being played.  It's usually around 30ms here with 
ALSA/dmix, and around 10ms with OSS/vmix.  It's not funny trying to play 
something in a software synth with a keyboard when having a 30ms latency.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote:
> Latency is the delay between giving the order to play a sound and the sound
> actually being played.  It's usually around 30ms here with ALSA/dmix, and
> around 10ms with OSS/vmix.  It's not funny trying to play something in a
> software synth with a keyboard when having a 30ms latency.

As I said, you're doing it wrong. No "normal" (average desktop, media
center, laptop, linux-phone) user needs 10ms of latency in audio.
That's overkill. Yours is a special case, and you need special
software. Try Jack.

And it doesn't need to be in kernel space, by the way. OSS4 is dying
because of that.

For the rest of us mere mortals, PulseAudio Rocks; it has *variable*
latencies by design, so the audio processing doesn't eat up all the
battery life. Again, read the comparison between PulseAudio and Jack:

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/when-pa-and-when-not.html

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Instituto de Matemáticas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

[gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 05/22/2010 07:59 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Nikos Chantziaras<realnc@arcor.de>  wrote:
>> Latency is the delay between giving the order to play a sound and the sound
>> actually being played.  It's usually around 30ms here with ALSA/dmix, and
>> around 10ms with OSS/vmix.  It's not funny trying to play something in a
>> software synth with a keyboard when having a 30ms latency.
>
> As I said, you're doing it wrong. No "normal" (average desktop, media
> center, laptop, linux-phone) user needs 10ms of latency in audio.
> That's overkill. Yours is a special case, and you need special
> software. Try Jack.

I don't do professional audio.  I have a normal PC.  And just like I 
sometimes use a synth in Windows (I'm just a hobbyist), I'd like to do 
the same in Linux.

Windows: I don't need Jack there.  Audio latency is low even with 
non-ASIO drivers.

Linux: I suddenly need "Jack" and specialty hacks and must do without a 
mixer!  No thanks.  OSSv4 allows me to use my machine in the same manner 
as Windows: It just works and does the right thing regardless of the 
application I'm running.

ALSA/Pulse needing third-party stuff just to get basics right 
(acceptable latency; not *ultra* low latency, just acceptable one) is a 
sign that they're not designed right.

And OSS4 dying because of kernel-mixing is a bit far-stretched.  "No FP 
mixing in kernel" is Linux-specific.  Other kernels don't have a problem 
with that.

And in the end, you know what?  Even if OSS4 had a broken design, it's 
still better, because it works better.  At least it gets the basics 
right.  Other operating systems are much more advanced in that manner. 
It's ALSA that holds Linux audio back.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag 22 Mai 2010, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 05/22/2010 07:59 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> > On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Nikos Chantziaras<realnc@arcor.de>  
wrote:
> >> Latency is the delay between giving the order to play a sound and the
> >> sound actually being played.  It's usually around 30ms here with
> >> ALSA/dmix, and around 10ms with OSS/vmix.  It's not funny trying to
> >> play something in a software synth with a keyboard when having a 30ms
> >> latency.
> > 
> > As I said, you're doing it wrong. No "normal" (average desktop, media
> > center, laptop, linux-phone) user needs 10ms of latency in audio.
> > That's overkill. Yours is a special case, and you need special
> > software. Try Jack.
> 
> I don't do professional audio.  I have a normal PC.  And just like I
> sometimes use a synth in Windows (I'm just a hobbyist), I'd like to do
> the same in Linux.
> 
> Windows: I don't need Jack there.  Audio latency is low even with
> non-ASIO drivers.
> 
> Linux: I suddenly need "Jack" and specialty hacks and must do without a
> mixer!  No thanks.  OSSv4 allows me to use my machine in the same manner
> as Windows: It just works and does the right thing regardless of the
> application I'm running.
> 
> ALSA/Pulse needing third-party stuff just to get basics right
> (acceptable latency; not *ultra* low latency, just acceptable one) is a
> sign that they're not designed right.
> 
> And OSS4 dying because of kernel-mixing is a bit far-stretched.  "No FP
> mixing in kernel" is Linux-specific.  Other kernels don't have a problem
> with that.
> 
> And in the end, you know what?  Even if OSS4 had a broken design, it's
> still better, because it works better.  At least it gets the basics
> right.  Other operating systems are much more advanced in that manner.
> It's ALSA that holds Linux audio back.

in case that it works at all. OSSv4 fucked up very hard here.

And for some magical reasons, I have no problem at all with latencies.

But sometimes you complain about latencies, and when people showing up, that 
lats are not a problem, you switch over to 'volume' and 'mixing'. Just to 
ignore the facts presented there.

Go troll somewhere else. Maybe the OSS fanboy mailing list.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote:
[snip]
> I don't do professional audio.  I have a normal PC.  And just like I
> sometimes use a synth in Windows (I'm just a hobbyist), I'd like to do the
> same in Linux.

You can; but you have to use special software, because yours is a
special case. The normal desktop/laptop user does not use a synth.

> ALSA/Pulse needing third-party stuff just to get basics right (acceptable
> latency; not *ultra* low latency, just acceptable one) is a sign that
> they're not designed right.

Your definition of "acceptable" is *ultra* low to me, and many others.
To me acceptable latency means that the audio system does not waste my
laptop/phone battery.

> And in the end, you know what?  Even if OSS4 had a broken design, it's still
> better, because it works better.

This is your principal problem: you think your use-case is universal,
and it's not. To me Alsa+PulseAudio works better because it allows the
battery of my laptop to last for hours while I see a movie with my
bluetooth headset. With the latencies you want, that's not possible. I
believe my use-case is more general.

>  At least it gets the basics right.  Other
> operating systems are much more advanced in that manner. It's ALSA that
> holds Linux audio back.

Jack uses ALSA. From the Jack FAQ page (http://jackaudio.org/faq):

<quote>
Doesn't use JACK add latency?

There is NO extra latency caused by using JACK for audio input and
output. When we say none, we mean absolutely zero. The only impact of
using JACK is a slight increase in the amount of work done by the CPU
to process a given chunk of audio, which means that in theory you
could not get 100% of the processing power that you might get it if
your application(s) used ALSA or CoreAudio directly. However, given
that the difference is less than 1%, and that your system will be
unstable before you get close to 80% of the theoretical processing
power, the effect is completely disregardable.
</quote>

ALSA works great. And for regular users, with PulseAudio both are full
of awesome awesomeness. For your use-case, you should try Jack.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Instituto de Matemáticas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Barry Jibb]

On 22/05/10 21:26, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Nikos Chantziaras<realnc@arcor.de>  wrote:
> [snip]
>    
>> I don't do professional audio.  I have a normal PC.  And just like I
>> sometimes use a synth in Windows (I'm just a hobbyist), I'd like to do the
>> same in Linux.
>>      
> You can; but you have to use special software, because yours is a
> special case. The normal desktop/laptop user does not use a synth.
>
>    
>> ALSA/Pulse needing third-party stuff just to get basics right (acceptable
>> latency; not *ultra* low latency, just acceptable one) is a sign that
>> they're not designed right.
>>      
> Your definition of "acceptable" is *ultra* low to me, and many others.
> To me acceptable latency means that the audio system does not waste my
> laptop/phone battery.
>
>    
>> And in the end, you know what?  Even if OSS4 had a broken design, it's still
>> better, because it works better.
>>      
> This is your principal problem: you think your use-case is universal,
> and it's not. To me Alsa+PulseAudio works better because it allows the
> battery of my laptop to last for hours while I see a movie with my
> bluetooth headset. With the latencies you want, that's not possible. I
> believe my use-case is more general.
>
>    
>>   At least it gets the basics right.  Other
>> operating systems are much more advanced in that manner. It's ALSA that
>> holds Linux audio back.
>>      
> Jack uses ALSA. From the Jack FAQ page (http://jackaudio.org/faq):
>
> <quote>
> Doesn't use JACK add latency?
>
> There is NO extra latency caused by using JACK for audio input and
> output. When we say none, we mean absolutely zero. The only impact of
> using JACK is a slight increase in the amount of work done by the CPU
> to process a given chunk of audio, which means that in theory you
> could not get 100% of the processing power that you might get it if
> your application(s) used ALSA or CoreAudio directly. However, given
> that the difference is less than 1%, and that your system will be
> unstable before you get close to 80% of the theoretical processing
> power, the effect is completely disregardable.
> </quote>
>
> ALSA works great. And for regular users, with PulseAudio both are full
> of awesome awesomeness. For your use-case, you should try Jack.
>
> Regards.
>    
Can someone unsubscribe me please?!?!?!?!?!?

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag 22 Mai 2010, Barry Jibb wrote:
> On 22/05/10 21:26, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> > On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Nikos Chantziaras<realnc@arcor.de> 
> > wrote: [snip]
> > 
> >> I don't do professional audio.  I have a normal PC.  And just like I
> >> sometimes use a synth in Windows (I'm just a hobbyist), I'd like to do
> >> the same in Linux.
> > 
> > You can; but you have to use special software, because yours is a
> > special case. The normal desktop/laptop user does not use a synth.
> > 
> >> ALSA/Pulse needing third-party stuff just to get basics right
> >> (acceptable latency; not *ultra* low latency, just acceptable one) is a
> >> sign that they're not designed right.
> > 
> > Your definition of "acceptable" is *ultra* low to me, and many others.
> > To me acceptable latency means that the audio system does not waste my
> > laptop/phone battery.
> > 
> >> And in the end, you know what?  Even if OSS4 had a broken design, it's
> >> still better, because it works better.
> > 
> > This is your principal problem: you think your use-case is universal,
> > and it's not. To me Alsa+PulseAudio works better because it allows the
> > battery of my laptop to last for hours while I see a movie with my
> > bluetooth headset. With the latencies you want, that's not possible. I
> > believe my use-case is more general.
> > 
> >>   At least it gets the basics right.  Other
> >> 
> >> operating systems are much more advanced in that manner. It's ALSA that
> >> holds Linux audio back.
> > 
> > Jack uses ALSA. From the Jack FAQ page (http://jackaudio.org/faq):
> > 
> > <quote>
> > Doesn't use JACK add latency?
> > 
> > There is NO extra latency caused by using JACK for audio input and
> > output. When we say none, we mean absolutely zero. The only impact of
> > using JACK is a slight increase in the amount of work done by the CPU
> > to process a given chunk of audio, which means that in theory you
> > could not get 100% of the processing power that you might get it if
> > your application(s) used ALSA or CoreAudio directly. However, given
> > that the difference is less than 1%, and that your system will be
> > unstable before you get close to 80% of the theoretical processing
> > power, the effect is completely disregardable.
> > </quote>
> > 
> > ALSA works great. And for regular users, with PulseAudio both are full
> > of awesome awesomeness. For your use-case, you should try Jack.
> > 
> > Regards.
> 
> Can someone unsubscribe me please?!?!?!?!?!?

READ THE FUCKING HELP IN THE EMAIL HEADER:
List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-user+help@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-user.gentoo.org>
X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org

UNSUBSCRIBE YOURSELF

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote:
[...]
> because you're not using software that needs good latency, like software
> synthesizers) but I do.

Then you're doing it wrong. If you are doing professional audio (a
little fact, that, by the way, you *NEVER* mentioned; you talked about
boot times and FPS in games, but not about professional audio), using
PulseAudio it's not going to work for you. Lennart himself said so.

But even in the case of professional audio, OSS4 is not the answer.
Because the mixing it belongs in user space, not the kernel. The
answer you should look at, is Jack:

http://jackaudio.org/

And Jack runs in user space, obviously, and on top of ALSA. And it has
*incredible* low latencies; you should try it Lennart wrote a
comparison between Jack and PulseAudio:

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/when-pa-and-when-not.html

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Instituto de Matemáticas
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Samstag 22 Mai 2010, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
> On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Nikos Chantziaras <realnc@arcor.de> wrote:
> [...]
> 
> > because you're not using software that needs good latency, like software
> > synthesizers) but I do.
> 
> Then you're doing it wrong. If you are doing professional audio (a
> little fact, that, by the way, you *NEVER* mentioned; you talked about
> boot times and FPS in games, but not about professional audio), using
> PulseAudio it's not going to work for you. Lennart himself said so.
> 
> But even in the case of professional audio, OSS4 is not the answer.
> Because the mixing it belongs in user space, not the kernel. The
> answer you should look at, is Jack:
> 
> http://jackaudio.org/
> 
> And Jack runs in user space, obviously, and on top of ALSA. And it has
> *incredible* low latencies; you should try it Lennart wrote a
> comparison between Jack and PulseAudio:
> 
> http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/when-pa-and-when-not.html
> 
> Regards.

your posts are in vain. He wants to troll and just show how 'superior' OSSv4 
is. To do that he uses the crappiest solutions, whines a lot and ignores 
facts.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Fabian Köster]

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> I think pulse is a very long answer to a very short question and so I did
> away with it months ago.  And I haven't regretted it.
> 
> Truly, I think very few people need pulse outside of professionals who work
> in film or music.  The main reason others have disagreed with my opinion is
> because your silly desktop sounds like beeps and boings and toilets
> flushing interrupt the CD you're listening to.  Uh, well, yeah, one sound
> generally interrupts another, true.  So what?
> 
> I'll bet your audio would do what you expect it to do if you just removed
> every trace of pulse from your machine and run revdep-rebuild with the
> pulse, arts, and esd useflags disabled (if those flags still exist).
> 
> Contrary opinions will follow shortly ;)

ok.. the reason why I use PulseAudio at all is because I need sound forwarding 
over network. I have an IGEPv2 board which is connected using USB-sound to my 
amplifier. This works fine by the way, but not using KDE applications..


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Re: [gentoo-user] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Jonathan]

On Wed, 19 May 2010 21:59:08 +0200
Fabian Köster <koesterreich@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi *,
> 
> I am currently trying to use Phonon and PulseAudio and have the following 
> problem:
> 
> When I play some Video with a Non-KDE application like VLC everything is 
> perfectly directed to the local PulseAudio running on my machine and i have 
> the expected sound-output.
> 
> But when I use a KDE-Application like Kaffeine or Amarok there is no sound 
> output although the stream is listed by pavucontrol. The volume-indicator for 
> the stream does not show any activity.
> 
> Does anybody have an idea what is causing this misbehavior? Or any hint on 
> debugging this? When I run pulseaudio -vvv I cannot see any suspicious output 
> (see below)
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Fabian

Give this a read http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Network

Re: [gentoo-user] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Fabian Köster]

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> Give this a read http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Network

Looks interesting and much more simple than PulseAudio ;)

Thanks!

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[gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Fabian Köster]

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> When I play some Video with a Non-KDE application like VLC everything is
> perfectly directed to the local PulseAudio running on my machine and i have
> the expected sound-output.
> 
> But when I use a KDE-Application like Kaffeine or Amarok there is no sound
> output although the stream is listed by pavucontrol. The volume-indicator
> for the stream does not show any activity.

I asked on pulseaudio-discuss and they could help me: It is a bug in Phonon 
4.4.1 and the two patches mentioned in the post by Colin Guthrie [1] solve the 
problem for me.

I also filed a bug report in Gentoo about this issue [2].

Finally KDE + PulseAudio rock! Despite the huge amount of criticism of 
PulseAudio on this list it really works good for me and I am quite happy :)

btw: KDE PulseAudio-integration is also becoming better from a usability 
standpoint in the future: [3] 

Regards,
Fabian

[1] https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2010-
May/007263.html
[2] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321155
[3] http://colin.guthr.ie/tag/kde/

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Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Barry Jibb]

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I WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE

2010/5/23 Fabian Köster <koesterreich@gmx.net>

>
> > When I play some Video with a Non-KDE application like VLC everything is
> > perfectly directed to the local PulseAudio running on my machine and i
> have
> > the expected sound-output.
> >
> > But when I use a KDE-Application like Kaffeine or Amarok there is no
> sound
> > output although the stream is listed by pavucontrol. The volume-indicator
> > for the stream does not show any activity.
>
> I asked on pulseaudio-discuss and they could help me: It is a bug in Phonon
> 4.4.1 and the two patches mentioned in the post by Colin Guthrie [1] solve
> the
> problem for me.
>
> I also filed a bug report in Gentoo about this issue [2].
>
> Finally KDE + PulseAudio rock! Despite the huge amount of criticism of
> PulseAudio on this list it really works good for me and I am quite happy :)
>
> btw: KDE PulseAudio-integration is also becoming better from a usability
> standpoint in the future: [3]
>
> Regards,
> Fabian
>
> [1] https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2010-
> May/007263.html<https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2010-%0AMay/007263.html>
> [2] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321155
> [3] http://colin.guthr.ie/tag/kde/
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Fabian Köster]

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> I WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE

Maybe you should just do it and stop making noise:

gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org

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Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Sunday 23 May 2010, Fabian Köster wrote:

> > I WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE
> 
> Maybe you should just do it and stop making noise:
> 
> gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org

It would be great if mailing list software could be configured so that only 
users who demonstrate they know how to unsubscribe could subscribe in the 
first place. Example:

- user subscribes
- mailing list replies: "please unsubscribe and subscribe again"
- if user fails to do so within a configurable amount of time, forcibly 
unsubscribe him
- if user succeeds, leave him subscribed after the second subscription.

Just saying...

Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Indexer]

On 23/05/2010, at 8:51 PM, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:

> On Sunday 23 May 2010, Fabian Köster wrote:
> 
>>> I WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE
>> 
>> Maybe you should just do it and stop making noise:
>> 
>> gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org
> 
> It would be great if mailing list software could be configured so that only 
> users who demonstrate they know how to unsubscribe could subscribe in the 
> first place. Example:
> 
> - user subscribes
> - mailing list replies: "please unsubscribe and subscribe again"
> - if user fails to do so within a configurable amount of time, forcibly 
> unsubscribe him
> - if user succeeds, leave him subscribed after the second subscription.
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> 
You may as well attach an IQ test as well. The fact is that it is easy to read how to unsubscribe, as well as that it is simple to not click and open every piece of email you recieve, so complaints like this are rather baseless. 

Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Sunday 23 May 2010, Indexer wrote:
> On 23/05/2010, at 8:51 PM, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> > On Sunday 23 May 2010, Fabian Köster wrote:
> >>> I WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE
> >>
> >> Maybe you should just do it and stop making noise:
> >>
> >> gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org
> >
> > It would be great if mailing list software could be configured so that
> > only users who demonstrate they know how to unsubscribe could subscribe
> > in the first place. Example:
> >
> > - user subscribes
> > - mailing list replies: "please unsubscribe and subscribe again"
> > - if user fails to do so within a configurable amount of time, forcibly
> > unsubscribe him
> > - if user succeeds, leave him subscribed after the second subscription.
> >
> > Just saying...
> 
> You may as well attach an IQ test as well. The fact is that it is easy to
>  read how to unsubscribe, as well as that it is simple to not click and
>  open every piece of email you recieve, so complaints like this are rather
>  baseless.

Uh? If it's so easy to read how to unsubscribe, why so many people 
periodically beg for help to unsubscribe, or send useless "unsubscribe" 
messages to mailing lists?
And yes, it's not so strange that to be accepted as part of a group you may be 
asked to demonstrate that you know what the rules are. It happens all the time 
in fact.

Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday 23 May 2010 12:21:39 Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:

> It would be great if mailing list software could be configured so
> that only users who demonstrate they know how to unsubscribe could
> subscribe in the first place. Example:
> 
> - user subscribes
> - mailing list replies: "please unsubscribe and subscribe again"
> - if user fails to do so within a configurable amount of time,
> forcibly unsubscribe him
> - if user succeeds, leave him subscribed after the second
> subscription.

And how often would you impose refresher tests? Anyone's memory is 
fallible, as no-one knows better than I do.

Better for this purpose would be to require all mailing lists to operate 
in the same way, but that's equally unlikely, as well as undesirable.

> Just saying...

What does that mean? I had a mother-in-law once who often added it to a 
critical remark, and I never understood what she meant by it either.

-- 
Rgds
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Sonntag 23 Mai 2010, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Sunday 23 May 2010 12:21:39 Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> > It would be great if mailing list software could be configured so
> > that only users who demonstrate they know how to unsubscribe could
> > subscribe in the first place. Example:
> > 
> > - user subscribes
> > - mailing list replies: "please unsubscribe and subscribe again"
> > - if user fails to do so within a configurable amount of time,
> > forcibly unsubscribe him
> > - if user succeeds, leave him subscribed after the second
> > subscription.
> 
> And how often would you impose refresher tests? Anyone's memory is
> fallible, as no-one knows better than I do.
> 
> Better for this purpose would be to require all mailing lists to operate
> in the same way, but that's equally unlikely, as well as undesirable.
> 
> > Just saying...
> 
> What does that mean? I had a mother-in-law once who often added it to a
> critical remark, and I never understood what she meant by it either.

and for the uncurable stupid, unsubscribe instructions are in the header of 
every mail send:

List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-user+help@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-user+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-user.gentoo.org>

oh noes! help!

Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Sunday 23 May 2010, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Sonntag 23 Mai 2010, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > On Sunday 23 May 2010 12:21:39 Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> > > It would be great if mailing list software could be configured so
> > > that only users who demonstrate they know how to unsubscribe could
> > > subscribe in the first place. Example:
> > >
> > > - user subscribes
> > > - mailing list replies: "please unsubscribe and subscribe again"
> > > - if user fails to do so within a configurable amount of time,
> > > forcibly unsubscribe him
> > > - if user succeeds, leave him subscribed after the second
> > > subscription.
> >
> > And how often would you impose refresher tests? Anyone's memory is
> > fallible, as no-one knows better than I do.
> >
> > Better for this purpose would be to require all mailing lists to operate
> > in the same way, but that's equally unlikely, as well as undesirable.
> >
> > > Just saying...
> >
> > What does that mean? I had a mother-in-law once who often added it to a
> > critical remark, and I never understood what she meant by it either.
> 
> and for the uncurable stupid, unsubscribe instructions are in the header of
> every mail send:

I wouldn't call people who don't know how to unsubscribe stupid, as they most 
certainly aren't.
But for sure, they should know how to find that information if needed, and all 
the "HELP UNSUBSCRIBE" kind of messages clearly show that they don't.

And even your posting of the instructions now, cannot help future subscribers 
who won't read your email. That's why it would probably be better (in my 
opinion) to append the instructions to every message. But this is a very old 
debate and was discussed to death many times in the past, so I'm certainly not 
going to further it (and I hope it won't start another endless thread).

(this is not directed to you Volker)

If somebody wants to flame or continue to criticize, feel free to do that, I 
won't reply anyway as I have nothing more to add to what I've said already.

Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Sonntag 23 Mai 2010, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> On Sunday 23 May 2010, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Sonntag 23 Mai 2010, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > On Sunday 23 May 2010 12:21:39 Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> > > > It would be great if mailing list software could be configured so
> > > > that only users who demonstrate they know how to unsubscribe could
> > > > subscribe in the first place. Example:
> > > > 
> > > > - user subscribes
> > > > - mailing list replies: "please unsubscribe and subscribe again"
> > > > - if user fails to do so within a configurable amount of time,
> > > > forcibly unsubscribe him
> > > > - if user succeeds, leave him subscribed after the second
> > > > subscription.
> > > 
> > > And how often would you impose refresher tests? Anyone's memory is
> > > fallible, as no-one knows better than I do.
> > > 
> > > Better for this purpose would be to require all mailing lists to
> > > operate in the same way, but that's equally unlikely, as well as
> > > undesirable.
> > > 
> > > > Just saying...
> > > 
> > > What does that mean? I had a mother-in-law once who often added it to a
> > > critical remark, and I never understood what she meant by it either.
> > 
> > and for the uncurable stupid, unsubscribe instructions are in the header
> > of
> 
> > every mail send:
> I wouldn't call people who don't know how to unsubscribe stupid, as they
> most certainly aren't.
> But for sure, they should know how to find that information if needed, and
> all the "HELP UNSUBSCRIBE" kind of messages clearly show that they don't.
> 
> And even your posting of the instructions now, cannot help future
> subscribers who won't read your email. That's why it would probably be
> better (in my opinion) to append the instructions to every message. But
> this is a very old debate and was discussed to death many times in the
> past, so I'm certainly not going to further it (and I hope it won't start
> another endless thread).
> 
> (this is not directed to you Volker)
> 
> If somebody wants to flame or continue to criticize, feel free to do that,
> I won't reply anyway as I have nothing more to add to what I've said
> already.

yeah, 'search mailing list archive' is such a hard thing to do. Why again 
should laziness be tolerated?

Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

On Sunday 23 May 2010, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Sunday 23 May 2010 12:21:39 Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> > It would be great if mailing list software could be configured so
> > that only users who demonstrate they know how to unsubscribe could
> > subscribe in the first place. Example:
> >
> > - user subscribes
> > - mailing list replies: "please unsubscribe and subscribe again"
> > - if user fails to do so within a configurable amount of time,
> > forcibly unsubscribe him
> > - if user succeeds, leave him subscribed after the second
> > subscription.
> 
> And how often would you impose refresher tests? Anyone's memory is
> fallible, as no-one knows better than I do.
> 
> Better for this purpose would be to require all mailing lists to operate
> in the same way, but that's equally unlikely, as well as undesirable.

I would be in favour of that. As I said, many things we do in our lives 
require active proofs of minimal clue, be it once or periodical. The need is 
greater if those activities involve people other than you. It's just common 
sense.

In many cases, cluelessness harms; the consequences can be very serious (think 
driving a car without a licence), moderately serious (for example, setting up 
unsecured wi-fi), or just annoying (mailing list).
So yes, it's not a big deal, it's just annoying to (some of) the other 
subscribers; but nonetheless,in my opinion participating in a mailing list 
could require proof of minimal clue. In most cases, it doesn't; I'm not going 
to start an argument for this, but hopefully one is still allowed to express 
his opinion.

And of course nobody wants you to remeber everything, which would be silly. 
But having a clue means that you know how to find the information when you 
need it (in most cases, that means nothing more than you are able to read the 
instructions; most people seem unable to do even something that simple).
 
In the specific case of the Gentoo mailing lists, it would probably help to 
append the list instructions at the bottom of each message (as many other 
lists do), rather than having it only in the headers.

Now, people can flame me as much as they want, I won't reply. I just expressed 
my views, and other people are obviously perfectly free to disagree.

> > Just saying...
> 
> What does that mean? I had a mother-in-law once who often added it to a
> critical remark, and I never understood what she meant by it either.

One minute of google turns up

http://painintheenglish.com/?p=958
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=i%27m%20just%20sayin%27

Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Willie Wong]

On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 03:05:03PM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> And how often would you impose refresher tests? Anyone's memory is 
> fallible, as no-one knows better than I do.

You just don't remember someone knowing it better. :)

W
-- 
Willie W. Wong                                     wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire 
         et vice versa   ~~~  I. Newton

Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Peter Humphrey]

On Sunday 23 May 2010 18:43:26 Willie Wong wrote:
> On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 03:05:03PM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > And how often would you impose refresher tests? Anyone's memory is
> > fallible, as no-one knows better than I do.
> 
> You just don't remember someone knowing it better. :)

Who said that?

-- 
Rgds
Peter.

Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 23 May 2010 12:21:39 +0100, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:

> It would be great if mailing list software could be configured so that
> only users who demonstrate they know how to unsubscribe could subscribe
> in the first place. Example:
> 
> - user subscribes
> - mailing list replies: "please unsubscribe and subscribe again"
> - if user fails to do so within a configurable amount of time, forcibly 
> unsubscribe him
> - if user succeeds, leave him subscribed after the second subscription.

Greylisting for real people :)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I can't walk on water, but I can stagger on alcohol.

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Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Fabian Köster]

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> I WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE

Maybe you should just do it and stop making noise:

gentoo-user+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org

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Re: [gentoo-user] [SOLVED] Phonon + PulseAudio Problem

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 23 May 2010 11:38:55 +0100, Barry Jibb wrote:

> I WANT TO UNSUBSCRIBE

Here's how to unsubscribe:

First, ask your Internet Provider to mail you an Unsubscribing Kit.
Then follow these directions.

The kit will most likely be the standard no-fault type. Depending on
requirements, System A and/or System B can be used. When operating
System A, depress lever and a plastic dalkron unsubscriber will be
dispensed through the slot immediately underneath. When you have
fastened the adhesive lip, attach connection marked by the large "X"
outlet hose. Twist the silver-coloured ring one inch below the
connection point until you feel it lock.

The kit is now ready for use. The Cin-Eliminator is activated by the
small switch on the lip.  When securing, twist the ring back to its
initial condition, so that the two orange lines meet.  Disconnect.
Place the dalkron unsubscriber in the vacuum receptacle to the rear.
Activate by pressing the blue button.

The controls for System B are located on the opposite side. The red
release switch places the Cin-Eliminator into position; it can be
adjusted manually up or down by pressing the blue manual release
button. The opening is self-adjusting. To secure after use, press the
green button, which simultaneously activates the evaporator and
returns the Cin-Eliminator to its storage position.

You may log off if the green exit light is on over the evaporator.  If
the red light is illuminated, one of the Cin-Eliminator requirements
has not been properly implemented. Press the "List Guy" call button on
the right of the evaporator. He will secure all facilities from his
control panel.

To use the Auto-Unsub, first undress and place all your clothes in the
clothes rack. Put on the velcro slippers located in the cabinet
immediately below. Enter the shower, taking the entire kit with
you. On the control panel to your upper right upon entering you will
see a "Shower seal" button. Press to activate. A green light will then
be illuminated immediately below. On the intensity knob, select the
desired setting. Now depress the Auto-Unsub activation lever. Bathe
normally.

The Auto-Unsub will automatically go off after three minutes unless
you activate the "Manual off" override switch by flipping it up. When
you are ready to leave, press the blue "Shower seal" release
button. The door will open and you may leave. Please remove the velcro
slippers and place them in their container.

If you prefer the ultrasonic log-off mode, press the indicated blue
button. When the twin panels open, pull forward by rings A & B. The
knob to the left, just below the blue light, has three settings, low,
medium or high. For normal use, the medium setting is suggested.

After these settings have been made, you can activate the device by
switching to the "ON" position the clearly marked red switch. If
during the unsubscribing operation you wish to change the settings,
place the "manual off" override switch in the "OFF" position. You may
now make the change and repeat the cycle. When the green exit light
goes on, you may log off and have lunch. Please close the door behind
you.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If you think talk is cheap, try hiring a lawyer.

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