[gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Stroller]

UK cloud computing strategy could save up to £3.2bn a year, says  
Cabinet Office.

    The government has unveiled a sweeping strategy to create
    its own internal "cloud computing" system – such as that
    used by Google, Microsoft and Amazon – as part of a radical
    plan that it claims could save up to £3.2bn a year from an
    annual bill of at least £16bn.

    The key part of the new strategy, outlined by the Cabinet
    Office minister Angela Smith, will be the concentration of
    government computing power into a series of about a dozen
    highly secure data centres, each costing up to £250m to
    build, which will replace more than 500 presently used by
    central government, police forces and local authorities.

    The government will also push for "open source" software to
    be used more widely among central and local government's 4m
    desktop computers. That poses an immediate threat to
    Microsoft, whose Windows operating system and Office
    applications suite is at present firmly embedded as the
    standard on PCs in government, such as the NHS, which is one
    of the largest users in Europe.

    But John Suffolk, the government's chief information
    officer, pointed out that cost savings of just £100 per
    machine would total £400m across government. Unlike Windows,
    open source operating systems such as Linux have no
    licensing costs and can be used on as many machines as
    required.

    By 2015, the strategy suggests, 80% of central government
    desktops could be supplied through a "shared utility
    service" – essentially a cloud service resembling Google
    Docs, which lets people create documents online for free.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/jan/27/cloud-computing-government-uk

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Albert Hopkins]

You're right... completely OT...

-a

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Iain Buchanan]

On Thu, 2010-01-28 at 07:41 -0500, Albert Hopkins wrote:
> You're right... completely OT...

not if they use Gentoo...

:p
-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

Any road followed to its end leads precisely nowhere.
Climb the mountain just a little to test it's a mountain.
>From the top of the mountain, you cannot see the mountain.
		-- Bene Gesserit proverb, "Dune"

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Iain Buchanan]

They got it right for being open to OSS, but they got it wrong with the
word "cloud"...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman

-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

BOFH Excuse #189:

SCSI's too wide.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:13:41 +0930, Iain Buchanan wrote:

> They got it right for being open to OSS, but they got it wrong with the
> word "cloud"...
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman

Aren't they talking about a private cloud rather than a public one like
Google's? That would make sense if it were not for our civil service's
inability to keep data secure even when on physical media.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Minds are like parachutes; they only function when fully open. * Sir
James Dewar

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Stroller]

On 29 Jan 2010, at 05:43, Iain Buchanan wrote:

> They got it right for being open to OSS, but they got it wrong with  
> the
> word "cloud"...
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman


Seems like Stallman's objections don't apply because the proposal is  
that they own their own cloud.

I.E. the use of the word "cloud" is just buzzwordology to gain  
approval & acceptance.

One could weigh the pros & cons of using regional data centres for  
this, versus a server room in the basement of the individual  
government buildings in Swansea (DVLA), Bristol (TV licensing) &  
wherever, but I just feel too pessimistic about this today to feel  
it's worth it.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Iain Buchanan]

On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 10:00 +0000, Stroller wrote:
> On 29 Jan 2010, at 05:43, Iain Buchanan wrote:
> 
> > They got it right for being open to OSS, but they got it wrong with  
> > the
> > word "cloud"...
> >
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman
> 
> 
> Seems like Stallman's objections don't apply because the proposal is  
> that they own their own cloud.

I don't think his objections are just related to public vs private.  As
Neil said, there's the security problem to begin with, where one large
government data centre has more data to compromise that a small one...

> I.E. the use of the word "cloud" is just buzzwordology to gain  
> approval & acceptance.

... Another problem is the use of the word "cloud" when already we don't
know exactly what they mean by it (it sounds like a manager buzz word to
me) so they're going to have trouble defining it to themselves, and
other govt departments.

But the principle still remains that they're handing over locally served
(ie maybe a server, maybe a desktop) data to a central "cloud" that will
put its own limits on security, size, etc.  Not to mention the
separation of distance.  No matter how good your network link is, it's
not as good as your SATA interface!  And at the worst of times you may
loose not only your data, but your ability to create new data!

> One could weigh the pros & cons of using regional data centres for  
> this, versus a server room in the basement of the individual  
> government buildings in Swansea (DVLA), Bristol (TV licensing) &  
> wherever, but I just feel too pessimistic about this today to feel  
> it's worth it.

I'm all for data centres, since they can put massive CPU and storage
volumes at the other end of the network link for you to work with
(backups, web servers, etc) but it becomes very problematic when you use
a web browser to write an office document.

> Stroller.

-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

I didn't like the play, but I saw it under adverse conditions.  The curtain
was up.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Mick]

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On Friday 29 January 2010 14:09:37 Iain Buchanan wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 10:00 +0000, Stroller wrote:
> > On 29 Jan 2010, at 05:43, Iain Buchanan wrote:
> > > They got it right for being open to OSS, but they got it wrong with
> > > the
> > > word "cloud"...
> > >
> > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richar
> > >d.stallman
> >
> > Seems like Stallman's objections don't apply because the proposal is
> > that they own their own cloud.
> 
> I don't think his objections are just related to public vs private.  As
> Neil said, there's the security problem to begin with, where one large
> government data centre has more data to compromise that a small one...
> 
> > I.E. the use of the word "cloud" is just buzzwordology to gain
> > approval & acceptance.
> 
> ... Another problem is the use of the word "cloud" when already we don't
> know exactly what they mean by it (it sounds like a manager buzz word to
> me) so they're going to have trouble defining it to themselves, and
> other govt departments.
> 
> But the principle still remains that they're handing over locally served
> (ie maybe a server, maybe a desktop) data to a central "cloud" that will
> put its own limits on security, size, etc.  Not to mention the
> separation of distance.  No matter how good your network link is, it's
> not as good as your SATA interface!  And at the worst of times you may
> loose not only your data, but your ability to create new data!
> 
> > One could weigh the pros & cons of using regional data centres for
> > this, versus a server room in the basement of the individual
> > government buildings in Swansea (DVLA), Bristol (TV licensing) &
> > wherever, but I just feel too pessimistic about this today to feel
> > it's worth it.
> 
> I'm all for data centres, since they can put massive CPU and storage
> volumes at the other end of the network link for you to work with
> (backups, web servers, etc) but it becomes very problematic when you use
> a web browser to write an office document.

I think they are thinking along the lines of Citrix XenApps and thin client 
(e.g. HP running Neoware-RHL) on the desktops.  This is what is being tried 
out currently in a number of offices/buildings.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 23:39:37 +0930, Iain Buchanan wrote:

> I don't think his objections are just related to public vs private.  As
> Neil said, there's the security problem to begin with, where one large
> government data centre has more data to compromise that a small one...

On the other hand, centralised storage means you shouldn't get idiots
posting out CDs with millions of people's bank account details. There
again, if the admins are lax enough to allow people to do this,
and people are daft enough to do it, they would have real trouble
understanding the concept of central storage :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

First Law of Laboratory Work:
Hot glass looks exactly the same as cold glass.

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 29 January 2010 23:59:36 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 23:39:37 +0930, Iain Buchanan wrote:
> > I don't think his objections are just related to public vs private.  As
> > Neil said, there's the security problem to begin with, where one large
> > government data centre has more data to compromise that a small one...
> 
> On the other hand, centralised storage means you shouldn't get idiots
> posting out CDs with millions of people's bank account details. There
> again, if the admins are lax enough to allow people to do this,
> and people are daft enough to do it, they would have real trouble
> understanding the concept of central storage :(
> 

You seem to grossly under-estimate the ability of the average idiot.


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:21:33 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > On the other hand, centralised storage means you shouldn't get idiots
> > posting out CDs with millions of people's bank account details. There
> > again, if the admins are lax enough to allow people to do this,
> > and people are daft enough to do it, they would have real trouble
> > understanding the concept of central storage :(
> >   
> 
> You seem to grossly under-estimate the ability of the average idiot.

We don't have average idiots in /our/ civil service!


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Math and alcohol don't mix. Don't drink and derive.

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Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Iain Buchanan]

On Sat, 2010-01-30 at 00:06 +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:21:33 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > You seem to grossly under-estimate the ability of the average idiot.
> 
> We don't have average idiots in /our/ civil service!

"What kind of idiots do you have working here?"
"The finest in New York!"

(gratuitous movie quote...)
-- 
Iain Buchanan <iaindb at netspace dot net dot au>

When you speak to others for their own good it's advice;
when they speak to you for your own good it's interference.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Stroller]

On 30 Jan 2010, at 00:06, Neil Bothwick wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:21:33 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
>>> On the other hand, centralised storage means you shouldn't get  
>>> idiots
>>> posting out CDs with millions of people's bank account details.  
>>> There
>>> again, if the admins are lax enough to allow people to do this,
>>> and people are daft enough to do it, they would have real trouble
>>> understanding the concept of central storage :(
>>>
>>
>> You seem to grossly under-estimate the ability of the average idiot.
>
> We don't have average idiots in /our/ civil service!

No, we hire them as consultants.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 30 January 2010 02:06:42 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:21:33 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > On the other hand, centralised storage means you shouldn't get idiots
> > > posting out CDs with millions of people's bank account details. There
> > > again, if the admins are lax enough to allow people to do this,
> > > and people are daft enough to do it, they would have real trouble
> > > understanding the concept of central storage :(
> >
> > You seem to grossly under-estimate the ability of the average idiot.
> 
> We don't have average idiots in /our/ civil service!
> 

What? You actively seek out the *special* idiots then?

[Or this is a Monty Python in-joke and I'm not getting it]

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] OT: I want to get excited, but I just *know* they're going to mess it up...

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:09:09 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> > We don't have average idiots in /our/ civil service!
> >   
> 
> What? You actively seek out the *special* idiots then?

Not personally, although I do seem to attract them :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Idaho - It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there.

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