[gentoo-user] Can't hear anything. :-(

[gentoo-user] Can't hear anything. :-(

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, gentoo,

I'm trying to get sound to sound on my new Gentoo box, following the
"Gentoo Linux ALSA Guide".  Everything seems to be working fine, except
no sound is coming out of my loudspeakers.

I've checked the obvious things: the speakers are plugged in, switched
on and connected to the appropriate socket on my motherboard (the light
green one).

I have drivers for my motherboard's sound chips compiled into my kernel,
and they are correctly identified by alsamixer.  With alsamixer I've
unmuted various things and turned up the volume.

madplay appears to play an mp3 file I have.  Just that no actual sound
comes out.

One other strange thing: the titles under the "volume bars" in alsamixer
are very different from the ones in the document: Instead of "Master /
Headphone / Tone / Bass / Treble / 3D Contr / PCM", I've got " Master /
Headphon / Front / Front Mi / Surround / Center / LFE / Side / Line /
Mic / Mic Boos / S/PDIF / S/PDIF D / Beep".  Why is this?  In
particular, I'm missing the "PCM" volume bar which the documentation
says is so important to unmute.

What am I missing here?

Thanks in advance!

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] Can't hear anything. :-(

[bn]

Alan Mackenzie ha scritto:
> Hi, gentoo,
> 
> I'm trying to get sound to sound on my new Gentoo box, following the
> "Gentoo Linux ALSA Guide".  Everything seems to be working fine, except
> no sound is coming out of my loudspeakers.
> 
> I've checked the obvious things: the speakers are plugged in, switched
> on and connected to the appropriate socket on my motherboard (the light
> green one).
> 
> I have drivers for my motherboard's sound chips compiled into my kernel,
> and they are correctly identified by alsamixer.  With alsamixer I've
> unmuted various things and turned up the volume.
> 
> madplay appears to play an mp3 file I have.  Just that no actual sound
> comes out.
> 
> One other strange thing: the titles under the "volume bars" in alsamixer
> are very different from the ones in the document: Instead of "Master /
> Headphone / Tone / Bass / Treble / 3D Contr / PCM", I've got " Master /
> Headphon / Front / Front Mi / Surround / Center / LFE / Side / Line /
> Mic / Mic Boos / S/PDIF / S/PDIF D / Beep".  Why is this?  In
> particular, I'm missing the "PCM" volume bar which the documentation
> says is so important to unmute.
> 
> What am I missing here?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 

Have you tried this?
http://www.pubbs.net/gentoo/200912/63563/

I had a similar problem, I hope it helps. Drivers are one thing, but
codecs another.

m.

Re: [gentoo-user] Can't hear anything. :-(

[Robin Atwood]

On Tuesday 16 February 2010, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> Hi, gentoo,
> 
> I'm trying to get sound to sound on my new Gentoo box, following the
> "Gentoo Linux ALSA Guide".  Everything seems to be working fine, except
> no sound is coming out of my loudspeakers.
> 
> I've checked the obvious things: the speakers are plugged in, switched
> on and connected to the appropriate socket on my motherboard (the light
> green one).
> 
> I have drivers for my motherboard's sound chips compiled into my kernel,
> and they are correctly identified by alsamixer.  With alsamixer I've
> unmuted various things and turned up the volume.
> 
> madplay appears to play an mp3 file I have.  Just that no actual sound
> comes out.
> 
> One other strange thing: the titles under the "volume bars" in alsamixer
> are very different from the ones in the document: Instead of "Master /
> Headphone / Tone / Bass / Treble / 3D Contr / PCM", I've got " Master /
> Headphon / Front / Front Mi / Surround / Center / LFE / Side / Line /
> Mic / Mic Boos / S/PDIF / S/PDIF D / Beep".  Why is this?  In
> particular, I'm missing the "PCM" volume bar which the documentation
> says is so important to unmute.
> 
> What am I missing here?
> 
> Thanks in advance!

I had a similar problem with an Audigy (CA0106) card. If depends if you have 
analogue or digital speakers. If they are analog the S/PDIF slider must be 
*muted* or there is no sound. This is counter-intuitive since one's first 
action with Alsa is to unmute everything!

HTH
-Robin
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robin Atwood.

"Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst,
 Where there ain't no Ten Commandments an' a man can raise a thirst"
         from "Mandalay" by Rudyard Kipling
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [gentoo-user] Can't hear anything. :-(

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Robin,

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 11:56:53PM +0700, Robin Atwood wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 February 2010, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> > Hi, gentoo,

> > I'm trying to get sound to sound on my new Gentoo box, following the
> > "Gentoo Linux ALSA Guide".  Everything seems to be working fine, except
> > no sound is coming out of my loudspeakers.

> > I've checked the obvious things: the speakers are plugged in, switched
> > on and connected to the appropriate socket on my motherboard (the light
> > green one).

> > I have drivers for my motherboard's sound chips compiled into my kernel,
> > and they are correctly identified by alsamixer.  With alsamixer I've
> > unmuted various things and turned up the volume.

> > madplay appears to play an mp3 file I have.  Just that no actual sound
> > comes out.

> > One other strange thing: the titles under the "volume bars" in alsamixer
> > are very different from the ones in the document: Instead of "Master /
> > Headphone / Tone / Bass / Treble / 3D Contr / PCM", I've got " Master /
> > Headphon / Front / Front Mi / Surround / Center / LFE / Side / Line /
> > Mic / Mic Boos / S/PDIF / S/PDIF D / Beep".  Why is this?  In
> > particular, I'm missing the "PCM" volume bar which the documentation
> > says is so important to unmute.

> > What am I missing here?

> > Thanks in advance!

> I had a similar problem with an Audigy (CA0106) card. If depends if you have 
> analogue or digital speakers. If they are analog the S/PDIF slider must be 
> *muted* or there is no sound. This is counter-intuitive since one's first 
> action with Alsa is to unmute everything!

I believe the speakers are analogue, but I don't know for sure - there's
nothing in any documentation to say so, and I couldn't find anything
relevant on the net.  They're a pair of Altec Lansing "expressionist
BASS", black desk standing speakers that look a bit like daleks
(mechanical badies from the british science fiction series Doctor Who).

I've set both S/PDIF and "S/PDIF Default PCM" to muted.  No joy.

> HTH
> -Robin

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] Can't hear anything. :-(

[Mark Knecht]

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 6:54 AM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
> Hi, gentoo,
>
> I'm trying to get sound to sound on my new Gentoo box, following the
> "Gentoo Linux ALSA Guide".  Everything seems to be working fine, except
> no sound is coming out of my loudspeakers.
>
> I've checked the obvious things: the speakers are plugged in, switched
> on and connected to the appropriate socket on my motherboard (the light
> green one).
>
> I have drivers for my motherboard's sound chips compiled into my kernel,
> and they are correctly identified by alsamixer.  With alsamixer I've
> unmuted various things and turned up the volume.
>
> madplay appears to play an mp3 file I have.  Just that no actual sound
> comes out.
>
> One other strange thing: the titles under the "volume bars" in alsamixer
> are very different from the ones in the document: Instead of "Master /
> Headphone / Tone / Bass / Treble / 3D Contr / PCM", I've got " Master /
> Headphon / Front / Front Mi / Surround / Center / LFE / Side / Line /
> Mic / Mic Boos / S/PDIF / S/PDIF D / Beep".  Why is this?  In
> particular, I'm missing the "PCM" volume bar which the documentation
> says is so important to unmute.
>
> What am I missing here?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> --
> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
>

Did you get this worked out yet? VERY strange that you don't see pcm
as a mixer control...

It's a bit hard to say much with so little info but I'll offer a
couple of things:

1) IMO Alsa has never run so well when drivers are compiled into the
kernel. I do a lot of audio in Linux and have always had the best
results using modules. I would strongly suggest you give it a try...

2) Under /proc/asound/card0 (or whatever card you are using if you
have more than 1) do you see any pcm directories?

3) Post back a little more info?

cat /proc/asound/cards
aplay -l
aplay -L
lsmod

Good luck,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Can't hear anything. :-(

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Mark,

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 04:20:53PM -0800, Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 6:54 AM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
> > Hi, gentoo,

> > I'm trying to get sound to sound on my new Gentoo box, following the
> > "Gentoo Linux ALSA Guide".  Everything seems to be working fine, except
> > no sound is coming out of my loudspeakers.

> > I've checked the obvious things: the speakers are plugged in, switched
> > on and connected to the appropriate socket on my motherboard (the light
> > green one).

> > I have drivers for my motherboard's sound chips compiled into my kernel,
> > and they are correctly identified by alsamixer.  With alsamixer I've
> > unmuted various things and turned up the volume.

> > madplay appears to play an mp3 file I have.  Just that no actual sound
> > comes out.

> > One other strange thing: the titles under the "volume bars" in alsamixer
> > are very different from the ones in the document: Instead of "Master /
> > Headphone / Tone / Bass / Treble / 3D Contr / PCM", I've got " Master /
> > Headphon / Front / Front Mi / Surround / Center / LFE / Side / Line /
> > Mic / Mic Boos / S/PDIF / S/PDIF D / Beep".  Why is this?  In
> > particular, I'm missing the "PCM" volume bar which the documentation
> > says is so important to unmute.

> > What am I missing here?

> > Thanks in advance!

> > --
> > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).


> Did you get this worked out yet? 

Not yet, no.

> VERY strange that you don't see pcm as a mixer control...

I've got alsamixer 1.0.21.  Could it be that it choses its controls
according to the capabilities of the sound card?

> It's a bit hard to say much with so little info but I'll offer a
> couple of things:

> 1) IMO Alsa has never run so well when drivers are compiled into the
> kernel. I do a lot of audio in Linux and have always had the best
> results using modules. I would strongly suggest you give it a try...

Oh deity!  I was hoping not to have to do this.  I've never used modules
before, since they are (or were) an unnecessary complication, and might
introduce security risks.  Maybe I'll have to read up on this.

> 2) Under /proc/asound/card0 (or whatever card you are using if you
> have more than 1) do you see any pcm directories?

    # ls /proc/asound/card0
      codec#0  id  oss_mixer  pcm0c  pcm0p pcm1p  pcm2c

, so yes, I can see some pcm directories.

> 3) Post back a little more info?

> cat /proc/asound/cards

   0 [SB             ]: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI SB
                        HDA ATI SB at 0xfbcf8000 irq 16
   1 [HDMI           ]: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI HDMI
                        HDA ATI HDMI at 0xfbffc000 irq 19


> aplay -l

   **** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices ****
   card 0: SB [HDA ATI SB], device 0: ALC1200 Analog [ALC1200 Analog]
     Subdevices: 1/1
     Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
   card 0: SB [HDA ATI SB], device 1: ALC1200 Digital [ALC1200 Digital]
     Subdevices: 1/1
     Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
   card 1: HDMI [HDA ATI HDMI], device 3: ATI HDMI [ATI HDMI]
     Subdevices: 1/1
     Subdevice #0: subdevice #0

> aplay -L

   default:CARD=SB
       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
       Default Audio Device
   front:CARD=SB,DEV=0
       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
       Front speakers
   surround40:CARD=SB,DEV=0
       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
       4.0 Surround output to Front and Rear speakers
   surround41:CARD=SB,DEV=0
       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
       4.1 Surround output to Front, Rear and Subwoofer speakers
   surround50:CARD=SB,DEV=0
       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
       5.0 Surround output to Front, Center and Rear speakers
   surround51:CARD=SB,DEV=0
       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
       5.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Rear and Subwoofer speakers
   surround71:CARD=SB,DEV=0
       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
       7.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Side, Rear and Woofer speakers
   iec958:CARD=SB,DEV=0
       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Digital
       IEC958 (S/PDIF) Digital Audio Output
   null
       Discard all samples (playback) or generate zero samples (capture)
   hdmi:CARD=HDMI
       HDA ATI HDMI, ATI HDMI
       HDMI Audio Output


> lsmod

   Opening /proc/modules: No such file or directory

> Good luck,

Thanks!

> Mark

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Re: [gentoo-user] Can't hear anything. :-(

[Roger Mason]

Hello Alan,

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

>> Did you get this worked out yet? 
>
> Not yet, no.
>
>> VERY strange that you don't see pcm as a mixer control...
>
> I've got alsamixer 1.0.21.  Could it be that it choses its controls
> according to the capabilities of the sound card?
>
>> It's a bit hard to say much with so little info but I'll offer a
>> couple of things:
>
>> 1) IMO Alsa has never run so well when drivers are compiled into the
>> kernel. I do a lot of audio in Linux and have always had the best
>> results using modules. I would strongly suggest you give it a try...
>
> Oh deity!  I was hoping not to have to do this.  I've never used modules
> before, since they are (or were) an unnecessary complication, and might
> introduce security risks.  Maybe I'll have to read up on this.
>
>> 2) Under /proc/asound/card0 (or whatever card you are using if you
>> have more than 1) do you see any pcm directories?
>
>     # ls /proc/asound/card0
>       codec#0  id  oss_mixer  pcm0c  pcm0p pcm1p  pcm2c
>
> , so yes, I can see some pcm directories.
>
>> 3) Post back a little more info?
>
>> cat /proc/asound/cards
>
>    0 [SB             ]: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI SB
>                         HDA ATI SB at 0xfbcf8000 irq 16
>    1 [HDMI           ]: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI HDMI
>                         HDA ATI HDMI at 0xfbffc000 irq 19
>
>
>> aplay -l
>
>    **** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices ****
>    card 0: SB [HDA ATI SB], device 0: ALC1200 Analog [ALC1200 Analog]
>      Subdevices: 1/1
>      Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
>    card 0: SB [HDA ATI SB], device 1: ALC1200 Digital [ALC1200 Digital]
>      Subdevices: 1/1
>      Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
>    card 1: HDMI [HDA ATI HDMI], device 3: ATI HDMI [ATI HDMI]
>      Subdevices: 1/1
>      Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
>
>> aplay -L
>
>    default:CARD=SB
>        HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>        Default Audio Device
>    front:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>        HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>        Front speakers
>    surround40:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>        HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>        4.0 Surround output to Front and Rear speakers
>    surround41:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>        HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>        4.1 Surround output to Front, Rear and Subwoofer speakers
>    surround50:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>        HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>        5.0 Surround output to Front, Center and Rear speakers
>    surround51:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>        HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>        5.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Rear and Subwoofer speakers
>    surround71:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>        HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>        7.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Side, Rear and Woofer speakers
>    iec958:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>        HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Digital
>        IEC958 (S/PDIF) Digital Audio Output
>    null
>        Discard all samples (playback) or generate zero samples (capture)
>    hdmi:CARD=HDMI
>        HDA ATI HDMI, ATI HDMI
>        HDMI Audio Output
>
>
>> lsmod
>
>    Opening /proc/modules: No such file or directory
>

I have Intel HDA and load the necessary drivers as modules.  I had to
add some "stuff" to the module configuration to get sound from my card,
which is:

pyrope ~ $ aplay -l
**** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices ****
card 0: Headset [Logitech USB Headset], device 0: USB Audio [USB Audio]
  Subdevices: 1/1
  Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
card 1: Intel [HDA Intel], device 0: ALC885 Analog [ALC885 Analog]
  Subdevices: 1/1
  Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
card 1: Intel [HDA Intel], device 1: ALC885 Digital [ALC885 Digital]
  Subdevices: 1/1
  Subdevice #0: subdevice #0

It was the ALC885 that was troublesome to get going.  Have a look in
/usr/src/linux/Documentation/sound/alsa/ at the HD*.txt for information.

Good luck,
Roger

[gentoo-user] Re: Can't hear anything. :-(

[Nikos Chantziaras]

On 02/17/2010 11:15 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 04:20:53PM -0800, Mark Knecht wrote:
>>[...]
>> 1) IMO Alsa has never run so well when drivers are compiled into the
>> kernel. I do a lot of audio in Linux and have always had the best
>> results using modules. I would strongly suggest you give it a try...
>
> Oh deity!  I was hoping not to have to do this.  I've never used modules
> before, since they are (or were) an unnecessary complication, and might
> introduce security risks.  Maybe I'll have to read up on this.

You probably won't need modules.  Module configuration options can 
usually be replaced by kernel options in Grub.

Re: [gentoo-user] Can't hear anything. :-(

[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
> Hi, Mark,
>
<SNIP>
>
>> VERY strange that you don't see pcm as a mixer control...
>
> I've got alsamixer 1.0.21.  Could it be that it choses its controls
> according to the capabilities of the sound card?
>

OK, so did you run alsaconf? This will often (but in my experience not
always) unmute everything required to get sound. However MANY people
(including myself for about a day) have had problems with the
HDA-Intel stuff. I'm not exactly sure what HDA ATI SB means thought.

If alsaconf finds and unmutes what you need to get sound then alsa run
alsactl store to save state.

BTW - On a new motherboard I found the Intel HDA analog output (the
green plug is analog) wouldn't drive cheap speakers at all. I get
sound on that output if I use headphones or a power amp but nothing at
all when driving cheap speakers with no power amp. That's the first
motherboard I've had which had this problem.

If you have some good headphones give them a try.

OK - what did you put in /etc/modprobe.d/alsa? Here's mine:

firefly ~ # cat /etc/modprobe.d/alsa.conf


# ALSA portion
alias char-major-116 snd
# OSS/Free portion
alias char-major-14 soundcore

### IMPORTANT:
### You need to customise this section for your specific sound card(s)
### and then run `update-modules' command.
### Read alsa-driver's INSTALL file in /usr/share/doc for more info.
###
###  ALSA portion
alias snd-card-0 snd-hda-intel
options snd-hda-intel index=0

alias snd-card-1 snd-hdsp
options snd-hdsp index=1

###  OSS/Free portion
alias sound-slot-0 snd-card-0
#alias sound-slot-1 snd-card-1
###
#
## OSS/Free portion - card #1
alias sound-service-0-0 snd-mixer-oss
alias sound-service-0-1 snd-seq-oss
alias sound-service-0-3 snd-pcm-oss
alias sound-service-0-8 snd-seq-oss
alias sound-service-0-12 snd-pcm-oss
###  OSS/Free portion - card #2
### alias sound-service-1-0 snd-mixer-oss
### alias sound-service-1-3 snd-pcm-oss
### alias sound-service-1-12 snd-pcm-oss
#
alias /dev/mixer snd-mixer-oss
alias /dev/dsp snd-pcm-oss
alias /dev/midi snd-seq-oss
#
## Set this to the correct number of cards.
options snd cards_limit=2
#
firefly ~ #

>> It's a bit hard to say much with so little info but I'll offer a
>> couple of things:
>
>> 1) IMO Alsa has never run so well when drivers are compiled into the
>> kernel. I do a lot of audio in Linux and have always had the best
>> results using modules. I would strongly suggest you give it a try...
>
> Oh deity!  I was hoping not to have to do this.  I've never used modules
> before, since they are (or were) an unnecessary complication, and might
> introduce security risks.  Maybe I'll have to read up on this.

OK - I get that you don't want to, and that you have good reasons, but
I'm suggesting you do it at least for debug. Once you have it working
you can try building them into the kernel. I will report that I've had
trouble over the years doing this, but I've used a lot of strange
cards here so maybe it's old issues that have been fixed.

I know the Alsa developers used to insist we do it with modules. That
was 1999-2000 so likely it's all fixed but I still use modules here.

>
>> 2) Under /proc/asound/card0 (or whatever card you are using if you
>> have more than 1) do you see any pcm directories?
>
>    # ls /proc/asound/card0
>      codec#0  id  oss_mixer  pcm0c  pcm0p pcm1p  pcm2c
>
> , so yes, I can see some pcm directories.
>
>> 3) Post back a little more info?
>
>> cat /proc/asound/cards
>
>   0 [SB             ]: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI SB
>                        HDA ATI SB at 0xfbcf8000 irq 16
>   1 [HDMI           ]: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI HDMI
>                        HDA ATI HDMI at 0xfbffc000 irq 19
>
>
>> aplay -l
>
>   **** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices ****
>   card 0: SB [HDA ATI SB], device 0: ALC1200 Analog [ALC1200 Analog]
>     Subdevices: 1/1
>     Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
>   card 0: SB [HDA ATI SB], device 1: ALC1200 Digital [ALC1200 Digital]
>     Subdevices: 1/1
>     Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
>   card 1: HDMI [HDA ATI HDMI], device 3: ATI HDMI [ATI HDMI]
>     Subdevices: 1/1
>     Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
>
>> aplay -L
>
>   default:CARD=SB
>       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>       Default Audio Device
>   front:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>       Front speakers
>   surround40:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>       4.0 Surround output to Front and Rear speakers
>   surround41:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>       4.1 Surround output to Front, Rear and Subwoofer speakers
>   surround50:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>       5.0 Surround output to Front, Center and Rear speakers
>   surround51:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>       5.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Rear and Subwoofer speakers
>   surround71:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Analog
>       7.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Side, Rear and Woofer speakers
>   iec958:CARD=SB,DEV=0
>       HDA ATI SB, ALC1200 Digital
>       IEC958 (S/PDIF) Digital Audio Output
>   null
>       Discard all samples (playback) or generate zero samples (capture)
>   hdmi:CARD=HDMI
>       HDA ATI HDMI, ATI HDMI
>       HDMI Audio Output
>
>

So it seems that the Intel SB cards - what's SB? Sound Blaster? - is
being chosen as default. That implies to me it's got a reasonable
driver.

It may well be that the card is routing audio to the digital output
when you are trying to get analog.

>> lsmod
>
>   Opening /proc/modules: No such file or directory
>
>> Good luck,
>
> Thanks!
>
>> Mark
>
> --
> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
>
>