[gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Helmut Jarausch]

Hi,

emerge @preserved-rebuild fails to do any updating since a single
(needed) package has been masked.
But I do need to keep kdelibs:3.5 which pulls in kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi:3.5
which has been masked.

Is it possible to tell emerge to do the other updates which don't need
this?

Dropping kde:3.5 too early is one of the biggest disappointsment of
GenToo! For someone who needs some package depending on it, it's really
hard. (I do need kexi)

Many thanks for some help,
Helmut.

-- 
Helmut Jarausch

Lehrstuhl fuer Numerische Mathematik
RWTH - Aachen University
D 52056 Aachen, Germany

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Alex Schuster]

Helmut Jarausch writes:

> emerge @preserved-rebuild fails to do any updating since a single
> (needed) package has been masked.
> But I do need to keep kdelibs:3.5 which pulls in
>  kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi:3.5 which has been masked.
> 
> Is it possible to tell emerge to do the other updates which don't need
> this?
> 
> Dropping kde:3.5 too early is one of the biggest disappointsment of
> GenToo! For someone who needs some package depending on it, it's really
> hard. (I do need kexi)

Well, it's still all there, not in the official Gentoo portage tree, but 
in the kde-sunset overlay. Get it, unmask all the KDE 3.5 stuff, and all 
should be fine again. See this guide for details:

http://www.linuxized.com/2009/11/how-to-keep-your-kde-3-5-after-its-
removed-gentoos-tree-using-the-kde-sunset-overlay/

weird ~ # eix kdnssd-avahi
* kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi
     Available versions:  (3.5)  {M}0.1.2[1] {M}0.1.2-r1 {M}0.1.2-r1[1]
        {arts debug elibc_FreeBSD xinerama}
     Homepage:            http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-
index.php?page=Zeroconf+in+KDE
     Description:         DNS Service Discovery kioslave using Avahi 
(rather than mDNSResponder)

[1] "kde-sunset" /usr/local/portage/layman/kde-sunset
weird ~ # emerge -ptv kdnssd-avahi

These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N    ] kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi-0.1.2-r1  USE="(-arts) -debug -
xinerama" 739 kB [1]
[ebuild  N    ]  net-dns/avahi-0.6.24-r2  USE="dbus gdbm gtk ipv6 python 
qt4 -autoipd -bookmarks -doc -howl-compat -mdnsresponder-compat -mono -qt3 
-test" 1,090 kB [1]
[ebuild  N    ]   dev-libs/libdaemon-0.13-r1  USE="-doc -examples" 360 kB 
[0]

Total: 3 packages (3 new), Size of downloads: 2,188 kB
Portage tree and overlays:
 [0] /usr/portage/tree
 [1] /usr/local/portage/layman/kde-sunset

	Wonko

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:35:46 +0100 (CET), Helmut Jarausch wrote:

> But I do need to keep kdelibs:3.5 which pulls in
> kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi:3.5 which has been masked.

Unmask it.

> Dropping kde:3.5 too early is one of the biggest disappointsment of
> GenToo! For someone who needs some package depending on it, it's really
> hard. (I do need kexi)

It's not been totally dropped, but moved out of the main portage tree to
the kde-sunset overlay. Add that overlay and your problem will disappear.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If it was easy, the hardware people would take care of it.

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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Helmut Jarausch wrote:
> Hi,
>
> emerge @preserved-rebuild fails to do any updating since a single
> (needed) package has been masked.
> But I do need to keep kdelibs:3.5 which pulls in kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi:3.5
> which has been masked.
>
> Is it possible to tell emerge to do the other updates which don't need
> this?
>
> Dropping kde:3.5 too early is one of the biggest disappointsment of
> GenToo! For someone who needs some package depending on it, it's really
> hard. (I do need kexi)
>
> Many thanks for some help,
> Helmut.
>
>   

Gentoo wasn't at fault here.  KDE was the one that dropped the ball.  
Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Stroller]

On 5 Jan 2010, at 23:33, Dale wrote:
> ...
> Gentoo wasn't at fault here.  KDE was the one that dropped the  
> ball.  Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho.
> Dale

Between KDE & Gentoo, aren't most contributors volunteers? In  
volunteer development it's normal & necessary to focus on the features  
that one needs most. I can really understand KDE's position that  
downstream distros - Red Hat & Canonical both have paid developers -  
can continue maintenance on a codebase that is no longer receiving  
their primary attention.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Stroller wrote:
>
> On 5 Jan 2010, at 23:33, Dale wrote:
>> ...
>> Gentoo wasn't at fault here.  KDE was the one that dropped the ball.  
>> Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho.
>> Dale
>
> Between KDE & Gentoo, aren't most contributors volunteers? In 
> volunteer development it's normal & necessary to focus on the features 
> that one needs most. I can really understand KDE's position that 
> downstream distros - Red Hat & Canonical both have paid developers - 
> can continue maintenance on a codebase that is no longer receiving 
> their primary attention.
>
> Stroller.
>

So, KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5?  If KDE is/was maintaining KDE 3.5 then 
Gentoo would still have it in the tree.  If KDE is not supporting KDE 
3.5 then Gentoo has to drop it, as things break and develop security 
issues.  Again, this is not Gentoo's fault for not developing KDE 3.5, 
it is KDE that dropped it.  What Redhat does most likely won't affect 
what Gentoo does.  I don't use Redhat but I do use Gentoo. 

I'm also pretty sure that Gentoo doesn't do development work on Gnome, 
Fluxbox, Apache, MySql and other packages.  They just make ebuilds and 
put them in the tree so people can use them. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Show]

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>I'm also pretty sure that Gentoo doesn't do development work on Gnome,
Fluxbox, Apache, >MySql and other packages.  They just make ebuilds and put
them in the tree so people can use >them.

if there is something unconvenient with used on the software ,gentoo will
talk to the authors still , right ? like ibus last time  (i just heard it
from my friend)
^^

2010/1/6 Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com>

> Stroller wrote:
>
>>
>> On 5 Jan 2010, at 23:33, Dale wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> Gentoo wasn't at fault here.  KDE was the one that dropped the ball.
>>>  Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho.
>>> Dale
>>>
>>
>> Between KDE & Gentoo, aren't most contributors volunteers? In volunteer
>> development it's normal & necessary to focus on the features that one needs
>> most. I can really understand KDE's position that downstream distros - Red
>> Hat & Canonical both have paid developers - can continue maintenance on a
>> codebase that is no longer receiving their primary attention.
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
>>
> So, KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5?  If KDE is/was maintaining KDE 3.5 then
> Gentoo would still have it in the tree.  If KDE is not supporting KDE 3.5
> then Gentoo has to drop it, as things break and develop security issues.
>  Again, this is not Gentoo's fault for not developing KDE 3.5, it is KDE
> that dropped it.  What Redhat does most likely won't affect what Gentoo
> does.  I don't use Redhat but I do use Gentoo.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)  :-)
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Stroller]

On 6 Jan 2010, at 18:57, Dale wrote:
> Stroller wrote:
>> On 5 Jan 2010, at 23:33, Dale wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Gentoo wasn't at fault here.  KDE was the one that dropped the  
>>> ball.  Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho.
>>
>> Between KDE & Gentoo, aren't most contributors volunteers? In  
>> volunteer development it's normal & necessary to focus on the  
>> features that one needs most. I can really understand KDE's  
>> position that downstream distros - Red Hat & Canonical both have  
>> paid developers - can continue maintenance on a codebase that is no  
>> longer receiving their primary attention.
>
> So, KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5?  If KDE is/was maintaining KDE 3.5  
> then Gentoo would still have it in the tree.  If KDE is not  
> supporting KDE 3.5 then Gentoo has to drop it, as things break and  
> develop security issues.  Again, this is not Gentoo's fault for not  
> developing KDE 3.5, it is KDE that dropped it.  What Redhat does  
> most likely won't affect what Gentoo does.  I don't use Redhat but I  
> do use Gentoo.

Where did I say KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5?

If you want to find "fault", Dale, it's your fault for using free  
software you're not prepared to maintain. The source code is there -  
fix any bugs you have problems with.

> I'm also pretty sure that Gentoo doesn't do development work on  
> Gnome, Fluxbox, Apache, MySql and other packages.  They just make  
> ebuilds and put them in the tree so people can use them.

I'm pretty sure you don't do development work on X, Y or Z, either.

I'm all for attributing blame when devs make decisions I disagree  
with, but this is simply a matter of limited resources.

I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan  
[1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan -  
i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they  
have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4.

Sorry if you don't like it - this wasn't my decision, I'm just trying  
to explain. Either you or Alan are going to be disappointed that your  
preferred version doesn't get the attention you would like it to.  
Sorry it had to be you.

Stroller.



[1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist. 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Alan McKinnon]

On Thursday 07 January 2010 21:19:27 Stroller wrote:
> I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan  
> [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan -  
> i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they  
> have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4.

[snip]

> [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist. 

Ahem <cough><cough>

I *think*, but not sure, that I feel offended by being mythicalisized[2]

[2] Some hypothetical word that truly does not exist.

Lucky for us, the Red hats and SuSEs of this world will maintain at least 
critical security flaws in KDE-3.5 that Gentoo users can import into kde-
sunset: those distros shipped KDE-3.5 and are still actively supported

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Thursday 07 January 2010 21:19:27 Stroller wrote:
>   
>> I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan  
>> [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan -  
>> i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they  
>> have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4.
>>     
>
> [snip]
>
>   
>> [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist. 
>>     
>
> Ahem <cough><cough>
>
> I *think*, but not sure, that I feel offended by being mythicalisized[2]
>
> [2] Some hypothetical word that truly does not exist.
>
> Lucky for us, the Red hats and SuSEs of this world will maintain at least 
> critical security flaws in KDE-3.5 that Gentoo users can import into kde-
> sunset: those distros shipped KDE-3.5 and are still actively supported
>
>   

Should we also assume that Redhat and SuSE is doing that support, not 
KDE who is the one that dropped KDE 3.5 ??

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 08 January 2010 00:25:03 Dale wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On Thursday 07 January 2010 21:19:27 Stroller wrote:
> >> I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan
> >> [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan -
> >> i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they
> >> have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >> [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist.
> >
> > Ahem <cough><cough>
> >
> > I *think*, but not sure, that I feel offended by being mythicalisized[2]
> >
> > [2] Some hypothetical word that truly does not exist.
> >
> > Lucky for us, the Red hats and SuSEs of this world will maintain at least
> > critical security flaws in KDE-3.5 that Gentoo users can import into kde-
> > sunset: those distros shipped KDE-3.5 and are still actively supported
> 
> Should we also assume that Redhat and SuSE is doing that support, not
> KDE who is the one that dropped KDE 3.5 ??


Yes, that's reasonable. RH shipped KDE-3.5 with fully supported versions of 
RHEL, and those versions are still current. So just like RH backport useful 
kernel code into their shipped versions, we can expect RH to at least deal 
with critical security bugs. They likely will not add new features to KDE-3.5 
though.

There's no inside info here, I'm just stating the way these things usually 
work out there in the marketplace

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Friday 08 January 2010 00:25:03 Dale wrote:
>   
>> Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>     
>>> On Thursday 07 January 2010 21:19:27 Stroller wrote:
>>>       
>>>> I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan
>>>> [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan -
>>>> i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they
>>>> have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4.
>>>>         
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>       
>>>> [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist.
>>>>         
>>> Ahem <cough><cough>
>>>
>>> I *think*, but not sure, that I feel offended by being mythicalisized[2]
>>>
>>> [2] Some hypothetical word that truly does not exist.
>>>
>>> Lucky for us, the Red hats and SuSEs of this world will maintain at least
>>> critical security flaws in KDE-3.5 that Gentoo users can import into kde-
>>> sunset: those distros shipped KDE-3.5 and are still actively supported
>>>       
>> Should we also assume that Redhat and SuSE is doing that support, not
>> KDE who is the one that dropped KDE 3.5 ??
>>     
>
>
> Yes, that's reasonable. RH shipped KDE-3.5 with fully supported versions of 
> RHEL, and those versions are still current. So just like RH backport useful 
> kernel code into their shipped versions, we can expect RH to at least deal 
> with critical security bugs. They likely will not add new features to KDE-3.5 
> though.
>
> There's no inside info here, I'm just stating the way these things usually 
> work out there in the marketplace
>
>   

But KDE still dropped the support tho?  That was my point.  It wasn't 
Redhat, Gentoo, SuSe or some other distro or even me that dropped it, it 
was KDE that dropped it.

Now to this question, will what Redhat is doing ever make it to the 
kde-sunset overlay?  Or will that be so far out that KDE 4 will finally 
be ready by that time?

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 08 January 2010 10:06:27 Dale wrote:
> > Yes, that's reasonable. RH shipped KDE-3.5 with fully supported versions
> > of  RHEL, and those versions are still current. So just like RH backport
> > useful kernel code into their shipped versions, we can expect RH to at
> > least deal with critical security bugs. They likely will not add new
> > features to KDE-3.5 though.
> >
> > There's no inside info here, I'm just stating the way these things
> > usually  work out there in the marketplace
> >
> >   
> 
> But KDE still dropped the support tho?  That was my point.  It wasn't 
> Redhat, Gentoo, SuSe or some other distro or even me that dropped it, it 
> was KDE that dropped it.

Yes, upstream stopped maintaining KDE. Which leaves RH without an upstream 
maintainer, so RH will likely step in to fill the breach. They made promises 
to their customers and they do tend to keep their promises.
 
> Now to this question, will what Redhat is doing ever make it to the 
> kde-sunset overlay?  Or will that be so far out that KDE 4 will finally 
> be ready by that time?

That's totally up to whoever steps up to the plate and decides to do some 
maintenance on kde-sunset. RH publishes their patches per the GPL so if the 
kde-sunset maintainer decides to apply the patches then you will benefit. If 
the kde-sunset maintainer does not apply the patches, or if there is no kde-
sunset maintainer, then you will not benefit.

The kde-sunset maintainer could even be you.

None of this has any definite predictions surrounding it. It all totally 
depends on someone having the balls to maintain kde-sunset and actually doing 
so. Maybe KDE-3.5 users get lucky and someone decides to fork the project and 
breathe new life into it - that could even be you. The only actual reason you 
have not forked and maintain KDE-3.5 is because you have not decided to do so.

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Stroller]

On 8 Jan 2010, at 08:23, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> ...
> The kde-sunset maintainer could even be you.

I had my first patch accepted to an upstream project this week. It was  
only about 70 lines of Perl (and some of those were basically just  
refactoring what the author had already written into a different  
function, so that my new code could call it, too), but not only was it  
*extremely* gratifying to be "accepted upstream", it also showed me  
that the barrier to contributing to OSS is really very low.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Alan McKinnon]

On Friday 08 January 2010 12:34:39 Stroller wrote:
> On 8 Jan 2010, at 08:23, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > ...
> > The kde-sunset maintainer could even be you.
> 
> I had my first patch accepted to an upstream project this week. It was
> only about 70 lines of Perl (and some of those were basically just
> refactoring what the author had already written into a different
> function, so that my new code could call it, too), but not only was it
> *extremely* gratifying to be "accepted upstream", it also showed me
> that the barrier to contributing to OSS is really very low.

Most people have never had code accepted upstream simply because they never 
tried.

When they do try for the first time, they often have a positive experience, 
like you did. There are exceptions of course, like the mainline kernel (those 
dudes are strict) and nagios (that dude is an ass) but most maintainers are 
grateful when users want to contribute

-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Stroller]

On 8 Jan 2010, at 08:06, Dale wrote:
> ...
> But KDE still dropped the support tho?  That was my point.  It  
> wasn't Redhat, Gentoo, SuSe or some other distro or even me that  
> dropped it, it was KDE that dropped it.

62% of KDE's developers are unpaid volunteers. [1]

"We program for the sheer joy and fun that comes out of putting out  
such an awesome product. This has nothing to do with market share,  
mind share, corporate attention, or any other outside influence." [2]

Stroller.




[1] https://fossbazaar.org/?q=content/differences-between-paid-and-volunteer-foss-contributors
[2] http://www.kde.org/announcements/gfresponse.php

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Stroller wrote:
>
> On 8 Jan 2010, at 08:06, Dale wrote:
>> ...
>> But KDE still dropped the support tho?  That was my point.  It wasn't 
>> Redhat, Gentoo, SuSe or some other distro or even me that dropped it, 
>> it was KDE that dropped it.
>
> 62% of KDE's developers are unpaid volunteers. [1]
>
> "We program for the sheer joy and fun that comes out of putting out 
> such an awesome product. This has nothing to do with market share, 
> mind share, corporate attention, or any other outside influence." [2]
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>
>
> [1] 
> https://fossbazaar.org/?q=content/differences-between-paid-and-volunteer-foss-contributors 
>
> [2] http://www.kde.org/announcements/gfresponse.php
>
>

Honestly, I don't care if it is 100% volunteers.  They dropped the 
support and a LOT of people, including me, are at the very least not 
happy about it.  Some were pissed and switched to something else, I 
heard some went to Fluxbox because it was quick to install and light.  
Some are trying to "get by" with KDE 4.  Some like me are trying to 
continue using KDE 3 until KDE 4 is able to step up to the plate.

Isn't Gentoo based on all volunteers?  You think Gentoo would just drop 
portage like KDE dropped KDE 3?  From my understanding, even some really 
old versions of portage will still work.  I could test this theory by 
using my old Gentoo 1.4 CD on a test install. 

So, as I have been saying all along, repeatedly, Gentoo did not drop the 
ball here, KDE did.  If KDE didn't drop the ball then why is Redhat 
having to step up and do the job on the KDE developers?

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Alan McKinnon]

On Saturday 09 January 2010 00:04:28 Dale wrote:
> Honestly, I don't care if it is 100% volunteers.  They dropped the 
> support and a LOT of people, including me, are at the very least not 
> happy about it.
> 

Dale, FFS, please stop whinging about KDE-3

This is getting like an old record stuck in a groove...


-- 
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Saturday 09 January 2010 00:04:28 Dale wrote:
>   
>> Honestly, I don't care if it is 100% volunteers.  They dropped the 
>> support and a LOT of people, including me, are at the very least not 
>> happy about it.
>>
>>     
>
> Dale, FFS, please stop whinging about KDE-3
>
> This is getting like an old record stuck in a groove...
>
>   

Well, I didn't like being told that it was my fault that support was 
dropped.  I didn't even know it was dropped until it was already done.  
I didn't realize that this would have to be replied to this many times 
for the facts to be understood.

Apologies on my end at least.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:04:28 -0600, Dale wrote:

> So, as I have been saying all along, repeatedly, Gentoo did not drop
> the ball here, KDE did.

It's  their ball, they can do whatever they like with it. It doesn't
matter how much you complain, if unpaid, volunteer developers want to
work on the new stuff, that is their choice, and an unsurprising one.

> If KDE didn't drop the ball then why is Redhat 
> having to step up and do the job on the KDE developers?

They aren't, they are doing the job they were paid to do by their
customers. If you want continued, guaranteed support for KDE3, you have
two choices: do it yourself or buy a copy of RHEL with a support
contract.

Gentoo and KDE have given you far more than you paid for, ungrateful
whining only makes you look bad. 


-- 
Neil Bothwick

During a raid on a local chemist's shop, 2000 Viagra tablets were stolen
Police are looking for hardened criminals!

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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:04:28 -0600, Dale wrote:
>
>   
>> So, as I have been saying all along, repeatedly, Gentoo did not drop
>> the ball here, KDE did.
>>     
>
> It's  their ball, they can do whatever they like with it. It doesn't
> matter how much you complain, if unpaid, volunteer developers want to
> work on the new stuff, that is their choice, and an unsurprising one.
>   

Yep, it is their ball.  It doesn't mean that I or anyone else has to 
like it tho.

>   
>> If KDE didn't drop the ball then why is Redhat 
>> having to step up and do the job on the KDE developers?
>>     
>
> They aren't, they are doing the job they were paid to do by their
> customers. If you want continued, guaranteed support for KDE3, you have
> two choices: do it yourself or buy a copy of RHEL with a support
> contract.
>
> Gentoo and KDE have given you far more than you paid for, ungrateful
> whining only makes you look bad. 
>
>   

Then that would be the decision Redhat made after KDE dropped the ball?  
Again, someone picking up after KDE and doing what they could have 
done.  I wonder if Redhat likes having to do that?  Wouldn't they like 
their PAID people to be doing something else besides picking up after KDE?

Looks like I am still at fault for something I have no control 
whatsoever over.  Maybe we should revive hal while we are at it.  There 
must be a lot of people to blame there since there were so many 
complaining about it.  That wasn't just me either.  By the way, I 
dropped hal.  Maybe KDE will be next? 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:16:05 -0600, Dale wrote:

> >> So, as I have been saying all along, repeatedly, Gentoo did not drop
> >> the ball here, KDE did.
> >>     
> >
> > It's  their ball, they can do whatever they like with it. It doesn't
> > matter how much you complain, if unpaid, volunteer developers want to
> > work on the new stuff, that is their choice, and an unsurprising one.
> >   
> 
> Yep, it is their ball.  It doesn't mean that I or anyone else has to 
> like it tho.

No, but it doesn't mean you should keep complaining about it. It's their
project and their choice. If you don't like it, ask for your money back.

> >> If KDE didn't drop the ball then why is Redhat 
> >> having to step up and do the job on the KDE developers?
> >>     
> >
> > They aren't, they are doing the job they were paid to do by their
> > customers. If you want continued, guaranteed support for KDE3, you
> > have two choices: do it yourself or buy a copy of RHEL with a support
> > contract.

> Then that would be the decision Redhat made after KDE dropped the
> ball?

No, it was the decision Red Hat made before they sold distros with X year
support contracts, to provide a guaranteed level of support to their
customers. Someone mentioned that 62% of KDE devs are unpaid, who do you
think pays the other 38%.

> Again, someone picking up after KDE and doing what they could
> have done.  I wonder if Redhat likes having to do that?  Wouldn't they
> like their PAID people to be doing something else besides picking up
> after KDE?

They want their paid people to do their job of supporting their
customers. KDE are also supporting their customers, which do not include
you (or me).

> By the way, I dropped hal.  Maybe KDE will be next? 

Fine, that's your choice, just as it was KDE's choice to maximise the
resources devoted to development of KDE4 by not diverting devs' time to
KDE3. Maybe that's why KDE 4.4 is so much nicer to use than 4.3?


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Why doesn't onomatopoeia sound like what it means?

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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:16:05 -0600, Dale wrote:
>
>   
>>>> So, as I have been saying all along, repeatedly, Gentoo did not drop
>>>> the ball here, KDE did.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> It's  their ball, they can do whatever they like with it. It doesn't
>>> matter how much you complain, if unpaid, volunteer developers want to
>>> work on the new stuff, that is their choice, and an unsurprising one.
>>>   
>>>       
>> Yep, it is their ball.  It doesn't mean that I or anyone else has to 
>> like it tho.
>>     
>
> No, but it doesn't mean you should keep complaining about it. It's their
> project and their choice. If you don't like it, ask for your money back.
>   

Actually, I only told the OP, many many replies ago, that it was not 
Gentoo's fault that KDE was dropped.  Then for some crazy reason it 
became my fault.  It's not my fault at all.  Any one who thinks so is 
wrong.  I had NO part in the decision to drop KDE 3 support by KDE.

>   
>>>> If KDE didn't drop the ball then why is Redhat 
>>>> having to step up and do the job on the KDE developers?
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> They aren't, they are doing the job they were paid to do by their
>>> customers. If you want continued, guaranteed support for KDE3, you
>>> have two choices: do it yourself or buy a copy of RHEL with a support
>>> contract.
>>>       
>
>   
>> Then that would be the decision Redhat made after KDE dropped the
>> ball?
>>     
>
> No, it was the decision Red Hat made before they sold distros with X year
> support contracts, to provide a guaranteed level of support to their
> customers. Someone mentioned that 62% of KDE devs are unpaid, who do you
> think pays the other 38%.
>   

So they did make the decision to continue support for KDE 3.  OK.  So 
what?  I wish them the best of luck.  KDE still stopped the support.  
Anything else you say will not change that fact.  Again, Redhat is only 
picking it up because KDE isn't doing it.  That's what you just said.  
If KDE was still supporting and developing KDE 3 then Redhat wouldn't 
have to do what KDE used to do.

>   
>> Again, someone picking up after KDE and doing what they could
>> have done.  I wonder if Redhat likes having to do that?  Wouldn't they
>> like their PAID people to be doing something else besides picking up
>> after KDE?
>>     
>
> They want their paid people to do their job of supporting their
> customers. KDE are also supporting their customers, which do not include
> you (or me).
>   

It sure doesn't.  I don't use Redhat. Honestly, I don't care what Redhat 
decides to support or not to support.  It doesn't seem to affect me or 
Gentoo one little bit.

>   
>> By the way, I dropped hal.  Maybe KDE will be next? 
>>     
>
> Fine, that's your choice, just as it was KDE's choice to maximise the
> resources devoted to development of KDE4 by not diverting devs' time to
> KDE3. Maybe that's why KDE 4.4 is so much nicer to use than 4.3?
>
>   

Glad to hear they are working on KDE 4.4.  Maybe it will work good 
enough for me to use one day soon.  It looks promising to me.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 08:39:58 -0600, Dale wrote:

> > No, it was the decision Red Hat made before they sold distros with X
> > year support contracts, to provide a guaranteed level of support to
> > their customers. Someone mentioned that 62% of KDE devs are unpaid,
> > who do you think pays the other 38%.
> >     
> 
> So they did make the decision to continue support for KDE 3.  OK.  So 
> what?  I wish them the best of luck.  KDE still stopped the support.  
> Anything else you say will not change that fact.  Again, Redhat is only 
> picking it up because KDE isn't doing it.  That's what you just said. 

It's not what I said. Red Hat commit to support all software they supply,
irrespective of upstream decisions. It is reasonable to assume that the
distros that employ and pay KDE developers are happy with the way things
are going, otherwise they would discontinue their support.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

What did the first man to discover you can get milk from cows think he
was doing? - anon.

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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 08:39:58 -0600, Dale wrote:
>
>   
>>> No, it was the decision Red Hat made before they sold distros with X
>>> year support contracts, to provide a guaranteed level of support to
>>> their customers. Someone mentioned that 62% of KDE devs are unpaid,
>>> who do you think pays the other 38%.
>>>     
>>>       
>> So they did make the decision to continue support for KDE 3.  OK.  So 
>> what?  I wish them the best of luck.  KDE still stopped the support.  
>> Anything else you say will not change that fact.  Again, Redhat is only 
>> picking it up because KDE isn't doing it.  That's what you just said. 
>>     
>
> It's not what I said. Red Hat commit to support all software they supply,
> irrespective of upstream decisions. It is reasonable to assume that the
> distros that employ and pay KDE developers are happy with the way things
> are going, otherwise they would discontinue their support.
>
>   

Can you accept the fact that KDE dropped support for KDE 3?  Why is this 
so hard for you to accept?  That is all that I said and this is enough.  
KDE DROPPED SUPPORT.  End of story.  I don't' care what Redhat or any 
other distro did.  KDE dropped the ball.  Paid or not, they dropped 
support for KDE 3.

Jeez!

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 16:58:31 -0600, Dale wrote:

> Can you accept the fact that KDE dropped support for KDE 3?

Of course, they have stated so themselves.

> KDE dropped the ball.

This is the statement I disagreed with. Dropping support is a fact, based
on a sound decision. This statement is you saying they were wrong, purely
because their decision does not suit you. KDE 4 is workable, it's not as
mature as 3.5 and I only switched a few months ago, but it is getting
there and better in many respects. Diverting resources to work on an
obsolete product would only slow the development of KDE 4. KDE 3 still
works so what's the problem?

It's not like they switched off KDE 3, they just stopped adding new
features, which makes perfect sense to me. There are people in a position
to fix and security issues that may arise, but that doesn't have to be
KDE themselves, and wasn't always them in a past.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.

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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 16:58:31 -0600, Dale wrote:
>
>   
>> Can you accept the fact that KDE dropped support for KDE 3?
>>     
>
> Of course, they have stated so themselves.
>
>   
>> KDE dropped the ball.
>>     
>
> This is the statement I disagreed with. Dropping support is a fact, based
> on a sound decision. This statement is you saying they were wrong, purely
> because their decision does not suit you. KDE 4 is workable, it's not as
> mature as 3.5 and I only switched a few months ago, but it is getting
> there and better in many respects. Diverting resources to work on an
> obsolete product would only slow the development of KDE 4. KDE 3 still
> works so what's the problem?
>
> It's not like they switched off KDE 3, they just stopped adding new
> features, which makes perfect sense to me. There are people in a position
> to fix and security issues that may arise, but that doesn't have to be
> KDE themselves, and wasn't always them in a past.
>
>   

You say they dropped support.  I call it dropping the ball.  Same thing.

As bad as I hate M$, one thing I can say, they have never to my 
knowledge dropped support for a OS unless and until the replacement is 
fully functional and stable, as finctional and stable as windoze can get 
anyway.  At least they don't leave people with a unsupported OS while 
they spend a year or two getting the new one ironed out.  I don't think 
KDE will take that long but winders does.  Most reasonable people agree 
that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more months. 

You say KDE 4 is workable.  For me, it isn't.  If I log into KDE 4, I 
have to switch back to KDE 3 to do some of my normal day to day things.  
Some of the things I do can't be done in KDE 4 yet.  They will be when 
they get the time to fix it but right now it doesn't work, for me or 
others on the KDE mailing list.  The problems I ran into have already 
been discussed on the KDE mailing list and they say I just have to wait 
until it gets fixed, updated or just plain coded in. 

So, KDE 3 is still not being supported even after all this.  Nothing has 
changed.  Who would have thunk it?

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[pk]

Dale wrote:

> You say they dropped support.  I call it dropping the ball.  Same thing.

Sorry for "butting in"...

As I understand it, KDE development is mostly driven by volunteers (like
most OSS projects). Yes, some are probably paid/employed by interested
parties but this doesn't really change the fact that there are limited
resources that might be better to concentrate on the latest (and
"greatest"). Not trying to be flame-baiting but, as with all OSS
projects, if you don't like something, you can sharpen your hacking
skills and contribute/fork/whatever to get what you want. Besides,
comparing KDE with Microsoft is a bit unfair, don't you think? MS
products is payed and supported through the sale of their software. KDE
is free, unless you pay for support... Perhaps it's time to look around
for something that suits you better? For me I like simplicity/minimalism
and I've settled for xfce4.

For the record I used to run K3b with a minimal kde-support environment
(kdelibs, qt etc.), still under xfce4 of course, but I stopped
using/removed it when KDE4 was enforced. Not that I have anything
against qt4/KDE4 but it mandated installation of "accessibility"
libs/utilities + "the kitchen sink" (why that would be required is
beyond me; I thought accessibility was the exception and not the norm)...

Again, just my opinion, not meaning to upset you, Dale, or anyone else...

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

pk wrote:
> Dale wrote:
>
>   
>> You say they dropped support.  I call it dropping the ball.  Same thing.
>>     
>
> Sorry for "butting in"...
>
> As I understand it, KDE development is mostly driven by volunteers (like
> most OSS projects). Yes, some are probably paid/employed by interested
> parties but this doesn't really change the fact that there are limited
> resources that might be better to concentrate on the latest (and
> "greatest"). Not trying to be flame-baiting but, as with all OSS
> projects, if you don't like something, you can sharpen your hacking
> skills and contribute/fork/whatever to get what you want. Besides,
> comparing KDE with Microsoft is a bit unfair, don't you think? MS
> products is payed and supported through the sale of their software. KDE
> is free, unless you pay for support... Perhaps it's time to look around
> for something that suits you better? For me I like simplicity/minimalism
> and I've settled for xfce4.
>
> For the record I used to run K3b with a minimal kde-support environment
> (kdelibs, qt etc.), still under xfce4 of course, but I stopped
> using/removed it when KDE4 was enforced. Not that I have anything
> against qt4/KDE4 but it mandated installation of "accessibility"
> libs/utilities + "the kitchen sink" (why that would be required is
> beyond me; I thought accessibility was the exception and not the norm)...
>
> Again, just my opinion, not meaning to upset you, Dale, or anyone else...
>
> Best regards
>
> Peter K
>   

And this is the same thing that has already been said before.  Volunteer 
or paid, they dropped the ball. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 06:20:34 -0600, Dale wrote:

> You say they dropped support.  I call it dropping the ball.  Same thing.

No it's not. One is a bald statement of fact, the other contains a
judgement by using negative terminology.

> As bad as I hate M$, one thing I can say, they have never to my 
> knowledge dropped support for a OS unless and until the replacement is 
> fully functional and stable, as finctional and stable as windoze can
> get anyway.  At least they don't leave people with a unsupported OS
> while they spend a year or two getting the new one ironed out.  I don't
> think KDE will take that long but winders does.

You're comparing apples and oranges. With a paid OS, you are mainly
paying for support and security updates, which you still get with a paid
Linux distro.

> Most reasonable people
> agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more
> months.

Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't define
reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should still be developed :)

> So, KDE 3 is still not being supported even after all this.  Nothing
> has changed.  Who would have thunk it?

Well, very little has changed. Most importantly, KDE 3.5 still works as
well as it ever did. It was never gong to be developed any more anyway.
As far as Gentoo dropping it from portage is concerned, the fix for that
is editing one line of make.conf, which is hardly an onerous task. The
KDE 3.5 ebuilds are still maintained, they've just moved to a different
repository. This really is a non-issue.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A great many people mistake opinions for thoughts. -- Herbert V. Prochnow

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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Stroller]

On 10 Jan 2010, at 19:05, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> ...
>> Most reasonable people
>> agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more
>> months.
>
> Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't define
> reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should still be  
> developed :)

reasonable people = those who agree with me.

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:41:51 +0000, Stroller wrote:

> reasonable people = those who agree with me.

Or pay you lots of money, even if they can't write an email to save their
life ;-)


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Synonym: a word you use when you can't spell the other one.

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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Stroller wrote:
>
> On 10 Jan 2010, at 19:05, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Most reasonable people
>>> agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more
>>> months.
>>
>> Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't define
>> reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should still be 
>> developed :)
>
> reasonable people = those who agree with me.
>
>

Not really, those who said that BEFORE I started having problems at all. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Peter Ruskin]

On Sunday 10 January 2010 23:45:13 Dale wrote:
> Stroller wrote:
> > On 10 Jan 2010, at 19:05, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> Most reasonable people
> >>> agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few
> >>> more months.
> >>
> >> Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't
> >> define reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should
> >> still be developed :)
> >
> > reasonable people = those who agree with me.
>
> Not really, those who said that BEFORE I started having problems
> at all.
>
> Dale
>
Dale, I felt the same as you when they dropped KDE1 for 2, then 
again when they dropped KDE2 for 3 and now that they've dropped 
KDE3.  We get used to a way of working and don't like the change.

Having loved KDE1 I've got used to KDE3, even though some things 
don't work as well as in KDE1 - a lot of things have been included 
that weren't there before (K3B for instance).

I've learnt to be irritated by this but accept it as inevitable.
-- 
Peter
========================================================================
Gentoo Linux: Portage 2.2_rc61			kernel-2.6.32-gentoo-r1
AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4200+		gcc(Gentoo: 4.3.4)
KDE: 3.5.10					Qt: 3.3.8b
========================================================================

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Peter Ruskin wrote:
> On Sunday 10 January 2010 23:45:13 Dale wrote:
>   
>> Stroller wrote:
>>     
>>> On 10 Jan 2010, at 19:05, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>>       
>>>>> ...
>>>>> Most reasonable people
>>>>> agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few
>>>>> more months.
>>>>>           
>>>> Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't
>>>> define reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should
>>>> still be developed :)
>>>>         
>>> reasonable people = those who agree with me.
>>>       
>> Not really, those who said that BEFORE I started having problems
>> at all.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>>     
> Dale, I felt the same as you when they dropped KDE1 for 2, then 
> again when they dropped KDE2 for 3 and now that they've dropped 
> KDE3.  We get used to a way of working and don't like the change.
>
> Having loved KDE1 I've got used to KDE3, even though some things 
> don't work as well as in KDE1 - a lot of things have been included 
> that weren't there before (K3B for instance).
>
> I've learnt to be irritated by this but accept it as inevitable.
>   

Again, I am being misunderstood.  This is not because I don't like KDE 
4.  Even when it first came out and was buggy as heck, I thought it was 
cool.  Heck, I'm looking forward to using KDE 4, whenever it works and 
does what I need a GUI to do.  It's not change that bugs me at all. 

Just to clarify here, I'm not against KDE 4 at all.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 06:20:34 -0600, Dale wrote:
>
>   
>> You say they dropped support.  I call it dropping the ball.  Same thing.
>>     
>
> No it's not. One is a bald statement of fact, the other contains a
> judgement by using negative terminology.
>   

If they didn't drop the ball, then why is Redhat having to pick up that 
ball?  If KDE hadn't dropped the ball, then Redhat wouldn't have to pick 
up that same ball.  Yes, it is negative.  It sure is because it has had 
a negative effect on others, not just me either.

>   
>> As bad as I hate M$, one thing I can say, they have never to my 
>> knowledge dropped support for a OS unless and until the replacement is 
>> fully functional and stable, as finctional and stable as windoze can
>> get anyway.  At least they don't leave people with a unsupported OS
>> while they spend a year or two getting the new one ironed out.  I don't
>> think KDE will take that long but winders does.
>>     
>
> You're comparing apples and oranges. With a paid OS, you are mainly
> paying for support and security updates, which you still get with a paid
> Linux distro.
>   

I realize that M$ is a paid OS but doesn't KDE receive contributions for 
themselves?  Gentoo does?  People donate to Gentoo.  I don't think 
Gentoo would make a decision like this.

>   
>> Most reasonable people
>> agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more
>> months.
>>     
>
> Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't define
> reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should still be developed :)
>   

Well, go join the KDE mailing lists.  It's been said several times over 
there.

>   
>> So, KDE 3 is still not being supported even after all this.  Nothing
>> has changed.  Who would have thunk it?
>>     
>
> Well, very little has changed. Most importantly, KDE 3.5 still works as
> well as it ever did. It was never gong to be developed any more anyway.
> As far as Gentoo dropping it from portage is concerned, the fix for that
> is editing one line of make.conf, which is hardly an onerous task. The
> KDE 3.5 ebuilds are still maintained, they've just moved to a different
> repository. This really is a non-issue.
>
>   

And some of the KDE 3 stuff is having to be removed either for security 
problems or they don't compile.  I subscribe to -dev too.  I see the 
last rites for them.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Neil Bothwick]

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On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:44:21 -0600, Dale wrote:

> > No it's not. One is a bald statement of fact, the other contains a
> > judgement by using negative terminology.

> If they didn't drop the ball,

They didn't, they made a decision. You may not like that decision, but
that does not make it a mistake ("dropped the ball" has a clear
implication of a serious mistake). Look at how many people have
jumped to side with you in this complaint

> then why is Redhat having to pick up that 
> ball?  If KDE hadn't dropped the ball, then Redhat wouldn't have to
> pick up that same ball.

Red Hat are simply doing what they have already been paid to do. Do you
really think they have a serious problem with this? Of course not,
otherwise they would have made sure 3.5 development continued, they have
the clout.

> I realize that M$ is a paid OS but doesn't KDE receive contributions
> for themselves?  Gentoo does?  People donate to Gentoo.  I don't think 
> Gentoo would make a decision like this.

The key word there is "donate". They are not entering into a contract to
supply a specific level of service, they are usually donating for what
they have already received. I know I didn't start donating to Gentoo
until I had been using it a while.

> > Well, very little has changed. Most importantly, KDE 3.5 still works
> > as well as it ever did. It was never gong to be developed any more
> > anyway. As far as Gentoo dropping it from portage is concerned, the
> > fix for that is editing one line of make.conf, which is hardly an
> > onerous task. The KDE 3.5 ebuilds are still maintained, they've just
> > moved to a different repository. This really is a non-issue.

> And some of the KDE 3 stuff is having to be removed either for security 
> problems or they don't compile.  I subscribe to -dev too.  I see the 
> last rites for them.

Removed from where? From the portage tree maybe, but they have been moved
to an overlay so they are still available to Gentoo users.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

If it doesn't fit, you're not using a big enough hammer.

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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:44:21 -0600, Dale wrote:
>
>   
>>> No it's not. One is a bald statement of fact, the other contains a
>>> judgement by using negative terminology.
>>>       
>
>   
>> If they didn't drop the ball,
>>     
>
> They didn't, they made a decision. You may not like that decision, but
> that does not make it a mistake ("dropped the ball" has a clear
> implication of a serious mistake). Look at how many people have
> jumped to side with you in this complaint
>   

Yea, they decided to drop the ball.  WOW !!  I don't NEED anyone on my 
side to state that point.  They did what they did and you can call it 
anything you want.  I call it dropping the ball and it is not going to 
change.  Can you tell that yet?

>   
>> then why is Redhat having to pick up that 
>> ball?  If KDE hadn't dropped the ball, then Redhat wouldn't have to
>> pick up that same ball.
>>     
>
> Red Hat are simply doing what they have already been paid to do. Do you
> really think they have a serious problem with this? Of course not,
> otherwise they would have made sure 3.5 development continued, they have
> the clout.
>
>   
>> I realize that M$ is a paid OS but doesn't KDE receive contributions
>> for themselves?  Gentoo does?  People donate to Gentoo.  I don't think 
>> Gentoo would make a decision like this.
>>     
>
> The key word there is "donate". They are not entering into a contract to
> supply a specific level of service, they are usually donating for what
> they have already received. I know I didn't start donating to Gentoo
> until I had been using it a while.
>
>   
>>> Well, very little has changed. Most importantly, KDE 3.5 still works
>>> as well as it ever did. It was never gong to be developed any more
>>> anyway. As far as Gentoo dropping it from portage is concerned, the
>>> fix for that is editing one line of make.conf, which is hardly an
>>> onerous task. The KDE 3.5 ebuilds are still maintained, they've just
>>> moved to a different repository. This really is a non-issue.
>>>       
>
>   
>> And some of the KDE 3 stuff is having to be removed either for security 
>> problems or they don't compile.  I subscribe to -dev too.  I see the 
>> last rites for them.
>>     
>
> Removed from where? From the portage tree maybe, but they have been moved
> to an overlay so they are still available to Gentoo users.
>
>   

But the packages in the overlay are not supported by KDE either.  Again, 
same thing.  Nothing has changed !

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked

[Dale]

Stroller wrote:
>
> On 6 Jan 2010, at 18:57, Dale wrote:
>> Stroller wrote:
>>> On 5 Jan 2010, at 23:33, Dale wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>> Gentoo wasn't at fault here.  KDE was the one that dropped the 
>>>> ball.  Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho.
>>>
>>> Between KDE & Gentoo, aren't most contributors volunteers? In 
>>> volunteer development it's normal & necessary to focus on the 
>>> features that one needs most. I can really understand KDE's position 
>>> that downstream distros - Red Hat & Canonical both have paid 
>>> developers - can continue maintenance on a codebase that is no 
>>> longer receiving their primary attention.
>>
>> So, KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5?  If KDE is/was maintaining KDE 3.5 
>> then Gentoo would still have it in the tree.  If KDE is not 
>> supporting KDE 3.5 then Gentoo has to drop it, as things break and 
>> develop security issues.  Again, this is not Gentoo's fault for not 
>> developing KDE 3.5, it is KDE that dropped it.  What Redhat does most 
>> likely won't affect what Gentoo does.  I don't use Redhat but I do 
>> use Gentoo.
>
> Where did I say KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5?

That was the question.  Saying that Redhat or someone else is 
maintaining KDE is not the same as KDE maintaining it.

>
> If you want to find "fault", Dale, it's your fault for using free 
> software you're not prepared to maintain. The source code is there - 
> fix any bugs you have problems with.

My fault?  I don't develop any software so is everything else my fault too?


>
>> I'm also pretty sure that Gentoo doesn't do development work on 
>> Gnome, Fluxbox, Apache, MySql and other packages.  They just make 
>> ebuilds and put them in the tree so people can use them.
>
> I'm pretty sure you don't do development work on X, Y or Z, either.
>
> I'm all for attributing blame when devs make decisions I disagree 
> with, but this is simply a matter of limited resources.
>
> I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan 
> [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan - 
> i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they 
> have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4.
>
> Sorry if you don't like it - this wasn't my decision, I'm just trying 
> to explain. Either you or Alan are going to be disappointed that your 
> preferred version doesn't get the attention you would like it to. 
> Sorry it had to be you.
>
> Stroller.
>
>
>
> [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist.
>

And I'm sorry that they made the decision they made too.  Thing about 
software, no one can force someone to use it.  With windoze, you get IE 
whether you like it or not.  You don't really have a *easy* choice 
there.  If I don't like KDE, I can switch to something else.  With 
things brealing like they are, that day may come. 

This point has been discussed a lot on the KDE mailing list.  KDE 
dropped support for KDE 3.5.  It wasn't Gentoo that dropped it.  It 
wasn't any other distro either, it was KDE.   Sorry you want to blame me 
or someone else for their decisions. 

Dale

:-)  :-)